“Restoring Law and Order in High-Crime U.S. Cities”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                       RESTORING LAW AND ORDER IN5                         HIGH-CRIME U.S. CITIES67=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT1415                                 OF THE1617                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY1819                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2021                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2223                             FIRST SESSION2425                               __________2627                      WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 19, 20252829                               __________3031                           Serial No. 119-393233                               __________3435         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3637    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov4041                                   _______4243                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE444561-918                   WASHINGTON : 20254647                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4849                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair5051DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking52ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member53TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York54THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California55THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee56CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,57SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia58BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California59LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California60JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington61TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California62BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania63KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado64HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia65LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina66WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont67RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois68GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California69BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida70MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York71ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas72DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas73BRANDON GILL, Texas74MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington7576                                 ------7778                       SUBCOMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT7980                 JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey, Chair8182BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas, Ranking83ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri           Member84DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas                JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida85BRANDON GILL, Texas                  HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,86                                         Georgia8788               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director89                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director9091                            C O N T E N T S9293                              ----------9495                      Wednesday, November 19, 202596                           OPENING STATEMENTS9798                                                                   Page99100The Honorable Jefferson Van Drew, Chair of the Subcommittee on101  Oversight from the State of New Jersey.........................     2102The Honorable Jasmine Crockett, Ranking Member of the103  Subcommittee on Oversight from the State of Texas..............     4104The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on105  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     6106107                               WITNESSES108109Rafael A. Mangual, Nick Ohnell Fellow, Manhattan Institute for110  Policy Research111  Oral Testimony.................................................    13112  Prepared Testimony.............................................    15113Paul C. Mauro, Former Inspector, New York Police Department114  Oral Testimony.................................................    22115  Prepared Testimony.............................................    24116Tina McKinney, Mother of Memphis Police Officer117  Oral Testimony.................................................    28118  Prepared Testimony.............................................    31119Dr. Nancy La Vigne, Dean, Rutgers School of Criminal Justice120  Oral Testimony.................................................    34121  Prepared Testimony.............................................    36122123          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING124125All materials submitted for the record by the Committee on the126  Judiciary are listed below.....................................    56127128An article entitled, ``Portland Police Chief Reveals Troops Tear-129  Gassed Protest by Accident,'' Oct. 29, 2025, New Republic,130  submitted by the Honorable Henry C. ``Hank'' Johnson, Jr., a131  Member of the Subcommittee on Oversight from the State of132  Georgia, for the record133Materials submitted by the Honorable Jasmine Crockett, Ranking134  Member of the Subcommittee on Oversight from the State of135  Texas, for the record136    An article entitled, ``Cities in Blue States Experiencing137        Larger Declines in Gun Violence in 2023,'' Oct. 16, 2023,138        American Progress Action139    An article entitled, ``The Highest Rates of Gun Homicides Are140        in Rural Counties,'' Sept. 26, 2025, American Progress141    An article entitled, ``Trump doesn't have the data to back up142        claims about Washington, D.C.,'' Aug. 12, 2025, MS Now143    An article entitled, ``The 21st Century Red State Murder144        Crisis,'' Feb. 27, 2024, Third Way145    An article entitled, ``Crime in St. Louis: What You Need to146        Know,'' Oct. 14, 2025, Council on Criminal Justice147    An article entitled, ``How Profit Shapes the Bail Bond148        System,'' Sept. 19, 2025, Brennan Center149    An article entitled, ``DOJ cancels $500M in public safety150        grants, cuts officer safety and crime prevention151        programs,'' Aug. 18, 2025, Police1152    An article entitled, ``Public safety groups face an uncertain153        future months after federal grant cuts,'' Nov. 10, 2025,154        NPR155    An article entitled, ``Justice Department Slashes Essential156        Services for Crime Victims,'' Nov. 7, 2025, Brennan157        Center158    An article entitled, ``Trump cuts 69 global programs tackling159        child labor and human trafficking,'' Mar. 27, 2025, The160        Guardian161    An article entitled, ``Trump Defunds Effective Crime-162        Prevention Policies,'' Jul. 22, 2025, Brennan Center163    An article entitled, ``Crime-Prevention Efforts Face Setbacks164        After Federal Cuts,'' Jul. 21, 2025, Brennan Center165    An article entitled, ``Federal Cuts to Behavioral Health Will166        Harm Public Safety,'' Sept. 23, 2025, Brennan Center167    An article entitled, ``The Trump Administration's Budget Will168        Undermine ATF's Efforts to Prevent Violent Crime,'' Jul.169        9, 2025, American Progress170Materials submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member171  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland,172  for the record173    An article entitled, ``Exclusive: Federal drug prosecutions174        fall to lowest level in decades as Trump shifts focus to175        deportations,'' Sept. 29, 2025, Reuters176    An article entitled, ``Justice Department struggles as177        thousands exit--and few are replaced,'' Nov. 10, 2025,178        Washington Post179    An article entitled, ``How Trump Has Exploited Pardons to180        Reward Allies and Supporters--ProPublica,'' Nov. 12,181        2025, ProPublica182    An article entitled, ``ICE Has Diverted Over 25,000 Officers183        from Their Jobs,'' Sept. 3, 2025, CATO184185                       RESTORING LAW AND ORDER IN186                         HIGH-CRIME U.S. CITIES187188                              ----------189190                      Wednesday, November 19, 2025191192                        House of Representatives193194                       Subcommittee on Oversight195196                       Committee on the Judiciary197198                             Washington, DC199200    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p.m., in Room2012141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Jefferson Van202Drew [Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.203    Members present: Representatives Van Drew, Jordan, Moore,204Onder, Schmidt, Gill, Crockett, Raskin, Moskowitz, and Johnson.205    Mr. Van Drew. The Subcommittee will come to order, although206I have to admit you are a pretty orderly crowd, this is very207quiet, everybody is tired out from a long day yesterday, even208Mr. Raskin maybe. That is the quietest I have seen you for a209few minutes. We are going to get you fired up. Thank you for210being here. Without objection the Chair is authorized to211declare a recess at any time.212    We welcome everyone to today's hearing on ``Restoring Law213and Order in High-Crime U.S. Cities.''214    I now recognize the gentleman from Alabama to lead us in215the pledge of allegiance. Then I ask that we remain standing,216that we remain standing for a moment of silence.217    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States218of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one219Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for220all.221    Mr. Van Drew. I will now recognize myself for an opening222statement. Again, I want to welcome everyone here today to223another meeting of the Subcommittee on Oversight. Today we are224going to focus on one very simple truth. We need to restore the225rule of law in America's high-crime cities. Let us be honest226about something from the very start, crime just didn't rise and227come about on its own.228    It happened because leaders chose so, leaders in the229democratic run cities have made political choices. Choices that230put radical ideology before safety, politics before people, and231criminals before the safety of the good people in our232communities. For years these cities have embraced soft on crime233prosecutors, eliminated cash bail, reduced penalties for repeat234offenders.235    They empower criminals, they undermine law enforcement,236they weaken the very fabric that keeps our families safe. Here237is the truth, the simple truth, it is not complicated, it is238just reality. When you reward criminal behavior, you get more239of it, it is that simple. When you take away consequences, you240get chaos. When you weaken the rule of law, you hurt the very241people that you claim to protect.242    In Charlotte, a community that this Committee, many of us243on this Committee, we went to Charlotte, and we saw firsthand244in a field hearing, they tried to quote, ``Re-imagine criminal245justice.'' Do you know what happened when the re-imagining246delivered? Repeat offenders walking the streets over and over,247and over again. Charlotte was quite an experience.248    Now, we have gone as a Full Committee to New York City, we249have gone to Philadelphia, and this Committee actually went to250Charlotte, and we saw the work of the Left-wing magistrates, of251the Left-wing judges, of the Left-wing attorney general, and of252the Left-wing prosecutors, the results, the death, the mayhem,253and the chaos, it is real, it is not funny.254    When we talked to the people in Charlotte, I will never255forget the father of the one young lady, and I believe, and I256don't even have this in front of me, I am digressing for a257minute. This woman was pulled out of her bed, stripped naked,258had to get down on her knees, God knows why, and then the259perpetrator took a shotgun, put it to her chest, and took her260life.261    The father was there, man, I wish each and every one of you262could have seen that father. He was so upset, he was shaking,263he was crying, he was a grown man. Any of us that are parents,264any of us that love anybody in our lives, you can't imagine. I265said at the time, ``I wish I could say to you I know how you266feel, I don't.'' Nobody here, unless you have lost somebody,267and we do have somebody who has, nobody knows how you feel.268    We don't, but you can see it. The guy who did it, the269perpetrator, was charged over forty times and released over,270over, over, and over. I won't do it forty-some times again, it271is sick. People are living with fear instead of freedom. We272remember another case, the murder of Iryna Zarutska, that is273why we went to Charlotte, a murder that should have never274happened.275    A murder committed by a criminal who obviously had deep276seated problems, and was released not one, two, or three times,277but 14 times. Iryna loved America, she sat down in the train,278and he came up behind her, she never met him, never saw him,279didn't even look at him. He violently stabbed her in her neck,280and murdered her in front of everybody on that train.281    She loved America, her family actually had her--she loved282America so much, her family, she was Ukrainian, had her buried283in America because she had such hopes, and such desires, and284such ambitions. The city of Memphis continues to lead the285Nation in violent crime, and not in spite of policy decisions,286but because of them. The district attorney in Shelby County,287backed by George Soros, fact.288    You may not like it, but it is true, it turned cash bail289into a last resort. When you make accountability a last resort,290you make public danger the first result. Again and again291criminals are released, again and again they commit crimes.292Again and again innocent people pay the price over and over. It293isn't justice ladies and gentlemen, it is not compassion, it is294the literal definition of insanity.295    It is failure, it is cruel, it is unfair to law abiding296citizens plain and simple. Los Angeles, another town, you can297name almost every city in America, almost. Career criminals,298rapists, cop killers are given leniency through special299directives that prioritize ideology over good public safety.300    The result is predictable, gangs have been emboldened,301communities have been terrorized, and a once great American302city has been hollowed out again by lawlessness. The city of303Chicago, everybody knows about Chicago, still the murder304capital of America, still drowning in violence and still305doubling down on the same bad ideas as eliminating cash bail,306and making pretrial release a default.307    Just last week a Chicago man known for serially punching308women, who just walks right up to a woman, and it is women309always, walks right up to her, big guy too by the way, big guy,310and just