S.Hrg.119-217

1[Senate Hearing 119-217]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                       S. Hrg. 119-21756                      NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND7                              THOMAS BELL8=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               BEFORE THE1314                              COMMITTEE ON15               HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS16                          UNITED STATES SENATE1718                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1920                             FIRST SESSION2122                               __________2324           NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK TO BE INSPECTOR GENERAL,25         U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE, AND THOMAS BELL TO BE26            INSPECTOR GENERAL, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND27                             HUMAN SERVICES2829                               __________3031                           NOVEMBER 19, 20253233        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov3435                       Printed for the use of the36        Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs3738[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3940                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4162-165 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 20264243-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4445            COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS4647                     RAND PAUL, Kentucky, Chairman48RON JOHNSON, Wisconsin               GARY C. PETERS, Michigan49JAMES LANKFORD, Oklahoma             MAGGIE WOOD HASSAN, New Hampshire50RICK SCOTT, Florida                  RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut51JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                JOHN FETTERMAN, Pennsylvania52BERNIE MORENO, Ohio                  ANDY KIM, New Jersey53JONI ERNST, Iowa                     RUBEN GALLEGO, Arizona54ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ELISSA SLOTKIN, Michigan5556                William E. Henderson III, Staff Director57                  Christina N. Salazar, Chief Counsel58                      Andrew J. Hopkins,  Counsel59               Olivia Naughton, Professional Staff Member60               David M. Weinberg, Minority Staff Director61     Christopher J. Mulkins, Minority Director of Homeland Security62              Claudine J. Brenner, Minority Senior Counsel63                     Laura W. Kilbride, Chief Clerk64                   Ashley A. Gonzalez, Records Clerk6566                            C O N T E N T S6768                                 ------69Opening statements:70                                                                   Page71    Senator Paul.................................................     172    Senator Peters...............................................     173    Senator Ernst................................................     374    Senator Hassan...............................................     475    Senator Moody................................................     676    Senator Blumenthal...........................................    1177    Senator Hawley...............................................    1378Prepared statements:79    Senator Peters...............................................    158081                               WITNESSES82                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 20258384John Walk to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Agriculture85    Prepared statement...........................................    1786    Biographical and professional information....................    1987    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    3988    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    4289Thomas Bell to be Inspector General, U.S. Department of Health90  and Human Services91    Prepared statement...........................................    5192    Biographical and professional information....................    5393    Letter from U.S. Office of Government Ethics.................    6494    Responses to post-hearing questions..........................    679596                                APPENDIX9798The picture submitted by Senator Ernst...........................    7399Senator Fetterman's documents submitted to USDA..................    74100101                      NOMINATIONS OF JOHN WALK AND102                              THOMAS BELL103104                              ----------105106                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 2025107108                                     U.S. Senate,109                           Committee on Homeland Security110                                  and Governmental Affairs,111                                                    Washington, DC.112    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m., in113room SD-342, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Rand Paul,114Chair of the Committee, presiding.115    Present: Senators Paul [presiding], Hawley, Ernst, Moody,116Peters, Hassan, and Blumenthal.117118               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PAUL119120    Chairman Paul. The hearing will come to order today. The121Committee meets to consider two nominations. John Walk, is122nominated to be Inspector General (IG) of the U.S. Department123of Agriculture (USDA). Mr. Walk currently works as a senior124advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and previously served125in various roles within the Executive Branch over the last 20126years.127    Thomas March Bell, is nominated to be Inspector General of128the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). Mr.129Bell currently serves as General Counsel (GC) and Senior130Investigative Counsel on the House Committee on Administration.131He previously served in various roles at the Department of132Justice (DOJ), the House of Representatives, and the Senate.133    The written statements have been submitted for the134record.