S.Hrg.119-250

1[Senate Hearing 119-250]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                       S. Hrg. 119-25056                  TRUMP'S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING7                   AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING8=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               BEFORE THE1314                      COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS15                          AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP1617                                 OF THE1819                          UNITED STATES SENATE2021                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2223                             FIRST SESSION2425                               __________2627                           NOVEMBER 19, 20252829                               __________3031      Printed for the use of the Committee on Small Business and32                            Entrepreneurship3334[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3536        Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov3738                                __________3940                    U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4162-295                      WASHINGTON : 202642=======================================================================4344            COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS AND ENTREPRENEURSHIP45                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS4647                              ----------4849                        JONI ERNST, Iowa, Chair50            EDWARD J. MARKEY, Massachusetts, Ranking Member51JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho                MARIA CANTWELL, Washington52RAND PAUL, Kentucky                  JEANNE SHAHEEN, New Hampshire53TIM SCOTT, South Carolina            COREY A. BOOKER, New Jersey54TODD YOUNG, Indiana                  CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware55JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii56TED BUDD, North Carolina             JACKY ROSEN, Nevada57JOHN R. CURTIS, Utah                 JOHN W. HICKENLOOPER, Colorado58JAMES C. JUSTICE, West Virginia      ADAM B. SCHIFF, California59JON HUSTED, Ohio6061                Meredith West, Republican Staff Director62                 Sean Moore, Democratic Staff Director6364                           C O N T E N T S6566                              ----------6768                           NOVEMBER 19, 202569                           Opening Statements7071                                                                   Page72Joni Ernst, United States Senator from Iowa......................     17374                                Witness7576The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan, Chief Counsel for Advocacy, U.S.77  Small Business Administration, Washington, DC..................     378    Prepared Statement...........................................     67980              Additional Letters/Statements for the Record8182Unted States Chamber of Commerce83    Letter Dated November 19, 2025...............................    308485                        Questions for the Record8687The Honorable Casey B. Mulligan88    Responses to questions submitted by Ranking Member Markey....    328990TRUMP'S REGULATORY ROLLBACK: SAVING AMERICANS $907 BILLION AND COUNTING9192                              ----------9394                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 20259596                      United States Senate,97                        Committee on Small Business98                                      and Entrepreneurship,99                                                    Washington, DC.100    The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:33 p.m., in101Room 428A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Joni Ernst,102chairwoman of the committee, presiding.103    Present: Senators Ernst [presiding], Young, Hawley, Booker,104and Hirono.105106               OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR ERNST107108    Chair. I call the Committee on Small Business and109Entrepreneurship to order. As I travel from river to river110across Iowa, I hear from small businesses about the consistent111thorn in their side, which is overregulation. In fact, when112asked about federal regulations, Iowans consistently tell me to113bring back a simple message to Washington bureaucrats; stay out114of our way.115    For a small business, regulatory compliance is more than116just a headache. It's wasted time and money they'd rather put117back into their businesses. It forces folks to jump through118hoops designed by people who have never run a payroll, or had119to scramble to keep their doors open and their lights on.120    In Iowa, most entrepreneurs do not have extra folks on hand121dedicated to compliance, or a legal team to comply with122regulations designed for large corporations, not to mention the123endless time and money to fight Uncle Sam if they miss one124small paperwork requirement.125    Unfortunately, during the previous administration, federal126bureaucrats ignored the resources and bandwidth of our small127businesses. During the Biden administration, a record128shattering 107,262 pages of rules were added to the Federal129Register, which cost an estimated $1.8 trillion, with a T,130trillion dollars, and added 256 million hours of paperwork onto131the plates of small business owners.132    During President Biden's