H.Hrg.119

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34               SANCTUARY POLICIES: VICTIMS' PERSPECTIVES5=======================================================================67                                HEARING89                               BEFORE THE1011                SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY,12                        SECURITY, AND ENFORCEMENT1314                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY1516                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1718                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1920                             SECOND SESSION2122                               __________2324                         TUESDAY, JUNE 30, 20262526                               __________2728                           Serial No. 119-762930                               __________3132         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3334[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3536               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov3738                               __________3940                U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4164-139                 WASHINGTON : 202642=======================================================================4344                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4546                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair4748DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking49ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member50TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York51THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California52THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee53CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,54SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia55BEN CLINE, Virginia                  TED LIEU, California56LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington57JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       J. LUIS CORREA, California58TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania59BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JOE NEGUSE, Colorado60HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia61LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina62WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont63RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois64KEVIN KILEY, California              SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California65GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida66BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York67MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas68ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       SUMMER LEE, Pennsylvania69DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas70BRANDON GILL, Texas71MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington72                                 ------7374            SUBCOMMITTEE ON IMMIGRATION INTEGRITY, SECURITY,75                            AND ENFORCEMENT7677                   TOM McCLINTOCK, California, Chair7879ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                  PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington,80TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin                   Ranking Member81CHIP ROY, Texas                      JERROLD NADLER, New York82TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California83JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania84TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina85BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois86WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas87RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          ZOE LOFGREN, California88GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            STEVE COHEN, Tennessee89BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           Vacant90ROBERT F. ONDER, Missouri            Vacant91DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas                Vacant92BRANDON GILL, Texas9394               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director95                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director9697                           C O N T E N T S9899                              ----------100101                         Tuesday, June 30, 2026102                           OPENING STATEMENTS103104                                                                   Page105106The Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the Subcommittee on107  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State108  of California..................................................     1109The Honorable Pramila Jayapal, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee110  on Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the111  State of Washington............................................     3112The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary113  from the State of Ohio.........................................     5114The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on115  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     6116117                               WITNESSES118119Joe Abraham, Father of victim Katie Abraham120  Oral Testimony.................................................    13121  Prepared Testimony.............................................    15122Sarah Pierce, Director of Social Policy, Third Way123  Oral Testimony.................................................    24124  Prepared Testimony.............................................    26125Sheriff Gary W. Redman, Amador County Sheriff's Office126  Oral Testimony.................................................    44127  Prepared Testimony.............................................    46128Jessica A. Gorman, Mother of victim Sheridan Grace Gorman129  Oral Testimony.................................................    49130  Prepared Testimony.............................................    53131132          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING133134All materials submitted for the record by the Subcommittee on135  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement are listed136  below..........................................................    