\1\135---------------------------------------------------------------------------136    \1\ The written statements appear in the Appendix on pages 17 and13751.138---------------------------------------------------------------------------139    In the interest of time, I will forego opening remarks.140Senator Peters.141142             OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR PETERS\2\143144    Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to our145nominees, and congratulations on your nominations. Good to see146that you have your family here with you as well.147---------------------------------------------------------------------------148    \2\ The prepared statement of Senator Peters appears in the149Appendix on page 15.150---------------------------------------------------------------------------151    I think it is important for this Committee to hear from and152question nominees at public hearings, and I certainly153appreciate the opportunity to do that today. However, I am154disappointed that we have had almost no opportunity to conduct155public oversight of this administration and its top officials156after they have been confirmed.157    Mr. Chair, since the beginning of this year, you have held158just one hearing, one hearing, where an administration official159testified, and that was more than six months ago. Just to put160in perspective, when I was Chairman during the Biden161administration, we had 10 hearings with administration162officials at this point, in that first year. 1 versus 10.163Year's not over, we could catch up and get to the 10, but164that's a pretty slim agenda.165    You have only held also one legislative markup this year.166This Committee has wide ranging legislative and oversight167responsibilities. There are several bills that Members on both168sides of the aisle want to debate in advance, and there are169numerous oversight issues administration officials need to170answer for.171    Chair Paul, I hope you will call on the leaders of the172Department of Homeland Security (DHS), the Federal Bureau of173Investigation (FBI), and the National Counter-Terrorism Center174(NCTC) to testify before this Committee before the end of the175year. This Committee's annual threats hearing provides a176critical opportunity for the American people to hear from our177national security leaders about wide raging threats that are178currently facing our Nation.179    Now, turning to our nominees. This year, the administration180has launched an unprecedented attack on the independence of181inspector generals. These are nonpartisan watchdogs responsible182for combating waste, fraud, and abuse across the government.183Since taking office, President Trump has fired 19 inspectors184general, and not once did he provide the legally required185notification or explanation to Congress.186    President Trump has also attacked acting IGs. Just two187weeks ago, he fired the acting IG for the Federal Housing188Finance Agency (FHFA) in apparent act of retaliation. As the189administration continues to undermine independent oversight190bodies, it's more important now than ever that we have191qualified nonpartisan individuals to serve in these roles.192    Thomas March Bell has been nominated to serve as the IG of193the Department of Health and Human Services. If confirmed, Mr.194Bell will be tasked with overseeing one of the largest195departments, including $2.3 trillion budget, and over 100196programs. Given Mr. Bell's highly partisan track record, I am197concerned that he will instead use the IGs office to pursue198political aims, attacking women's reproductive rights, for199example.200    What does the record show? Mr. Bell led a partisan201investigation into an alleged sale of fetal tissue for profit,202a claim that has already been thoroughly investigated and203thoroughly debunked. He served as the Chief of Staff of the204Office of Civil Rights at HHS in the first Trump administration205where he limited women's access to reproductive care. Mr. Bell206is anything but a non-partisan.207    Currently, he's investigating a Democratic fundraising208platform, even though its Republican counterpart faces the209exact same issues. He's only focusing on the Democratic210platform. He's plays politics with every oversight role that he211has had.212    Mr. Bell is not unique. I am also concerned about the213independence of President Trump's nominee for IG to the214Department of Agriculture. John Walk is currently serving as215Senior Advisor to the Secretary of Agriculture, and as the216Acting Director of the Office of Tribal Relations. He also217serves as the Acting Deputy Undersecretary for Food, Nutrition218and Consumer Services.219    How can we trust that the Secretary's right-hand man will220provide independent oversight of the very policies and the very221programs that he has implemented? I think the answer is clear;222we can't. I am concerned that instead of acting impartially,223Mr. Walk will cater to the administration.224    Still, I thank the nominees for being here today, and I225look forward to asking and hearing from you questions that are226posed.227    Chairman Paul. It is the practice of the Homeland Security228and Governmental Affairs Committee (HSGAC) to swear and229witnesses with the nominees. Please stand and raise your right230hand. Do you swear that the testimony you will give before this231Committee will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but232the truth, so help you, God?233    [Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]234    Thank you. It's the standard practice of this Committee for235the Chair to ask nominees the following question. Do you agree,236without reservation, to comply with any request or summons, to237appear and testify before any duly constituted Committee of238Congress, if you are confirmed239    [Witnesses answer in the affirmative.]240    At this time, we will proceed to questions, and I am going241to defer my questions now and go to Senator Ernst.242243               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST244245    Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I appreciate246our witnesses being here as well.247    Mr. Bell, I am going to go ahead and start with you. In248Fiscal Year (FY) 2024, Medicare and Medicaid combined to249account for more than 20 percent