H.Hrg.119

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                    MIND CONTROL AND ACCOUNTABILITY:5                          UNCOVERING THE TRUTH6                      OF THE CIA'S MKULTRA PROJECT7=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                  TASK FORCE ON THE DECLASSIFICATION14                           OF FEDERAL SECRETS1516                                 OF THE1718              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM1920                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2122                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2324                             SECOND SESSION2526                               __________2728                             JUNE 30, 20262930                               __________3132                           Serial No. 119-683334                               __________3536Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3738[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3940    Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov4142                              __________4344                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4564-141 PDF              WASHINGTON : 202646=======================================================================4748              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM4950                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman5152Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Robert Garcia, California, Ranking53Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member54Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of55Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia56Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts57Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois58Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California59Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland60Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio61Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico62Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Maxwell Frost, Florida63Pat Fallon, Texas                    Greg Casar, Texas64Byron Donalds, Florida               Jasmine Crockett, Texas65Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Emily Randall, Washington66William Timmons, South Carolina      Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia67Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Yassamin Ansari, Arizona68Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Wesley Bell, Missouri69Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Lateefah Simon, California70Nick Langworthy, New York            Dave Min, California71Eric Burlison, Missouri              James Walkinshaw, Virginia72Elijah Crane, Arizona                Christian Menefee, Texas73Brian Jack, Georgia                  Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts74John McGuire, Virginia               Rashida Tlaib, Michigan75Brandon Gill, Texas76Richard McCormick, Georgia7778                                 ------7980                       Mark Marin, Staff Director81                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director82                     Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel83                 Sam Meunier, Professional Staff Member84         Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk8586                      Contact Number: 202-225-50748788                Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director89                      Contact Number: 202-225-505190                                 ------9192         Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets9394                 Anna Paulina Luna, Florida, Chairwoman9596Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Jasmine Crockett, Texas, Ranking97Tim Burchett, Tennessee                  Member98Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Stephen Lynch, Massachusetts99Eric Burlison, Missouri              Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois100Elijah Crane, Arizona                Summer Lee, Pennsylvania101Brandon Gill, Texas                  Dave Min, California102103                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S104105                              ----------106107                           OPENING STATEMENTS108109                                                                   Page110111Hon. Anna Paulina Luna, U.S. Representative, Chairman............     1112113                               WITNESSES114115Dr. Stephen Kinzer, Historian, Journalist, and Senior Fellow in116  International and Public Affairs, Brown University117Oral Statement...................................................     4118119Mr. Tom O'Neill, Investigative Journalist, Author of ``Chaos:120  Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret History of the121  Sixties''122Oral Statement...................................................     6123124Dr. Elizabeth M. Ginexi, Ph.D. (Minority Witness), Research125  Scientist126Oral Statement...................................................     8127128Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.129  House of Representatives Document Repository at:130  docs.house.gov.131132                    MIND CONTROL AND ACCOUNTABILITY:133                          UNCOVERING THE TRUTH134                      OF THE CIA'S MKULTRA PROJECT135136                              ----------137138                         TUESDAY, JUNE 30, 2026139140                     U.S. House of Representatives141142              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform143144         Task Force on the Declassification of Federal Secrets145146                                                   Washington, D.C.147148    The Task Force met, pursuant to notice, at 10:06 a.m., Room1492154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Anna Paulina Luna150[Chairwoman of the Task Force] presiding.151    Present: Representatives Luna, Mace, Burchett, Boebert,152Burlison, and Crane.153    Also present, Representative Perry.154    Mrs. Luna. This hearing of the Task Force on155Declassification of Federal Secrets will come to order.156Welcome, everyone.157    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any158time. I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening159statement.160161       OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRWOMAN ANNA PAULINA LUNA162163                  REPRESENTATIVE FROM FLORIDA164165    This hearing is about the crimes committed by the Central166Intelligence Agency against the American citizens and the167decades of secrecy used to conceal them. The American people168deserve a complete and truthful record. Victims and their169families deserve acknowledgement, and this Congress has a170constitutional obligation to ensure that full declassification171is not delayed any longer.172    Project MKULTRA was not a policy failure or an overzealous173program that got out of hand. It was a deliberate, systematic174governmental operational that subjected American citizens,175prisoners, hospital patients, veterans, ordinary people to LSD,176electroshock, hypnosis, sensory deprivation, psychological177torture without their knowledge or consent.178    This went on for 20 years, on American soil, funded by179American taxpayer dollars, and authorized by the very top of180U.S. intelligence apparatus. And this program, when it did end,181the men who ran it did not cooperate with investigators. They182did not come forward. They committed another crime: they183destroyed evidence.184    The documents this Task Force has reviewed are unambiguous.185In January 1973, the Director of the Central Intelligence186Agency (CIA), Richard Helms, prepared to leave office. He187personally ordered the destruction of MKULTRA records. The CIA188official document in writing states, ``Over my stated189objectives, the MKULTRA files were destroyed by the order of190DCI, Mr. Helms, shortly before his departure from office.'' A191separate internal account confirms that Helms telephoned Dr.192Gottlieb directly and instructed him to destroy, quote, ``all193files pertaining to drug research and associated activities.''194    Gottlieb compiled four people, spent an entire day tearing,195burning down 152 files. Then Gottlieb had his personal papers196destroyed by his secretary before he retired. The head of the197CIA's own Records Center protested the destruction in writing,198but he was overruled.199    That is obstruction of justice. That is criminal200destruction of Federal records, and neither individuals were201ever charged with a crime for it. Helms received a $2,000 file202for lying to Congress about an unrelated manner and collected203his government pension until he died. Gottlieb retired in rural204Virginia and wrote poetry. No one went to prison. No victim was205ever formally compensated by the government for the harm that206they caused.207    By 1975, the Church Committee and the Rockefeller208Commission had already established, through sworn testimony,209and the surviving 1963 Inspector General report that MKULTRA210existed and that the CIA had run a program of human211experimentation on unwitting Americans.212    The scope and detail of what we know today is largely213because of an accident. In 1977, an archivist, diligently214complying with a FOIA request, discovered seven boxes of215MKULTRA financial records that had been misfiled and escaped216the bonfire. Those seven boxes included the names of217institutions, the name of subprojects, the researchers who218participated, the specific operation that the CIA had funded,219and without them the vast majority of MKULTRA would only be a220rumor, just as Helms and Gottlieb intended.221    Those seven boxes revealed that MKULTRA comprised at least222149 subprojects, operated across more than 80 institutions, and223involved 185 non-government researchers. They revealed that the224CIA covertly contributed $375,000 to a hospital research wing,225which was approved directly by DCI Allen Dulles, with Richard226Helms' concurrence, so the Agency could use unwitting patients227as experimental subjects in what their own documents called ``a228hospital safe house.''229    The CIA's own Inspector General said, in 1963, his230classified report concluded that the program had exceeded the231agency's legal chapter and covert testing on unwitting subjects232placed the rights and interests of U.S. citizens in jeopardy.233The program ran for a decade, that we know of, and they ignored234their own watchdog.235    Let me be clear, in what I believe that we are dealing with236here. Administering drugs to people without their knowledge or237consent, and subjecting humans to psychological torture, and238using prisoners and hospital patients as non-consenting239research subjects, these are crimes against humanity. The240Central Intelligence Agency committed them, and then the241Director of the CIA was ordering the destruction of evidence.242    Today, we will hear from two witnesses who have spent years243unraveling the cover-up that our government