punches her in the face. I don't have any words. He311was arrested and released for the twentieth time. God help you312if you are a woman and you are walking down that street.313    Maybe after he is done you are not even recognizable314anymore. It is nice for you, isn't it nice for your family,315because of the policies we have. If he wasn't released it316wouldn't happen. Twenty times, 20 times back on the street. In317what world are these politicians living in when they design318laws that make it easier for someone like that to be released319over, and over, instead of designing laws that protect the320women that are continually assaulted?321    These are dangerous policies, they are bad policies, and322they have a predictable outcome. They hamper law enforcement,323and they let dangerous people walk our streets. It is that324simple, it really isn't that complicated. In fact, I have325spoken with law enforcement, true story, not only in Charlotte,326but in other areas where we have gone on the road, this327Committee, who have told me that often times before they are328even done writing up the arrest report and somebody has looked329at it.330    Before that even happens, they are watching the person331being released. They are not even done with the report, and332they are already out. It is an upside-down world, it is a333bizarro world, it is a sick world that we live in, and it has334to stop. For four long years the past administration, the335Biden-Harris Administration encouraged this mentality,336encouraged soft on crime policies, encouraged the unraveling of337law and order in what was our beautiful, sparkling cities.338    That changed earlier this year, and I know not everybody is339going to agree with me on this, but it did. Since President340Trump was sworn back into office, he has done what he always341said he would do, there was no surprise here, restore common342sense, restore law and order, restore accountability. In343August, President Trump deployed the National Guard and Federal344agents to support local police right here in Washington, DC.345    People tell me they exaggerate it in Washington, nothing346happens. I just think of the people that I know. I think of the347gentleman from Kansas whose intern was murdered in Washington,348DC. How does his family feel? This young intern comes to D.C.349to learn, and he never leaves because he is killed, he is350murdered. In my office alone, where we have had, just in my351office, numerous people that have been attacked on the streets352in the Nation's capital, in Washington, DC.353    The stories go on and on, we have other Members, Members354that were car jacked, I can go through the list, but I am not355going to do it, it is wrong. You know what? It is not funny356when it happens to you, it is really serious. In August,357President Trump deployed all these folks, and what happens when358you enforce the law? Crimes went down and safety went up.359    Over four thousand arrests, and an 11 percent drop in crime360city wide; 11 percent drop in just a few months. Words don't do361that, ideology doesn't do that, press conferences don't do362that. Action does that, real action, tough action, and363necessary action. Because it worked, because results speak364louder than slogans, other cities, many of them are asking for365the same help.366    In September, National Guard units were deployed to Memphis367and Portland. Plans are underway for Chicago as well, and of368course in many of these cities Democrat officials are fighting369it every step of the way. Fighting safety, fighting370accountability, and fighting success. In some areas where they371are deployed, people who live in the neighborhoods, who live in372the areas, we had some folks even in D.C. said it was the first373time in years that they had walked up and down their streets in374safety.375    In years, they were so happy. We are here today because the376American people do deserve better. They deserve leaders who are377going to protect them and take care of them. They deserve378prosecutors who enforce the law. They deserve cities where379criminals fear consequences, and families feel safe. To our380witnesses, I want to thank you for being here, I know it is381your precious time.382    I thank you for speaking on behalf of communities living383through the nightmare of bad policy and failed leadership. I384even thank the folks that are going to disagree with me. We385look forward to your testimony, thank you.386    I now recognize the Ranking Member, Ms. Crockett.387    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair, and thank you388for calling this hearing. Since January, Donald Trump has used389the full power of the Federal Government to attack Americans in390cities across the country. In Donald Trump's America you are at391increased risk of experiencing militaristic operations in your392home.393    Increased risk of being subject to detainment by masked394thugs and wannabe vigilantes. Increased risk of suffering395injuries due to reckless and illegal acts by rogue Federal396agents. Increased risk of being deported to foreign nations,397even if you are an American citizen. You are at an increased398risk of being targeted by Federal Government for criticizing399the President and his friends.400    Congressional Republicans have completely abandoned their401Article 1 powers and have exchanged their responsibility to402their constituents with fealty to the President. They have403allowed the President to morph Federal agencies into404instruments of autocracy. As a result, the President has been405able to ignore Federal law, disregard court orders, and406implement the largest pay-for-play scheme in American history.407    The White House, well what is left of it anyway, is408literally up for sale. The Federal courts have characterized409this presidency as quote ``lawless.'' In fact, when ruling410against illegal acts committed by the administration, a411Republican appointed Federal judge stated quote,412413        The Court cannot imagine how the public interest might be414        served by permitting Federal officials to flaunt the very laws415        they have sworn to enforce.416417    In a separate case, where the administration was sued for418unlawful acts, the judge, also a Republican appointee, stated419quote,420421        Allowing constitutional rights to be dependent upon the grace422        of the Executive Branch would be a dereliction of duty by this423        third and independent branch of government, and would be424        against the public interest.425426    In another case, the court summed it up perfectly by427declaring quote,428429        As is becoming far too common, we are confronted again with the430        efforts of the Executive Branch to set aside the rule of law in431        pursuit of its own goals.432433Judiciary Committee Republicans have been completely complicit434in this corruption. Since they are so interested in restoring435law and order, I have a couple of suggestions on where they can436start.437    First, this is the President of the United States standing438beside his best friend Jeffrey Epstein. As we all know, Mr.439Epstein is one of the most notorious sexual predators in440American history. For eight weeks the Republicans on this441Committee have chosen to protect these two men instead of442providing justice to Mr. Epstein's victims. Now, the443administration is panicking.444    Second, they campaigned on releasing the Epstein files,445then AG Bondi and associates did a photo op with the files, and446she said, and I quote, ``The Epstein list is on my desk.''447Then, somehow the Epstein list didn't exist. The Epstein files448became a Democratic hoax. Now, the President is supposedly449supportive of releasing the files, even though he is currently450ignoring a Congressional Subpoena to do so.451    Now, the President is simply crashing out, and it is452because he can't seem to explain his special decades long453relationship with one of the most prominent sexual predators in454American history. It is already public that he is in the455Epstein files, but his administration is hiding the context of456his involvement, if any, with Mr. Epstein's horrific crimes.457    Now, this is Ms. Ghislaine Maxwell. Ms. Maxwell, who458obviously helped Jeffrey Epstein traffic more than a thousand459women and girls, well Donald Trump is now giving her special460treatment while she is serving out her prison sentence. He461won't even rule out giving her a pardon or commuting her462sentence. I don't need to explain why partnering with sex463traffickers wouldn't be restoring law and order.464    Now, this is Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem.465Not only has Secretary Noem been busy filming propaganda ads,466but she has also been busy cashing in on millions of taxpayer467dollars. In fact, Secretary Noem has funneled millions of468dollars to a company called the Strategy Group. The Strategy469Group helped Secretary Noem win her campaign to become the470Governor of South Dakota.471    Corey Lewandowski, her top policy advisor, has worked with472the firm. The company's CEO is married to Secretary Noem's473Chief spokesperson, Ms. Tricia McLaughlin. This is what474corruption looks like. They are stealing money from the475American people's pockets and depositing it into their bank476accounts. Now, we move on to yet somebody else. This is the so-477called border czar, Tom Homan.478    Mr. Homan is on tape accepting fifty thousand dollars in479cash bribes stuffed in a brown paper bag from an undercover FBI480agent. Apparently, Mr. Homan accepted these bribes in exchange481for awarding Federal contracts to his friends. Trump's482Department of Justice killed the investigation into Mr. Homan's483crimes, and Congressional Republicans didn't say a mumbling484word.485    Last, this is insurrectionist and Nazi sympathizer Ed486Martin. It appears that Mr. Martin is functioning as the487Associate Deputy Attorney General Pardon Attorney, Director of488the Fake Weapon-ization Working Group, and Special Attorney for489mortgage fraud. All that means is that Mr. Martin is Trump's490lapdog, whom the President sends to initiate lawsuits against491the President's perceived political opponents.492    This is what we call organized crime. They are breaking the493law, often by stealing taxpayer dollars, covering up their494crimes by ending and obstructing investigations, then495prosecuting people who call out for their unlawful behavior.496While the Republicans are encouraging this corruption, they are497abandoning actual victims of violent crime, and ignoring the498Republican led State's 21st Century murder crisis.499    In September's appropriation markup, Congressional500Republicans proposed reducing the FBI staff by thousands of501positions and underfunding the agency by more than $1 billion.502They have proposed slashing resources from the ATF, they have503proposed cutting grants for juvenile justice programs and hate504crimes and eliminating the community violence intervention and505prevention grants.506    They are literally de-funding the police. No matter what507they say at today's hearing, Congressional Republicans have508proven that they are not investing in keeping American509communities safe from violent crime.510    Mr. Chair, I yield back.511    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the Ranking Member. We are fortunate512to have with us the Chair of the Committee of the whole today,513Mr. Jordan, and the Ranking Member, Mr. Raskin. I believe Mr.514Jordan is not going to do an opening at this time.515    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for this important516hearing, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses.517    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Chair. Mr. Raskin?518    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much. I will take mine now, I am519going to try to stay for as much of the hearing as I can, but I520won't be able to do it toward the end. Mr. Chair, thank you521very much, I wanted to just begin by underscoring three things522that you said that I hope people will keep in mind as you hear523my remarks:524525    (1)  When you reward criminal behavior, you get a lot more526of it.527    (2)  It is not funny when it happens to you, and alas, I528have a personal story to tell.529    (3)  Letting criminals off the hook is not compassion, and530it is not justice.531532I want to agree very strongly with those three points that you533just made, Chair Van Drew.534    I want to thank the witnesses for being with us today. Just535before the shutdown this Subcommittee convened a field hearing536in Charlotte to advance the tired, I would say, utterly537exhausted Republican claim that Democrats are somehow soft on538crime. This is an odd proposition to me given that Democratic539led cities today are now driving a historic nationwide decrease540in crime.541    Especially homicide and violent crime following a dramatic542spike in those categories under the first Trump Administration.543One of the North Carolina local news outlet, The News&Observer,544captured the very paradoxical nature of that hearing in an545article titled, ``Republicans are in charge in NC, but somehow546Democrats are to blame for violent crime | Opinion''547    Well, The News&Observer is correct. Republicans from the548White House, to Congress, to the State houses are549systematically undermining public safety in communities across550America with what I would call gangster State policies while551claiming that Democrats are to blame. What is really going on?552Let us start with the administration's first day in office, how553about that?554    On the first day Donald Trump pardoned nearly 1,600 January5556th insurrectionists, people who either pled guilty or were556convicted beyond a reasonable doubt by a jury of their peers557for hundreds and hundreds of crimes, including hundreds who558violently attacked Capitol police officers, Metropolitan Police559Department officers, Montgomery County, Maryland police560officers, police officers from Virginia, and so on.561    With baseball bats, steel pipes, Trump flags, confederate562battle flags, broken furniture, and bear mace into people's563eyes. In the months since, the Department of Justice proceeded564to fire dozens of FBI agents and Federal prosecutors, the most565experienced Federal prosecutors we had, career civil servants566appointed under Republican Presidents and Democratic Presidents567simply because they had worked in the January 6th568investigation.569    Nothing like that has ever happened before in the history570of the Department of Justice, and I hope nothing like that will571ever happen again. These were career civil servants, expert572criminal prosecutors fired because they had prosecuted people573for violently attacking police officers, storming the Capitol574saying they were going to hang Mike Pence to overthrow a575Presidential election, and they got fired because of it.576    A massive violation of civil service, constitutional577rights, and the principles of public safety. One hundred and578forty of our officers were injured, wounded, disfigured,579disabled, hospitalized on that day; one hundred and forty of580them. I wish I could take one hundred