91137138An article entitled, ``Seven in 10 ICE arrests under Trump have139  criminal histories,'' Dec. 26, 2025, Washington Examiner,140  submitted by the Honorable Tom McClintock, Chair of the141  Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and142  Enforcement from the State of California, for the record143A joint statement from Americans for Immigrant Justice, Asian144  Pacific Institute on Gender-Based Violence, ASISTA Immigration145  Assistance, Esperanza United, Human Rights Watch, and Tahirih146  Justice Center, Jun, 30, 2026, submitted by the Honorable147  Pramila Jayapal, Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on148  Immigration Integrity, Security, and Enforcement from the State149  of Washington, for the record150151                      SANCTUARY POLICIES: VICTIMS'152                              PERSPECTIVES153154                              ----------155156                         Tuesday, June 30, 2026157158                        House of Representatives159160            Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security,161162                            and Enforcement163164                       Committee on the Judiciary165166                             Washington, DC167168    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:41 p.m., in169Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Tom170McClintock [Chair of the Subcommittee] presiding.171    Members present: Representatives McClintock, Jordan, Biggs,172Tiffany, Roy, Van Drew, Moore, Hunt, Fry, Grothman, Knott,173Onder, Jayapal, Raskin, Nadler, Scanlon, and Ross.174    Mr. McClintock. A quorum is present, and the Subcommittee175will come to order. Without objection, the Chair is authorized176to declare a recess at any time. I want to welcome everyone to177today's hearing on the consequences of sanctuary policies. I178would especially like to note the presence of many sheriffs, as179well as Angel Families who are here today to watch these180proceedings.181    Without objection, Ms. Miller and Mr. Lawler will be182permitted to participate in today's hearing for the purpose of183introducing witnesses. Hearing none, so ordered. Without184objection, Mr. Baum-gartner will be permitted to participate in185today's hearing for the purpose of questioning the witnesses if186a Member yields him time for that purpose. Without objection,187so ordered.188    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.189During this session, this Subcommittee is focused on so-called190sanctuary laws that put criminal illegal aliens back on the191streets, rather than turning them over to Federal authorities192for deportation as the law requires. The sole effect is not to193impede general immigration enforcement; it is specifically to194prevent deporting criminals.195    The toll of death and destruction caused by these policies196is heartbreaking. As the death toll of innocent Americans197continues to mount, Republicans will continue to avail victims'198families the opportunity to describe the catastrophic impact199that these policies have caused them, two of those families200will address this shortly.201    One is the mother of Sheridan Gorman. On March 19th this202year, Sheridan Gorman, an 18-year-old freshman at Loyola203University, went to a Chicago park with friends to watch the204Northern Lights. Instead, she was shot by an illegal alien from205Venezuela allowed into this country by the Biden206Administration. Within months of the illegal alien's release at207the border, he was arrested for shoplifting.208    Now, he should have been turned over to authorities for209deportation then. Instead, Chicago's sanctuary law released him210back into the community, where he had no legal right to be, and211Sheridan Gorman is dead as a result. A few weeks ago, we heard212from the mother of Stephanie Minter, murdered by an illegal213alien with dozens of prior arrests, each time returned into the214community by Fairfax County officials.215    Their excuse was that despite an $83 million annual budget216for the county sheriff, they just didn't have the resources to217pick up the phone and inform ICE that they had custody of an218illegal alien so that alien could be deported. When I asked219them how much it would cost to make a simple phone call to ICE,220and whether Stephanie Minter's life was worth the cost of that221phone call, I got no response.222    The murderer's multiple releases were also enabled by a223far-Left prosecutor who crafts sweetheart deals for illegal224aliens so that they can avoid immigration consequences for225their criminality. None of this makes any sense. Last year226these sanctuary jurisdictions refused to honor at least 17,864227ICE detainer requests of illegal aliens accused of committing228other crimes.229    Instead, these aliens who had no right to be in this230country were released onto our streets to re-offend at will.231Illinois and California are just two examples of these renegade232jurisdictions. Their refusal to cooperate with Federal233immigration officials terrorized communities, incentivizes234crime, and undermines the rule of law.235    In Illinois alone, one State, in just 11 months,236authorities blew off 1,768 ICE detainers, and instead released237these criminals back onto the streets, despite crimes ranging238from weapons offenses, to burglaries, and to homicides.239According to documents obtained by this Committee, the Cook240County Sheriff's Office alone released 408 criminal aliens from241its custody in 2025 instead of honoring active ICE detainers.242    The Democrats complain bitterly that we are focused on this243tragedy. Well, I can assure them that the Republican Majority244will continue to expose the human toll of their policies until245they are rectified. I am sure we will re-hear their complaints246that ICE arrests in communities have led to confrontations with247violent demonstrators.248    Those arrests that require squads of officers, and that put249both officers and bystanders in danger would not be necessary250if those aliens were turned over to ICE while in the custody of251local-law enforcement. They also tell us that refusing to252cooperate with ICE fosters trust with the illegal alien253population. Well, this begs the obvious question, can legal254residents trust sanctuary jurisdictions to protect them and255their families?256    By the way, a U visa is already available to illegal aliens257who are witnesses or victims to crime. Earlier this year the258Judiciary Committee passed a Shut Down Sanctuary Policies Act.259It prohibits sanctuary jurisdictions from restricting260communications with ICE about criminal aliens. It empowers261local authorities in sanctuary jurisdictions to work with262Federal immigration officials.263    It forbids local jurisdictions from shielding criminals264from ICE. It restricts certain Federal grant funding to265sanctuary jurisdictions that thwart Federal law, and it266provides a private right of action for the victims of these267sanctuary policies. All that is simple commonsense. We268shouldn't need a bill to force State and local officials to269protect American citizens over dangerous foreign nationals.270    Yet, not a single Democrat on this Committee voted for that271legislation. In addition to the grieving families of Sheridan272Gorman and Katie Abraham who are here today, we are also joined273by Sheriff Gary Redman of Amador County, California, from my274district. He is dealing with an epidemic of illegal alien crime275centered on illegal marijuana grows.276    Yet, forbidden by State law from cooperating or even277communicating with ICE to protect his citizens from this278scourge. The Shut Down Sanctuary Policies Act would free him279from these constraints. It is inconceivable that such a280reckless and dangerous policy as the so-called sanctuary laws281could be supported by a major political