ordered. Steven244Kinzer documented the life and crimes of Sidney Gottlieb in his245book, ``Poisoner in Chief,'' and Tom O'Neill spent over 20246years investigating what the CIA buried and what they obscured247that, in my mind, constitute some of the worst notorious crimes248against humanity in the 20th century.249    Their persistence in their research and this hearing is250possible simply because they are patriots. The American people251deserve the complete record; the victims and their families252deserve acknowledgement, accountability, and justice; and this253Congress has a constitutional obligation to make sure that the254CIA never does this again.255    With that I am going to be opening up first questions, and256I will hold my questions to end, to Representative Burlison.257But before I do pass it, I did want to just note, a few weeks258ago we did receive reports. There was some back-and-forth259regarding the CIA and Office of the Director of National260Intelligence (ODNI) pertaining to new MKULTRA boxes that were261discovered. Myself and Representative Burlison did go down to262Langley. We did meet with the CIA, and the CIA is currently in263the process of declassifying newly found documentation,264although the documents, and I feel comfortable enough to share265here, pertain specifically to a forgery program that was being266housed under MKULTRA. So, as soon as those files are released267we will be putting out notification, with your help, to also268comb through some of the newly released documents, but I did269want to give you a quick update.270    Without further ado I would like to now recognize271Representative Eric Burlison for his questions. Go ahead.272    Without objection, Representative Perry and Representative273Higgins from Pennsylvania and Louisiana are waived onto the274Committee for the purpose of questioning the witnesses at275today's Subcommittee [sic] hearing.276    And I would like to now recognize Dr. Kinzer and the277witnesses for their opening statements.278    Stephen Kinzer is a historian, journalist, and author of279``Poisoner in Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA's Search for280Mind Control.'' Tom O'Neill is an investigative journalist who281authored, ``Chaos: Charles Manson, the CIA, and the Secret282History of the Sixties.'' And Elizabeth Ginexi--did I say that283right, ma'am? Ginexi?--is an independent consultant and former284Senior Program Officer at the National Institutes of Health. We285look forward to hearing what you have to say today on this286important subject.287    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please288stand and raise their right hands.289    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony you are290about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but291the truth, so help you God?292    [Chorus of ayes.]293    Mrs. Luna. Let the record show the witnesses have answered294in the affirmative. Thank you. You may take your seats.295    We appreciate you being here today. Let me remind the296witnesses that we have read your written statement and this297will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your298oral statements to 5 minutes. However, if it does go over, we299will not be gaveling you out.300    As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in301front of you so that it is illuminated and Members can hear302you. When you begin to speak the light in front of you, again,303will turn green. After 4 minutes the light will turn yellow.304When the red light comes on, that means your 5 minutes have305expired, and we would ask that you please wrap up.306    I would now like to recognize Stephen Kinzer for his307opening statement.308309                STATEMENT OF DR. STEPHEN KINZER310311                    HISTORIAN AND JOURNALIST312313        SENIOR FELLOW, INTERNATIONAL AND PUBLIC AFFAIRS314315                        BROWN UNIVERSITY316317    Dr. Kinzer. Thank you very much, Madam Chairman. Let me318begin by expressing my gratitude to this Task Force for319confronting the enormous issue of overclassification of320government documents and the culture of secrecy that enables321it. I am especially gratified by your interest in MKULTRA, the322project the CIA carried out through the 1950s in an attempt to323find the secret of mind control.324    MKULTRA was one of the most secret government programs in325American history. The chemist who directed it, Sidney Gottlieb,326lived in total anonymity. My book ``Poisoner in Chief'' may be327the most complete account of MKULTRA that exists in public, but328I am painfully aware that I have discovered only a small329portion of what MKULTRA was and what Sidney Gottlieb did.330    In 1951, the CIA hired Gottlieb and directed him to launch331what became MKULTRA. Gottlieb believed that in order to find a332way to implant a new mind into someone's brain, you first had333to find a way to destroy the mind that was in there already. In334its search for ways to destroy a human mind and body, MKULTRA335conducted the most extreme experiments on human beings that336have ever been carried out by a U.S. Government agency. By any337standard they qualify as medical torture. These experiments338took place in prisons, clinics, and safe houses in the United339States, in Europe, and Asia, and even in Latin America.340    Officers of MKULTRA were authorized to travel to foreign341countries, preferably those under formal or informal U.S.342occupation, and ask the local CIA station to provide them with343``expendables,'' human beings who would not be missed if they344disappeared. Gottlieb had what amounted to a license to kill345issued by the U.S. Government. Neither the number of MKULTRA346victims nor the number of those who were experimented to death347is known. Gottlieb, as a result of this license to kill, might348have been the most powerful unknown American of the 20th349century.350    Some information about MKULTRA spilled out during the3511970s, but senior CIA officers had intentionally let Gottlieb352operate without supervision, so they were able to claim that353they knew nothing about his excesses. This was a way for the354CIA to deny its institutional role in MKULTRA, and to portray355it misleadingly as the product of one man's sadism or excessive356zeal.357    Investigating MKULTRA is challenging because when Gottlieb358and his mentor, Richard Helms, left the CIA in 1973, they359illegally ordered that its records be destroyed. Soon360afterward, under DCI Stansfield Turner, a CIA analyst, as you361pointed out, Madam Chairman, discovered a cache of MKULTRA362documents hidden among financial records. Turner credited the363analyst with doing what he called ``a very diligent job of364Sherlock Holmes-ing.'' That same diligence, I believe, could365bring results today.366    One of the great mysteries of MKULTRA has to do with the367death in 1953 of an MKULTRA scientist, Frank Olson, who had368announced his intention to quit the project. His plunge from a369New York hotel room was described in the press as the suicide370of an Army scientist. He was not an Army scientist. He worked371for the CIA. And evidence suggests that his death may not have372been a suicide. So, there could be hidden documents that could373illuminate this case.374    I would also point out that in addition to searching for375unknown documents, this Committee could do a tremendous service376by simply asking for the end of redactions on the documents377that we now have. There are reams of documents about MKULTRA378that have heavy sections redacted. In the 1970s, this was379justified by the argument that it had only been 20 years since380these terrible things had happened and revealing details might381affect national security. Now 70 years have passed. That382argument can no longer be valid. So, I would urge this383Committee to try to fill out all of the blank spaces in the384documents that we have, because we know that is there.385    This Task Force could also consider trying to determine386whether some new incarnation of MKULTRA exists today.387    When the main phase of MKULTRA drew to a close in early3881960s, Sidney Gottlieb concluded that it had failed, that in389fact there is no such thing as mind control. Even if he was390right, however, he may have been right only at that time. In391the many decades since then, there have been enormous advances392in cyber technology, in artificial intelligence, in393neuroscience. Covert agencies may have access now to tools for394mind control that Sidney Gottlieb could not have imagined.395    It may well have been true in 1963 that mind control is a396myth, but whether it is still true is uncertain. That question397of whether mind control might now be possible under our new398circumstances is something that has presumably occurred to399scientists who work for Secret Services, including our own.400    This Task Force has a chance to connect the past to the401future. A renewed effort to find MKULTRA documents from the4021950s, and to fill out the redactions of those that have been403released, might shed new light on how the CIA operated during404that period. It could also inform a new inquiry into whether405any mind control projects are now underway inside the U.S.406security apparatus. That might help prevent the emergence of a40721st century MKULTRA that could be even more destructive than408the original.409    Thank you.410    Mrs. Luna. Thank you very much, Dr. Kinzer.411    I now recognize Tom O'Neill for his opening statement.412413                  STATEMENT OF MR. TOM O'NEILL414415                    INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST416417          AUTHOR OF ``CHAOS: CHARLES MANSON, THE CIA,418419            AND THE SECRET HISTORY OF THE SIXTIES''420421    Mr. O'Neill. Thank you, Chairwoman Luna and Members of the422Committee. It is a privilege to be here today.423    Almost 50 years ago, the last congressional hearings into424MKULTRA took place just a short walk from here in the Dirksen425Senate Office Building. At those hearings, convened in August426and September 1977, representatives of the CIA told Congress427and the American people that its 25-year effort to control428human behavior had been a colossal failure. I believe Congress429was never told the truth about what this program actually430achieved. In fact, I believe the agency misled Congress in4311977, when it characterized MKULTRA as a failure.432    My name is Tom O'Neill, and in 1999 I accepted a magazine433assignment to write a story about murders committed by a group434of ``hippies'' called the Manson Family. For those unfamiliar435with this horrific episode of American history, in the summer436of 1969, four young people, acting on the orders of a cult437leader named Charles Manson, went to the home of movie director438Roman Polanski and murdered everyone they found there,439including his eight-and-a-half-month pregnant wife, the actress440Sharon Tate. The victims were complete strangers to their441killers.442    The following night, Manson's followers murdered another443couple in the same grisly fashion.444    At the time I accepted the assignment, I had never heard of445MKULTRA, and I would not for