last year in office alone, his133administration issued over 3,000 final rules. The regulatory134costs of the Biden administration's reckless rulemaking were135more than 15 times higher than President Trump's first term,136and over three times higher than of Barack Obama's entire137presidency.138    The massive mountain of paperwork hours due to bureaucratic139red tape cuts into small businesses, bottom lines. It slows job140creation and balloons compliance costs. It's simply bad for141business.142    Since January, the Trump administration has published $702143billion in total regulatory cost savings, and cut 72.1 million144hours of paperwork, altogether, with additional deregulatory145efforts. These actions so far could save American taxpayers up146to $907 billion. And I know these savings will only grow as147small businesses recover from the previous administration's148regulatory onslaught. The Trump administration is hard at work149making sure agencies delete, revoke, and rescind the harmful150regulations of previous administrations.151    I've been pleased to work with Administrator Zeldin to help152bring common sense back to the Environmental Protection Agency,153where the Trump EPA has been especially busy. Just this week,154the EPA proposed an updated Waters of the United States, or155WOTUS Rule, to clarify what is covered by WOTUS. This proposed156rule follows my Clean Waters Act, which would codify that157groundwater and waste treatment systems are not navigable158waters, and end this government overreach for our farmers,159landowners, and small businesses.160    I am also glad that the EPA is working to overturn the161agency's harmful Obama-era Endangerment Finding, which allowed162far left administrations to pave the way for EV mandates and163Green New Deal policies. The Trump EPA estimates that the164Endangerment Finding has been used to justify over $1 trillion165in hidden taxes on small businesses and American families.166Revoking that finding would save Americans $54 billion167annually.168    Today, our committee will hear from Chief Counsel for169Advocacy, Dr. Casey Mulligan. In any administration, the Office170of Advocacy is a valuable counterweight to the sprawling171bureaucratic mess that regulations create for small businesses.172    Dr. Mulligan, thank you so much for your steadfast173commitment to identifying regulatory pain points that make it174difficult for small businesses to grow. It has been a personal175mission of mine to end the red tape nightmare that has176tormented our small business owners.177    And earlier this year, I reintroduced the PROVE IT Act. My178bill requires agencies to consider both the direct and indirect179costs for small businesses before finalizing regulations. It180requires Advocacy to formally review federal agency181certification of rules, and prove that the federal government182is fully compliant with existing law, and it gives small183businesses a voice in the rulemaking process to shift the184balance of power away from the administrative state and back185onto the Main Street.186    I also introduced the RED TAPE Act, earlier this year, to187expose the true price tag of Washington's red tape and end188Biden shady circular, A-4 scheme used to conceal the cost of189federal regulations. Just a few weeks later, President Trump190issued Executive Order 14192, which mirrored my legislation and191formally rescinded the Biden-era guidance. This sort of common-192sense legislation along with the deregulatory action of this193administration will truly lead to a golden age for America's194small business.195    I look forward to hearing from Dr. Mulligan today about196further ways we can work together to reduce regulatory burdens197on small firms. Ranking Member Markey is unable to make it198today, so we will go ahead, and we will start then with your199statement. So, you, Dr. Mulligan, are recognized. I'll give you200an introduction first, but then, you will have five minutes for201your opening statements.202    And again, I would like to extend a warm welcome today to203our witness, Dr. Casey Mulligan. I'm thankful that you took the204time out of your busy schedule to be here with us, and I think205it looks like it might be a quick hearing today. We will have206members come and go throughout the day, but the committee is207excited to hear about the work of the Office of Advocacy, and208your work to limit the regulatory burdens on small businesses209since your confirmation.210    In August, Dr. Mulligan was confirmed by the Senate, and211currently serves as the SBA's Chief Counsel for Advocacy. Prior212to this, he was a professor at the University of Chicago,213specializing in labor economics, public policy, and the impacts214of regulation on economic behavior.215    During the first Trump administration, he served as chief216economist for the White House Council of Economic Advisors. Dr.217Mulligan received his Bachelor of Arts from Harvard University,218and earned his Ph.D. in economics from the University of219Chicago.220    I ask unanimous consent that Dr. Mulligan's full statement221be included in the record. And without objection, it is so222ordered. And with that, Dr. Mulligan, you're recognized for223five minutes for your testimony. You may begin.224225STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE CASEY B. MULLIGAN, CHIEF COUNSEL FOR226  ADVOCACY, U.S. SMALL BUSINESS ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC227228    Dr. Mulligan. Chair Ernst, Ranking Member Markey, and229members of the