and forty minutes and581tell you about each one, but I will tell you about one of them,582I will tell you about Sergeant Gonell.583    Now, Sergeant Gonell has written a book about his584experience, which I recommend highly to all of you. His family585were immigrants to America, he became a citizen as a kid, and586he fell in love with police work. His family took a trip to587Washington, and they visited the Capitol, and he met police588officers here, and he had a dream that he would become a589Capitol police officer one day.590    What do you know, he became a Capitol police officer after591he served in the Army, he went to Iraq, and he went to592Afghanistan. Then he was here on January 6th. He said he faced593violence which he described as medieval in nature, that was far594worse than anything he had seen in combat in Iraq or in595Afghanistan. He fought for hours and hours.596    He was so wounded, they destroyed a rotator cuff, his left597foot was smashed, and destroyed, he couldn't lift his shoulder,598he was beaten in the face and the head. He did everything he599could to try to get back to work, and the force told him he was600no longer physically fit to do it. Forced to retire by the601insurrection Donald Trump incited according to a bipartisan602vote of the House of Representatives.603    Which 57 of the 100 Senators voted to convict him on, the604most widespread bipartisan vote in the history of Presidential605impeachments. He was that wounded, that disfigured, that606incapacitated, he could no longer serve. He had to leave his607dream job and is now living on what a fraction of what his608income was before because of that violence that took place.609    That is just one story. I wish you could know all the610stories. Maybe you know the story of Michael Fanone, he was a611D.C. cop, he wasn't even on duty here, he heard about it, that612the Capitol was under attack on the radio. He immediately drove613to the Capitol, got off several blocks away, ran to the scene614to join the police officers, and he got pulled into the crowd615after fighting for hours, and he had a heart attack.616    He was afraid that he was going to die, and he begged them,617he said, ``I have four daughters, spare my life,'' and his life618was just barely spared. There is supposed to be a plaque up in619the House of Representatives to the officers because of their620indomitable valor and courage that day, but the speaker won't621put that up. They won't give a dollar to the families of any of622these police officers whose lives have been so fundamentally623altered.624    They did sneak a little provision in to give a million625dollars to each Republican Senator who were inconvenienced626because they were treated like other American citizens, and627their phone records were subpoenaed because they were involved628in the conspirators of that attack. That is where the629sympathies run, each of those guys was going to get a million630dollars pay out.631    At least I heard Lindsay Graham say he wanted tens of632millions for what happened to him. What happened to him? Did he633get sprayed in the face with bear mace? Did he have to fight634for hours to protect American democracy? No, his phone records635were subpoenaed, the same way any American's phone records can636be subpoenaed if they are involved in a criminal conspiracy, or637if their name comes up in a criminal investigation.638    If you don't like that, you should support the bill that639Chair Jordan brought before us in markup yesterday, which we640passed unanimously, numerous times, that would save all641Americans from abuse of that process. We have been trying to do642that for nearly a decade I believe. From this Committee, and643the Senate has consistently rejected it, they are not644interested in protecting anybody else's civil liberties.645    They just want their million-dollar jackpot payout. Well,646in any event, so that was the story on January 6th, and this647administration has done everything in its power now to reward648the people who participated in it. Meantime they are firing the649officers, the FBI agents, the prosecutors who tried to650prosecute it. I want to tell you though, a lot of people would651want to sweep the whole thing under the rug, and they think it652is over.653    Crime doesn't really work like that, and criminals don't654work like that. As the good Chair said when he kicked this off,655``if you forgive crime, if you pardon it, if you let it go, you656are going to see more of it.'' Well, let me tell you a little657story about that, because we have got lots of cases of these658pardoned criminals going out and committing other crimes.659    Let me tell you the ones that we have found that have been660committed by people that Donald Trump pardoned on his first day661in office. They have gone on to do terroristic threats, home662invasion, burglary, vandalism, theft, felony assault with a663deadly weapon, discharge of a firearm, manslaughter, drunk664driving, grand theft, aggravated kidnaping, reckless driving,665and reckless homicide.666    Invasion of privacy, conspiracy to commit murder as a hate667crime, possession of child pornography, violation of protective668order, assault, violation of antistalking order, DUI, battery,669felony, malicious bodily injury, rape, forgery, sexual assault,670illegal gun possession, drug possession, and conspiracy to671murder. Who is responsible for all that? These people were672pardoned by Donald Trump, sentences commuted.673    Out on the streets, now these people are doing all that.674Let me tell you about one of them. I told you I was going to675get a little bit personal here, because I take the subject676raised today personally. This guy's name is Taylor Taranto, he677was pardoned after being convicted of multiple crimes on678January 6th, multiple crimes on January 6th. He was rearrested679in 2023 for illegal possession of hundreds of rounds of680ammunition, two guns, and a machete.681    After he was live streaming from the woods near former682President Barack Obama's house. He went there with all the683ammunition and guns, and he threatened to set off a car bomb.684Well, on the way there he showed up at the elementary school685two blocks away from my house, where all three of my kids went686to elementary school. He told listeners that he was at the687elementary school near my house on his live stream.688    He said he was near my house, that is where he was headed689next, and he didn't want to tell anybody where I lived, because690he said I want Raskin all to myself. Fortunately, my wife and691I, and my kids were not at home when he stopped there on his692way down to Barack Obama's house. This is a January 6th693insurrectionist who has been pardoned by Donald Trump.694    You may have read about him recently in the newspaper695because at the sentencing for other crimes too, Department of696Justice lawyers mentioned that he participated in the riots on697January 6th, and his superior officers at the Department of698Justice objected to the fact that these DOJ lawyers had699referred to the January 6th riots and suspended them. Somebody700correct me if I am wrong, were they suspended?701    These lawyers were reprimanded for what they had done, and702they were suspended simply for mentioning the reality that703January 6th had taken place. It is not just January 6th, Trump704recently pardoned crypto executive Changpeng Zhao who had been705sentenced to four months in prison, and ordered to pay one of706the largest corporate penalties in history after pleading707guilty to enabling money laundering through his crypto708exchange.709    According to prosecutors, he aided Hamas, he aided Al710Qaeda, and other terrorist networks, but Donald Trump pardoned711him. He also pardoned Ross Ulbricht, the creator of Silk Road,712an online black market that allowed thousands of drug dealers713to distribute hundreds of kilos of illegal drugs, including714heroin, cocaine, and opioids.715    Take Ghislaine Maxwell, who was transferred from a real716prison to a prison camp after the No. 2 at DOJ went to see her.717On July 22nd, the Democrats on the Oversight Committee moved to718subpoena her, they got Republicans to come over and agree. The719next day she was sent her subpoena, and the next day after720that, July 24th, that is when Todd Blanche went to see her.721    Not to ask about more coconspirators, not to investigate722whether other crimes had been committed. No, he was trying to723find out exactly what she might say about Donald Trump when she724came to Congress. Satisfied with her answers, President Trump,725the great champion of law and order, apparently authorized and726approved her transfer to a prison camp where no sex offender727had ever been sent before, because they are not allowed.728    Because sex offenders like Ghislaine Maxwell are considered729violent offenders. That wasn't it, it wasn't just enough that730she got to cut the line and get there in one or two days when731people are waiting six months, eight months, two years to732transfer after proving they have a compelling reason to do so.733No, she was transferred overnight, she gets there, and then she734gets the superstar Trump Hotel treatment.735    She gets room service in her cell. Ever heard of that736before? Well, she gets meals brought to her, she gets special737exercise privileges there, she gets special visitors that come738whenever she wants them to come, and they are allowed to bring739their computers. They don't even deny that, they just say they740want the people who brought that as whistleblowers to the741Members of this Committee, they want those people punished.742    Her lawyer was bragging about the fact that they were743punished. In other words that they suffered retaliation for744speaking out, when this Committee has always stood up for the745rights of whistleblowers to tell the truth about abuse of law746in America. Well, they have taken a wrecking ball to the747Federal Government's ability to investigate and prosecute748criminals.749    The DOJ is hemorrhaging thousands of lawyers, they are750having a very difficult time recruiting people to this absurd751environment, where the President has taken over all752prosecutorial functions. Now, they are wasting resources just753to follow the political program of Donald Trump. You have seen754how he fired his own U.S. Attorney Mr. Siebert in Virginia,755because he wouldn't bring charges against James Comey.756    That is what Donald Trump wanted. He sacks him, he puts in757another attorney who has never been a prosecutor before, never758been an Assistant U.S. Attorney or anything, she is so759incompetent the judge in the Comey case now says that they are760going to have to throw it out likely, because she messed up the761entire grand jury indictment process. Yet, he continues to go762after his political opponents.763    What a radical distortion of justice that is, and what a764waste of our resources. They are draining resources away from765human sex trafficking, away from child sex exploitation, and766away from drug trafficking to go and either participate in767their anti-immigration campaign, or just to do whatever Donald768Trump wants them to do.769    My friends, this is the record that they want to brag770about? When we have got real Democratic mayors across America771who are, and some Republican mayors, but mostly Democratic772mayors who are actually reducing crime, and fighting crime,773what an outrage this is. One of the other things they did when774they first got in was, they got rid of hundreds of grants that775were being given to local law enforcement, to the police.776    Talk about defunding the police, well they defunded the777police, certainly anything having to do with human sex778trafficking, anything having to do with child-sex exploitation,779they just got rid of it all. Mr. Chair, I am glad you said780exactly what you did when you kicked this off. It is not funny781when it happens to you, and it is not when you have got a782pardoned January 6th person coming to your house with weapons783on his way down to Barack Obama's house with a machete.784    Now, that is not funny. Also, when you reward criminal785behavior, as this administration has done from day one, you are786going to get a lot more of it. They are headed to turn us into787a gangster State. I thank you, and I look forward to hearing788the testimony of the witnesses.789    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the Ranking Member, and later on I am790going to reply to a good number of those issues. I will say one791thing; threats are horrible for all of us. My wife has been792threatened, I have been threatened, my kids, and my grandkids,793it is really awful, it is terrible. Just so you know, I can794relate to what you are saying there.795    My wife was threatened that she would be beaten, they would796throw her on the hood of a car, rape her, murder her, burn the797house down, and kill my children and my grandchildren. That is798not a uniquely Democrat, Republican, conservative, or liberal799issue. The other issue, and I will ask the Committee if we can,800and then we will move on here, the issue at hand is what is801happening on our streets.802    Those subjects you brought up are worthy of debate, and we803can have a separate Committee on all of it, all the things you804spoke about, but I am talking about the average Joe on the805street in their city where they want to live their life with806their children, and their grandchildren as well. It is a little807bit different than where we went with that, which was highly808political.809    Worthy of discussion, but not really what this hearing is810about.811    Mr. Raskin. Those are all average crimes that happen every812day on our streets, including my street.813    Mr. Van Drew. OK, I am not going to do this because I don't814want to--even mine, with the threatening--815    Mr. Raskin. You cannot separate one crime from another.816    Mr. Van Drew. There are people that are in prison because817of some of the things they were going to do and got caught, to818me, but nevertheless, it is not an average crime. I am a Member819of Congress, it is different. I am talking about just the guy820that comes home from work and is walking on the street, and he821stops by the grocery store, and he gets killed.822    It is a different thing, just the average day to day thing.823We will talk about it more, I appreciate you, Mr. Raskin. With824that being said, all other opening statements will be included825in the record, and we are going to introduce today's witnesses,826finally your time.827    We will start with Mr. Rafael Mangual. Mr. Mangual is a828Fellow at the Manhattan Institute where his research focuses on829criminal justice and policing. He is the author of Criminal830Injustice and serves on the New York State Advisory Committee831of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights.832    Mr. Paul C. Mauro is a former law enforcement officer833having served for 23 years with the New York Police Department.834During his tenure he served as the Commanding Officer of the835NYPD's legal bureau, and as the Executive Officer for836operations and analysis in NYPD's intelligence bureau. Thank837you for your service and thank you for being