another two years, after I had446missed countless deadlines, lost the assignment, and fallen447down a nightmarish rabbit hole trying to answer the question I448could not quite shake--how had Manson, a barely literate ex-449con, acquired the ability to persuade ordinary young people to450murder complete strangers simply because he had told them to?451    The pursuit of the answer to that question led me to Dr.452Louis Jolyon West, known to his friends as ``Jolly.'' West was453one of the most influential psychiatrists in America. During454his career, he crossed paths with some of the most455controversial events of the 20th century, including the Patty456Hearst kidnapping case and the aftermath of the John F. Kennedy457assassination investigation.458    In 1977, West was one of seven academic researchers named459in a front-page New York Times story alleging that the CIA had460used American universities, hospitals, and prisons as secret461laboratories for experiments involving LSD and other drugs on462unwitting human subjects. West vigorously denied the463allegations. He acknowledged that the agency had approached464him, but insisted he had refused because he said LSD was too465dangerous and unpredictable to be used on humans. He added that466he limited all of his research with LSD to animals.467    The revelations in The Times led directly to the468congressional hearings held later that year. West's denials,469however, were effective. He was never investigated, and his470name never came up at the hearings.471    I will spare you the long and tedious story of how my472Manson reporting led to West, led me to West, except to say473that I eventually learned that in 1967, when Manson transformed474into the cult leader we are familiar with today, he and his475followers were receiving free medical care at a clinic in San476Francisco, where West had established a base of operation for a477research project he was conducting nearby.478    After becoming intrigued by the allegations against West, I479learned that UCLA, his last academic home, had inherited his480paper following his death in 1999. Nearly two months and more481than 200 boxes later, I found the proverbial needle in a482haystack, correspondence between West and Dr. Sidney Gottlieb,483the architect of MKULTRA.484    The letters begin in 1953, just two months after CIA485Director Allen Dulles authorized the program, and while West486was stationed at the Lackland Air Force Base in San Antonio,487Texas, where he was chief psychiatrist at the base hospital. In488his first letter to Gottlieb, West proposed conducting489experiments on unwitting human subjects, including military490personnel, prisoners, and psychiatric patients at the base491hospital. He then outlined the experiments themselves, in six492more pages that could have been written by Josef Mengele.493    Using LSD in combination with hypnosis, West proposed494inducing confusion, amnesia, and specific mental disorders in495people who would remember nothing of their interaction with him496afterward. He sought to develop techniques to extract true497information and implant false information in unwilling subjects498and to alter the attitudes and beliefs of, quote, ``previously499loyal individuals,'' in other words, to completely switch their500allegiance from one group or leader to another.501    But it was another sentence at the end of that letter that502stopped me cold. ``These experiments,'' he wrote, ``must503eventually be put to test in practical trials in the field.''504    Gottlieb's response could hardly have been more505enthusiastic. ``My good friend,'' he wrote, ``I had been506wondering whether your apparent rapid and comprehensive grasp507of our problems could possibly be real. You have indeed508developed an admirably accurate picture of exactly what we are509after.'' West replied that there was no more vital undertaking510conceivable in these times.511    There was another document in West's papers that had even512more significant implications. It was a 14-page report that513West wrote in 1956, just three years after he contracted with514the CIA. In the report, West described administering LSD and515other drugs in conjunction with hypnosis on unwitting human516subjects, and then he made a remarkable claim. He announced517that he had learned how to replace true memories with false518memories in people, without their knowledge. In other words, he519clarified, ``It has been found to be feasible to take the520memory of a definite event in the life of an individual and,521through hypnotic suggestion, bring about the subsequent522conscious recall to the effect that this event never actually523took place, but that a different fictional event actually did524occur.''525    If West's report was accurate, this was not the failure526agency officials described in 1977. Quite the opposite. It was,527in fact, the central ambition of the MKULTRA operation, the528means of gaining the ability to seize the control of a person's529perceptions, memories, and ultimately their behavior.530    But there was still one more discovery, and this time I531found it in the National Security Archives at George Washington532University, the official repository of the CIA's MKULTRA533records, which were released to Congress after the 1977534hearings. In those holdings, was a different version of West's5351956 report. The original paper had been replaced by a four-536page summary that did not exist in West's files and appears to537have been written by someone else. His claims about replacing538memories were gone. In their place was a theoretical discussion539of LSD and dissociative states.540    The version supplied to Congress concluded that the effects541of LSD and similar drugs on dissociative states had, and I am542quoting, ``never been studied.'' Never been studied. In the543original report, West discusses observations from his own544experiments, including detailed descriptions of using LSD to,545as he wrote, ``speed the induction of the hypnotic state and546deepen the trance in subjects.'' Those passages had been547removed in the report turned over to Congress. The discrepancy548could not have been more stark.549    Nearly 50 years ago, another congressional committee550believed it had been given the truth about MKULTRA. It had not.551    In conclusion, I respectfully submit that these records,552some newly available and others that remain outside the553government's disclosure for decades, warrant a thorough554reexamination of what the program accomplished, what Congress555was told, and what may still remain hidden.556    I am happy to provide the documents I have referenced557today, and I have provided many additional details in my558written testimony.559    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Mr. O'Neill. I now recognize560Elizabeth Ginexi for her opening statement.561562          STATEMENT OF DR. ELIZABETH M. GINEXI, PH.D.563564                       (MINORITY WITNESS)565566                       RESEARCH SCIENTIST567568    Dr. Ginexi. Chairman Luna and distinguished Members of the569Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today.570    I am a health research scientist with a master's and571doctoral degrees in psychology from the George Washington572University. I spent 22 years, from 2003 to 2025, as a573scientific program official at the National Institutes of574Health, managing more than $132 million in health research575grants and co-authoring 18 Federal funding programs. I left the576National Institutes of Health (NIH) in April 2025.577    I am here today because what is happening to NIH right now578is not reform. It is the replacement of scientific judgment579with political control.580    For 80 years, U.S. Federal investments in biomedical581research produced outcomes that no private market would have582funded. Heart disease is the leading cause of death in the583United States. NIH-funded research on blood pressure,584cholesterol, and smoking drove a 56 percent decline in heart585disease between 1950 and 1996. Cancer has been transformed.586Treatments for breast, lung, prostate, and childhood cancers,587along with immunotherapies that converted previously fatal588diagnoses into manageable conditions trace directly to NIH-589funded research.590    HIV/AIDS were a death sentence in 1981. No pharmaceutical591company saw a profitable market for treatments. NIH ran the592trials that no one else would run. The result was anti-593retroviral therapy and preexposure prophylaxis. Global AIDS594death has fallen 54 percent since 2010.595    Rare diseases that affect 30 million Americans get studied596at the NIH because no market will fund that research. Every597dollar that is appropriated to the National Institutes of598Health generates $2.46 in economic outputs. NIH-supported work599contributed to 354 of the 356 new drugs that the FDA approved600between 2010 and 2019.601    Cutting the funding source of that pipeline does not slow602it. It ends it.603    The proposed Office of Management and Budget (OMB) Federal604Financial Assistance Rule would give political appointees605authority to terminate funded grants at any time, without606cause, including ongoing clinical trials with enrolled607patients. This is not a hypothetical. NIH has already608terminated or frozen thousands of grants, including hundreds of609ongoing clinical trials, since January 2025, concentrated in610infectious disease, vaccine, and health disparities research.611This proposed rule will make that authority permanent.612    The NIH Director has eliminated the merit score thresholds613that once protected peer review, and political appointees are614right now overriding peer review outcomes to screen grants for615alignment with administrative priorities.616    The proposed OMB rule will also severely restrict617international research. We are managing an H5N1 bird flu618outbreak that has more than 70 documented human cases. We619recently concluded a hantavirus response that required Centers620for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) scientists working621alongside Argentine counterparts.622    The current Ebola outbreak in the Democratic Republic of623Congo is now the third-largest on record, and is outpacing624containment efforts. This rule will curtail exactly that kind625of cooperation that we need.626    NIH lost 1,112 Ph.D.