committee, I'm honored to discuss with you the230small business effects of President Trump's regulatory agenda.231My testimony does not necessarily reflect the views of the232administration or of the SBA.233    Before I begin, I would like to thank the committee for234supporting my nomination to this position of Chief Counsel, and235I look forward to working with you to support America's small236businesses.237    The Biden administration finalized 12,000 rules that would238cost almost $6 trillion. Against that backdrop, President Trump239was elected to stop, and I quote him, ``ever expanding morass240of complicated federal regulation.'' He directed agencies to241identify regulations that impose undue burdens on small242businesses.243    Advocacy is well positioned to help agencies follow in that244direction. During my nomination hearing, I committed to245prioritizing meeting small businesses where they are, and I246have done so in person, in Iowa even, together with our247regional advocates who every day gather small business248perspectives nationwide and bring them into policy discussions249here in Washington.250    For years, small businesses burdened by regulations251remained silent, fearing retaliation. Now, they tell Advocacy252that this administration is the first to listen and to253understand. One even said that Advocacy quite literally saved254Christmas, as agencies have been seeking comment on candidates255for deregulation.256    My office has flagged roughly 300 issues, particularly257those giving large organizations an artificial advantage over258small ones. One example is the Outpatient Prospective Payment259System, which pays hospitals more for identical services than260it pays independent physicians.261    The Trump administration has already delivered substantial262regulatory relief for small businesses. For example, the One263Big Beautiful Bill zeroed out the penalty on auto manufacturers264that fail to achieve Biden's impossible fuel economy standards.265With approximately 14 million Schedule C businesses owning266vehicles, that change alone positioned small entities to save267tens of billions of dollars.268    In addition, President Trump and Congress removed 16269regulations this year by way of the Congressional Review Act.270More rule changes are on the way. Among roughly 60 economically271significant rules so far, the largest savings likely come from272the rule that the chair mentioned, which is to stop greenhouse273gas regulations of vehicles. Without that action, vehicle274quality would've fallen and prices risen, costing small275businesses about half a trillion dollars.276    Another rule flagged by small businesses is the proposed277OSHA Heat rule. It would impose sweeping one-size-fits-all, and278often absurd requirements, on workplaces where heat is above279certain temperatures. During a meeting with Advocacy, an280Arizona watermelon farmer explained that the rule would require281shade structures even though harvesting occurs at night when282there's no sun to be shaded.283    In contrast, well-designed deregulation increases284competition and productivity. President Trump's first term was285a case in point. Prescription drug prices fell for the first286time in decades. Deregulation sharply reduced internet access287prices. And that's all about the competition channel that we288see in the Regulatory Flexibility Act.289    While regulators are quick to sanction businesses when they290violate the requirements, they often fail to follow the rules291Congress set. A particularly frequent practice has been to292unlawfully certify important rules as not having a significant293economic impact on a substantial number of small entities. Such294certifications are a pathway to capricious enforcement actions.295    In Orwellian fashion, 65 percent of the major rules from296the Biden administration were nonetheless said to lack297significant effects on small businesses or otherwise not298require any consideration of those effects. Small businesses299were saddled with at least a hundred billion in costs without300any acknowledgement that there were costs.301    President Trump's Restoring Gold Standard Science Executive302Order initiates additional reforms that small entities have303long sought: decisions that rest on transparent data and304reproducible methods. For example, independent fishermen find305the modeling of fisheries by the Biden administration to be306outdated and contrary to the Magnuson-Stevens Act. Among other307things, they point to Georges Bank where closures aimed at308protecting groundfish also stopped scallop harvest, leaving an309estimated $52 million in annual scallops to die off310unharvested.311    Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As Chief312Counsel, I will continue to listen and to work toward better313policy for all small businesses. And I would be happy to answer314questions.315    [The prepared statement of Dr. Mulligan follows.]316    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]317318    Chair. Wonderful. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan. And we'll begin319the questioning round, and I will recognize myself for five320minutes for questions.321    So, Dr. Mulligan, the cost of living and affordability for322Americans, including our small businesses, has been top of mind323for President Trump in the first year of his second term.324Overregulation makes it difficult for small firms to stay in325business, and it also hurts every American family struggling326with the cost of childcare, home heating, and electricity, and327housing affordability.328    With the holidays around the corner, how has deregulation329made everyday items more affordable for our American families?330    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. And the answer331is much anticipated in the Regulatory Flexibility Act. It332points to two issues with regulatory overreach. One, is by333discouraging the smaller companies from entering the market.334There's less competition, and those bigger companies who are335still there are free to charge quite a bit.336    The other channel is productivity. We ended up using more337resources to do the same amount because of the extra paperwork338and extra compliance. So, electricity, for example, we need339more resources to make the same electricity, which means higher340electricity prices for people. We've seen that throughout the341energy area in the last four years. Delivering energy to our342consumers has been quite difficult.343    Chair. Good. And I appreciate that, and the fact that we344are trying to drive those costs down. And it's just common-345sense measures that this administration is taking.346    So, Dr. Mulligan, as your testimony had pointed out, small347businesses across Iowa and America are hurting due to the348compliance costs that Washington bureaucrats don't even think349twice about. For our small business owners, extra paperwork350means less time actually working to grow their businesses.351    And as you know, as I discussed earlier, I've introduced352the PROVE IT Act to make bureaucrats prove that those proposed353rules do not harm small businesses. And it gives Advocacy354further tools to enforce their mission, and to ensure small355businesses are considered in the rulemaking process.356    How would the tools given to your office in the PROVE IT357Act allow you to better interact with your federal partners,358and what legislative authority would you still need?359    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. My experience so360far in the Trump administration, which has just been a few361months, they're extremely supportive of Advocacy and the small362businesses. They're coming to me quite often asking, ``What can363we do to make the rules better for small businesses?''364    But President Trump won't always be our President. And then365what happens after that? And I think legislation would be quite366helpful to stop the practice that we saw so much in the last367four years of saying that a regulation is not meaningful for368the small businesses, when in fact, it's quite meaningful and369can sometimes put them out of business.370    Chair. Yes, we've seen that a lot through the years, and371hopefully, we'll be able to get the PROVE IT Act across the372finish line. That is definitely a goal of mine.373    Recently, the CFPB released a proposed rule regarding small374business lending. And just this week, the EPA released a new375proposed WOTUS rule. How do these new rules compare to their376predecessors in terms of their impact on small businesses?377    Dr. Mulligan. Both of those rules, when they came out378before this administration, they were adding costs, as we heard379in my office about those costs. And the new rules, they're in380the proposed stage. They're largely set to reverse what was381done. And during the process, I've seen in, even in preparing382the proposed rules, there was a lot of listening to small383businesses, and those agencies told us, ``Wow we were glad to384hear from them because we were able to make a better proposed385rule based on the wisdom that they heard from outside the386Beltway.387    Chair. That is good. And I'll just share a very abbreviated388story, but also when it came to farmers under the Biden WOTUS389rule, if a farmer who had not tilled his field for a while, if390he decided to farm that land again, there was additional cost391because that farmer was fined hundreds of thousands of dollars392for disturbing the land that he owned and intended to farm.393    So, not only is there a cost of regulation and adhering to394that regulation, but then there's the government overreach395where you can also be fined for simply doing your normal day-396to-day activities as a small business owner, which are farmers397or small business owners.398    So, my time is expired. We'll come back for additional399questions, but at this point, I will recognize the Senator from400Hawaii, Senator Hirono, for five minutes.401    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Madam Chair. So, you are the402advocate, I suppose, for small businesses, right? You the403counsel. So, as I talk with small businesses in my state, the404biggest thing that they are concerned about right now are the405President's tariffs. But you're not talking about the tariffs406as increasing costs for small businesses in your testimony. Why407not?408    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I think the409tariffs you're referring to came out around April 1st, and----410    Senator Hirono. Well, the President's tariffs, they come411and they go. There's a certain unpredictableness about it, and412that that's another reason that small businesses are concerned,413and that there have already been billions of dollars in414payments that businesses have had to make. And by the way, so415can you answer my question? Why aren't you talking about416tariffs as being a cost driver for small businesses?417    Dr. Mulligan. Advocacy doesn't make the rules about tariffs418or anything else. We have