party.282    As we will see again today, that is the current position of283the Democratic Socialist Party. Not a fringe element, but the284actual elected representatives of that party. I look forward to285hearing from our witnesses, and I now yield to the Ranking286Member for her opening statement.287    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. Let me start by288offering my deepest condolences to you, Ms. Gorman, and to you,289Mr. Abraham, for the loss of your children. As a parent myself,290I can think of no greater loss, and I appreciate you being here291to share their stories and their lives with us. Unfortunately,292this hearing is the fourth time in this Committee that we have293had a hearing on sanctuary cities, the fourth time.294    There are many other things that we could be doing other295than this. I would have loved to have had some hearings on the296unconstitutionality of the President's Executive Order on297eliminating birthright citizenship. This is something that the298Supreme Court just ruled today in a 63 Majority was299unconstitutional.300    Yet this was an Executive Order that caused so much fear301and trauma across the country, we could have been discussing302that, but we haven't. Instead, we have had this series of303hearings that are designed to attack the very trust policies304that research has shown over and over again have actually saved305lives and kept communities safer.306    By maintaining the necessary and important division between307the enforcement of Federal civil immigration laws, and the308enforcement of local criminal laws. This division ensures that309people don't fear law enforcement, who try to enforce310immigration law, and that community members will actually come311forward and be witnesses in these prosecutions to report crimes312when they happen.313    The Trump Administration however has ignored decades of314research and has done the exact opposite. They have blurred the315lines between immigration enforcement and law enforcement so316much that they essentially no longer exist. They have destroyed317trust in communities, created fear, and even deported witnesses318to important crimes so that then those crimes cannot be319effectively prosecuted.320    On top of that, the Trump Administration has diverted over32128,000 officers from their critical law enforcement activities322to work on immigration enforcement instead. This has led to323nonimmigration criminal prosecutions falling to their lowest324point in decades. Gun prosecutions have fallen more than 10325percent. Investigators worked 33 percent fewer hours on child326exploitation cases.327    Nearly one in every five FBI agents have been reassigned to328arrest immigrants instead of conducting complex criminal329investigations of corruption, espionage, terrorism,330cyberattacks, and transnational gangs, all things that are331necessary to keep Americans safe. Similarly, around one in332every two Drug Enforcement Agency agents, two in three Bureau333of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives agents, and one334in five U.S. Marshals have all been reassigned to immigration335enforcement.336    From within ICE, thousands of Homeland Security337investigations, HSI agents, are focused on immigration338enforcement instead of their stated mission of combating339transnational crimes such as drug and weapons smuggling, child340exploitation, and human trafficking. During the immigration341enforcement surge in Minnesota, Federal prosecutions of gun and342drug offenses dropped by nearly 90 percent--90 percent.343    The DHS's former Chief of Staff says that as a result of344all this, our government is quote,345346        Asleep at the wheel, and less prepared to stop terrorist347        attacks than at any point since 9/11.348349For what, what are the results of that? Arrests of immigrants350without a single criminal conviction surged by 770 percent.351    These immigrants of all immigration statuses get locked up,352or deported, or disappeared at tremendous cost to you, the353taxpayers, and to the traumatized communities that are left354behind. That is not a public safety agenda, that is a public355safety disaster. Let us just remind people about what this356immigration enforcement strategy of this Administration has led357to.358    Under Donald Trump, ICE doubled in size. Instead of funding359Americans' healthcare, or housing, or childcare, Republicans360poured over $210 billion, $210 billion into ICE and CBP. The361DHS officers killed two U.S. citizens in cold blood in362Minnesota; have we had a hearing on that? No, we haven't.363    They beat and detained countless U.S. citizens for364exercising First Amendment rights and broke down doors without365a warrant in violation of the Fourth Amendment. ICE has366imprisoned 400,000 people just in the interior of this country367since Trump came in. Parents, children, military veterans, U.S.368citizens, people on valid visas, and people who have never369committed a single crime.370    The private prison companies who incarcerate these people371get massive profits. They turn around, and then contribute to372Republicans and Trump's campaigns, while maintaining the most373horrific conditions inside the prisons that have led to a374record 51 deaths in ICE Detention just since President Trump375took office. What does all this do for Americans? It hurts376them.377    Their communities get torn apart, their kids lose friends,378their businesses suffer from lack of workers, and guess what?379Americans actually lose jobs due to harsh immigration380enforcement. The Brookings Institution looked at increased ICE381enforcement in 86 metro areas in Red and Blue States and found382that up to 297,000 American born workers have lost their jobs383as a result of ICE's increased enforcement.384    That all needs to stop. Our hearings should be on how385public safety has been hurt thanks to this Administration's386policies, or on holding people who killed and detained American387citizens accountable. On the numerous times that this388Administration denies due process in violation of our389Constitution. That is what the American people want, not more390of what we are doing today.391    More than 60 percent of Americans now disapprove of Donald392Trump's immigration policies. Americans want Trump and393Republicans to focus on lowering grocery prices, stop giving394tax breaks to billionaires while stripping healthcare from tens395of millions of Americans. Just like Trump has insulted396Americans by refusing to sign the most consequential,397bipartisan housing bill in a generation, calling it398unimportant, and a quote ``Yawn.''399    He is insulting Americans by continuing these harsh400immigration policies that hurt safety and hurt opportunity for401all Americans. Republicans instead want to coerce States and402localities into doing the Federal Government's job, despite403numerous court orders that have declared immigration detainers404unlawful violations of the Fourth Amendment.405    They want to force local police departments to prioritize406their limited resources on immigration enforcement instead of407encouraging all community