-trained workers from 2025 to early6272026. More than half of the NIH institutes right now are628operating without permanent scientific leadership. The majority629of its advisory councils required by statute to provide630independent oversight have lost more than half of their631members.632    The fundamental choice before this Congress is between a633system where scientists make scientific judgments through634accountable processes and one where political appointees make635those calls instead. That choice will determine whether the636next breakthroughs in cancer, Alzheimer's, antibiotic637resistance, and pandemic defense will happen here, somewhere638else, or perhaps not at all.639    I urge this Committee to support a joint resolution of640disapproval to block the proposed OMB Financial Assistance641Rule. That authority to replace peer review with political642approval has not been granted by Congress and should not be.643    Mrs. Luna. Dr. Ginexi, your time has expired.644    Dr. Ginexi. Thank you very much.645    Mrs. Luna. I will now go to myself for questioning. Thank646you, ma'am.647    My first question is for Mr. O'Neill. MKNAOMI, the joint648CIA-Army program that ran parallel with MKULTRA at Fort649Dietrich to have been run with deliberate minimal650documentation. Army records on Special Operations Division have651apparently been destroyed. In your investigation what did you652learn about MKNAOMI, and do you believe its activities were653even more serious than what we know about MKULTRA?654    Mr. O'Neill. I am sorry. I did not learn anything about655those operations. I kept my focus mostly on Dr. West and his656work. I do know that the only reason I found the documents I657found was because Dr. West accidentally left them in his658papers, and he probably did that because he corresponded with659Gottlieb under Gottlieb's assigned alias, which was Sherman660Grifford, and he addressed all his mail to a post office box661here under a false corporation.662    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Mr. O'Neill. I am just going to real663quick go to Dr. Kinzer. Are you aware of anything that exists664with MKNAOMI in your research? And if you could please press665the button.666    Dr. Kinzer. My understanding of MKNAOMI is that it was a667joint project between the military and the CIA. And there is a668big difference because the MKULTRA project was aimed at seizing669control of the minds of individuals. The Army was interested in670something different, which was trying to use biological agents671in warfare against entire populations. So, MKNAOMI is the place672where these two goals overlapped.673    Mrs. Luna. And that was the 1953 Frank Olson death. Was674that in a way tied to that, from some chatter that we had seen675in----676    Mr. O'Neill. Exactly what the motivation was behind the677decision about Frank Olson, if there was such a decision, is678unknown.679    Mrs. Luna. My next question is also for you, sir. Operation680Paperclip brought over 1,600 German scientists into the U.S.681Government after World War II, including individuals who had682conducted human experimentation in concentration camps. The CIA683and military were aware of their backgrounds and recruited them684anyways.685    In your research, did you find direct documentation between686Paperclip scientists and the development of MKULTRA's687experimental protocols, specifically the use of mescaline,688hypnosis, and sensory deprivation, which were techniques also689documented at Dachau?690    Mr. O'Neill. Absolutely. Kurt Blome, who was the chief of691biological weapons development for the Nazi government came to692work for the CIA. So did Walter Schreiber, who was the surgeon693general of the Nazi army.694    I can just tell a brief story. When I was researching my695book, I found what I think might be the first secret CIA696prison, or black site. It is a nice chalet in Germany. And the697guy who now owns it took me into the basement. He said these698were the cells where the MKULTRA officers, working side-by-side699with Nazis, carried out those gruesome experiments, which were700actually just continuations of the experiments that those Nazis701had been conducting just a few years earlier, right down the702road.703    Mrs. Luna. Just for timeline and clarification, these704experiments were happening after the Nuremberg trials. Correct?705So, the CIA would have known that these were crimes against706humanity.707    Mr. O'Neill. I looked for an episode in which the Nuremberg708doctrines were posted on the wall in some MKULTRA or CIA709office, and I was never able to find any indication that those710Nuremberg principles ever were even consulted, much less711obeyed.712    Mrs. Luna. Thank you. My next question would be for either713witness to comment, Dr. Kinzer or Mr. O'Neill. Both witnesses714have written about the psychiatrist, Louis ``Jolly'' West.715Sidney Gottlieb, who ran the MKULTRA program for the CIA, hired716West as a contractor to conduct research for Subproject 43,717combining hypnotism, drugs, and sensory deprivation to create718dissociative states in which, to quote Mr. Kinzer in his book,719``Poisoner in Chief,'' ``The human mind could be pulled away720from its moorings.''721    Following the assassination of President John F. Kennedy,722West psychiatrically examined Jack Ruby, then in prison for723murdering the President [sic] accused of the assassination of724Lee Harvey Oswald--the assassin accused of murdering President725Kennedy, Lee Harvey Oswald. A report emerged from West's726examination said that Ruby had suffered an acute psychotic727break. Can you explain why Dr. West, in particular, was chosen728to conduct an examination of Jack Ruby alone in his jail cell729with no other psychologist present?730    Dr. Kinzer. I would be happy to. West inserted himself into731the case. When Ruby was--the day after the shooting, West732approached the judge in the preliminary hearings and asked to733be assigned to the case. He was refused by the judge. After734Ruby was convicted at his first trial, an associate of West,735Dr. Hubert Winston Smith, who was a psychiatrist and an736attorney, took over Ruby's defense for his appeal, and he had737already discussed appointing Ruby to the case, or excuse me,738West to the case.739    And as you said, West examined Ruby alone at the jail cell,740and emerged to announce that in the preceding 48 hours he had741had an acute psychotic break from which he would never recover.742He had been declared competent to stand trial the first time by743a panel of, I think, eight psychiatrists. This psychotic break744lasted until his death in 1967. Two months after West examined745him, Ruby testified for the first time, and only time, to the746Warren Commission. It was the first time he ever publicly was747supposed to say what his reasons were for shooting Oswald. The748testimony had to be halted because he was babbling749incoherently, and as Arlin Specter, who was the counsel to the750Commission, wrote in his memoirs, he pulled him aside, and said751that they were cutting off the arms and legs of children in752Albuquerque and El Paso, and he said he was making no sense753whatsoever.754    West in his letters to Gottlieb from 1953, discussed755experiments where he would induce specific mental disorders in756people without their awareness. A year before the Kennedy757assassination, he publicly spoke in Oklahoma City, and talked758about his LSD experiments inducing psychiatric breaks and759psychosis in people with the use of LSD, which, of course,760later contradicted what he told The New York Times when he said761he never used LSD except in animal experimentation.762    Mrs. Luna. What an interesting connection. I am out of763time, but I will be now recognizing Mr. Burlison from Missouri764for 5 minutes.765    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you for your766diligent work on this, and hopefully we will hear back from the767CIA on those boxes of documents that have so many questions768about.769    Dr. Kinzer and Mr. O'Neill, the CIA recruit created MKULTRA770in 1953, supposedly out of fear that the Soviet Union and China771had developed mind control capabilities. Let me go back a772little bit further.773    One of my questions has to do with the event that happened774in 1951 in August, in France. There was a bakery that, I guess775the people that lived in that community, over 250, some say776300, people were poisoned from the bread. It was determined777that that was LSD that was causing all of these people to778hallucinate. Some people died.779    Is there any connection, Dr. Kinzer, to that event, and was780that something that either inspired the MKULTRA program or the781MKNAOMI program? Or is that something that we were involved in782even that early on?783    Dr. Kinzer. I would turn that question back to you. I do784not think anybody really knows the full story of what happened785in that town in France, that the United States could have been786involved, that this could have been part of what was then787called Operation Artichoke, the predecessor for MKULTRA. Seems788to me not beyond the realm of possibility.789    There is a lot of overlap between the ergot enzyme that is790the basis of LSD and certain rye and wheat funguses that can be791used in breads. Was that something intentional? Was it792something the Americans were involved in? I have my suspicions,793but just based on my background as a journalist, I do not794operate on suspicions. So, I would love to see more795investigation of that episode.796    Mr. Burlison. My next question has to do with once the797program began, I think one of the most shocking things that we798have determined is the Operation Midnight Climax that occurred799in the early 1950s, 1960s, where the CIA had safe houses. I800would say, Dr. Kinzer, I mean, obviously this is extremely801disturbing behavior that was happening where you had American802citizens who were being lured into these brothels and then803dosed with a hallucinogenic and then filmed during their sex804acts. Was there anyone prosecuted for these crimes?805    Dr. Kinzer. No, there have been no prosecutions for any806crime related to MKULTRA, as far as I know. To me, the807remarkable aspect of that Operation Midnight Climax was that808there was not even the pretense of scientific experimentation.809The person watching behind the one-way mirror was a grossly810overweight drug officer sitting on a portable toilet and811drinking cocktails out of a pitcher. There was nobody there812that was a scientist or somebody who understood sexual behavior813or human psychology. So, there was no science involved in it at814all.815    I can add a little footnote. When I was researching816``Poisoner in Chief'', I came across a document in which one of817the officers involved in setting up that program, Operation818Midnight Climax, said that Sidney Gottlieb himself used to fly819from Washington out to inspect the project regularly and always820asked that women be provided for him. So, it made me wonder.821    Mr. Burlison. That was my next question. Do you think that822the agents were involved in the sexual encounters?823    Dr. Kinzer. And could that have actually been the reason824why the bordello was opened? There was no prospect of any825serious scientific result out of that project, given the826personnel who were overseeing it. So, those CIA officers,827particularly Gottlieb, involved in overseeing Operation828Midnight Climax certainly were able to take advantage of what829it offered.830    Mr. Burlison. Thank you. And my last question. First, I831want to say thank you to Mr. O'Neill. The book ``Chaos,'' I832checked it out from the Library of Congress, and greatly833appreciate your work there.834    I was intrigued by one of the statements that you made835based on your research, that the MKULTRA program, they were836actually successfully able to replace memories. And because of837that, I am wondering if--and Dr. Kinzer, you can chime in if838you have any