two things we do. Number one, we419listen----420    Senator Hirono. But excuse me, your job is to, did you just421say, listen to small businesses and address their concerns,422their concern being impact of the tariffs?423    Dr. Mulligan. One way. Number two, make sure those people424who do make the policy are aware of those concerns. And my425position is subject to Senate confirmation, even though the426President was incredibly quick to get me nominated, and the427chair of this committee was incredibly quick to get the hearing428going. Somehow, the Senate did not finish the job until well429after the trade policies were initiated. So, the chief counsel430chair at those policy discussions was empty.431    Senator Hirono. You are avoiding answering my question, you432know, that President Trump has imposed tariffs in April. And433then, as I said, they come and go. And my question to you is,434knowing that these tariffs are very detrimental in raising435costs for small businesses, why aren't you talking about436tariffs in your testimony?437    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. My job is to438listen to the small businesses, and to communicate to those who439do make the policies their concerns. Right on the heels of----440    Senator Hirono. And so, did you tell the people who are441making these policy decisions that the tariffs are hurting442small businesses?443    Dr. Mulligan. Let me explain to you how that worked. On the444heels of my confirmation, the government was shut down. So,445while I was able to listen--thank you, Congress, for the446excellent funding you gave my office so we could stay open. I447was listening like crazy, but it was not until the government448reopened.449    And let me tell you, last Wednesday, government was still450closed. The White House called me at 8:00 p.m. and they said,451``Casey, get over here. The government's open tomorrow. The452agencies need to hear what the small businesses are telling453you.''454    And I went there, and I sat close to----455    Senator Hirono. If I look a little frustrated, that's456because I am. You wrote in your book, ``Tariffs are taxes on457small businesses.'' And wouldn't taxes on small businesses hurt458small businesses? So, you don't need to be confirmed, or talk459to them, or whatever. You've written about it. So, why is it460that we can't hear what you're going to do to help small461businesses deal with this on again, off again, tariff462situation.463    By the way, I've talked to small businesses in Hawaii, and464anybody who imports anything, any part of a product that the465Hawaii businesses sell, and that goes for small businesses all466across the country, are having to pay higher costs.467    So, there's a chip maker in Hawaii, for example, he gets468some of his packaging from China. He's had to pay more for his469product, which are chips. So, there is no question that these470tariffs that Trump tariffs are hurting small businesses. And471yet, you're not here to tell us about how that is impacting472small businesses. And not to mention, I would like to ask you,473are tariffs taxes? Yes or no?474    Dr. Mulligan. I just wasn't able to finish answering your475question, which is what am I telling Trump people about the476tariffs.477    Senator Hirono. I'm moving on----478    Dr. Mulligan. I'm in the middle of telling that----479    Senator Hirono. I'm moving on to ask you; are tariffs480taxes?481    Dr. Mulligan. President Trump campaigned on changing the482composition of revenue----483    Senator Hirono. Are tariffs taxes?484    Dr. Mulligan. They're a source of revenue.485    Senator Hirono. Are tariffs taxes? Why aren't you answering486the question? You said so in your book that tariffs are taxes.487    Madam Chair, I don't know why our witness, the single488witness we have, who's supposed to be talking about impacts on489small businesses and how we can be of help, and the biggest490impact that they're having to face right now are the tariffs,491and we have a witness who's not responding to my questions. I492thank you very much.493    Chair. Thank you, Senator. And I would also respond that.494What the Trump administration is doing by releasing some of the495overreach from the federal government on those small496businesses, it has created some equilibrium to any hurt that497small businesses may be feeling.498    So, this is something that we can do for the long run,499though, is undo the pain of the pressure from some of these500regulations that are fine for larger corporations, but501certainly do hurt those smaller businesses. So, I appreciate502that.503    And I would also recommend that the members of the504committee, also, should be the ones advocating for their small505businesses and reaching out. If they feel that there is a506concern from small businesses, they should take that to the507administration. So, I know I certainly do. I have those508conversations with the President and the administration.509    And, Senator Booker, thank you so much. If you would go510ahead and direct your questions to the witness, you are511recognized for five minutes.512    Senator Booker. Chairwoman, I really appreciate you. Thank513you for having this hearing. Gives us an opportunity to have a514conversation.515    Mr. Mulligan, I crisscross my state and really am516interested in the success of small businesses. They are the top517job givers in our state and job providers. It's extraordinary518to see these entrepreneurs who risk their capital, and make519serious investments in not just