here.838    Ms. Tina McKinney, this is the hardest one, these are839always hard, is the mother of Officer Joseph McKinney, who was840a Memphis Police Officer killed in the line of duty on April84112, 2024. The suspect was out on bond, and I want everybody to842listen to this one paragraph. The suspect was out on bond from843an arrest the previous month on charges of possession of844modified semi-automatic weapons and grand larceny.845    Everybody heard that. I am sorry, I have got no words, I am846sure everybody tells you the same thing. Thank you, thank you847for being here, and trying to help other people in the future.848    Nancy La Vigne, did I pronounce it correctly? Good. Dr.849LaVigne is the Dean of the Rutgers School of Criminal Justice,850where her work focuses on applying data and research to851criminal justice policy.852    She previously served in the Department of Justice during853the Biden Administration. We thank you for being here, I am a854Rutgers grad, I went in predental, premedical, so I went to855Rutgers, we may disagree on issues, but Rutgers is a good856school. We are going to begin by swearing you in. Would you857please rise and raise your right hand?858    Do you swear under penalty of perjury the testimony you are859about to give is true and correct to the best of your860knowledge, information, and belief so help you God? Let the861record reflect that the witnesses have answered in the862affirmative, and thank you, and please be seated. Please know863that your written testimony will be entered into the record in864its entirety.865    Accordingly, we do ask that you do summarize and complete866your summary of your testimony in five minutes. Mr. Mangual, we867will start with you.868869                 STATEMENT OF RAFAEL A. MANGUAL870871    Mr. Mangual. Well, thank you all so much for the872opportunity to offer remarks on the all-important topic of873public safety in America's cities, which is an issue that I874have spent the last decade working on. I would like to begin by875suggesting that in public debates over questions of safety, far876too much weight is put on aggregate crime measures that often877fail to fully capture or accurately describe the risk of878criminal victimization faced by America's urban residents.879    We often talk about crime in national, statewide, or880citywide terms. It is an understandable colloquialism that I am881sure I have been guilty of too. Whether a city's crime levels882are up or down, while important, can mask some important883realities. In my home city of New York for example, data from8842010, 2015, and 2020 illustrate that approximately 50 percent885of the city's reported crime occurs on just four percent of the886city's street segments.887    The experiences of residents living on block clusters where888so much of a given city's crime concentrates are radically889different from those living in the neighborhoods with very890little crime. To paint the picture a little more vividly,891consider that year residents of Chicago's 19th District, which892I used to call home, experienced a homicide rate of just 2.3893per 100,000.894    In the 6th District by contrast, the homicide rate was 73.4895per 100,000, almost 32 times greater. I make this point for a896couple of reasons, but one is to just illustrate that even in897cities that have experienced recent declines in serious crime,898there remain microgeographic pockets where serious violence899continues to occur at levels that we should all find900unacceptable.901    Should therefore be working to alleviate with urgency902irrespective of aggregate crime declines at the citywide level.903The fact remains that in too many city neighborhoods criminal904violence is a serious problem. That problem is one that is too905often characterized by a particular type of failure.906    Which is the failure to incapacitate violent criminal907offenders who have thoroughly demonstrated through repeated908criminal conduct that they have no desire to play by society's909rules. A few numbers to consider, in Chicago on average a910shooting or homicide suspect is arrested nearly 12 times. In911Oakland, homicide victims and suspects alike have an average of912ten prior arrests.913    In Baltimore the number is nine. Right here in Washington,914DC, it is eleven. These numbers are bad enough in the abstract,915but they take on a more urgent character when they are916illustrated by specific cases. Because of the work I do, I am917often sent stories of heinous and tragic crimes committed by918offenders who had no business being out on the street.919    We already heard about one such case in the case of Iryna920Zarutska in Charlotte, North Carolina, but I want you all to921consider another case out of Charlotte, which has not gotten922nearly enough attention, which is the shooting death of Jayce923Edwards, who was just four years old. According to news924reports, one of the four men arrested in that case had925previously been charged in nearly a dozen car thefts.926    He was arrested again just days before the shooting with a927firearm. Unbelievably to the uninitiated, he was allowed to928post bond and was released yet again. A second suspect in that929case had racked up 38 charges, and had multiple prior930incarcerations for serious felonies including firearms and931other violent charges. These examples all elicit the same932question, why?933    Why were these offenders out? The answer in many cases is934that somewhere down the line policymakers made a choice. They935made a choice to pursue decarceration for its own sake because936they were convinced that doing so was the best way to serve937justice. The good news is that none of those decisions are938written in stone. Our leaders can and must make different939choices.940    In recent years, we have seen some encouraging examples of941Federal, State, and local leaders doing just that. In the State942of Tennessee for example, law makers have, thanks to the943leadership of Tennessee House Speaker Cameron Sexton, passed944legislation to amend their State's constitution so that judges945there can have the right to detain dangerous criminal946defendants in all cases.947    They also passed a truth in sentencing law to ensure948offenders serve the majority of their sentences before they can949be released. Last year, lawmakers in Louisiana took a similar950step with their own truth in sentencing measure, much to the951chagrin of criminal justice reform advocates, in addition to an952effort to eliminate discretionary parole.953    Of course, President Trump's Administration through954Executive Orders and actions related to policing, and955enforcement initiatives like the Memphis Safe Task Force, and956Project Safe Neighborhoods in Chicago, the latter of which has957led to a nearly 300 percent increase in Federal gun958prosecutions just through the end of October.959    Now, there remains a lot of work to be done. I would like960to close with the suggestion that I hope many of you will reach961out to discuss further at a future date. Which is that Congress962should consider an omnibus crime bill along the lines of what963was done in 1994.964    This time with a particular focus on police recruitment and965retention, funding the acquisition of force multiplying966technology, incentivizing better data collection, and967incentivizing the adoption of stronger penalties for habitual968offenders. Thank you once again for the invitation to address969this body and contribute to these important discussions. I look970forward to answering any of your questions.971    [The prepared statement of Mr. Mangual follows:]972973    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]974975    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Mangual. Mr. Mauro, you may976begin.977978                   STATEMENT OF PAUL C. MAURO979980    Mr. Mauro. Chair, Ranking Members, and the Members of the981Committee, thank you for the opportunity to appear before you982today. My name is Paul Mauro, I served 26 years with the NYPD,983including many years in counterterrorism following 9/11. I984retired four years ago; I am now a practicing attorney. My985perspective is shaped by decades on the street, and doing986investigations, and by my concern for the city that I still987call home.988    New York's recent criminal justice system and its history989is one of collapse, renewal, and now sadly decline. The city's990recovery from the dark days of the 1970s and 1980s and began in991the 1990s under mayors who prioritized policing and992accountability, and was aided by the bipartisan 1994 Crime993Bill, co-authored by then Senator Joe Biden, and signed by994President Clinton.995    The broken windows policing complemented that effort by996addressing a low-level disorder before it grew into something997worse. Enforcement was often limited to summonses, not jail,998and was responsive to community complaints. Neighborhoods999revived, and the entire city became a model of recovery. After1000the new challenges of 9/11, the NYPD created a world class1001counter-terrorism apparatus without sacrificing safety.1002    Despite expectations post 9/11, crime continued to fall1003under Mayor Bloomberg, and Commissioner Ray Kelly. Later,1004during Commissioner William Bratton's tenure of 2014-2016,1005indexed crime fell another nine percent, while the jail1006population dropped 18 percent. Proof that safety and reduced1007incarceration can exist.1008    In fact, over 20 years at that point, crime had fallen 761009percent, while the jail population was cut in half. We had hit1010the sweet spot. Over the ensuing years however, that success1011has eroded. Reforms such as no cash bail, and other changes1012have coincided with visible disorder. Disorderly conduct1013summonses for instance, the linchpin of quality-of-life1014enforcement fell 91 percent after 2015.1015    Recruitment and retention are in crisis, though murders and1016shootings are down this year, major felonies are up 16 percent10172010 in New York, and low-level recidivism is universal. Behind1018those figures lies a deeper problem, the Federal National Crime1019Victimization Survey shows that the vast majority of crime now1020goes unreported nationwide. Street conditions, and my own1021experience in New York bear this out.1022    For instance, homeless encampments are referred to agencies1023with no enforcement power. Shops close after repeated1024harassment and burglaries go unreported. Officers are not lazy,1025they are overwhelmed. A small fraction of offenders and1026chronically mentally ill drive much of this disorder. Research1027suggests that incarcerating or housing just a small fraction of1028the worst offenders would visibly improve conditions.1029    An uncomfortable truth is that women are disproportionately1030targeted by the mentally ill. Likewise, The New York Times1031found that 327 repeat offenders account for roughly one-third1032of all New York shoplifting arrests. Stores write off these1033losses as shrinkage and pass the cost onto consumers. In New1034York we now lock up our toothpaste, not our perpetrators.1035    At the same time, and most alarmingly, the city is closing1036the Ryker's Island Jail, and replacing it with four dispersed1037jails that cut the prisoner bed count by a full two-thirds.1038This is a guaranteed recipe for failure. Our newly elected1039Mayor Zohran Momdani has famously pledged to lean into all1040these reforms, reducing police head count, replacing officers1041with social workers, and eliminating key police units.1042    Nationwide the role of the National Guard remains widely1043misunderstood. In New York since 9/11 the Guard has manned New1044York City transit hubs without incident. Governor Kathy1045Hochul's deployment of 1,000 troops to the subways has been1046touted by her for providing a 42 percent drop in subway crime.1047Note that the Guard does not answer 911 calls, they provide1048deterrence through visibility.1049    New York has long been a testing ground for criminal1050justice police, we know what works if we are allowed to do it.1051Federal Government can help with funding, certainly, it can1052even condition funding on best practices by local agencies.1053Most importantly, Federal leaders can help change the1054narrative. When leaders support police, that message is felt on1055the street.1056    When they vilify police, that message is felt even more. Is1057it any wonder that since 2019 assaults on NYPD officers are up105863 percent? The first duty of government is to protect its1059citizens; public safety should never be subordinated to1060politics. Every community, whatever its politics, wants the1061same thing, to live safely, and with dignity.1062    Those who secure that safety deserve our support, not our1063scorn. I thank you all for allowing me the privilege of1064speaking with you here today.1065    [The prepared statement of Mr. Mauro follows:]10661067    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]10681069    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Mr. Mauro. Ms. McKinney, you may1070begin.10711072                   STATEMENT OF TINA McKINNEY10731074    Ms. McKinney. Chair and the Members of the Committee, thank1075you for allowing me to speak today. My name is Tina McKinney,1076and I am the mother of Memphis police officer Joseph McKinney,1077lovingly known as Rusty. Rusty died in the line of duty on1078April 12, 2024, in Memphis, Tennessee. He was just 26 years1079old. He was a devoted father who had just purchased wedding1080rings and was eager to build a life with his fiancee.1081    Rusty lived a lifetime only few get to have. He had a large1082family who adored him, and he loved to travel. If you said you1083wanted to go anywhere, he was there with you, he wanted to go,1084and his eagerness was undeniable. He was a good kid, the kind1085every parent hoped for. He lived a full life with an eagerness1086to help, and it lasted his entire short life, way too short.1087    Rusty was an Eagle Scout, a distinction that takes years of1088dedication and discipline in service. From camping in every1089kind of Memphis Mid-South weather to countless hours of1090community service. He lived the values of scouting every day,1091and it shaped the man he became. Deep down he always wanted to1092be a police officer. When he was five or six, he would dress up1093as an officer for Halloween, and ride on his electric police1094motorcycle all through the yard.1095    When he was older looking for a career, he would chat with1096officers, who encouraged him to join the police department. It1097is hard to write about him, I feel cheated, and I feel robbed1098of all the what-could-have-beens, and the life he could have1099had. He was loved by so many, and after the news of his death1100stories poured in from friends, coworkers, and strangers.1101    A young man shared how Rusty made him feel welcome when he1102had started his first job. He was nervous, but Rusty took him1103in and made him feel a part of the team. That kindness Rusty1104showed him, stayed with him. A coworker of mine told me her1105daughter had received a ticket from Rusty when he was on the1106force and shared how she remembered him as kind and respectful.1107    The one thing everyone said from the hundreds