members to come forward and report408crimes without worrying about theirs or a loved one's409immigration status. I hope that this Committee does hold410hearings on the unconstitutionality of this Administration's411policies.412    Certainly, when Republicans are no longer in office after413November, we will do just that in the Majority. I look forward414to hearing from all our witnesses today. I yield back.415    Mr. McClintock. Appreciate the warning, the gentlelady416yields back. The Chair is now pleased to recognize the Chair of417the House Judiciary Committee for an opening statement.418    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We don't want to coerce419anyone; we just want to stop this stupid policy of sanctuary420jurisdiction that led to the tragedy that these families are421going to testify and talk about today. The gentlelady from422Washington, the Ranking Member, said, ``this is the fourth423hearing on sanctuary jurisdictions.''424    I will have five, six, seven, or eight, I will have425whatever amount of hearings it takes to stop a policy that is426so ridiculous. Because understand, never forget what sanctuary427jurisdiction is in the simplest of terms, politicians tell428local-law enforcement like Sheriff Redman, don't work with429Federal law enforcement in enforcing Federal law, that is dumb.430    It is not only dumb, it results in bad things happening to431families. That is why we are having the fourth hearing, and432like I said, we will do whatever, and my guess is the Chair is433willing to do whatever amount of hearings it takes to get our434legislation across the finish line. Our Sanctuary Jurisdiction435Shutdown Act of 2026.436    Understand this as well, it is a systematic--I have said437this every single hearing, all four times, it is a systematic438plan of the Lefts.439    Step 1. They let in 10 million illegal migrants during the440Biden Administration, no border, just let in 10 million people.441    Step 2. Create sanctuary jurisdictions all over this442country, 18 cities, 11 States, three large counties like443Fairfax County.444    Where the prosecutor there gives special deals to migrants445who commit crimes, unequal treatment to Americans frankly. Let446in 10 million, create sanctuary jurisdictions, 18 cities, 11447States, three counties, and the District of Columbia.448    Step 3. Don't pay the guys who do the enforcement, don't449pay ICE. They did that for 110 days; they wouldn't fund the450guys who do the enforcement. That is their systematic plan.451    Step 4. These crazy prosecutors, soft on crime prosecutors,452who when an illegal migrant commits a crime, they won't work453with Federal law enforcement, let the guy back out, and he does454bad things. Just ask Ms. Gorman, she is going to talk about455that. That is what, again, I just cannot fathom why a party456would embrace that mind set, that approach.457    God bless Chair McClintock, he is the sponsor of that bill,458it is a good piece of legislation. We need it to pass the459House, get to the Senate, and get to the President and sign it460so we can stop this nonsense that has led to such tragic461things.462    With that, I will yield back, and again, I want to thank463our witnesses for the work, Sheriff, the work you do, the464families who have lost, God bless you, thank you for being465here. It is not easy, I know, but thank you for coming. I know466your Member appreciates it, particularly Ms. Gorman, for you467being here as well.468    With that I yield back to the Chair of the Committee.469    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. I now recognize470the Ranking Member of the Full Committee, Mr. Raskin, for his471opening statement.472    Mr. Raskin. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair, and thanks to all473our witnesses for being with us today. I especially want to474thank Mr. Abraham and Ms. Gorman for coming to speak about475their beloved daughters who were criminally and savagely stolen476away from their families. As a father, I too know the pain and477devastation of losing a child, and my heart goes out to you and478your families.479    Anyone who commits a crime must be held accountable swiftly480and completely. Immigrants, whether lawful or undocumented who481commit violent crimes must be deported at the end of their482criminal sentences. Furthermore, we must end the polarization483and dysfunction in Congress so we can pass comprehensive,484commonsense immigration reform.485    We need to make it a whole lot harder for people to enter486the United States unlawfully, and a whole lot easier to enter487the United States legally. Can we agree to an agenda around488that? Yet, instead of working with us on basic, commonsense489reforms to make dreamers lawful residents, to fortify the490border, to expand the categories for admission of lawful491immigrants.492    To make sure DHS and ICE are properly focused on following493the law, and pursuing their basic, self-proclaimed mission of494keeping us safe from the worst of the worst, our colleagues are495conducting an endless series of hearings on sanctuary cities.496This is our fourth such hearing. I am not sure Republicans have497even come to any agreement on what they mean when they use that498spooky term.499    Last year, Trump's Department of Homeland Security500published a list of nearly 400 counties that it classified as501sanctuary jurisdictions. This caused an uproar with dozens of502conservative sheriffs across the country. Their counties were503named sanctuary jurisdictions simply because they had strong504policies on upholding State's rights.505    Rejecting unfunded Federal mandates, and strong policies506against conscripting State and local officers to execute507Federal duties. Stunned by this response, the DHS removed the508list days after it was published.509    Because a list of sanctuary jurisdictions defying the Feds510could not possibly include so many conservative sheriffs from511Red counties who drew a strict line around how much of their512locally raised tax revenues and resources, they should have to513spend carrying out the Federal Government's immigration514enforcement agenda, and other constitutional responsibilities515when the Federal Government has a budget far larger than they516do.517    Well, this was a telling collision between Republicans and518Republicans. For decades conservatives argued that the Federal519Government could not impose unfunded Federal mandates on520localities, or boss around State and local officials to force521them to do the work of Federal officers charged with enforcing522Federal laws. They even succeeded in the Prince case.523    In 1997 to convince a conservative Supreme Court majority524to hold that the Tenth Amendment invalidated a provision in the525Brady Handgun Control Act which purported to compel sheriffs526and police chiefs to conduct background searches on prospective527gun buyers. Just as Antonin Scalia found for the Majority, a528five-four Majority that this provision violated the Tenth529Amendment.530    Which prevents the Federal Government he said from531commandeering State and local officers to use their official532time