of all Federal spending. This250means that the HHS Inspector General, who oversees those251programs, has a massive responsibility to ensure Federal252dollars are used appropriately and consistent with253congressional intent.254    There's a lot of room for improvement at HHS on this, Mr.255Bell, and I hope that you will be able to focus your office's256resources on these programs, if confirmed. The HHS IG has 1,188257open recommendations, and that's a lot. I encourage you to take258the lead, if confirmed as the HHS IG, to get those resolved.259    Now, there are a few that caught my attention. The Centers260for Medicare and Medicaid Services (CMS) had not recovered more261than $1 billion in Medicaid overpayments identified by the262Office of Inspector General (OIG) audits. Medicare could have263saved up to $128 million over five years if CMS had implemented264control to address duplicate payments for services.265    Mr. Bell, there are many changes overdue at HHS to lower266costs and improve access to care for Iowans and all Americans.267But, if confirmed, would you commit to addressing existing268recommendations to reduce, and hopefully, eliminate269overpayments and duplicate duplicative payments?270    Mr. Bell. I do.271    Senator Ernst. Thank you. That's an easy one. Mr. Bell, as272HHS IG will be responsible for oversight of the National273Institutes of Health (NIH), NIH conducts and support274significant groundbreaking research to help keep Americans275healthier, but it also conducts and supports research that has276no business getting taxpayer support. This includes studies277answering critical questions such as; are pampered cats less278likely to poop outside the litter box? Do pigeons gamble? Does279this sour cream and onion flavored potato chip look like Elvis?280    All of these studies are required to provide a public price281tag for taxpayers by the Stevens Amendment, but none of them282do. In fact, a 2019 Government Accountability Office (GAO)283report, I requested, found that none, none of HHS's operating284divisions could demonstrate that they had a process to manage285and administer grantees compliance with the Stevens Amendment.286I am sorry, we spent taxpayer dollars on this. It might look287like Elvis, but did we have to spend taxpayer dollars on this?288    From your previous time at HHS, are you aware of other laws289that HHS and/or those who receive grants or funding from HHS290that have blatantly disregarded what you would like to291highlight for this Committee?292    Mr. Bell. Thank you for that question, Senator. I did see a293number of grants and proposals and guidance directions during294the first Trump administration that were obnoxious to295congressionally passed statutes. Some are just the unfortunate296largesse of a bureaucracy with a lot of other people's money to297spend and the ability to, in an unaccountable way, spend that298money outside the brackets of congressional law.299    Senator Ernst. Yes. Thank you. I think that we need to300really pay attention. I have spent a lot of my last 11 years301focusing on waste, fraud, and abuse within our Federal302Government. These are a few of the egregious examples of the303misuse of taxpayer dollars. We need better oversight. We need304compliance with the laws that are already in existence.305    My message today is I do not think anybody agrees we should306be spending money on a potato chip. I just, I do not believe307that. I am sorry, the litter box thing, let some private308company pay for that if they are focused on kitty litter,309whatever it might be. But let's not spend taxpayer dollars on310garbage like this.311    I appreciate that we have additional questions. I will312submit those for the record.313    But I really want to thank you. Let's make sure we are314focused on effective ways that we can use our taxpayer dollars315for the right and intended use.316    Mr. Bell. Gladly.317    Senator Ernst. Thank you very much. Thank you, Mr. Chair.318    Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.319    Senator Peters. Mr. Chair, I defer on my questions and320recognize Senator Hassan.321322              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HASSAN323324    Senator Hassan. Thank you so much, Ranking Member Peters.325Mr. Chair, thank you as well for this hearing. To our326witnesses, congratulations on your nominations, and to your327families as well.328    I want to start with a question to Mr. Walk. It's a simple,329straightforward question that I already asked Mr. Bell at a330previous hearing, so I just want you to answer this one, Mr.331Walk. If directed by the President to take action that would332break the law, would you follow the law or follow the333President's directive?334    Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate that question. Regardless335of who were to ask otherwise, I will faithfully abide by the336United States Constitution and the laws established thereunder.337    Senator Hassan. I appreciate that. To both of you, shortly338after taking office, President Trump illegally fired 17339inspectors general, including the inspectors general for the340Departments of Health and Human Service, and Agriculture, the341same inspectors general that you are now nominated to replace.342In doing so, the President not only broke the law, but he also343purposely removed the people charged with preventing fraud,344waste, and abuse in our government.345    To each of you, we will start with you, Mr. Walk, do you346support the President's firing of the inspector general who347held the position for which you are now nominated?348    Mr. Walk. Senator, the President is entitled to remove349inspector generals. I would just add that our former inspector350general is a plaintiff in a lawsuit naming USDA as a defendant.351As an employee of USDA, I would not be able to answer that.352    Senator Hassan. I am going to go to Mr. Bell for a minute,353and then I want to followup with both of you. Mr. Bell, do you354support the firing of your predecessor? Which, by the way, to355both of you, judge has said clearly broke the plain language of356the law.357    Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator, for that question. I was not358a part of the legal