the success of their520businesses, but as you know, small businesses radiate into our521communities or are part of the fabric of our towns, especially522a state like New Jersey, which is runs on our small towns.523    One of my biggest concerns I hear from my small businesses524right now is just healthcare. They're getting really stuck525pretty badly with healthcare costs. Congress did sweeping cuts526to the federal healthcare funding programs, and has really527given tax cuts not to some of the small businesses, but seen a528lot of them manure to the benefit of the wealthiest there are.529    And so, the CBO, which is the non-partisan Congressional530Budget Office, as you know, estimates the healthcare provisions531in that bill will increase our deficit by $907 billion from5322025 to 2034. And the increases, the number of uninsured533Americans, by 10 million by 2034, and additional 4.2 million534will lose their Marketplace coverage because the law failed to535extend the tax credit enhancements, which lower annual premiums536by more than $700 on average for people who receive them537simultaneously.538    The small business businesses with the Affordable Care Act539are facing premium increases of about, on average, 11 percent540for 2026, according to an analysis of premium preliminary rate541filings from 318 insurers across all 50 states.542    And so, when I just finished crisscrossing my state, having543town halls, I was stunned. I thought we were going to be544talking about other issues, but small business after small545business talked to me about literally the impossibility of546covering healthcare or even imagining trying to cover it for547people to work for.548    I had one woman who has a flower business in my state who549talked about not only will she have to forego health insurance,550her and her husband, in order to keep it for their children,551but having the challenges also of watching their employees who552get it through the Marketplace have to lose their insurance as553well.554    So, as the administration finalizes its regulations for the555Trump tax bill, will you advocate for the small business owners556whose prices are going up due to the administration's economic557policies, or who will actually lose valuable employees, as some558of the owners told me that are going to go to places where559they're going to get health coverage because they can no longer560afford it themselves?561    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. The short answer562is yes. I listen to the small businesses, and then I report563what I hear to those who make the rules, and around healthcare564in this case. And like you, I hear a lot, and my staff hears a565lot about healthcare. We have a letter on our website where566we've gathered together, my count was 97 different healthcare567issues, that we heard about from small businesses. And the cost568of insurance is something that's often cited.569    One thing that's often cited is the pandemic emergency. We570hear in so many different ways that rules that were put in571place during the pandemic are still there and the pandemic572emergency doesn't end. And that really undermines a number of573healthcare----574    Senator Booker. I'm going to interrupt you because I got 90575seconds. So, I get it. As a former mayor, the bureaucracy, the576rules, all of these things, this is where I find a lot of577agreement with my colleagues on the other side of the aisle.578But the biggest issue, and I'm not overstating this at all, was579the staggering premium cost, the staggering cost of people's580healthcare.581    And you said, yes, I'll advocate for that. But I'm582wondering specifically when you're saying on your own website,583I think that you were mentioning you're having people bring584this problem. I'm asking you then, what is the solution? What585will you be specifically advocating for to deal with the number586one issue?587    And it's anecdotal, but that I heard in county after county588of New Jersey, meeting with small business people, thinking I589was going to talk about other issues. But every conversation590centered around this staggering cost of healthcare. And I'm591wondering, you as a person that's in a very important position,592what specifically is the solution, as you see it?593    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. We have 97594specifics in the letter, but if I were to organize them, as we595did in the beginning of that letter, really the Regulatory596Flexibility Act principles apply very well to those 97, which597is there are a lot of regulations that reduce competition in598healthcare.599    And I mentioned in my opening statement things that600increase the cost of healthcare by undermining independent601physicians. And the other aspect is wasted resources. To602deliver the same healthcare, we need more resources because of603all the red tape.604    Senator Booker. And have you thought about the605consequences? Because the immediacy of this, it starts at the606end of the year, what are the consequences going to be for607small businesses that see their costs going up tens of608thousands of dollars; not being able to cover their families,609or facing employees leaving? Have you thought about--because to610me it seems like quite the tsunami that's about to hit small611businesses with their costs going up 5 percent, 10 percent, 15612percent just for health insurance alone.613    Dr. Mulligan. What we have been doing at my office, and614I've been doing myself, is again, listening to what the