and their local resources to implement unfunded Federal533mandates under the direction of Federal officers. Justice534Scalia asserted that this constitutional prohibition in the535Tenth Amendment was categorical.536    He was unmoved by the heartfelt claims that the failure to537integrate local sheriffs and local police into the Federal538machinery of drug policy, of gun policy enforcement would539result in more gun violence, more death, and more injury. ``The540Feds must enforce their own laws,'' Justice Scalia said. This541is precisely the same mistake which I think our friends across542the aisle are making here.543    We have heard from some of the jurisdictions dragooned into544Congress on their official time and their official salaries to545participate in this endless sequence of repetitive hearings546that they would notify, and they do notify Federal authorities547of when any immigrant prisoner is set to be released from local548jail.549    They arrange for them to be picked up and handed over right550away to immigration authorities. No jurisdiction is giving them551a problem about that. What the ones who have appeared before us552say they cannot do is hold such prisoners beyond the length of553their judicial sentences for the convenience of Federal554officials.555    Both because this practice turns State and local officials556into de facto Federal workers, as Justice Scalia said you can't557do, ``reporting to ICE or the Department of Homeland Security558instead of reporting to their own courts.'' Also, because they559say, and certainly the people from Virginia who showed up at560the last hearing said, ``they have no constitutional authority561under due process or habeas corpus law to hold prisoners562without arrest prosecution and conviction.''563    The position they have taken, which doesn't seem at least564to be unreasonable or deranged, is simply they are very happy565to work with the Feds to turn people over before their566sentences are completed, but after their sentences are567completed, they can't hold them. Why are our colleagues so568desperate to keep pulling this boogeyman of the sanctuary569jurisdictions out of the closet?570    Well, perhaps it has to do with the fact that they voted to571give the DHS more than a quarter of a trillion dollars to572improve immigration enforcement. America has watched as the573Department of Homeland Security has used this staggering pile574of money to waste on luxurious private jets for the Secretary,575complete with bedrooms and bars.576    On overpriced and ultimately useless industrial warehouses577to detain human beings that are now being sold off at a massive578loss to the taxpayers. On a glitzy $220 million public579relations horseback photoshoot and ad campaign for a glamorous580Department of Homeland Security Secretary who called the slain581citizens Alex Pretti and Renee Good ``terrorists.''582    MAGA Republicans have done nothing as ICE has abused583hundreds of billions of dollars to arrest, beat up, shoot, and584even kill American citizens for exercising their First and585Second Amendment rights. They have allowed ICE to ignore its586duty to keep us safe from the worst of the worst and instead go587after kids and parents coming home from kindergarten.588    Rape survivors who just finished testifying in court, and589volunteers at Catholic church soup kitchens. ICE's590indiscriminate and chaotic immigration enforcement has also591undermined the ability of State and local prosecutors and law592enforcement to keep their own communities safe, and to deliver593justice to victims of crime. They are deporting crime victims,594as well as key witnesses and informants without any notice to595State or local police and prosecutors.596    As a result, investigations are being thwarted, criminal597trials are being thrown into disarray, and American communities598are less safe. House Judiciary Democrats put out a report599called, ``Acquittal by Removal: How Trump's Mass Deportation600Agenda Abandons Crime Victims and Allows Perpetrators to Avoid601Justice,'' which I recommend that all of you check out.602    Not only is the DHS not making our Communities safer, but603it is making us worse off. A recent study found that the metro604areas most targeted by ICE in both Red and Blue States had605suffered losses of nearly 670,000 jobs, up to 44 percent of606which were held by American citizens. The immigration roundup607is profoundly costly to our communities.608    The Administration's attacks on so called sanctuary609jurisdictions are hurting Americans from all walks of life. One610can only regard with amazement the fact that rather than own up611to this disastrous record, my colleagues are trying to change612the subject and blame the failures of the Department of613Homeland Security not on Kristi Noem and her dysfunctional614accomplices and successors.615    On the State and local jurisdictions, which did not create616the problem, have no real power to address it, and are617constitutionally protected from being impressed into service as618Justice Scalia said, ``by an illegal commandeering policy619passed by Congress.'' The DHS has a quarter of a million620employees, and a budget larger than that of 150 countries on621earth.622    It has over 80,000 sworn law enforcement officers, more623than the number of officers in New York, Chicago, L.A.,624Houston, D.C., Las Vegas, and Dallas combined. Despite all625that, our colleagues think that State and local jurisdictions626should be using their money, and their funds to do the627Department of Homeland Security's job for them.628    If our colleagues are serious about public safety, they629should join us in imposing guardrails on ICE to refocus their630energy on going after the worst of the worst, and to ensure631that they respect the fundamental rights of every U.S. citizen.632They should reinvest in public safety programs that the633Administration has cut that supported local-law enforcement,634assisted victims of crime, and gone after organized crime and635drug traffickers.636    They should push back on the President's shocking abuse of637the pardon power, which has allowed drug traffickers and638international narco-dealers, and criminal fraudsters to walk639free, depriving victims and taxpayers of nearly $2 billion in640unmet restitution. Last Congress we came together to craft a641bipartisan border security bill.642    President Biden agreed to sign it, but then candidate Trump643blew up the deal because he wanted a crisis to run on more than644he wanted an actual solution. Sadly, since then our colleagues645have been doing more of the same, holding hearing after hearing646on the same topic, failing to pass their signature border bill,647or even their bill to coerce and commandeer sanctuary cities to648do their bidding.649    I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today, and650hope that we can rejoin together in doing the work of the651American people. Thank you, Mr. Chair.652    Mr. McClintock. Without objection, all other opening653statements will be included in the record, and we will now654introduce today's witnesses.655    By the way, I will note that permitting Committee Members656is not something our Committee normally allows, I would ask the657Members to please focus their remarks on introducing the658witness, and refrain from making a broader speech on the topic659of today's hearing.660    I will begin by recognizing Ms. Miller to introduce Mr.661Abraham.662    Ms. Miller. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I am honored to introduce663my friend and fellow Illinois resident, Joe Abraham. One year664ago, Mr. Abraham sat in the House Oversight Committee hearing665as Illinois Governor JB Pritzker defended his Administration666sanctuary policies. I had the opportunity to address that667Committee and question the Governor.668    I will never forget seeing Mr. Abraham in the room, a669grieving father seeking answers after losing his daughter to a670tragedy that was entirely preventable. As he will share with671this Committee, the Illinois Governor's refusal to enforce our672Nation's immigration laws contributed to the death of his673youngest child.674    Katie Abraham, who has been described by her father as675having a beautiful soul and a large personality, was killed in676the early hours of January 19, 2025, by an intoxicated illegal677alien who crashed into the car carrying Katie and her friends.678Despite unimaginable grief, Joe Abraham chose courage over679silence.680    He has become a powerful advocate, not just for Katie, but681for families across America who believe their voices are being682ignored, and for the victims whose stories deserve to be heard,683and for Americans who expect their government to fulfill the684most fundamental responsibility to protect its own citizens.685You could not have picked a better witness, Mr. Chair.686    Joe will provide this Committee with a firsthand account of687the consequences of the Left's sanctuary policies, and why we688must never forget its victims. Mr. Chair, thank you.689    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back. I now recognize690Mr. Lawler to introduce Ms. Gorman.691    Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you for having692me at this important hearing. I am here today to introduce693Jessica Gorman. Jessica should not be here today. She should694not be testifying before Congress. She should be back in New695York with her daughters Madelon and Sheridan, enjoying a quiet696Tuesday afternoon in the summer.697    Unfortunately, Jessica is here with us today, and she is698here because just a few short months ago her beautiful daughter699Sheridan was shot and killed in Chicago by an illegal700immigrant. I cannot say it loud enough or clear enough, but701this Nation, and this Congress owes you an apology. We are702sorry to you, to Tom, and to Madelon.703    I didn't know Sheridan personally, and that is a tragedy,704but I know her family, and I know the Yorktown community. I705know that she was a kind and compassionate young woman who706cared about her community and had a bright future ahead of us.707I know without a doubt in my mind the incredible things she708would have done with her life, should she had been given the709chance.710    Her murder was senseless; it should not have happened. Our711immigration policies exist for a reason, and they should have712been enforced. Sheridan would still be with us today, and713Jessica would not have to testify before this panel. Our714immigration laws facilitate legal immigration processes to715ensure that good, smart people can come into this country,716assimilate, and contribute to our communities.717    While also ensuring that criminals who break the law do not718get to stay. Their jobs are made infinitely harder when places719like New York and Chicago blatantly disregard existing law and720provide safe harbor to criminals. Sanctuary policies are the721reason why--722    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, point of order, this is a723statement, not an introduction.724    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman will suspend; the725gentlelady's point is well taken. The gentleman will please726confine his remarks to the introduction.727    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you.728    Mr. Lawler. Back in May 2023, over three years ago,729Sheridan's murderer illegally entered the United States. Border730Patrol caught him, they apprehended him. Then because of the731Biden Administration's ludicrous open border policies, he was732released into our country. A month later he was arrested for733shoplifting in Chicago.734    Under existing law, and the law at the time, he should have735been deported right then and there. If Chicago were abiding by736our Federal laws--737    Mr. Nadler. Point of order, this is not an introduction, it738is a speech.739    Mr. Lawler. You all should be ashamed of yourselves, you740should be ashamed of yourselves, this is disgraceful--741    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, we had--742    Mr. Nadler. We ask for a ruling on the point of order--743    Mr. Lawler. Precisely because you have failed to do your744jobs--745    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair--746    Mr. Nadler. We ask for a ruling--747    Mr. Lawler. You wonder why we had four hearings--748    Mr. McClintock. Everybody settle down.749    Mr. Lawler. It is because you don't understand the750consequence of sanctuary policies--751    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman will suspend; the gentleman752will suspend--753    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, unfortunately we won't give our754approval for people to introduce their constituents if people755don't stick to the rules. I appreciate the Chair's insistence756that we stick to the rules, and that you have the opportunity757to introduce your constituent, which I think you have done--758    Mr. Lawler. Right, introducing my constituent is--759    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you very much, Mr. Lawler, and Mr.760Chair, please have the Committee be in order--761    Mr. Lawler. Sharing the details of her death, you may not762want to hear the details, it may be an inconvenience to you,763but these details matter.764    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair?765    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman will suspend. We have an766agreement with the Minority that the introductions will be767introductory only, so if I could just ask for the gentleman to768make that introduction and conclude?769    Mr. Lawler. Sure. When you send your kid to college, you770should be worried about making sure they go to class, or771hopefully that they have a nice roommate, or how to help them772get a summer internship, not worried that illegal immigrants773are shooting them while they are out with their friends looking774at the Northern Lights. It is shameful that we are here.775    Not because this is the fourth hearing, but because we need776to have four hearings to make people understand the real-life777consequences of the disastrous sanctuary city policies. While778some of my colleagues may not want to hear the truth, the same779outrage you feel about Renee