analysis for that decision made by the359President, head of the Executive Branch. I do not know what360justification the lawyers provided, but I support the right of361the head of the Executive Branch to remove any employee.362    Senator Hassan. Let's be clear that a Federal judge looking363at the plain language of the statute, which says that the364President had to give Congress, I think it's 30 days' notice365and a reason, and the President did not do that. The President366broke the law. I would like to remind both of you that, if367confirmed, you will be taking an oath to uphold the law, and368you will be tasked with being a watchdog over others.369    Senator Ernst just made the point that we need people to370comply with the written law laws that Congress writes. You will371be tasked with being a watchdog over others. Do you support the372President breaking the law and illegally firing your373predecessors? Yes or no, Mr. Walk?374    Mr. Walk. Senator, again, that matter is in pending375litigation, and I can't answer.376    Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell.377    Mr. Bell. Senator, I am not a Constitutional separation of378powers expert----379    Senator Hassan. Right. I am going to go on because I do not380have a lot of time, and I still have another couple of381questions. But let's just be very clear, there are statutes382written in the law. The language is quite plain here. You can383read them, and you can decide whether you are going to comply384with them or not.385    To each of you, will you commit to continuing any open386investigations that were initiated by your predecessor or by387your agency's current acting inspector general? Mr. Walk?388    Mr. Walk. Senator, I cannot make the commitment right now,389just because I do not know what those investigations are, but I390would make those kinds of decisions on the merit.391    Senator Hassan. Mr. Bell?392    Mr. Bell. Senator, I looked at the 223 open investigations393on the website of Health and Human Services, and many of them394looked interesting. I will commit, if confirmed, to take a395close look at all of them and review them on their merits.396    Senator Hassan. You can understand how concerned we are397that the President of the United States broke the terms of the398statute, fired independent inspectors general, and are399replacing them with two people who have partisan backgrounds,400and who are not committing to either following the law or401keeping the investigations that nonpartisans had started.402    Mr. Bell, another question for you. When you testified403before the Finance Committee, I asked you about the HHS Office404of the Inspector General's ongoing investigation into for-405profit methadone clinics. As I previously shared with you, the406HHS Office of the Inspector General has found that for-profit407methadone clinics are billing Medicare for healthcare services408that patients never received.409    According to a recent Inspector General report, this scheme410is costing taxpayers hundreds of millions of dollars, and411patients who need addiction treatment are not getting the care412that they were promised. I asked you this question previously,413you did not respond directly, so I am going to ask you again.414As HHS Inspector General, will you continue to investigate415whether opioid treatment are fraudulently billing the Federal416Government for care that they never provided to patients? Yes417or no?418    Mr. Bell. Senator, you and I discussed that in our private419meeting, and I told you then, and I will tell you now, I am420committed to eliminating waste, fraud, and abuse in those421programs. I would be glad to sit down with you.422    Senator Hassan. So, yes or no, will you continue that423investigation?424    Mr. Bell. I will continue to investigate waste, fraud, and425abuse. I am not familiar with the details of that426investigation, but I will become familiar with them, and would427be happy to sit down with you and advance that cause as428appropriate.429    Chairman Paul. Senator Moody.430431               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR MOODY432433    Senator Moody. ff mic.]--make sure that our moneys that434need to go to people who need help and are addicted in the435middle of a health crisis, that the monies are going to them436and not to fraud. I appreciate that topic being brought up, and437I appreciate your commitment to looking into that. So438important.439    Appreciate, Mr. Walk, Mr. Bell, you being here today. I see440that you brought your family members. Thank you for being here441to support them. These hearings are sometimes tough, and it's442nice to know they have loved ones at their back. Thank you for443being here and supporting them in their public service. So444important.445    I want to address my questions specifically to Mr. Bell. I446have had some personal connection to many of the issues that447you will be involved in once you are confirmed. The position448that you have--well, that both of you are undertaking the449position of IG is perhaps one of the most important roles in an450agency.451    The trust the American people put in you to remain452impartial, and dependent, apolitical over an organization's453staff. It's an awesome responsibility, and I believe that you454have the influence, the ability, and certainly, the opportunity455to restore trust in our government. That is so important right456now. I think these positions are some of the most important457nominations right now in our history. Thank you for being here458today.459    One of the things that I am particularly concerned with is460what has happened to unaccompanied alien children (UAC) during461the last administration? As you know, you may have read, I was462very involved in taking the last administration to task. I463thought in many ways they were not only facilitating, but464acting as intermediaries of trafficking organizations, putting465the American government in that position when these children466were smuggled over the border. At the end of the day, however467they got here, whatever means, that they were smuggled across468the border.469    The last administration, the Biden administration, put them470with sponsors, dozens of children, with the same