knowledge of this--did the program continue, and839do you think that the program in some aspect is still840continuing today?841    Mr. O'Neill. You are asking if the program continued after8421973 when it was halted, supposedly?843    Mr. Burlison. That is right.844    Mr. O'Neill. Honestly, that is a question I am asked at845almost every appearance I do. Is it happening today? Did it846continue? I do not know. I cannot imagine that it did not847though, because the technology that they worked to establish848over 20, 25 years, and spent more money on than any operation849the CIA had ever conducted, was successful. I imagine it is850being used. I have no evidence of it being used, so it is a851complete assumption.852    Dr. Kinzer. I would just add that one of the letters, to853which Mr. O'Neill referred, contains a quote from Mr. Gottlieb854saying that these experiments were necessary, quote, ``in these855times.'' I think it is important to put yourself back in that856mindset where the United States felt that it was under such857overwhelming threat that the loss of a few lives or a few858hundred lives was a small price to pay.859    Commitment to a great cause is one of the most fundamental860justifications for committing immoral acts, and patriotism is861among the most noble of causes. It can be twisted, and it can862be used as an excuse to carry out research under the guise that863this is simply research we are doing to protect ourselves864against others. And I think that is a mindset that may still be865active in some parts of our government.866    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, gentlemen. Thank you, Madam Chair.867My time has expired. I yield back.868    Mr. Crane. [Presiding.] Thank you, Mr. Burlison. I now869recognize myself. Thank you to the witnesses for coming today870to testify about MKULTRA. Dr. Ginexi, you said you worked for871the NIH, is that correct?872    Dr. Ginexi. That is correct.873    Mr. Crane. And you left in 2025?874    Dr. Ginexi. That is correct.875    Mr. Crane. I noticed during your opening statement that you876had nothing to say about the content of this hearing being877about MKULTRA. Your statement seemed to be based more on your878issues with this Administration's attempt to reform and rein in879the NIH. Is that a fair assessment of your opening statement?880    Dr. Ginexi. My opening statement was talking about the881destruction of the NIH and cancellation of grants and political882control of the NIH.883    Mr. Crane. Would you deny that the NIH had involvement in884the funding of the Wuhan lab?885    Dr. Ginexi. I do not have any knowledge about any funding886related to the Wuhan lab.887    Mr. Crane. So, are you denying that the NIH funded the888Wuhan lab?889    Dr. Ginexi. I am basically here to talk about what is890happening right now at the NIH and how we really should be891letting science be driven by scientists and not by politicians,892because that is how we fund cures and make health progress.893    Mr. Crane. Well, with all due respect, ma'am, do you find894it ironic that for years we were told to trust the science, and895then in the aftermath, we have all found out that most of what896we were told during COVID was a complete lie and it was not897scientific at all?898    Dr. Ginexi. The number one thing that I think that we are899doing to destroy trust in American science right now is900canceling clinical trials, in the middle of those clinical901trials. This does incredible harm to the patients who are902receiving experimental treatments, and it really destroys the903trust that we have in how do we recruit patients for future904trials if they are knowing that their trials could just be905simply canceled for political reasons.906    Mr. Crane. Right. I do not think anybody up here would deny907that there has never been anything good that has come out of908the NIH and that you guys have done some good work, but you909just brought up trust. Do you think the NIH has a trust problem910based on how they handled COVID?911    Dr. Ginexi. No, I do not. I think that the NIH is beloved912by the American people because we know about the advances in913human health and cancer treatments and heart disease and914diabetes, and all of the health gains that the research has915produced.916    Mr. Crane. Well, I think you are wrong, ma'am. I think that917the public has a serious mistrust issue with the NIH. Do you918deny that the NIH tried to cover up the origin of COVID?919    Dr. Ginexi. I am not here to testify about that. That is920not my area of science. I have no knowledge of that.921    Mr. Crane. Do you believe that the NIH supported masking922and social distancing when there was really no science to923support that?924    Dr. Ginexi. What I am more concerned about is what is925happening right now to destroy the Biomedical Research926Institute that has been the envy of the world. Right now, we927are ceding our leadership in biomedical research to China. That928is what is happening right now.929    Mr. Crane. What about covering up harmful side effects of930vaccines and the role that the NIH has played in that? What do931you have to say about that, ma'am?932    Dr. Ginexi. The U.S. history of human subjects protection933has evolved greatly. Numerous research improprieties from the9341950s to the 1970s in the United States, including the Tuskegee935Syphilis Study, forced Congress to establish formerly Federal936mandated rules----937    Mr. Crane. I am not asking you about that. You know what I938am asking you about. I am asking you about how NIH handled939COVID. Obviously, this is supposed to be a hearing about940MKULTRA, but when you gave your opening statement, and I do not941even know why you were called to this hearing because you did942not offer anything about MKULTRA. But since you are here and943you are going to defend NIH, I am going to call you out on it.944    [Applause.]945    Mr. Crane. Do you see now what I am talking about? When you946say that the NIH does not have integrity problems and trust947issues, did you hear the applause in this room? That should948tell you right now that you are pretty tone deaf to what the949public thinks about how the NIH handled COVID and the cover-up,950not only the funding of it, but the cover-up involved in the951aftermath. Can you acknowledge that?952    Dr. Ginexi. I am sorry. That is not my understanding.953    Mr. Crane. Thank you. I want to acknowledge Ms. Boebert for954the next round of questioning.955    Ms. Boebert. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to two956of our witnesses who are here to actually talk on our subject957here today.958    Mr. Kinzer, in your book, ``Poisoner in Chief,'' you959describe how Project MKULTRA was authorized by CIA Director960Allen Dulles in April 1953 as an umbrella program for research961into the covert use of biological and chemical materials for962mind control and interrogation. What specific geopolitical and963intelligence concerns, particularly regarding alleged Soviet964and Chinese, quote, ``brainwashing'' and Korean War prisoners,965drove this authorization? And how did Sidney Gottlieb's unique966background and personality and worldwide view shape the967program's direction and methods and ethical boundaries?968    Dr. Kinzer. Let me start by answering your second question969about Gottlieb. He was a very different person from all of the970other senior CIA officers of that era. Most of them came from971silver spoon backgrounds. They went to the same prep schools972and the same Ivy League colleges, and belonged to the same973yacht clubs, and worked for the same law firms and974international banks. Sidney Gottlieb was the son of Orthodox975Jewish refugees from Central Europe. He had a limp. He had a976stutter. He went to Hebrew school. He was so different from all977of the other officers.978    And upon reflection, I think this may not have been an979accident. I think that people at the CIA understood that980whoever had this job was going to be doing some awful, terrible981things that would be very bloody, that they might become known,982and it might be necessary to blame it all on somebody, and they983did not want to have to blame it all on one of their own. So,984Gottlieb actually became the person on whom everything was985blamed.986    In fact, when he testified in secret here in Congress in987the 1970s, he complained that there were documents on which988various signatures had been redacted, but his alone had989remained. So, this, again, is a way of diverting attention away990from the institutional responsibility of the CIA and trying to991blame it on one crazy person.992    As for the international situation at the time, I think it993is very important to understand this because there is a sort of994a parallel to today. The CIA misinterpreted several key995incidents in the world, including those to which you referred,996the trial of the Cardinal Mindszenty in Hungary and then the997return of Korean War prisoners. Neither of those episodes998really had to do with mind control, but in the CIA they were999interpreted that way. This gave the CIA a reason to pretend1000that its research was purely defensive.1001    So, I think when you consider the world situation and the1002sense in Washington that we are surrounded by enemies, that1003becomes a very dangerous environment.1004    Conspiracy theories stem from the growth of the covert1005sphere. There is a great contradiction in American life that we1006pretend to uphold certain principles at home and abroad, but it1007is evident to many Americans that we actually operate in1008opposition to those principles, and we operate by secret and1009anti-democratic means. That contributes to suspicion of1010government, and the very existence of MKULTRA proves that some1011of the wildest fantasies about secret government research are1012actually close to reality. That makes the paranoid mindset seem1013ever more rational.1014    Ms. Boebert. Thank you. I am going to have to cutoff1015several of my questions now, but that was very intriguing, so I1016wanted you to continue.1017    MKULTRA ultimately encompassed at least 149 subprojects,1018involving more than 80 institutions, universities, hospitals,1019prisons, pharmaceutical companies, often funded through cutout1020foundations to conceal CIA sponsorship. Can you detail how1021these funding and operational security mechanisms worked in1022practice?1023    And then just another subset if I do not get back to asking1024a question, did the CIA or government or any of these entities1025ever say that what they were doing with MKULTRA and mind1026control were productive or for the betterment of humanity? Did1027they ever make those claims? Thank you.1028    Dr. Kinzer. As for your second question, I am not aware,1029other than in private communications, that the CIA ever claimed1030that it had made great advances under MKULTRA, because it1031largely denied that MKULTRA ever existed.1032    As for the foundations, yes, Sidney Gottlieb created a1033couple of bogus foundations. They are called cutouts in CIA1034slang. These are foundations that appear to be independent but1035actually are fully funded and controlled