Good and Alex Pretti, you should780feel about Sheridan Gorman--781    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, would you please end this?782    Mr. Lawler. Laken Riley, and every Angel Family in this783country--784    Ms. Jayapal. End this statement, unfortunately--785    Mr. Raskin. I do feel that outrage--786    Mr. Lawler. You do not, because if you did, you would not787support sanctuary jurisdictions--788    Mr. Raskin. Do you feel the outrage about Alex Pretti and789Renee Good--790    Mr. Lawler. You should be ashamed of yourself--791    Mr. Raskin. You should be ashamed--792    Mr. Lawler. You should be ashamed of yourself, Jamie--793    Mr. Raskin. You don't belong on this Committee; you should794get the hell out of here--795    Mr. Lawler. You are a disgrace--796    Mr. Raskin. You don't understand the rules of the797Committee, you don't understand the Constitution--798    Mr. Lawler. You are a disgrace; you are a disgrace--799    Mr. Raskin. You are full of it; you are absolutely full of800it--801    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Raskin, Mr. Raskin--802    Mr. Lawler. You are an absolute disgrace supporting803sanctuary policies--804    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Raskin, get ahold of yourself--805    Mr. Raskin. Say one word about Alex Pretti--806    Mr. Lawler. Get rid of sanctuary policies--807    Mr. Raskin. Renee Good--808    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Lawler, please suspend--809    Mr. Lawler. I did, I wrote a whole The New York Times op ed810about it, you should be absolutely ashamed of yourself for811not--812    Mr. Raskin. OK, then follow the rules of the Committee--813    Mr. McClintock. The Committee will be--814    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair--815    Mr. McClintock. The Committee will be--816    Mr. Lawler. Opposing sanctuary policies that resulted in817their daughter's death.818    Mr. McClintock. The Committee will be in order; we are819going to--820    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair, I just want to say we will not821allow, thanks to Mr. Lawler's outrageous outburst, we will not822allow this to happen again. This was an agreement between--823    Mr. McClintock. We will proceed--824    Ms. Jayapal. The Chair and the Ranking Member, and825unfortunately you are not able to control your Members--826    Mr. McClintock. We will proceed--827    Ms. Jayapal. It is time for us to proceed.828    Mr. Lawler. Your opening statement was outrageous; you829should be ashamed of yourself--830    Mr. McClintock. We will proceed; we will proceed in order--831    Ms. Jayapal. You are not on the Committee, Mr. Lawler--832    Mr. Lawler. I yield back.833    Ms. Jayapal. Get off of it.834    Mr. McClintock. Let us try to conduct ourselves in a civil835manner.836    Ms. Jayapal. Speak that to your Member, Mr. Chair.837    Mr. McClintock. We have two other introductions to make,838which I think will go a little more smoothly. One is Ms. Sarah839Pierce, who is the Director of Social Policy at Third Way. She840previously worked at U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services,841and has served as Senior Counsel for the Senate Committee on842Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs.843    Ms. Pierce has a bachelor's degree from Grinnell College, a844master's degree from the Elliott School of International845Affairs, and a law degree from the University of Iowa College846of Law. Finally, we have Sheriff Gary Redman, who has been the847Sheriff of Amador County, California, since 2021. He is a848veteran of the U.S. Air Force.849    Sheriff Redman's career includes service with the Los850Angeles Police Department, and nearly three decades with the851Amador County Sheriff's Office. He is a graduate of the Sherman852Block Supervisory Leadership Institute, and the Federal Bureau853of Investigation's National Academy held in Quantico, Virginia.854    On a personal note, I will add that Sheriff Redman has been855a leading advocate in California to sound the alarm over856California's sanctuary laws. As we will hear, Sheriff Redman857and many of his fellow sheriffs want desperately to cooperate858and coordinate with ICE, but are forbidden from doing so by859State law.860    With those introductions, we will now welcome our861witnesses, thank them for appearing today, and we will begin by862swearing you in.863    Would you please rise and raise your right hand? Do you864swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the testimony you865are about to give is true and correct to the best of your866knowledge, information, and belief, so help you God? Let the867record reflect the witnesses have answered in the affirmative,868please be seated.869    Please know that your written testimony will be entered870into the record in its entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you871summarize your testimony in five minutes.872    We will begin with Mr. Abraham.873874                    STATEMENT OF JOE ABRAHAM875876    Mr. Abraham. Chair, Ranking Members, and the Members of the877Committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. For most878Americans January 19, 2025, was just an ordinary day. For my879family it was the day that our lives were permanently altered.880That night my 20-year-old daughter Katie was riding with881friends in Urbana, Illinois, visiting University of Illinois,882friends going to that college.883    The vehicle was stopped at a red light, they were exactly884where they were supposed to be, they were obeying laws and885posed a danger to no one. In a matter of seconds, an886intoxicated illegal immigrant driving nearly 80 miles an hour887crashed into the back of their idle vehicle. Katie was killed,888another young woman was killed, three other young people889suffered serious injuries.890    My daughter's future ended in that intersection. Katie was891bright, compassionate, athletic, and deeply loved. Today,892instead of watching her graduate from college this year, begin893a career, build a family of her own, we visit and tend to her894grave.895    The individual responsible, Julio Cucul-Bol, a Guatemalan896national who was previously deported, and re-entered illegally897in the United States in 2022.898    After the crash, he fled, leaving the death and destruction899behind him, but was later apprehended in Texas. As devastating900as Katie's death is, what brings me here before Congress is not901what happened that night. It is everything that happened before902it. Previously deported individual, illegally returned to the903United States, remained here, obtained an Illinois driver's904license, and ultimately killed two women.905    Those are not my opinions, those are facts. During court906proceedings, Bol testified through an interpreter that he could907not read, write, or speak English or Spanish. He communicated908primarily with K,iche,, an indigenous Mayan Guatemalan909language. Imagine the struggles of translators there. Yet, he910was issued a valid Illinois driver's license, which raises911serious questions.912    How was competency evaluated? Whether public safety