sponsors,471dumped them into unspeakable situations. In our investigation,472we did a grand jury investigation in Florida, they lost track473of tens of thousands of children. They were placed in474situations that the grand jury said it was unspeakable. Some475were sent to strip clubs, dropped off in vacant lots. They were476subject to abuse, put with people they didn't even know. I477could go on and on in terms of the findings of a grand jury.478    Just for the American public to understand, a grand jury is479not a partisan organization. It's made up of people that are480brought in from the community, of all political affiliations,481all walks of life. These are what they found; that the Biden482administration had put children into these situations and they483were just subjected to horrific abuse.484    As Florida's Attorney General (AG), I fought constantly in485court to stop not only the intentional destruction of our486border, but what was happening to our kids as a result. I know,487Mr. Bell, you have a history. You worked at DOJ in the Human488Trafficking Bureau as Chief Counsel for the Select Panel on489Infant Lives. Certainly, I know that you value life.490    I introduced Senate Bill 1997, the Stop GAPS Act, which491would require the Office of Refugee Resettlement (ORR), and HHS492to work with states, with placing children with sponsors.493Because one of the things that we found was that they were not494even telling our Department of Children and Families when they495were bringing these kids in and dumping them off into these496situations. They were clandestine flights in the middle of the497night. They would not give us information. Even we tried to498subpoena them for information. They refused. They would not let499their people talk to us. I mean, think about that. It was500almost as though they were hiding what they were trying to do.501    I want to make sure not only do we address the fact that502they lost track of tens of thousands of children that were503placed in dangerous situation, I hope we can figure out a way504to make sure this never happens again. If it does start505happening, that there's someone that's watching for that, and506can make sure that we are shoring up any safeguards that we507have.508    A former HHS official said that they looked into this and509that person said they not only verified, but corroborated what510was going on in Florida, and they found even more evidence of511fraud with placement and sponsorships of unaccompanied minor512children. They never did anything about it, even after they had513the information.514    It's my hope that we get someone in there that understands515how important it is for oversight, regardless of who's in the516White House, and if a President does something like that again517and causes harm to our children, that someone will step in and518end it. It does not take a State AG to be fighting a battle519from one of our states.520    Mr. Bell, I know you may not have been briefed on all of521the circumstances of the case, but I do I have your commitment522to review this?523    Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Not only do you have my524commitment, but I have been in all of those ORR facilities when525I was a DOJ lawyer in charge of the trafficking program. I have526interviewed 250 trafficking victims. I think somebody made a527decision somewhere, and that decision, let that child go to the528wrong place. I believe what an IG would do is find out who was529in charge of that person, how that decision was made, and take530the types of steps so this never happens again.531    Senator Moody. I have your commitment to review that532process, and make sure that you are holding the agency533accountable to its responsibilities under the law?534    Mr. Bell. Yes, you do.535    Senator Moody. Thank you so much.536    Chairman Paul. Senator Peters.537    Senator Peters. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Bell, in your538opening statement that you provided for the record, you pledge,539``to support the initiatives of President Trump and Secretary540Kennedy.'' Then, you go on to say you are going to support,541``their courageous and innovative change of direction for the542improved healthcare of all Americans.''543    It's unusual to see those kinds of quotes from an IG who is544supposed to be a watchdog, supposed to hold folks accountable.545Traditionally, we do not see opening statements for an IG that546is saying, ``I am excited to be a cheerleader for the547administration. I am going to be there cheering them all, every548step of the way.'' That's not the job of an IG.549    I think you know that the idea is to hold the550administrations accountable. Just as you were asked by the551Senator Moody, to hold administrations accountable, you have to552hold them accountable, not be a cheerleader. What did you mean553by those statements? Tell me that you will be an actual554watchdog, which is the job of the IG.555    Mr. Bell. Thank you for the question, Senator, and thank556you for the opportunity to explain what I mean by initiatives.557I think the administration has several initiatives that any558Congress would get behind, which is; improving the delivery of559healthcare, improving the compliance with Federal statutes to560make Medicare and Medicaid viable for the future by making sure561the recipients are the intended recipients by Congress, to make562sure that agencies don't go astray looking at potato chips and563Elvis Presley.564    I think those initiatives are the good government, good565delivery, waste, fraud, and abuse initiatives that both the566Secretary and the President have announced. I also think the567structure of the IG Statute calls for cooperation and568collaboration with the agency head, calls for being a student569of Congress and congressional intent. It also allows the IG to570initiate investigations or management reviews on his or her own571initiative. Those are the three places, the three buckets that572IG initiatives can fall into.573    Certainly, many of those initiatives come from the574administration, and I hope to be as helpful as I can in rooting575out waste, fraud, and abuse.576    Senator Peters. I think we all agree those are good577initiatives. Those