by the CIA. It was1036those foundations that approached hospitals and clinics and1037asked them to become involved in research, particularly into1038LSD. So, many of the institutions where these experiments took1039place did not even realize that those foundations were actually1040covers for the CIA.1041    Ms. Boebert. Thank you very much. Madam Chair, I yield.1042    Mrs. Luna. Thank you. I now recognize Representative Mace1043from South Carolina for 5 minutes.1044    Ms. Mace. Thank you so much. Dr. Ginexi, you work with the1045NIH. Correct?1046    Dr. Ginexi. No. I am no longer affiliated with the NIH.1047    Ms. Mace. When did you leave the NIH?1048    Dr. Ginexi. April of last year.1049    Ms. Mace. April of last year. Did you ever speak with1050Anthony Fauci or any of your NIH colleagues when you were there1051about the NIH's role in funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology1052or the development of COVID-19 virus?1053    Dr. Ginexi. No.1054    Ms. Mace. Do you believe that the NIH or Dr. Fauci lied to1055the American people about COVID?1056    Dr. Ginexi. No.1057    Ms. Mace. Are you familiar with Dr. Fauci's statements to1058Congress about COVID?1059    Dr. Ginexi. No.1060    Ms. Mace. You did not watch any of--you worked at the NIH1061and you did not watch any of Dr. Fauci's----1062    Dr. Ginexi. No. I did not work at National Institute of1063Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID).1064    Ms. Mace. Okay. Do you think the COVID shots harm American1065citizens?1066    Dr. Ginexi. No, I do not.1067    Ms. Mace. Do you think that the COVID shots caused turbo1068cancers?1069    Dr. Ginexi. No.1070    Ms. Mace. Do you know if the NIH or NIAID track COVID shot1071injuries or cancers or anything harmful from them?1072    Dr. Ginexi. I am not aware of any harmful tracking. This is1073not my area of expertise, no.1074    Ms. Mace. What is your area of expertise?1075    Dr. Ginexi. I am a research psychologist, and I did not1076work at NIAID.1077    Ms. Mace. And you are here for what reason?1078    Dr. Ginexi. I am here to testify about what is happening to1079the NIH right now.1080    Ms. Mace. You are not here to testify about MKULTRA?1081    Dr. Ginexi. I am not an MKULTRA expert.1082    Ms. Mace. Why did the Dem send you here if you are not an1083MKULTRA expert?1084    Dr. Ginexi. But I am an expert in human subjects1085protection, which is related and in the conduct of human1086subjects research.1087    Ms. Mace. Okay. But you do not know anything about MKULTRA,1088which is the purpose of this hearing.1089    All right, so I have a couple questions for our witnesses1090who are here to talk about MKULTRA. Thank you, gentlemen, Dr.1091Kinzer and Mr. O'Neill. What are some of the worst abuses that1092you are aware of in the MKULTRA program?1093    Dr. Kinzer. I can start by just naming--I will talk about1094one in particular that always sticks in my mind. In the Federal1095prison in Lexington, Kentucky, a group of African American1096inmates was segregated and fed what were described in the1097protocol as double, triple, and quadruple doses of LSD every1098day for 77 days.1099    Ms. Mace. Did they all survive?1100    Dr. Kinzer. We have no idea what happened to them.1101    Ms. Mace. Okay.1102    Dr. Kinzer. This has stuck with me ever since I wrote that1103book. What happened to them? Did they ever find out what was1104given to them? Did they think they were going crazy? Did they--1105I think if the----1106    Ms. Mace. Do you think we are still experimenting on1107prisoners or people in prison today?1108    Dr. Kinzer. I do not have any information about that.1109    Ms. Mace. Okay.1110    Dr. Kinzer. I am hoping there will be another book about1111what is happening now.1112    Ms. Mace. Mr. O'Neill, what are some of the worst abuses in1113MKULTRA?1114    Mr. O'Neill. There were many. The Frank Olson case, which1115was referenced earlier, that was a murder. I do not believe1116that was a suicide. The motivation was because he was going to1117be a whistleblower. He worked at the CIA, he worked in the1118development of biological weapons, and he was planning to go1119public and announce that the U.S. Government was using1120biological weapons in the Korean War. Also, he was going to1121talk or share what he knew about MKULTRA experiments, including1122lethal experiments. And there is a documented case that----1123    Ms. Mace. Gentlemen, how many people do you think died1124through the MKULTRA program or were murdered?1125    Mr. O'Neill. No idea.1126    Dr. Kinzer. If those who died largely were outside the1127United States, many people were experimented to death in that1128safe house in Germany that I visited. And people in the1129neighborhood told me they knew what was going on in that house1130and that people who were experimented to death are now buried1131in what used to be forest plots that are now covered over with1132apartments plots.1133    Ms. Mace. Do you think the German government knew what the1134U.S. Government was doing? Do you think there was a partnership1135there or knowledge?1136    Dr. Kinzer. Yes. There is a memo that was written by the1137German Secret Service to Konrad Adenauer, the Chancellor of1138Germany, telling him Americans are here capturing citizens,1139capturing people, and conducting extreme experiments, which are1140in violation of German law. And Adenauer decided to put that1141aside and not to investigate.1142    Ms. Mace. I have one more question because I have 151143seconds. Is this a massive coverup by the U.S. Government?1144    Dr. Kinzer. It is certainly a coverup of what happened in1145the past.1146    Ms. Mace. Mr. O'Neill?1147    Mr. O'Neill. Oh, absolutely, yes.1148    Ms. Mace. Thank you. And I yield back.1149    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Representative Mace. I now recognize1150Mr. Perry from Pennsylvania for 5 minutes.1151    Mr. Perry. Thank you, Chair. Thanks to the witnesses for1152being here. To Dr. Kinzer and Mr. O'Neill, I want to focus on1153the information that we do have and things of that nature. Do1154we know of--can you name the location, say, the prisons, the1155hospitals, other institutions, and the cutouts, as you1156described, either one of you folks described them, that would1157be familiar to us or the American people? Can you name----1158    Mr. O'Neill. Yes, if I could begin just by saying, at the1159end of the 1977 hearings, Senator Ted Kennedy and Senator1160Daniel Inouye, who were the co-chairs, demanded that there be1161an investigation to find out who were the perpetrators, where1162were the experiments conducted, and most importantly, to find,1163to locate victims, compensate them, notify them, because many1164did not even know they had been experimented on, and give them1165lifetime medical care.1166    President Jimmy Carter and Attorney General Griffin Bell1167said the Federal Government will begin an investigation. That1168never happened. Instead, the CIA created something called the1169Victims Task Force to investigate itself. It was a two-man1170investigation to locate victims, and they only looked for1171people who had been experimented on in the safe houses, because1172I interviewed both of them before they passed away. They1173completely avoided institutional experimental programs at the1174hospitals.1175    And you are asking about the hospitals. The Oklahoma City1176Hospital, Lackland Air Force Base Hospital, the Lexington1177Addiction Center, which Dr. Kinzer referred to, the Holmesburg1178Prison, Vacaville Prison, universities all over the country,1179Yale, Ivy League universities. None of those records--there was1180a criminal investigation that was also supposed to start into1181Gottlieb's destruction of the records. That had been announced1182by the Justice Department. And I interviewed Griffin Bell and1183asked him what happened to all those investigations and what1184happened to all those efforts to locate victims. He said it1185just must have fallen through the cracks.1186    Mr. Perry. So, it was the DOJ that was supposed to1187investigate?1188    Mr. O'Neill. DOJ, the Department of Justice, and they just1189kept passing it off and passing it off.1190    Mr. Perry. Do you know if the DOJ, in their investigation,1191visited the places that you have named?1192    Mr. O'Neill. No, absolutely not from my----1193    Mr. Perry. Wait, hold on a second. They did not or you do1194not know?1195    Mr. O'Neill. Oh, no, no. I asked the two men who did the1196investigation, and they said, ``All we did was look into what1197happened at the safe houses in San Francisco and New York City1198in 1962.''1199    Mr. Perry. So, is it possible that information and1200documentation remains at the prisons, the treatment centers,1201the universities where these things were conducted? Is that1202possible?1203    Mr. O'Neill. Yes. Well, I found Dr. West's records at UCLA1204in his file. Hospital records are really hard to get because of1205Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA)1206laws. And prison records, the Bureau of Prisons do have a lot.1207So yes, it is possible there are still documents buried places.1208    Mr. Perry. What were the average ages, if you know, of the1209people that were experimented on? Were these children? Were1210these middle-aged? Were they----1211    Mr. O'Neill. Well, there were adolescent studies done in1212juvenile detention facilities and jails with kids who were 16,121317, 18 years old, and at institutional schools for wayward1214kids. The National Training School for Boys here in Washington1215D.C. had them. So, it ranged from, I think, adolescent, pre-1216adolescent, you know, through any age.1217    Mr. Perry. If you could describe, either one of you, the1218number of potential victims, if you could hazard a guess. Is1219this hundreds?1220    Mr. O'Neill. There were 149 programs that we know of that1221were subcontracted outside of----1222    Mr. Perry. 