small615businesses have to say and the problems that they express.616    Senator Booker. But there's no--you have no immediate617solution, in your mind, for in January?618    Dr. Mulligan. Well, I have 97 solutions that I heard from619the small businesses. They're not from Casey Mulligan, they're620from the small businesses. Some of them are immediate and621others may take more time.622    Senator Booker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.623    Chair. Yes, thank you, Senator Booker. And I would say, as624you pointed out, there are steep premium increases. So, just625simply allowing subsidies to continue to flow doesn't bring the626cost of healthcare down. So, I think this is something we all627should be able to work on together; is figure out what is going628on in healthcare that's driving those costs up, and how do we629actually lower the cost of the healthcare so that it's just not630significant premiums.631    So, I hope that we all can come together and figure that632out because, yes, our small businesses need an option that is633affordable and allows easy access to healthcare. So, thank you,634God bless you. And Senator Hawley, you are recognized for five635minutes.636    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Madam Chair. Dr.637Mulligan, thank you for being here. Let me just start, if I638could, by asking a little bit about rural businesses. This is639something that I talked to the administrator about when she was640here for her confirmation hearings.641    I was sort of surprised, fairly stunned actually, to see642these numbers. The Biden administration's SBA spent in Fiscal643Year 2024 alone, out of 103,000 loans, only 12,500 of them went644to rural businesses. 12 percent of the $56 billion in capital645last fiscal year, $6 billion went to rural businesses. That's646less than 11 percent.647    My state is majority rural. We have many, many small648businesses throughout the state that are located in rural649areas. And, obviously, I think a key function of the small650business administration is to protect and promote rural651businesses. So, let me just ask, what office--what role,652rather, does your office, the Office of Advocacy play in653promoting rural small businesses?654    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. And we know from655a lot of our analysis and visiting in person, small businesses656are especially prominent in rural areas. And as I committed in657my nomination hearing and I have done in person, is to go out658and visit, go where they are. Don't ask them to come to659Washington, go visit them.660    We even had an instance a month or two ago where it was661such a remote area that my regional advocate took a mule for662the last couple of miles. And we're really going to great663lengths to hear from--in that case, it was ranchers. And the664ranchers were thrilled that we were listening, and they were665thrilled with the results that we're getting. And we came back666to President Trump's team to start to improve some of that poor667policy in the rural areas.668    Senator Hawley. What steps do you think can Congress take669to ensure SBA prioritizes rural areas and rural businesses? Any670recommendations you might have?671    Dr. Mulligan. Maybe I'd like to meet with my staff and get672back to you. That's a serious ask, and I don't want to have a673glib answer to that. Certainly, there is lots of room because a674lot of our policies have not treated the rural areas well.675    Senator Hawley. Yeah, understood. And I certainly, agree676with that, and I just want to point out that, you know,677programs like the 7(a) Loans, the 504 Certified Development678Company Loans, Disaster Recovery Assistance, these kinds of679programs are absolutely vital to rural America, in general, and680to rural businesses in particular. And they need support and681advocacy from your office and, and across the agency.682    Let me just ask you for a second while I've got you here in683my remaining time. Let's go back to talk a little bit about684SBA's 8(a) Program. You're familiar with the 8(a) Program, Dr.685Mulligan?686    Dr. Mulligan. Kelly Loeffler, that's her area. Now, any687regulation that she puts out because she's subject to the688Regulatory Flexibility Act, I would review, and again, hear689from the small businesses and comment on that. So, I'm familiar690with it from that perspective, but I'm not involved in making691the 8(a) rules.692    Senator Hawley. Well, I guess my question is this. I mean,693the 8(a) has been back in the news recently for reports of all694kinds of corruption and waste of taxpayer dollars. You've got695the most recent example, ATI Government Solutions, which is a696technology services company, apparently that improperly, maybe697fraudulently, claimed ownership Native American ownership to698get 8(a) status, and has been exposed now for acting as a pass-699through organization to take unfair advantage of this program.700    These things are happening. We're seeing these reports701proliferate, and we don't have an Inspector General at SBA. So,702I guess maybe my question should be, given what you just said a703moment ago, I mean, do you think it's time that we get an704Inspector General at SBA so that we're able to address these705allegations or reports of fraud?706    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. I have been707frustrated in that Senate confirmation process on how long it708took. It shouldn't take that long. And you're right, it's709taking way too long for the SBA