are good initiatives for all of us to be578focused on. But the job of the IG is to say, this initiative is579not doing what it's intended to do. Sometimes that means580calling out things that may be not flattering to an581administration, but that's the job of an IG.582    You talk about one of the powers under the Act is that you583can initiate investigations, which is really critical that you584see something that doesn't seem right, your team sees something585that isn't right, you begin the investigations. A President,586regardless of the party, may not be happy with that initiative587because it could be embarrassing or show a major flaw in what588they are trying to do.589    Then, a President's going to call up an IG and say, ``Hey,590stop this investigation,'' even though you have the power, in591fact, the expectation that you will be the one initiating it.592President Trump calls you and says, ``Stop it.'' Will you tell593him, ``No, the law pretty clearly shows that I can initiate594this investigation, and I believe that it's something that the595taxpayers of the United States need to know what's going on.''596Would you say no to President Trump?597    Mr. Bell. First of all, Senator, I do not have any598experience in my time in the previous administration, nor do I599know anyone who served in that administration or this one,600who's been asked by the President to do anything unethical or601illegal. I do not believe he would do that.602    Second, as you and I discussed yesterday in your office, I603think an IG is supposed to, in the words of Senator Wyden, call604balls and strikes without secretly wearing a jersey for the605pitcher or the batter. I like that characterization, and that's606what I would do, if confirmed607    Senator Peters. Mr. Walk, as a senior advisor to the USDA,608you have been intimately involved in agency operations. As609Inspector General, you would be likely tasked with conducting610oversight of these very issues. But given you are clearly611partisan work, I do not believe we can trust that you are going612to be able to do that in a free, nonpartisan way.613    Will you recuse yourself from any matters on which you614personally worked on at the USDA that would give us more trust615if you would commit right now to recuse yourself from anything616that you worked on at USDA?617    Mr. Walk. Senator, I appreciate the question. Recusals are618very fact-specific. What I will commit to doing is to follow619all Federal laws applicable to Federal employees, all620regulations. I also look to applicable guidance such as from621the Office of Government Ethics (OGE), as well as professional622standards, including for accounting and independence, as well623as for the legal profession.624    I also intend to consult with our IG counsel. We also have625a group, the Office of Compliance and Integrity, whose job is626to make sure that our products are done in a way that meets627professional standards. I will also work with them as well to628make sure there's integrity in our work.629    Senator Peters. Let's hope that's the case. Thank you, Mr.630Chair.631    Chairman Paul. Thank you both for your willingness to632serve. I thought we would take a moment and let you introduce633your family, if you would like. Mr. Walk?634    Mr. Walk. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am grateful to be joined635here by my wife, Ruth, my four daughters; Joanna, Phoebe,636Hannah, and Grace.637    Chairman Paul. Wonderful. Mr. Bell?638    Mr. Bell. Thank you, Senator. Senator, I am joined by my639wife, Maryam Bell, a beacon of good advice, kindness, and640patience. We have both worked here in Washington since 1982,641and she's with me here today.642    Chairman Paul. That's why you have been married so long643because you appreciate that advice, right?644    Mr. Bell. That's correct.645    Chairman Paul. There have been accusations made that you646may be partisan, that you may be people that are just647diabolically going to do Republican things and sort out, search648after Democrats.649    I would like to ask you both individually; will you look at650waste and fraud, and at the parameters of your job, and651administer it independent of whether the targets might be652Republican or Democrat appointees?653    Mr. Walk. Senator, I will.654    Mr. Bell. Yes, Senator, I will.655    Chairman Paul. Is there anything else that either of you656would like to mention about your jobs that we have not gotten657to that you would like to bring forward to the Committee? The658one of the programs that I think will be under Mr. Walk's659purview is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program660(SNAP). The GAO found that 12 percent of the payments from the661SNAP program, about $10 billion, were improper. Do you have any662ideas, Mr. Walk, about how we would go about or how an663Inspector General would go about looking at fraud in the SNAP664program?665    Mr. Walk. Mr. Chair, thank you for that question. As666Ranking Member Peters mentioned, I did serve for four months as667acting Deputy Undersecretary of USDA's Food, Nutrition, and668Consumer Services (FNCS). And SNAP fraud was one of the issues669that I was very much interested in.670    I believe we should make sure that we are continuing to671look at internal controls to be sure that the actions that are672being taken are appropriate for the types of fraud that's673happening today because we see it at all levels. From the674application, to the retail stores, as well as outside folks who675might be skimming. That's been a real problem. We have had a676lot stolen through skimming from international gangs.677    I think we want to make sure that we have the internal678controls in place that we are doing more in terms of our679management evaluations to be sure the States are following the680guidance.681    Mr. Walk. There's also, I think, room for improvements in682terms of technology. I am sure you all know that right now,683SNAP is selling the Electronic Benefit Transfer (EBT) card for684the most case which is essentially a magnetic strip. It's well685behind other payment systems that would have a chip. It's low686hanging fruit, and that does make it easier and more enticing687for folks to try to skim from that.688    