149 separate programs.1223    Mr. O'Neill. Yes, outside. And that is what we know of.1224Again, everything we know of is minuscule compared to what was1225really going on. So, I mean, that could have been into the tens1226of thousands, and I believe that is another reason that nothing1227was pursued, because if those people were compensated, it could1228have bankrupted the United States.1229    Mr. Perry. Has there been any recent attempt to find,1230locate, identify victims of this case?1231    Mr. O'Neill. Not that I know of.1232    Dr. Kinzer. I would just add that there has been1233considerable progress in this regard in Canada. There was1234MKULTRA research going on at a psychiatric hospital in Canada,1235and the Canadian government has made a real effort to try to1236find out who the victims were and also to compensate them and1237to provide them with medical treatment. So, if we are looking1238for an example of a place where it was done better, even though1239it was on a much smaller scale, Canada would be a place to1240look.1241    Mr. Perry. So, other than embarrassment to the Federal1242Government, maybe agencies involved and particular individuals1243who are probably likely deceased at this point, what is the1244reason for the mass redaction of the information that we do1245have? Has any reasoning been given?1246    Mr. O'Neill. Shame.1247    Mr. Perry. I am sorry?1248    Mr. O'Neill. Shame.1249    Mr. Perry. That is what I am saying, other than1250embarrassment. But I think it stands to reason that probably1251the individuals involved in conducting and authorizing this1252activity are probably all deceased----1253    Mr. O'Neill. Sure.1254    Mr. Perry [continuing]. At this point. Is there any reason1255to believe otherwise?1256    Dr. Kinzer. No.1257    Mr. O'Neill. I make those arguments in my FOIA requests,1258but it does not get me anywhere. I do not know about you, Dr.1259Kinzer.1260    Mr. Perry. All right. My time has expired. I yield.1261    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Representative Perry. I am now going1262to go to a second line of questions, so I will be recognizing1263myself followed by, I believe, Representative Boebert and1264either of the Representatives if they would like to join in.1265    I wanted to elaborate further, Dr. Kinzer, on what you had1266stated about potentially there being bodies, the locations,1267Germany, because I am going to reach out to the German1268government after this to get the ball rolling on that if that1269is indeed the case.1270    Can you just elaborate further on what you were hearing1271from people in that area, what they were saying, and then also1272to potential locations of bodies?1273    Dr. Kinzer. First of all, the memo that Chancellor Adenauer1274received is on the record. You can find that memo warning that1275these operations are going on. I did speak to people who lived1276in that area and they all understood. Some of them had1277cooperated with an investigation by a German magazine, Der1278Spiegel, that called that house the ``CIA Torture Center.'' And1279in that article it said, ``There were deaths, but the number is1280not known.'' So, it was a secret to us, but what we were doing1281in that house was really not even a secret to the people in the1282neighborhood.1283    It reminds me of the bombing of Cambodia. It was a secret1284to us, but if you were living in Cambodia, you would have known1285about it.1286    So, I think there is a fruitful ground for research looking1287into what happened in Germany and seeing what can be found out1288about these huge, hugely destructive and devastating projects1289that were essentially systematic torture going on in this house1290and who knows how many others.1291    Mrs. Luna. Just to confirm too, when you found the initial1292transcript with the Chancellor or correspondence, was there a1293response from the U.S. Government to the Germans?1294    Dr. Kinzer. No. The U.S. Government would possibly have1295advised Adenauer not to pursue it, but I do not think Adenauer1296would have even needed to be told that. He would see it. He1297would understand his close partnership with the United States1298made it impossible for him to criticize anything the United1299States was doing. Do not forget this was not so long after the1300end of the Second World War. So, no, there was no effort by the1301United States ever to reveal anything about what happened in1302Germany.1303    And in fact, one of the FOIA requests that I made that was1304never fulfilled, and one that I would urge you to pursue is,1305what was Sidney Gottlieb doing during two years in Germany? He1306went to Germany and went to live there as a case officer. I was1307never able to find out what did he do during two years in1308Germany. There were huge numbers of MKULTRA experiments going1309on in Germany, including a number that were fatal. That would1310be a very interesting cache of documents to find.1311    Mrs. Luna. We will definitely be following up. My next1312question would be for either Dr. Kinzer or Mr. O'Neill.1313Declassified CIA records have revealed that officers deployed1314overseas have used U.S. Agency for International Development1315(USAID) funding as an official cover, or USAID as an official1316cover for operational work that had nothing to do with the1317mission of USAID, i.e., humanitarian aid, medical relief, et1318cetera. In some cases, CIA officers operated under USAID cover1319engaged in lethal activity in places such as Vietnam, running1320assassination missions during the war in-country from 1965 to13211975.1322    And since MKULTRA seems to have found its origin in drug1323experiments conducted on prisoners overseas and first by the SS1324in Nazi Germany and then by U.S. intelligence in camps captured1325from the Germans, do you believe that USAID may have been used1326overseas to further influence or further the MKULTRA for1327example, on prisoners of war? Since part of USAID's mission was1328to administer drugs to the poor and needy populations, would1329the organization have abused its mandate by poisoning foreign1330populations or creating disassociated states for interrogation1331or torture?1332    Dr. Kinzer. I cannot speak directly to AID, but it is1333certainly true that during this period after the Second World1334War the United States was using publicly announced and official1335U.S. Government agencies to carry out covert action. We now1336know, for example, that five percent of all of the money1337appropriated for the Marshall Plan was diverted for covert1338activities. A number of U.S. agencies were used as cover by1339covert operatives, and that AID could have been one of them1340sounds very likely to me.1341    Mr. O'Neill. And the National Institute of Mental Health1342(NIMH) admitted to allowing itself to be used for covert1343funding of MKULTRA experiments in the 1970s, when the operation1344was disclosed.1345    Mrs. Luna. Thank you. I now recognize Representative1346Burchett for 5 minutes.1347    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Chairlady. Thank you all for being1348here. I remembered when all the talk about MKULTRA broke and1349then they were talking about lawsuits, and there were lawsuits1350and CIA and the Federal Government said that this did not1351exist, and then they came back and said, ``Well, it does exist,1352but we are not doing it anymore.'' I guess my question to you1353all first is which lie do we believe?1354    [Applause.]1355    Mr. Burchett. Thank you. Obviously, there was an open bar1356before this thing started, so thank you all. But Dr. Kinzer?1357    Dr. Kinzer. I put myself in the----1358    Mr. Burchett. Hit your mic, brother. You are not on the1359mic. It is an old CIA trick. I am just kidding.1360    Dr. Kinzer. I put myself in the place of one of those1361senior CIA officers, and I am thinking to myself like the ones1362back in the 1950s, ``Well, other people must be doing this. We1363would be falling behind if we do not do it. And nobody is1364looking over our shoulders,'' and that, I think, is your job.1365So, I think there is a definite air of urgency and total1366secrecy. If any current research is going on and if it is1367conducted in any comparable level of secrecy to the original1368MKULTRA, it is very deeply secret.1369    Mr. Burchett. But one thing you said though. It is going to1370be hard for Congress to act when they are so dadgum1371compromised. Let us just be honest. I mean, you all are in the1372business of twisting ears and telling us things that we have1373done, and that sways a lot of people up here. Somebody does not1374want to wreck a marriage or their business or lose this1375glamorous job that we have. And so, I suspect that has a lot of1376play into it. Sorry to interrupt you. I apologize.1377    Dr. Kinzer. All I mean to say, is that I think if there are1378such projects going on inside the U.S. Government, there might1379be a sense that we can do this without any hostile supervision.1380    Mr. Burchett. What are the possibilities that what we have1381learned in MKULTRA, now that it has advanced so much to1382algorithms and the computer and getting to loners, that some of1383these loners could, through this just mass propagation of1384whatever you are doing, could cause someone to maybe take a1385shot at a President?1386    Mr. O'Neill. I know there is a lot of speculation out there1387about the Butler shooting, and I guess even the Charlie Kirk1388shooting. I just hate to speculate, because I do not know. I1389have no firsthand knowledge whether those guys were programmed1390through radio waves or through their computer activity. So, I1391would never hazard a guess except to say what I have already1392said, that they develop means that we have never been told1393about many, many years ago, and I imagine they have evolved to1394be much more effective now, so anything is possible.1395    Mr. Burchett. Let me interrupt you one more time, and I1396apologize again. But don't you think that they could cast this1397broad net through these algorithms and other things, and maybe1398they do not know the exact person it is going to affect, but1399they know what type of person it is going to affect, and they1400know it is going to happen? And that way they cannot predict1401when it is going to happen, but they think it will happen, and1402then that way they can sort of wash their hands of this whole1403thing and say, ``Well, we did not have anything to do with1404it,'' but in effect they really did because they put this out1405there and they continue to put it out there, through whatever1406method you are talking about? Go ahead, guys. I am sorry.1407Ma'am, if you want to jump in.1408    Ms. Boebert. She is with NIH.1409    Mr. Burchett. Okay. Doctor, go ahead.1410    Dr. Kinzer. It sounds to me like you are describing1411something like the Martin Luther King assassination. The FBI1412did not carry it out, but it created such a climate, just1413denouncing King as the most dangerous man in America and1414putting out all this material about how he was helping1415communists, that they must have thought, ``It is going to1416filter down. Somebody will take action and then we can say we1417did not have anything to do with it.''1418    Mr. Burchett. And James Earl Ray was a third-rate thief. He1419made an incredible shot, one foot on a commode, one foot in a1420bathtub, leaning out of a window basically. And the next day,1421or that afternoon, all the shrubbery was cut in front of the1422flop house he was staying in. There is a lot on that one that1423will never be discussed. I have some friends that were there,1424so I guess I am on pretty close to firsthand knowledge. But1425yes, I am sorry. I am probably going to get audited when I walk1426out of the room. I know it. So, thank you. Chairlady, I yield1427back my four seconds.1428    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Representative Burchett. I would like1429to now recognize Representative Boebert for 5 minutes.1430    Ms. Boebert. Thank you. And I would love to let you1431gentlemen just talk some here, but when we are bringing up1432operations like NAOMI and MKULTRA, there is Operation1433Mockingbird that was going on at the same time as MKULTRA, and1434it really ties into what Congressman Burchett was talking about1435with radio waves, where we have these, like, a Venn diagram