who attended1108his service was that Rusty and our family did not deserve this1109tragedy. They were right, this wasn't just a tragedy, it was a1110failure of leadership, and a failure of accountability. My son1111was a police officer, but he was also a victim. A victim of1112repeat offenders, one who was a juvenile, and a victim of1113failed policies, and failed leaders.1114    God gives us a life, but he doesn't promise how long it1115will last, or how good it will be. Instead, he gives us1116choices, choices that shape the life we live, and Rusty chose1117service, compassion, and integrity. Those two criminals1118repeatedly chose violence and a life of crime. Those young men1119were out on bond despite being arrested just weeks earlier for1120serious crimes, and they are responsible for my son's death1121through their actions and by their choices they made.1122    Dangerous repeat offenders are not isolated incidents for1123the city of Memphis. It is a result of years of political1124neglect, soft on crime policies, and a justice system that has1125prioritized leniency over accountability, and judges who1126release high-risk offenders, and district attorneys who start1127pilot programs to identify cases to downgrade to misdemeanors.1128    Management and long delays with issuing car tags made it1129impossible for officers to enforce basic traffic laws,1130contributing to a breakdown in public safety. Memphis has also1131been losing officers, not just to violence, but to attrition.1132They have faced reduced pay, loss of benefits, and lack of1133support from city leaders. The Memphis Police Department has1134struggled to retain talent while crime surged.1135    While our leaders debate referendums and engage in1136political optics, family like mine pay the ultimate price.1137Public officials entrusted with leadership who have repeatedly1138failed to uphold the standards of their position, raising1139serious concerns about judgment and accountability, some1140propose defunding law enforcement, and introduce proposals to1141cut police budgets.1142    Those proposals were widely criticized and widely rejected.1143The school board has mismanaged children's futures in Memphis.1144Former Shelby County school superintendent Dr. Marie Faegins1145stated many members of the board chose chaos over children, and1146I believe this statement to be true. Student's poor performance1147is beyond poor; our school system ranks in the bottom 501148percent statewide.1149    Students lack basic math skills and reading skills, despite1150spending exorbitant amounts of money per student, the district1151has failed to deliver results. Millions in State and Federal1152funds have been spent, yet proficiency in some areas has1153dropped as low as five percent. Instead of investing in proven1154solutions, the board has spent millions on studies and1155administrative overhead.1156    Educational failures are not separate from the rising1157crime. They are deeply connected. A weak education system feeds1158weak communities, and weak communities suffer the consequences1159of crime and strain police.1160    Accountability must be more than a word. It must be1161standard. It must apply to individuals who commit violent acts1162and to those leaders whose decisions enable those acts.1163    Without accountability, justice is incomplete and safety is1164compromised. Police officers take the job knowing the worst may1165happen, but it is up to those in the position of power to1166protect them.1167    They ensure they have the best environment to work in, and1168to know that the system will work together to make a safe place1169for all to call home.1170    My son went to work, as do all officers, with a sense of1171hope and optimism that they can make a difference, and a hope1172of coming home to the families who love them.1173    I urge you to listen to the voices of grieving families1174like mine. Rusty deserved better. Memphis deserves better.1175Rusty had a job with MPD, but he was so much more to everyone1176in his personal life.1177    We all lost so much when he was taken for us. My son died.1178He gave his last breath saving a fellow officer and pushing her1179to the ground when the bullets started to fly.1180    He gave his life serving a city that tragically did not1181protect him in return. By continually allowing repeat offenders1182to be released and to commit more crimes, crime has taken a1183toll on me.1184    I would not travel to Memphis unless it was necessary and1185many individuals felt the same. With the increased State1186troopers and Federal agencies embedded in Memphis after the1187death of my son, Memphis is beginning to change.1188    People are venturing out, and people are trying to enjoy1189the city again. They are thanking city officials for allowing1190those agencies to come in.1191    Rusty died a hero. He protected others as he died. He gave1192his life. It is time for our leaders to protect those who1193remain.1194    Bring the National Guard and keep the Federal agencies who1195are involved in the city until criminals realize crime doesn't1196pay any more in Memphis and playtime is over.1197    Thank you for allowing me to speak on behalf of my son, and1198the family, and our community in Memphis.1199    [The prepared statement of Ms. McKinney follows:]12001201    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]12021203    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you for your courage. You represent1204many, many other people. I see his handsome face there. It is1205unfortunately now the story of most major American cities.1206    Dr. La Vigne, you may begin.12071208                STATEMENT OF DR. NANCY LA VIGNE12091210    Dr. La Vigne. Chair Van Drew, Ranking Member Crockett, Mr.1211Raskin, the Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the1212opportunity to speak with you today. Let's start with some1213facts.1214    Violent crime is down to prepandemic levels or even lower1215in most every U.S. city. That started around 2022, not when Mr.1216Trump started office in January of this year.1217    Nationwide, violent crime is down 50 percent from its peak1218in 1991. Despite these gains, I am not going to sit here and1219say, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.1220    That is because every bit of violent crime is unacceptable.1221Every life lost is a tragedy. We can do more, and we should do1222more.1223    With that said, the reductions in the violent crime rate1224that I just quoted to you; those are real statistics. We are1225clearly doing something right.1226    To that I say, if it is working, don't break it. That is1227precisely what this Administration is doing. It is breaking it1228by deploying armed guards to cities uninvited by local leaders,1229by canceling grants that support violent crime interventions,1230by cutting support for crime victims services, and by reducing1231investments in research on what works to promote safety.1232    Now, to be clear, I am certain that sending in the Guard1233will suppress crime in the short run. The research is strong1234that increasing police presence can reduce crime.1235    Much depends on how they are trained, how they are1236deployed, and how they interact with community members. Sending1237in a surge of National Guards and other Federal officers into1238cities can keep residents away for fear. It can curb tourism.1239It can hurt local economies.1240    The Guard lacks local expertise. They don't know the1241stakeholders, the players. They don't know how to resolve1242issues peacefully because of that lack of local knowledge.1243    That can erode trust even after they pull out, because1244residents don't distinguish between one type of law enforcement1245officer and another. Guards aren't trained for civilian1246policing and things like deescalation and crisis intervention,1247a type of training matters.1248    Is there a better role for law enforcement, Federal law1249enforcement in dealing with local crime issues? Absolutely.1250    One example is DOJ's Project Safe Neighborhoods (PSN). It1251has been in operation since 2001. It has been going strong1252across various Administrations.1253    It is a partnership between U.S. Attorneys' offices and the1254local police. It is a proven success. It has been rigorously1255evaluated. It can result in reduced violence.1256    This Administration is breaking that too. Advising U.S.1257Attorneys to divert resources away from PSN to, you guessed it,1258immigration prosecutions.1259    Aside from Federal law enforcement presence or partnership,1260what are other ways to reduce violence? I will lift up one1261example from my home city of Newark, New Jersey.1262    The Newark Community Street Team is a community-based1263violence intervention effort. It was launched in 2015. Since1264then, homicides have been down 65 percent in the city of1265Newark.1266    Federal funding for the Newark Community Street Team was1267cut this year, along with dozens of other grants for community1268violence intervention programs.1269    Whatever we do to address issues of violent crime, we1270should make sure that it is a wise use of taxpayer dollars.1271Research and evaluation can help us to discern that return on1272investment, what works, what doesn't, what should be continued,1273and what should be disbanded.1274    The Department of Justice canceled dozens of grants to1275evaluate crime reduction programs. It also canceled1276translational efforts like crime solutions.gov, which helps1277make findings from research accessible to local leaders,1278practitioners, police chiefs, so that they can implement1279evidence-based practices.1280    What about the victims? Services can help them heal, but1281they are also essential in preventing revictimization.1282    If Congress truly cares about violent crime, they care1283about victims. Right? This Administration terminated hundreds1284of millions of dollars in victim service grants.1285    In closing, safer communities come from evidence. They come1286from partnership. They come from respect for local expertise.1287    Instead of letting this Administration break strategies1288that work, Congress should restore and invest in them. Thank1289you.1290    [The prepared statement of Dr. La Vigne follows:]12911292    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]12931294    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you for your testimony. We will now1295begin with questions. We will proceed under the five-minute1296rule.1297    I am going to recognize the gentleman from the great State1298of Alabama.1299    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have seen crime rise in1300Democrat ran cities, including in my home State of Alabama in1301the two largest Democrat ran cities, that would be Birmingham1302and Montgomery.1303    Senator Tuberville has noted that he would be supportive of1304the National Guard coming in to help local police departments1305in Alabama with rising crime.1306    Mr. Mangual, have we seen an improvement enough that would1307warrant the National Guard coming to Alabama, from these other1308cities where we have, obviously like D.C., where we have1309deployed the Guard?1310    Mr. Mangual. Yes. I do think that there is some pretty1311significant evidence that the deployment of the National Guard,1312whether it is in Washington, DC, or in some of the other places1313where it has been deployed, has had a beneficial deterrent1314effect through the presence, right? The problem to the extent1315that there is one is that those benefits are going to be1316limited.1317    It is best that those kinds of efforts are coupled with1318other Federal agency deployments and prioritizations of things1319like 922(g) cases, which are gun prosecutions, gang1320prosecutions, et cetera.1321    Mr. Moore. Yes. So far, since the operation started in1322D.C., we have had nearly 3,100 arrests and 300 firearms seized.1323    What does that tell you about the depth of unchecked1324criminal activity prior to the National Guard being here?1325    Mr. Mangual. It tells you that Washington, DC, like many1326other American cities, has been for a long time under policed,1327right?1328    When you have additional resources coming in, and they are1329able to make significant numbers of arrests, that tells you1330that the city did not have what it needed beforehand. That1331should be a lesson to the leaders to add to the foresight.1332    Mr. Moore. If the resources for policing are there, Mr.1333Mauro, you may want to touch on this too as well, these soft on1334crime DAs, when they just turn the folks back out, doesn't that1335go against just certainly the morale in the police departments?1336    If we have politicians criticizing police officers when we1337are soft on them after they go through the trouble to make an1338arrest, to try to get somebody, to put them behind the bars,1339and then we turn them right back out. In the case of Ms.1340McKinney, we have officers and individuals attacked again.1341    Does it, Mr. Mauro, doesn't that hurt the morale? Even if1342we have the policing resources, if we turn the people right1343back out, isn't that going to create a problem for society?1344    Mr. Mauro. Well, of course it does, sir. The result can be,1345in some instances, therefore a lack of enforcement.1346    If you make, let's say, an arrest for a low-level offense1347that should go downtown, so to speak, and when you get there,1348it is DP'ed, as they call it, declined prosecution. When that1349happens regularly, you begin to understand that it is not what1350the system you work for wants.1351    I am very cognizantly choosing that example, because it is1352one of the things that led to the beginning of the disorder in1353our subways.1354    The lifeblood of New York City is the subway system. That1355is the city's circulatory system. Jumping fares, as they call1356it, fair beating, is one of the ways that the entire policing1357revolution that we had in the 1990s, it was really founded on1358that as one of the principal enforcement mechanisms.1359    Not everybody who jumps the turnstile is a member of a1360robbery crew, certainly. If you are a member of a robbery crew,1361you are not paying the fare.1362    When somebody jumps the turnstile and you give them just a1363summons, and it turns out that they have two robbery warrants1364on them, well now you have the ability to take them off the1365street.1366    That has a cascading effect on the safety in the system.1367That was really one of the broken windows linchpins.1368    Ultimately what happens, is when that is no longer1369enforced, and I should mention that the District Attorneys in1370New York, we have five, at least four, literally don't enforce1371that crime. It is on, right in the Day One, the infamous Day1372One memo of Alvin Bragg, saying, we are not going to enforce1373that anymore.1374    Now, I would argue that this is not even within his power.1375That is the legislature that has to repeal an entire statute.1376Nobody has challenged that and so on it goes.1377    Consequently, people who would have been kept off that1378system, now feel with impunity to jump the turnstile, go in1379through the out door, they don't pay, and now they have