Inspector General.710    Senator Hawley. Yeah, I think so, too. Thank you, Madam711Chair.712    Chair. Thank you so much. And I'll take five minutes713additional for a few more questions. I really appreciate your714time today, Dr. Mulligan.715    I do want to turn to the great work that you have been716doing at the Office of Advocacy. You and your team have worked717really hard to shed light on a lot of these hard-to-understand718regulations. There's a lot on the books that are small719businesses. They don't have the time to research. They don't720have the time to understand. They don't have additional721personnel to sort through all of that, and it costs them money.722    So, as you've traveled across the country, I know you've723met with a lot of small businesses, you've had discussions with724small firms. What is the top existing regulation that is725currently negatively affecting small businesses that those of726us here in Congress can actually grab a hold of, or even727something that exists that the administration might be able to728grab a hold of, and look at reforming or rolling back?729    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. There are730regulations in both categories, and in fact, working together731like Congress did on the Congressional Review Act, that small732businesses are very thankful for that. That gives them more733durability and more certainty going forward.734    You know, a top one is a little bit hard. We just put on735our website, advocacy.sba.gov, a most wanted list. And there's736not just one on there, but it's a fairly short list. These are737the ones we heard most from the small businesses. And often, in738a dollar sense, they have costs well into the billions, just739for one of the rules.740    The 2024 Cybersecurity Maturity Model Certification is one741that we hear a lot from small businesses that are involved or742hope to be involved in contracting, the 2024 Heat rule,743quarterly payroll filings. And believe it or not, 15 years on,744the Obamacares employer mandate.745    Chair. I wish we had had that question just a little bit746ago. So, yes, the mandate can be very, very costly, but I do747hope that as a Congress or as an administration, that we can748all work together to find some reasonable solutions to help our749small businesses in all of those areas.750    So, following the bureaucratic nightmare created by the751former administration, the Trump administration has been really752working very hard to slash a lot of the regulations and red753tape that are out there that affect small businesses, and make754it cheaper and simpler for these small business owners to755comply with federal regulations.756    And your office has been playing a key role in that fight.757So, Dr. Mulligan, I intend to follow-up with, of course,758perhaps a question for the record. But as the first confirmed759Chief Counsel for Advocacy in a decade, and you noted that the760seat had been vacant, but you are the first one in a decade,761I'm confident that you have many well-informed ideas about how762to strengthen and better that role for the benefit of all of763our small businesses.764    So, if you would, briefly, because I only have a minute and765a half left, just briefly describe what you've thought about766any legislative changes that you would recommend that could be767helpful to us, and in addition to the PROVE IT Act, of course,768because I would like to see that over the finish line. But769things that would allow us to be good champions for our small770businesses.771    Dr. Mulligan. Thank you for your question. One idea in the772spirit of the PROVE IT Act would maybe to require that any773major rule can't be certified without the Chief Counsel's774approval. Let's stop the double-talk, the Orwellian775doublespeak. That would be an idea.776    If you can, take a look at President Trump's budget, it's777an excellent budget. But one of the things that it does is778really support the Office of Advocacy to a much greater degree779than the draft budget that came out of the House. So, if the780Senate could look at that, that would also, I think, be781helpful.782    Chair. Wonderful.783    Dr. Mulligan. And I know the small businesses are very784appreciative of what Advocacy is able to do now that it has a785Senate-confirmed leadership.786    Chair. I think that's great. And again, I'll reform this787question. I'll submit it for a question for the record. And788then, as you're hearing from some of those small businesses,789you said you had 97 different ideas or suggestions that are out790there or topics. Perhaps some of those might make its way here791to the halls of Congress, and we could actually work on some792solutions for those small businesses.793    So, I will stop the questions here, and do appreciate your794time today. I thank you. I know it is a busy day on the Hill,795but thank you for being here. I see that there are no further796questions. So, again, thank you for joining us.797    I ask unanimous consent that the record of today's hearing798remain open for two weeks for members to submit questions,799revise, and extend their remarks, and submit additional800information into the record.801    And without objection, it is so ordered.802    And with that, the Committee on Small Business and803Entrepreneurship stands adjourned. Thank you, Dr. Mulligan.804    [Whereupon, at 3:14 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]805    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]806807                          [all]