I think we do want to look at technology and how we can689improve technology, and how we can use technology to identify690fraud and identify the patterns so that we can go after it. I691am happy to say we have an Office of Analytics and Innovation692at OIG that has been doing some good work in that area. I would693love to explore, we can do even more.694    Finally, I think it's important to increase the695consequences for fraud. I think we can do more in terms of696pursuing Federal criminal prosecutions, and making sure that we697are building the cases for the Department of Justice to go698after those who commit fraud with taxpayer dollars.699    Chairman Paul. Senator Blumenthal.700701            OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR BLUMENTHAL702703    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Welcome to the704Committee. Welcome, to your families, and thank you for your705willing to serve our country as Inspectors General of706Agriculture, and Health and Human Services. You play a critical707role in ensuring the integrity and effectiveness of our708government.709    Mr. Walk, we were talking or you were talking to the710chairman about the SNAP program, and we understand or we have711heard that the Secretary of Agriculture has said that there has712to be reapplication on the part of all current SNAP recipients713now. Is that your understanding?714    Mr. Walk. Senator, I have only read that in the news in the715same way. I have not had any conversations with the Secretary.716    Senator Blumenthal. But you are a senior advisor to her.717    Mr. Walk. That's right.718    Senator Blumenthal. Right. You have not heard anything719about it?720    Mr. Walk. I, generally, would say I know what has been721reported, and I understand that to be accurate.722    Senator Blumenthal. There is no legal requirement that all723of the current SNAP beneficiaries reapply as though they had724not been receiving SNAP benefits, is there?725    Mr. Walk. Senator, my understanding is that there's a726requirement for recertification, but in terms of retaking folks727off unless they reapply, I don't know that there's a728requirement for that.729    Senator Blumenthal. There is none, correct?730    Mr. Walk. Not that I am aware of.731    Senator Blumenthal. OK. The recertification is different732from the application process, correct?733    Mr. Walk. It is.734    Senator Blumenthal. Recertification is done periodically735every six months, depending on what the State decides is736appropriate?737    Mr. Walk. Yes.738    Senator Blumenthal. Will you commit that you will make sure739that all of the 42 million current SNAP recipients and740beneficiaries receive these benefits, if they are entitled to741do so under current law, and that the approval process is done742expeditiously and timely so that they get those benefits as743they need them to put food on the table?744    Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you for the question. As I said, I745did spend four months at FNCS. One of the initiatives I took on746in that short time was to send to the Governors a letter that747we expected timeliness in terms of the 30-day, 7-day period of748completing the approval process for the applications. That is749an important issue to me, even on that side. Of course, as an750IG, my role would not be to be in the policy role, but as IG, I751would have exercise----752    Senator Blumenthal. If there are delays, it would be your753responsibility to assure that the approvals are done in a754timely and important way because people depend on the SNAP755benefits, literally, to feed their children. Correct?756    Mr. Walk. Senator, I agree that the IG should continue to757practice effective oversight over the SNAP application process.758    Senator Blumenthal. If I come to you as a Member of the759Senate, and I say the information available to me is that there760are delays and bureaucratic hangups, you would look into it,761correct?762    Mr. Walk. Senator, that's correct. IG Act says I need to763keep Congress fully and currently informed.764    Senator Blumenthal. I am going to hold you to that765commitment.766    Let me ask you about foodborne illness. There was an767incident involving Boar's Head contamination with listeria that768caused 60 people to be hospitalized, and 10 tragically to lose769their lives. Those deaths never should have happened.770    At the time, I asked the then Inspector General, Phyllis771Fong, to investigate the agency's handling of repeated sanitary772violation that were founded Boar's Head plants. As far as I773know, the investigation is still ongoing. Can you confirm that774fact?775    Mr. Walk. Senator, I do not know, but I can take a look at776that and get back to your staff.777    Senator Blumenthal. If you could, I would appreciate it. If778it is ongoing, will you commit to ensure that the Office of779Inspector General will continue to independently investigate780this incident and hold Boar's head accountable for its role in781the outbreak?782    Mr. Walk. Yes, sir.783    Senator Blumenthal. Let me ask you, Mr. Bell. What784assurance can you give us on this Committee that you will be785independent? I know that you have been asked about this issue786before, that you will be independent of the leadership of the787Department of Health and Human Services, in light of your788statements and your political involvement on some of the issues789that come before the department.790    Mr. Bell. Senator, thank you for that question. Senator, in791graduate school, I read Aristotle's Rhetoric, and I know the792difference between political rhetoric and the type of evidence793that a Federal prosecutor accumulates for litigation.794    All of my work product that is rhetorical or advocacy-795oriented, has been in political campaigns. All of my work796product, either in congressional oversight or while at DOJ, has797followed prosecutorial standards' high quality of evidence,798corroborated evidence, documented evidence. My record speaks799for itself.800    Just because a product offended some interest to some801group, does not mean it did not follow the highest standards of802investigation. I do not believe, on the investigative side, I803have a single partisan product