easy1380access to a place that they can commit crimes, get out of there1381quickly, et cetera.1382    In addition to morale, it leads to a lack of enforcement.1383    Mr. Moore. They basically just lose concern about it. It is1384that broken window principle, if you don't stop them there,1385then the crime just escalates in certainly, individuals who are1386jumping the turnstiles.1387    You said Governor Hochul, Kathy Hochul, right, had moved1388the Guard into the subways. They were just there as a presence1389to deter, right? That is kind of, they are not really arresting1390people?1391    Mr. Mauro. No, no. They don't follow the 9/11 system. It is1392not like they are getting deployed to go on ``particular police1393jobs.''1394    They are there for what is called their omnipresence. You1395see it all over New York, it has been underway, as I mentioned,1396since13979/11.1398    That is 25 years without incident. You see them in the1399omnibus, the Oculus, excuse me, downtown, which is a big1400transportation hub. You will see them in Penn Station, in Grand1401Central. They just stand there.1402    Because they are there, it takes weight off of the police,1403and it sends the message that this area is observed. Very1404often, perpetrators will move on.1405    Mr. Moore. Thank you. I am out of time. I will yield back,1406Mr. Chair.1407    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentleman.1408    Ms. Crockett. Mr. Chair, I have a couple of UCs before we1409move on.1410    Mr. Van Drew. OK.1411    Ms. Crockett. First, I have a unanimous consent request. I1412ask unanimous consent to enter into the record a report written1413by Chandler Hall, titled, ``Cities in Blue States Experiencing1414Larger Declines in Gun Violence in 2023.''1415    Then, I have another one. It is by Chandler Hall again,1416titled, ``The Highest Rates of Gun Homicides Are in Rural1417Counties.''1418    My next one is titled, written by Jeff Asher, titled,1419``Trump Doesn't Have the Data to Back Up His Claims About1420Washington, DC.''1421    My final one is written by Kiley Murdock and Jim Kessler,1422titled, ``The 21st Century Red State Murder Crisis.''1423    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection.1424    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much.1425    Mr. Van Drew. I now recognize the gentleman from Georgia.1426    Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am deeply disappointed1427about this hearing. It was billed as an exploration of the1428Trump-Vance Administration restoring law and order through the1429deployment of the military onto the streets of America.1430    That is what we were here to talk about, and I haven't1431heard one Republican witness talk about that. How the military,1432the National Guard, has decreased crime on the streets of1433America. That is what this is supposed to be about.1434    Somebody has lied, just like Trump lied. He lied about1435releasing the Epstein files. He lied about putting America1436first. He lied about lowering costs on day one.1437    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Johnson, if I can just interrupt for a1438minute. All our witnesses are kind enough to be here. They are1439not here as a Republican or Democrat.1440    Their own views are them on all, I will say for all of1441them. Not one of them is intentionally lying and they swore an1442oath.1443    I appreciate your comments. Please move on.1444    Mr. Johnson. Well, no, no. I am not casting aspersions at1445the witnesses. I am saying that this hearing was billed as1446something that it has not turned out to be.1447    We are supposed to be talking about how the deployment of1448the military onto the streets of America, has lessened crime.1449    Mr. Van Drew. This is your chance, sir. This is your1450chance.1451    Mr. Johnson. It is a fair argument for me to make that we1452have misled the public, just like Donald Trump has misled the1453public.1454    The public, the American Joe, or the average Joe on the1455street, is feeling like a sucker now, because Trump is telling1456them that, look, don't believe your lying eyes.1457    Prices are down. They know that price of groceries is up.1458The price of energy is up. The price of their healthcare is up.1459Donald Trump is telling them, believe what I say. They are1460getting tired of that.1461    They looked at this drama with the Epstein files, they saw1462him go from doing everything he could to prevent the release,1463into flipping at the last minute, so to save the little face1464that he still has, because he knew he was going to lose that1465vote and he lost it.1466    Every single Member of Congress, except for one, voted to1467release the Epstein files. The American people are really1468confused at this point.1469    They see MAGA Republicans in the House carrying President1470Trump's water. They are not happy about that. Fortunately, they1471have a shining light to look at. Her name is Marjorie Taylor1472Green.1473    She has started to move away from the deception, the lies,1474deceit, and the violence. Because of that, she is now being1475subjected to violence.1476    Let me ask you a question, Mr. Mangual, although you have1477been to law school, your training has been as a corporate1478communications guy with the International Trademark1479Association.1480    You are here to talk about how the military has made our1481streets more safe. I will ask you this question. Law1482enforcement is a noble profession, isn't it?1483    Mr. Mangual. It is.1484    Mr. Johnson. It has special education and certification.1485Isn't that correct?1486    Mr. Mangual. It does.1487    Mr. Johnson. Specialized skills that you get from learning1488to become a police officer, like Ms. McKinney's son, and I am1489so saddened by your loss. My condolences to you, Ms. McKinney.1490    Law enforcement officers, isn't it true, Mr. Mauro, are1491trained professionals?1492    Mr. Mauro. Yes, sir.1493    Mr. Johnson. They take a different oath than does the1494military. Isn't that correct?1495    Mr. Mauro. Well, I am not familiar with the military oath,1496but, I know--1497    Mr. Johnson. That is because you never served in the1498military. The military is trained to combat, to be in combat1499situations. Whereas, law enforcement officers are trained to1500enforce the law.1501    Isn't it a fact, Dr. La Vigne, that if we have people who1502are trained in combat, deployed to the streets of America, that1503we are doing law enforcement a disservice, because law1504enforcement depends on the respect and support of the people1505who they serve?1506    Isn't it true that by deploying the military to the streets1507we are hurting law enforcement?1508    Dr. La Vigne. It can be demoralizing to local law1509enforcement to have the National Guard come in, as if they1510aren't capable of doing their jobs.1511    You are right, they are trained specifically to be policing1512in a civilian context.1513    Mr. Johnson. They come in and break things up and kill1514people. That is what the military does, right?1515    Dr. La Vigne. I don't know about that.1516    Mr. Johnson. Well, that is not what police officers are1517trained to do.1518    Dr. La Vigne. Correct.1519    Mr. Johnson. With that, I will yield back.1520    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentleman.1521    Mr. Johnson. Before I do though, let me offer, for1522unanimous consent, an article entitled, ``Portland Police Chief1523Reveals Troops Tear Gassed Protest by Accident.'' That is in1524The New Republic on October 29th. Without objection.1525    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection.1526    Mr. Johnson. Thank you. I yield back.1527    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentleman. I now recognize Dr.1528Onder from the great State of Missouri.1529    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Unfortunately, I am all1530too familiar with high crime cities. A part of my district is1531on the outskirts of St. Louis, Missouri, a city that has1532consistently had one of the highest homicide rates in the1533country.1534    In fact, I myself, all the way back in 2005, was a victim1535of a violent crime. I was robbed at gunpoint. Unfortunately,1536the crime rate in that region has only gotten worse.1537    Just this last year, Missouri's Attorney General testified1538before this Committee that the State had to remove a St. Louis1539prosecutor for prioritizing politically motivated cases over1540violent offenders, including murderers.1541    The families hardest hit are in these neighborhoods, these1542inner city neighborhoods, are the ones that pay the price. For1543years, failed leadership in neglected public safety of left1544entire communities trapped in fear.1545    In St. Louis, Democrat policies have worsened a crisis that1546was undermining law enforcement and refusing to hold violent1547criminals accountable.1548    The primary responsibility of government has always been to1549protect citizens by upholding law and order. When local1550officials abandon that duty, communities crumble. When1551prosecutors refuse to prosecute, crime grows.1552    When politics outweigh public cities, the results are the1553experience of St. Louis, Chicago, New York City, Charlotte, and1554others. Record violence, collapsing trust in institutions, and1555violent neighborhoods.1556    These policies trap generations, they crush hope, and we1557have to break that pattern. Real compassion means telling young1558people that we believe that we can do better, and that choices1559have consequences.1560    Accountability is not punishment for its own sake. It is a1561path to safer streets, stronger families, and communities that1562can thrive.1563    Mr. Mangual, is there a way that Congress can hold local1564officials accountable for refusing to enforce the law and1565refusing Federal assistance during periods of sustained violent1566crime?1567    Mr. Mangual. The best thing that Congress can do in this1568way, to hold these local officials accountable, is to condition1569more of the funds that so many American cities depend on best1570practices with respect to law enforcement and prosecution.1571    Mr. Onder. Yes. That makes sense. Not only in New York City1572do you lock up the toothpaste, not the perpetrators, but that1573my staff tells me that in the Navy Yard area of Washington, DC,1574they lock up the toothpaste at the CVS.1575    Ms. McKinney, just a quick question for you. I am so sorry1576for the loss of your brave and heroic son. You mentioned one of1577the murders was out on a bond.1578    Do you know, was he out on a cash bond, or was he just1579released without, essentially without any financial incentive1580to return?1581    Ms. McKinney. Sir, I am really not sure.1582    Mr. Onder. OK. That is a no. That is all right.1583    Ms. McKinney. Yes.1584    Mr. Onder. It is very common these days. One of these soft-1585on-crime policies that so many times is instituted in some of1586these soft-on-crime cities and States, has been the end of what1587is called cash bail.1588    Which is to say no bail at all. Just letting the suspects,1589letting them go free.1590    Mr. Mauro, you are with the Manhattan or Mangual, you are1591with Manhattan Institute.1592    Mr. Mangual. Yes.1593    Mr. Onder. Shortly after I was elected to the Missouri1594Senate in August 2014, of course, very famously, the Michael1595Brown death and the subsequent riots, led to just some very1596unfortunate, the very unfortunate phenomenon, which Heather1597MacDonald at Manhattan Institute--1598    Mr. Mangual. The Ferguson Effect, yes.1599    Mr. Onder. Kind of popularized the Ferguson Effect. Explain1600that, and what, how can we turn things around?1601    It is the opposite of what Mr. Mauro describes with broken1602windows policing, enforcing fairs, and so on.1603    Mr. Mangual. That is exactly right. The Ferguson Effect1604basically describes a phenomenon in which, in the wake of a1605viral police incident that was controversial, so much public1606scrutiny and vitriol was lobbed at the institutions of law1607enforcement that it basically discouraged line officers from1608being proactive.1609    One of the best sort of academic demonstrations of this was1610done in a study by Roland Fryer and Tanaya Devi out of Harvard,1611where they looked at five American cities over a two-year1612period, and looked at which ones were targeted by the Federal1613Government under either President Barack Obama, most of them1614under President Barack Obama, for civil rights enforcement1615actions in the wake of viral police use of force incidents.1616    What they found was a massive increase in felony offenses,1617homicide offenses specifically. The mechanism that they believe1618most explained that increase in crime was a pullback on the1619part of line officers with respect to proactiveness.1620    Mr. Onder. Every law enforcement fears being the next1621Darren Wilson. Thank you. I yield back.1622    Ms. Crockett. Mr. Chair, before--1623    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentleman. Yes?1624    Ms. Crockett. Sorry, before you go on, I have two UC1625requests. First, from the Council on Criminal Justice, which1626states, examining trends over a longer period, St. Louis has1627had a far larger reduction in some violent and property crimes1628than other large American cities.1629    The homicide rate in St. Louis was 40 percent lower in the1630first half of this year than it wasn't the first half of the1631first year of the pandemic.1632    Second, I ask unanimous consent for an article that was1633written by Stephanie Wylie, titled, ``How Profit Shapes the1634Bail Bond System,'' published by the Brennan Center.''1635    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection.1636    Ms. Crockett. Thank you.1637    Mr. Van Drew. I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr.1638Raskin, from the great State of Maryland.1639    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. McKinney, I want to1640extend to you my sympathy for your horrible loss. As a father1641who lost a son who was a year younger than your son, I cannot1642know your pain or your experience, but I know you live with it1643every day. My heart goes out to you.1644    Ms. McKinney and Mr. Mauro, in fact, all the witnesses have1645underscored the importance, as Mr. Mauro put it, of voicing1646support for the police.1647    We voted to create a plaque. It wasn't a memorial fund for1648anyone. It wasn't money to go to families. At least it was a1649plaque to honor the work of the officers who defended us with1650their lives.1651    It reads, on behalf of a grateful Congress, this plaque1652honors the extraordinary individuals who bravely protected and1653defended this symbol of democracy on January 6, 2021. Their1654heroism will never be forgotten.1655    It was supposed to have been put up in the Capitol two1656years ago. It has still not been put up. I thought I would1657start with an easy one, just a yes or no question.1658    Would you agree that Speaker Johnson should put this plaque1659up as provided for in Federal law? Dr. La Vigne, I can start1660with you.1661    Dr. La Vigne. Yes.1662    Mr. Raskin. Ms. McKinney?1663    Ms. McKinney. Yes.1664    