of1436individual people and the military casting a broader net. So,1437you have the radio waves, computer activity, the Operation1438Mockingbird, the programming that is taking place.1439    So, what do you see in relation to what was happening then1440and what we are seeing now that could be types of the same kind1441of programs and even using direct-energy weapons or the like?1442Mr. O'Neill, you can begin.1443    Mr. O'Neill. I would just like to say one thing. There was1444an objective outlined in the early proposals for MKULTRA to do1445experimentation to see whether they could do mass conversion,1446you know, convert entire populations. I think that had1447something to do with the France incident that you were talking1448about earlier. Again, today it is all speculation, but back1449then they were trying to use psychological means to see how you1450could influence people's thoughts. And Mockingbird played into1451that, which, if people do not know, that was where they had CIA1452assets or co-opted people in the media who would write1453basically propaganda and try to control the thoughts and1454beliefs of the population to what the CIA needed. And is it1455still going on today? I would be surprised if it was not.1456    Ms. Boebert. Sure. I think we saw it even during COVID with1457all of the NIH funding that went to COVID and the Wuhan lab and1458then everything that came out of that, trying to make people1459believe in something that was not there.1460    Dr. Kinzer, do you have anything on this?1461    Dr. Kinzer. I would say only that in the modern age, maybe1462radio waves and drugs are not necessary to control people's1463minds. We have such a great advertising propaganda, press,1464social media collaboration that certain opinions are1465marginalized, and real debate is frustrated because people are1466not given access to full amounts of information. So, that is a1467way of controlling minds of populations that does not even1468require sophisticated electronic or psychopharmacological1469means.1470    Ms. Boebert. Anything else you would like to add for our1471next 2 minutes here? Maybe you have answers to questions we1472have not asked.1473    Dr. Kinzer. I would just like to reiterate something that I1474said in response to your earlier question----1475    Ms. Boebert. Yes, sir.1476    Dr. Kinzer [continuing]. And that is that there is a reason1477why conspiracy theories are so widespread in America. It has to1478do with the disassociation between what we say we are and do1479and what we really are and do. This has become more and more1480clear to more and more people. Therefore, they are suspicious1481of nefarious dealings by the United States, and they are also1482suspicious of other things that are not nefarious at all. But1483there is just this mentality that is created by the covert1484sphere, and that is what makes people realize that things that1485used to seem really farfetched are not so farfetched after all.1486    Ms. Boebert. Yes. Well, you know, Congress, we create these1487agencies, and we even provide their funding. We appropriate1488that funding. And then they come before us often and are too1489big to even answer simple questions that we have and be held to1490account. So, it does cause for a lot of deceit, a lot of doubt1491in the American people, and certainly within us as Members of1492Congress, when these agencies refuse to answer to us, the1493branch of government that actually creates them and provides1494their funding. And then, of course, the American taxpayer whose1495money is being stolen to fund all of their programs and1496agencies.1497    So, I think that would be another reason how these1498conspiracy theories grow, because government has grown so big1499and will not answer to the people. Maybe they just think the1500people are too dumb to understand, but certainly, we want to1501get answers to the people. And I appreciate you gentlemen for1502being here today. Madam Chair, I yield.1503    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Representative Boebert.1504Representative Burlison, do you have any further questions?1505Okay. I now recognize Representative Burlison for 5 minutes.1506    Mr. Burlison. Mr. O'Neill, going back to Charles Manson and1507the Helter Skelter incident, can you explain how in the world1508someone who was an illiterate musician, that seemed to be not1509exactly the brightest person, somehow became a cult leader and1510was able to, you know, inspire all of these individuals to do1511crazy things?1512    Mr. O'Neill. Unfortunately, I spent 20 years trying to find1513out how that happened, and what I was able to prove was that1514from the moment Manson was released from Federal prison in15151967, he violated his parole, went to the Bay Area without1516permission, and was immediately put under the supervision of a1517Federal parole officer who basically gave him leniency as he1518gathered his group of followers, gave them drugs, dominated1519them, turned them into, more or less, subservient robots who1520would do anything he said. All that happened under the watchful1521eye of a parole officer named Roger Smith, who was also doing1522drug research at the same clinic that Jolly West had set up his1523operation to recruit subjects. All the way until 1969, when1524Manson finally ordered the murders that he was later convicted1525of, he had been arrested repeatedly for escalating crimes,1526beginning with petty thievery, stealing cars, and then rape,1527attempted murder, drug possession. Each time, not only was he1528not prosecuted, his parole was not violated.1529    So, the Federal Government in some capacity, enabled him to1530do what he did and flourish until these crimes happened. And in1531my book, I make a case, and it is a theoretical case, that it1532was part of an operation called CHAOS, also with the CIA, that1533we have not talked about today because it really does not have1534anything to do with drug research, but it was created to1535neutralize what the government believed was a revolution that1536was happening in America in the 1960s, beginning with the anti-1537war movement, and then the Black Militancy movement and the1538Panthers. So, it is kind of a big stew, a cauldron of1539possibilities that Manson emerged from all that, when I do not1540think he should have.1541    Mr. Burlison. Yes. It is fascinating that you have an1542individual, Jolly West, who was working with this parole1543officer. Do you think the parole officer was making the1544connection so that the drugs were then flowing through?1545    Mr. O'Neill. Well, the parole officer was, at the same time1546he was supervising Manson's parole, running a research project1547called the Amphetamine Research Project out of that clinic and1548that was studying amphetamines and violence and drugs and group1549behavior in gangs in the Bay Area.1550    Mr. Burlison. And----1551    Mr. O'Neill. Again, I hate to speculate. I know it sounds1552like a cop-out, but when you see the tentacles that cross paths1553with Manson, when he got to Los Angeles as well, I believe that1554he was manipulated, and at the very least, given freedom to do1555what he did while he was being observed.1556    Mr. Burlison. And then the same individual, Jolly West,1557ends up in Oklahoma. Correct? So, was he operating out of1558Oklahoma during this time with Mr. Manson?1559    Mr. O'Neill. When he contracted with the CIA, he was at1560Lackland Air Force Base. He was the chief psychiatrist at the1561hospital, so he began his experiments there. A year after the1562letter that I quoted in my statement, where he was describing1563what he wanted to do, a year later, on July 3, 1954, a three1564year old girl was abducted and found later in a gravel pit,1565murdered next to a car that had been abandoned.1566    And the search party that found the little girl's body was1567approached by a man who was an airman at the base, and he asked1568them where he was and how he had gotten there. He was arrested1569for the murder and described by the military officers who had1570him in custody as being in a trance or daze. He did not have1571any drugs in his system. He did not recognize his wife when she1572was brought to see him, and at his trial, where Jolly West was1573his advising psychiatrist who examined him----1574    Mr. Burlison. Of course. Of course.1575    Mr. O'Neill [continuing]. It emerged that he had actually1576been being treated at the hospital at Lackland in an1577experimental program to cure his chronic, debilitating migraine1578headaches, and he was executed four years later.1579    Mr. Burlison. And then years later, he ends up volunteering1580to handle Jack Ruby?1581    Mr. O'Neill. West does, yes.1582    Mr. Burlison. All right. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chair.1583    Mrs. Luna. So, just before we wrap up, is it in your expert1584opinion that Jack Ruby and Manson were assets of the1585intelligence agencies specifically pertaining to MKULTRA? Were1586they MKULTRA victims?1587    Mr. O'Neill. Yes. Theoretically, Manson, I have never been1588able to prove absolutely. Jack Ruby, I believe, this is1589something else--the Warren Commission investigation, on the1590Warren Commission was Allen Dulles, the former CIA director,1591who authorized and ran MKULTRA until he was fired by President1592Kennedy. The liaison to the committee for the CIA, who handled1593the information coming from the CIA back and forth to the1594Warren Commission, was Richard Helms, who was a direct1595supervisor of Jolly West. They knew who West was. They knew1596that--what West was capable of, and what they had paid him to1597do, and what he had reported to them that he could do,1598including inducing mental disorders in people. That was never1599disclosed to the Commission as far as anyone knows. So, I1600believe that West was put in there to keep Jack Ruby from1601telling his story.1602    Mrs. Luna. Wow. In closing, I just want to thank you all1603for being here today, and we will be following up, Dr. Kinzer,1604on your request to fully redact, I will be following up1605personally with the Director of the CIA, the MKULTRA files that1606we do have. Also, as I noted earlier, there will be more that1607will be declassified, specifically pertaining to newly found1608records that were located in what we were discussing earlier.1609    I did also want to just state that, for the record, in1610regards to what statements were made earlier regarding the1611German government, we will also be following up on that. If1612there are indeed people that were victims of this that have1613been buried, we would like to know who those people are and who1614their families are as well, in order to correct the historical1615wrongdoings of this government.1616    Without further ado, I would like to state that all Members1617have five legislative days within to submit materials and1618additional written questions for the witnesses that will be1619then forwarded to them. If there is no further business,1620without objection, the Task Force stands adjourned.1621    [Whereupon, at 11:34 a.m., the Task Force was adjourned.]16221623                            [all]