on my record.804    Chairman Paul. Senator time is expired. Senator Hawley.805806              OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR HAWLEY807808    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.809Congratulations to the nominees. Thank you for being here.810    Mr. Walk, let me just start with you. Give us a sense, if811you would, give me a sense of your priorities, if confirmed,812what you think are the major efforts, lines of effort that you813would pursue. Just give me a sense of what you think the lay of814the land is.815    Mr. Walk. Senator, thank you. The top, I would say, three816priorities would be public health and safety, integrity of our817programs, and also, the national security programs.818    Senator Hawley. On the national security programs, what do819you have in mind, in particular?820    Mr. Walk. Senator, you may know that the Secretary has821released a farm security plan that highlights kind of the822linkage between homeland security and agriculture. We have823seen, for example foreign investments in the United States824related to agriculture, both in foreign purchases as well as825companies where we are getting data, it seems shipped to export826it to foreign adversaries. I think we need, as we take actions827on those kinds of things, for the IG to make sure that it's828done in an appropriate way.829    Other issues that I think deserves a look is research830security. I am sure, as you may know, in the last six months831there's been at least two breaches at the University of832Michigan involving biological materials that have a link to833agriculture. One is Fusarium, which the FBI has characterized834as an agroterrorism weapon, and the other is a ringworm, which835can cause pretty serious diseases to livestock. Both were at836the hands of foreign adversaries; I will just say Chinese837nationals.838    There seems to be a pattern there. In other schools as839well, where we need to be looking closer at research security,840particularly when it comes from USDA. Is that money staying841within the United States, or is it somehow supporting foreign842adversaries?843    There's also, I think, an interest in terms of making sure844that we increase our independence so that we are not dependent845on foreign nations for key agricultural inputs such as846fertilizer. I would view all of that within the national847security rubric.848    Senator Hawley. Very good. Mr. Bell, let me just switch to849you, if I could. I want to talk to you for just a second about850rural hospitals, particularly cybersecurity as it relates to851rural hospitals. About 40 percent of the hospitals in my State852are rural. Frequently, these hospitals do not have the budget853to stand up a cybersecurity effort, and as a consequence, they854are frequently the targets of cybersecurity attacks.855    That's one of the reasons that Senator Hassan and I have856introduced a bill called the Rural Hospital Cybersecurity857Enhancement Act, which would direct HHS to create a858comprehensive workforce strategy to train and develop859cybersecurity personnel and professionals to help rural860hospitals in particular.861    Now, I ask you this because if this legislation were to862pass, the Office of Inspector General would be tasked with863auditing how HHS develops and rolls out the cybersecurity864strategy, including verifying that the training goes to the865neediest hospitals, holding grantees accountable for866improvements in defenses.867    If you were confirmed, can you commit to me that you would868prioritize oversight of legislation like the Rural Hospital869Cybersecurity Enhancement as part of HHS's broader rural870hospital or rural health efforts?871    Mr. Bell. Senator Hawley, thank you for the question. I872concur. That's a serious problem. Having spent four years the873National Counterterrorism Center, I am aware of the dangers of874cybersecurity, and I will commit to sit down with you and875figure out how to implement that, if confirmed, and if passed.876But I believe that would be a top priority even if the877legislation doesn't pass.878    Senator Hawley. Very good. Give me a sense of, in just our879few remaining seconds here, what you see as the other top880priorities and lines of effort that, should you be confirmed.881    Mr. Bell. I think 80 percent of the IG staff is dedicated882to Medicare and Medicaid fraud. There's a lot of modernization883that needs to take place. One of the first things I would look884at is what type of payment tracker software is the office using885in order to look across data bases to find fraud? I will bring886to bear my background at the Department of Justice in stopping887criminal conduct.888    It's important to just to rack up more cases or more money,889but to change behavior. Behavior of people doing the fraud890needs to be changed. I would design advice and initiatives to891change the behavior of people committing fraud so they don't892decide not to do so.893    Senator Hawley. Very good. Thank you, Mr. Chair.894    Chairman Paul. Thank you to the nominees for your time895today and your commitment to work with the Committee. The896nominees have filed responses to biographical and financial897questionnaires\1\ and had their financial statements reviewed898by the Office of Government Ethics.\2\ Without objection, this899information will be made part of the hearing record with the900exception of the nominees' financial data, which are on file901with the committee.902---------------------------------------------------------------------------903    \1\ The information for Mr. Walk appears in the Appendix on page90419.905    \2\ The information for Mr. Bell appears in the Appendix on page90653.907---------------------------------------------------------------------------908    Due to the quick turnaround between this hearing and the909markup tomorrow, the hearing record will remain open until 5910p.m. today, November 19th.911    The hearing is adjourned.912    [Whereupon, at 10:46 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]913914                            A P P E N D I X915916                              ----------917918[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]919920                                 [all]