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Mauro?1665    Mr. Mauro. Yes.1666    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Mangual?1667    Mr. Mangual. Yes.1668    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much. I want to go to, just1669quickly back to the question of the pardons, because it seems1670like our soft on crime President is so beholden to the MAGA1671militia that he has actually pardoned some of the people he1672already pardoned, because they have gotten back in trouble.1673    As I was reading the long list of crimes they have already1674engaged in, he recently pardoned a woman who was separately1675convicted of threatening to shoot FBI agents who were1676investigating a tip that she may have been at the Capitol, and1677she threatened to shoot them.1678    Then, he pardoned another insurrectionist from Kentucky,1679who had been arrested for illegally possessing six firearms and16804,800 rounds of ammunition.1681    Just a question to you, Dr. La Vigne, what message is sent1682by these repeated pardons for people who just participated in1683the insurrection surrounding the attempted overthrow of the16842020 Presidential Election?1685    Dr. La Vigne. I think the best way to answer that is to1686quote Chair Van Drew who said in his opening remarks, ``when1687you take away consequences, you get chaos.''1688    Mr. Raskin. OK. Mr. Mauro, let me come back to you, because1689you invoked the broken windows thesis by James Q. Wilson. It1690piqued my ears. He was my professor when I was in school.1691    I was always--I wrote a paper about it. I was always1692fascinated by it. Also, we had a lot of broken windows here on1693January 6, 2021, in addition to a lot of broken bones.1694    I wonder, I read that long list, I won't go through the1695whole thing again, but of crimes that have been committed since1696the pardons took place by people who were pardoned, including1697terroristic threats, home invasion, burglary, vandalism, and1698theft. Not offenses directed at politicians.1699    I am afraid the Chair misunderstood my point. He seemed to1700think that I was talking about these crimes being directed just1701at politicians.1702    I am talking about these common crimes that were committed1703by people who were pardoned. People going out and robbing other1704people's houses, having nothing to do with politics.1705    My question for you on broken windows, are you surprised1706that people who were given the remarkable, extraordinary,1707almost unheard of privilege of a Presidential Pardon, quickly1708going back out on the road and doing things like burglary,1709vandalism, theft, home invasion, and terroristic threats?1710    What does that say in the context of broken windows?1711    Mr. Mauro. All I would say relative to January 6th, is that1712if we are going to speak about the conditions in our cities, I1713am hearing a great deal about January 6th, I'm hearing a1714tremendous amount about Donald Trump.1715    That is not what you feel on the street. January 6th,1716nobody supports. Certainly, I don't. Nobody wants to see people1717in Viking horns walking around inside our Capitol, behaving1718that way. I can't.1719    Mr. Raskin. OK. I am reclaiming my time.1720    Mr. Mauro. I am not making excuse--1721    Mr. Raskin. I am sorry.1722    Mr. Mauro. You said--1723    Mr. Raskin. I am sorry, sir. Did you read James Q. Wilson1724about the broken windows hypothesis, which is that to apply1725it--1726    Mr. Mauro. Well, we have got to apply it--1727    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, will you direct him to respond and1728stop talking.1729    Mr. Mauro. I am trying to tell my--1730    Mr. Raskin. I have reclaimed my time. You might not1731understand the rules.1732    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Mauro, Mr. Mauro. Actually, your thought1733was one of the better thoughts I have heard all day today. I1734appreciate it, but it's the gentleman's time, the Ranking1735Member's time. Thank you.1736    Mr. Raskin. Please restore my time if you would. Let me1737come to you, Dr. La Vigne.1738    Mr. Van Drew. We will restore your time.1739    Mr. Raskin. The broken windows hypothesis is that if you1740allow people to get away with a crime at a certain level, and1741you send them the message, it is OK, then they will go out and1742commit other crimes and more serious crimes.1743    That is what we are seeing here. What do you think, and I1744know you haven't written a paper on this, because I looked at1745your extensive scholarship.1746    What do you think about the proposition, well, that there1747are political crimes and we can forgive all those, and those1748people will not take it as a permission slip to go out and1749commit other crimes. Does that seem right?1750    Dr. La Vigne. No, sir. It doesn't. Although I am so tempted1751to geek out on what broken windows really was, according to1752George Kelling and James Q. Wilson.1753    George Kelling was on the faculty at the Rutgers School of1754Criminal Justice for years. It wasn't about enforcement.1755    It was really about how visible signs of disarray and1756disorder can send a signal that places are vulnerable to crime.1757Fixing those broken windows. It wasn't about a vast--1758    Mr. Raskin. Which is why I was pointing out, we had1759millions of dollars of broken windows here, in addition to all1760the bloodshed--1761    Dr. La Vigne. Yes.1762    Mr. Raskin. The people.1763    Mr. Van Drew. Time has expired.1764    Mr. Raskin. I yield back.1765    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentleman. I will yield myself1766five minutes.1767    Just a few quick questions and a couple thoughts. Just, I1768agree with you, by the way, Mr. Mauro. Right now, we can have1769another hearing on Epstein. We can have another hearing on1770January 6th.1771    We are really trying to talk to people about the people on1772the street and what they are going through when they live in1773many of these areas throughout the country. That is what we are1774supposed to be here for.1775    With that, I am sorry, I have to just digress a tiny1776second. The Epstein files, just so we all know, Epstein was1777indicted under President Trump's Administration. He was1778arrested during Trump's Administration.1779    Maxwell was indicted during the Trump Administration. Was1780arrested during the Trump Administration. Let's set the facts1781straight.1782    Mr. Mauro, I have a question for you, and if you can answer1783briefly. The Democratic party has changed. Again, I don't want1784to get political here.1785    You are right. If I understood what you were saying, there1786used to be a bipartisan agreement, probably back around the17871990s, I don't know the exact years.1788    President Clinton, other noted Democrats that really cared,1789that as Democrats, they might have differed in vision with1790Republicans on some issues, fiscal and otherwise, but keeping1791our streets safe for the men and women who live in the country,1792especially in urban areas, wasn't that a bipartisan effort?1793    Wasn't that a different kind of Democrat than what we are1794seeing now?1795    Mr. Mauro. The tremendous success in New York City relative1796to driving down crime that began in the 1990s began post-1797Giuliani.1798    Everybody thought it was going to go away under a Democrat1799mayor, a police commissioner serving under a Democratic mayor,1800in fact two, Raymond Kelly and William Bratton.1801    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Mauro, thank you for that. My point is,1802this is a whole new deal now going on with Democrats. This is a1803different world.1804    This isn't those Democrats back then. This is Mamdani is1805not Bill Clinton, is not that type of a Democrat at all.1806Mamdani, in fact, wants to take, I am sure you heard about it,1807I am sure you are upset about it, all misdemeanors, there will1808be no more misdemeanors. It is unbelievable.1809    The second issue I wanted to talk about is, really quickly,1810this sounds like a stupid question. Why are we locking up our1811toothpaste, our mouthwash, our just common things, and cough1812medicine? What is going on?1813    Mr. Mauro. This is a salient question. Three hundred1814twenty-seven career perpetrators identified by The New York1815Times now, account for a full one-third of all the shoplifting1816in New York City. That is driving these numbers.1817    The point that I tried to make in my opening statement was1818that we are not talking about locking up vast numbers of people1819now to change the dynamic on the street.1820    We had learned from broken windows and where we are right1821now, is if there was some surgical enforcement on people who1822are identified, and we just took those steps, conditions would1823be greatly improved.1824    These are the kinds of real things that I was hoping we1825could talk about today.1826    Mr. Van Drew. The stuff that affects people because they1827are paying more for their goods and services because of it.1828That makes them feel nervous. They don't like it. It shouldn't1829be that way.1830    Next question, isn't part of this, you can cook the books1831in statistics. We keep hearing about the statistics. Go out in1832the street.1833    I know Newark well, Doctor, I know it well. I spent plenty1834of time there going to continuing education courses at Rutgers1835University.1836    I am going to say that if you went to Newark and North1837Jersey, or Irvington, or many of the other cities up there, and1838if you go to the cities in my area, Pleasantville, Atlantic1839City, there is a lot of concern for safety. Particularly,1840people of color, because they live there and they have that1841concern.1842    With that said, isn't part of the statistics, there is low1843morale, there is less staffing, there is less prosecution,1844there is less arrests, if you just let it go by.1845    Of course, with less prosecution and less arrest, you are1846going to have lower numbers. Is there any accuracy to what I1847say?1848    Mr. Mauro. Yes.1849    Mr. Van Drew. Exactly. Let's do the real deal. Let's talk1850about what's really happening.1851    We made it so damn hard for a cop to be a cop, and just so1852disgusted and demoralized with it, they just don't bother,1853unless it is the most serious of situations. I had cops in D.C.1854last year, tell me that when I actually witnessed something.1855    Let me ask this, Ms. McKinney, again, sorry to ask1856questions to you, because I know you have gone through a lot.1857Thank you for being here.1858    I know condolences and the sorrow means a lot. Would it1859maybe mean more to you if we enacted policies so that what1860happened to your son never happened to somebody else again?1861    Ms. McKinney. Definitely.1862    Mr. Van Drew. That means more than the condolences, doesn't1863it?1864    Ms. McKinney. It would. Especially in Memphis.1865    Mr. Van Drew. Yes.1866    Ms. McKinney. That is why I have, with the National Guard1867there, I know some people are against having the National Guard1868in big cities or anywhere on U.S. territory.1869    Mr. Van Drew. Yes.1870    Ms. McKinney. I feel that the National Guard in Memphis,1871just their presence alone, has made a difference. They don't do1872police work.1873    Mr. Van Drew. May I ask a question related to that. Really1874quick for all of you, and then I am done.1875    Do you believe that the National Guard, the men and women1876in the Guard, are capable of being on those city streets and1877doing good and not doing harm?1878    That they are not just going to be warriors that are going1879out shooting people and beating them up? Mr. Mangual, yes or no1880answer?1881    Mr. Mangual. Yes, I do.1882    Mr. Van Drew. Mr. Mauro?1883    Mr. Mauro. Yes.1884    Ms. McKinney. Yes.1885    Dr. La Vigne. Yes.1886    Mr. Van Drew. OK. That puts that away. I thank you and I1887thank all of you. With that--1888    Ms. Crockett. I have UCs.1889    Mr. Van Drew. I bet you you do.1890    Ms. Crockett. I mean, you asked different questions. I got1891answers.1892    My first UC, I asked unanimous consent to enter into the1893record an article titled, ``DOJ Cancels $500 Million in Public1894Safety Grants, Cuts Officer Safety and Crime Prevention1895Programs,'' published by Police1 on August 18, 2025.1896    I also have one where, it is entitled, ``Public Safety1897Groups Face an Uncertain Future Months After Federal Grant1898Cuts,'' published by the National Public Radio.1899    I also have one that says, ``Justice Department Slashes1900Essential Services for Crime Victims,'' published by the1901Brennan Center.1902    I have one that says, let's see, this is by The Guardian.1903It is published March 27, 2025. ``Trump Cut 69 Global Programs1904Tackling Child Labor and Human Trafficking.''1905    I have another one that says, this is written by Michael1906Waldman, titled, ``Trump Defunds Effective Crime Prevention1907Policies, published by the Brennan Center,'' July 2025.1908    I have another one that says, it is by Nicole, I can't1909pronounce Nicole's last name. ``Crime Prevention Efforts Face1910Setbacks After Federal Cuts.''1911    I have another one that says, ``Federal Cuts to Behavioral1912Health Will Harm Public Safety,'' from September 23, 2025.1913    My final one on this issue, so we can put this to rest. I1914asked unanimous consent, this is written by Nick Wilson,1915titled, ``The Trump Administration's Budget Will Undermine1916ATF's Efforts to Prevent Violent Crime.'' This was published by1917the Center for American Progress on July 9, 2025.1918    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection. I would remind everyone1919that those are, in sincerity, mostly Left-wing publications. I1920could come and put a lot of UCs in for publications that would1921disagree with that totally.1922    Ms. Crockett. I have--OK.1923    Mr. Van Drew. My point being, let me just finish my point.1924It is not going to put anything to rest and you know that.1925    Ms. Crockett. Well, but Mr. Chair, I will ask, if you do1926have any UCs that say the opposite about these Federal cuts as1927if they didn't happen, please enter them into the record, so1928that we can have it in the Congressional Record that these cuts1929were not made. I just would like it to be, I want us to have an1930accurate record.1931    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair?1932    Mr. Van Drew. Not necessarily the cuts, but the results of1933the cuts are two different things. Where you are spending1934money, and if you are spending money that is effective.1935    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, if I could, I just have four, not1936seven, I think I just counted.1937    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection.1938    Mr. Raskin. This is in Reuters, ``Federal Drug Prosecutions1939Fall the Lowest Level in Decades as Trump Shifts Focus to1940Deportations.''1941    This one is the Washington Post, November 10, 2025, no1942longer a liberal publication, by the way. ``Justice Department1943Struggles as Thousands Exit and Few Replaced.''1944    This one is from ProPublica, ``How Trump Has Exploited1945Pardons and Clemency to Reward Political Allies and1946Supporters.''1947    Finally, this one from the Cato Institute, ``ICE Has1948Diverted Over 25,000 Officers in Their Jobs at the FBI.''1949    Mr. Van Drew. Without objection.1950    Mr. Raskin. OK.1951    Mr. Van Drew. You are next?1952    Ms. Crockett. Yes.1953    Mr. Van Drew. OK. I now recognize the Ranking Member, I am1954sorry, I don't, yes, the Ranking Member of this Committee, I1955do, Ms. Crockett.1956    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. If we have1957learned anything this year, is that Congressional Republicans1958are more interested in serving Donald Trump than they are in1959serving their constituents.1960    Over the past 10 months, they have given away permanent tax1961cuts to the wealthiest people on earth, demolished half of the1962White House, pardoned violent insurrectionists, significantly1963driven up cost of living across the country, and then given1964themselves a taxpayer-funded eight-week vacation.1965    Also, they could delay, as long as possible, Congress1966voting to release the Epstein files. Now, they are trying to1967gaslight you into believing that you should trust them on crime1968policy.1969    They want you to believe that living in a Police State is a1970good or normal thing. They want you to be OK with having armed1971soldiers and Federal agents monitor you as you shop for1972groceries or take your children to school.1973    They want you to think that you won't be affected. We have1974already seen Americans detained, arrested, injured, and some1975nearly killed because of this Administration's reckless1976approach to handling crime.1977    They are doing all this without acknowledging the fact that1978Republican led States are experiencing a murder and crime and1979violent crime crisis. Have so, and they have, for the last two1980decades.1981    The Republicans murder State rates were 33 percent higher1982than Democratic State murder rates in both 2021-2022. In fact,1983over the past 22 years, the Republican State murder rates were1984nearly a quarter higher compared to States that are led by1985Democrats.1986    Even when you remove Democratic cities and counties from1987the Republican State's data, their murder rate is still nearly1988a quarter higher than States run by Democrats.1989    Ms. La Vigne, how long have you studied crime?1990    Dr. La Vigne. You are going to have me show my age. Is that1991nice?1992    Ms. Crockett. It doesn't show in your face, honey. That is1993all that matters.1994    Dr. La Vigne. Let's just say about three decades.1995    Ms. Crockett. OK, very good. Would you agree that factors1996like poverty, lax gun laws, and a lack of public services, can1997lead to higher crime rates?1998    Dr. La Vigne. Yes. I agree with that.1999    Ms. Crockett. According to the Census Bureau States with2000the highest poverty rates are disproportionately Republican2001governed and often have laxer gun laws and less public2002services.2003    Wouldn't you agree that these factors are likely why2004Republican led States have higher murder rates than Democratic2005States?2006    Dr. La Vigne. I would. In fact, I would like to lift up2007some research from one of our faculty members, Dr. Robert Apel.2008    He recently conducted a study looking at the relationship2009between levels and quality of public assistance and crime.2010Found that there is the relationship in the expected direction.2011That is, lower public assistance, more crime, and more2012recidivism.2013    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much for that. Not only are you2014likely to be a victim of violent crime in a Republican led2015State, you are now less likely to receive victim assistance,2016because of Republican cutting resources for food, shelter, and2017transportation.2018    This is what Donald Trump's America looks like. Never let a2019wannabe tyrant convince you that the only way for you to be2020safe is to live under a Police State where he controls your2021day-to-day activities by means of military or armed Federal2022agents.2023    That is what we call a dictatorship. I just want to be2024clear, because I appreciate what you just brought up, because I2025did serve as a public defender and a court-appointed attorney.2026    As we sat here, I remembered that one of the witnesses'2027opening statements, they mentioned the word why. As Michael2028Jackson used to sing, why, why, why, we have not dealt with the2029why. We have not dealt with why crime happens.2030    If you understand the why, then maybe you can come to a2031conclusion. As someone who has sat there with people that were2032too poor to be able to afford their own attorneys, I can tell2033you some whys.2034    What I am going to do, is talk to you about why the idea2035that incarceration is the only thing that can fix anything. The2036fact that we have two witnesses that are telling us that we2037need to go back to the 1994 Crime Bill, when we learned that2038all that did was drive up incarceration.2039    It didn't drive down addiction, because addiction is2040actually an illness. That is a whole other issue. You can't2041incarcerate your way out of an illness just like you can't2042incarcerate somebody that has cancer and believe that somehow2043they now will be cured.2044    I digress. What I will tell you, is that we also know that2045the U.S. has the highest incarceration rate of any independent2046democracy on earth.2047    Worse, every single State incarcerates more people per2048capita than most Nations in the global context. Even2049progressive U.S. States like New York and Massachusetts appear2050to be extreme just like Louisiana and Mississippi.2051    In addition to that, the United States has the highest2052incarceration rate, the highest average firearms per 1002053people. Highest homicides per 100,000 people. The lowest safety2054and security rate of 12 countries in comparison.2055    I had a 17-year-old that was charged with stealing food out2056of the concession stand at his high school. Unfortunately, in2057the State of Texas at the age of 17, you are considered an2058adult. So, what did they do?2059    They decided to charge him with burglary of a habitation.2060He had an attorney that was not me when he went through this.2061They put him on felony probation.2062    Ultimately, they revoked his probation because he was too2063poor to show up to his actual probation officer, as his mom was2064the one who was required to take off work so that she could2065take him in.2066    I am going to wrap up. This is really important for people2067to understand. At the end of the day, they ended up giving my2068kid the maximum punishment for less than $20 worth of candy2069that he stole out of the concession stand.2070    Ultimately, I told them that it was a mistake to send him2071to prison. When he went to prison, he learned how to be a2072criminal. That is where he learned how to cook meth.2073    The next time that I saw him, it was because he had2074committed a real crime. Ultimately, all that did was harm our2075communities.2076    I will be clear, this was a poor young man, but he was not2077Black. This was in rural Texas. This was East Texas.2078    Mr. Van Drew. Time has expired.2079    Ms. Crockett. I want to be smart about what we do with2080crime. I want to make sure that we are putting our money in2081smart places.2082    Mr. Van Drew. Time has expired.2083    Ms. Crockett. Thank you so much for being kind.2084    Mr. Van Drew. I thank the gentlewoman. With that, I2085recognize the former Attorney General and from the great State2086of Kansas, Robert Onder.2087    I am sorry. It is mistaken, I am sorry. Derek Schmidt. I2088got to get my people straight here, right?2089    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Chair. You are promoted.2090    Mr. Van Drew. I made you an attorney. I made a doctor an2091Attorney General. I guess that makes you a doctor? I don't2092know.2093    Mr. Schmidt. Oh yes, just don't put me in Missouri and we2094will be OK.2095    Mr. Van Drew. OK.2096    Mr. Schmidt. No, it is all good.2097    Mr. Van Drew. That is the deal.2098    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank our2099witnesses for their time. It has been nearly two hours.2100    I spent 12 years as the, what our law calls the chief law2101enforcement official of my State, and got to work with a lot of2102prosecutions directly. We ran our victim support programs for2103the States.2104    I worked with a lot of crime victims. I have been sitting2105here over the course of this hearing, and I have made a list of2106a few terms that in 12 years interacting with literally2107hundreds of crime victims and their families.2108    In fact, this time of the year, we always hosted around the2109holidays, a series of holiday remembrance receptions for crime2110victims' families. Because we understand that the unique2111experience of going through the loss of a loved one or being2112victimized yourself, sometimes just being together with others2113at the holidays who have had a similar experience, can be2114powerful.2115    So, hundreds. This is a list of terms I never heard once2116for many of them. I never heard the term Trump. I never heard2117the term Biden. I served during the Biden years.2118    I never heard the term Obama. I served during the Obama2119years. I never heard the phrase unanimous consent. I never had2120one of them quote crime statistics or theory to me.2121    I never heard one of them say Republican. I never heard one2122of them say Democrat. I heard a lot of them cry. I heard a lot2123of them tell me stories about their loved one who was lost or2124about what happened to them.2125    Some were police officers. Ma'am, we lost, I believe it was212613 on my watch. It might have been 14. I would have to go back2127and count name by name.2128    We have lost four police officers to homicide on duty this2129year in Kansas. I had four others shot, by the grace of God,2130none are dead, just this last week in my district.2131    This is real. It is sad that this conversation has gone off2132in many different directions. I want to thank our witnesses for2133wanting to talk about what we can do about all of this.2134    For me, the measure is how do we have fewer Kansans killed,2135raped or robbed? That is what this ought to be about.2136    With that, I want to turn to the testimony from Mr.2137Mangual. You recommend a crime bill. You gave us four elements2138that you think ought to be in there. Some of which, by the way,2139sounds remarkably like, I heard Bill Clinton's voice in my head2140when you said a hundred thousand more cops on the street, hire2141and retain more police officers.2142    You added a fifth one that wasn't in your written2143testimony. You said condition grants on best practices. I want2144to ask our other witnesses, just start with Mr. Mauro and go2145down the line, do you think it is a good idea that we ought to2146look at some type of broad or comprehensive crime bill in this2147Congress?2148    If so, what else or what would you put in it?2149    Mr. Mauro. I do think it is a good idea. It worked once.2150Frankly, if we don't learn from history as the saying goes, we2151are doomed to repeat it.2152    It may surprise the Committee to hear me say that I agree2153with Ms. Crockett. Low-level offenses, if you incarcerate2154people, actually among the perps, among the perpetrators, they2155call prison school.2156    That goes back to the mafia. They go to prison; they are2157all in jail together. They have nothing but time. That is how2158they learn to do other crimes and develop criminal schemes.2159    The point I was trying to make in my opening remarks, and2160it is where we should be looking at anything like a crime bill,2161is that if it is surgical, data-driven, and intelligent.2162    If you have somebody who has committed, as I was saying2163earlier, the rest, the 327 perpetrators of the shoplifting I2164was talking about, they have committed over 9,000 at the last2165check--shop-liftings.2166    That is not sending somebody to school. That is getting2167somebody off the streets that is going to continue to do it.2168That is why we lock up the toothpaste.2169    I would argue, and as I said, the sweet spot for me was in2170the 2014-2015 era there, where under a Democratic mayor and2171Democratic administration in New York, we drove down not only2172crime, but incarceration rates. That can be done if it is done2173intelligently.2174    My hope had been that we could speak about that in a2175bipartisan way, because both sides have, in my opinion, good2176points to make. You don't want to lock everybody.2177    You don't want to incarcerate your way out of these things.2178If it is done intelligently, surgically, you can make progress.2179We have done that before.2180    I don't think, to answer your question, we need to reinvent2181the wheel. We should just look at what worked in the past.2182    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you, Mr. Mauro. Ms. McKinney, do you2183have any thoughts on whether there is anything, in particular,2184we ought to do that could be helpful?2185    Ms. McKinney. As far as policing goes, that just the local2186leaders and also government leaders should definitely have a2187hard stance on crime. Come forward and just denounce and stop2188being soft.2189    Just this repeat offender stuff, telling the criminals that2190it is OK with what they can do and releasing them. Give them a2191three strikes and you are out.2192    We used to have that in Memphis years ago, and it did deter2193crime. It showed the younger people that they were not allowed2194to go back out and do it again. That there would be2195consequences for what they were going to do.2196    A lot of the problems that we have in Memphis is through2197leadership. They are very neglectful in their duties.2198    They don't prioritize education for the children. A lot of2199the children in Memphis don't know how to read. They don't know2200how to do basic math. That is an issue.2201    Parent accountability is an issue. Parents just let their2202kids run wild. They don't know where their kids are at.2203    I don't know what you can do about that. I don't agree with2204having parents be held accountable for their children's2205decisions in some instances, because parents can only do so2206much.2207    The children do what they do because that was their choice.2208They--2209    Ms. Van Drew. The lady's time has expired.2210    Ms. McKinney. Thank you.2211    Mr. Schmidt. Thank you.2212    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you. I thank the gentleman. That2213concludes today's hearing. We thank our witnesses for appearing2214before this Subcommittee.2215    Without objection, all Members will have five legislative2216days to submit additional writing in question form for the2217witnesses, or additional materials for the record.2218    Without objection, this hearing is adjourned.2219    [Whereupon, at 4:03 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]22202221    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the2222Subcommittee on Oversight can be found at: https://2223docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=118671.22242225                                 [all]