was913even a concern, any protocols followed. Accountability cannot914change what happened to Katie, but it can help prevent similar915tragedies. My parents came to America legally more than 60916years ago from a developing country. Like millions of lawful917immigrants, they believed America was a Nation governed by laws918rather than political convenience.919    They respected the process because they respected the920country. They taught me citizenship carries obligations, that921laws exist for a reason, and that government has fundamental922responsibilities to the people it serves. When government fails923in that responsibility, real people bear the consequences, my924daughter was one of them.925    The central question before this Committee to me is926straight forward. Did failures in immigration enforcement,927government coordination, public policy increase preventable928risks to American citizens? These are not partisan questions,929they are oversight questions, they are public safety questions.930Too often immigration debates become about systems and931policies, while victims fade into the background.932    Katie was not a statistic; she was my daughter. She should933still be alive today. Congress can't undo what happened to934Katie, but it can examine what failed, demand transparency from935government agencies and public officials, insist that policies936be judged not by their intentions, by their outcomes. Katie937lost her future January 19, 2025, my family lost ours with her.938    I ask this Committee to demand full transparency, identify939the failures that allowed a previously deported individual to940illegally return, remain in this country, obtain a driver's941license, and ultimately kill two young women. Hold government942accountable, strengthen coordination between Federal, State,943and local authorities, and judge every policy by one simple944question. Would this better protect the next American stopped945at a red light? Thank you.946    [The prepared statement of Mr. Abraham follows:]947    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]948949    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony. We will next950hear from Ms. Pierce.951952                   STATEMENT OF SARAH PIERCE953954    Ms. Pierce. Chair McClintock, Ranking Member Jayapal, thank955you for the opportunity to speak today. I would like to start956by saying Mr. Abraham and Ms. Gorman, I am incredibly sorry for957your losses, no one should suffer like your families have958suffered, and I honor and admire your bravery in being here959today. My name is Sarah Pierce; I am the Director of Social960Policy at Third Way.961    Third Way has a long history of saying things that both962Democrats and Republicans dislike, so let me start there. The963Biden Administration's border policies were inexcusable. The964Trump Administration's interior enforcement policies are also965inexcusable. My testimony today focuses on why; I have three966main points.967    First, sanctuary policies do not prevent ICE from enforcing968Federal law. Every jurisdiction, including self-proclaimed969sanctuaries, participates in immigration enforcement. When970someone is booked, fingerprints are checked against Federal971databases, and ICE has access to that. ICE has Federal972authority, agents, databases, and now extraordinary funding,973$113.5 billion in supplemental funding through 2029.974    This is more than the combined operating budgets of every975local-law enforcement jurisdiction in America. Meanwhile, State976and local-law enforcement are starved for resources. Three977quarters of local police departments have fewer than 25978officers. They handle crime, overdoses, sensitive community979calls, asking them to absorb Federal duties, pulls them away980from their local obligations.981    The focus should be on how cooperation can advance public982safety and support local policing.983    Second, this Administration is making cooperation harder,984not easier. Local jurisdictions need to trust Federal partners985before they lend them local resources. Yet, this Administration986has treated skeptical jurisdictions as adversaries to be987punished, not partners to be persuaded.988    This Administration has threatened funding, filed lawsuits,989and accused entire jurisdictions of protecting criminals. ICE's990tactics have deepened this trust deficit. The public cannot991distinguish between police and ICE, especially when ICE is992wearing police markings. When Federal operations are chaotic,993abusive, or deadly, local police are left to repair the damage.994    Third, this Administration's own decisions are making995Americans more vulnerable to crime. Federal law enforcement are996abandoning serious work in favor of immigration enforcement. In997San Francisco, Federal drug dealing prosecutions fell by more998than half after Federal agents were redirected to immigration999enforcement.1000    In Minnesota, Hennepin County's top prosecutor said Federal1001agents were bringing criminal cases to her because they were1002too busy with immigration work. In addition, tens of thousands1003of Federal agents with specialized experience in child1004exploitation, human trafficking, arms trafficking, and violent1005crime have been diverted from their primary public safety1006missions to instead focus on immigration enforcement.1007    That is especially dangerous for child exploitation cases,1008which require specialized resources and personnel. When those1009agents get reassigned, children wait longer to be found, and1010predators get more time to harm them. The Department of Justice1011is also weakening public safety infrastructure by delaying and1012canceling grants.1013    Each year the Department of Justice grants billions for1014police hiring, prosecutors, and victim services across the1015United States. Congress provided more than $4.5 billion for the1016Fiscal Year 2025 grants from the Department of Justice's Office1017of Justice Programs, but now nine months later less than half1018of that has gone out the door.1019    Notably for the Majority on this Committee, the States you1020represent are missing $163 million in congressionally1021authorized public safety funding from last year. That money1022still has not gone out to Alabama, Arizona, California, Kansas,1023Missouri, New Jersey, North Carolina, South Carolina, Texas,1024and Wisconsin. The Administration has also terminated more than1025$820 million in public safety grants.1026    Cutting initiatives on rural crime, officer safety and1027wellness, anti-terrorism training, and more than half of1028Federal gun violence prevention funding. For grants that are1029going out, new ideological conditions related to political1030priorities like vaccines, gender ideology, and protection of1031public monuments are discouraging applicants from even1032applying.1033    I urge this Subcommittee to broaden its oversight and stop1034treating sanctuary fights as a substitute for all public safety1035oversight. Demand a course correction, restore the grants to1036your own States. Stop diverting specialized agents from serious1037crime and rebuild trust that local-law enforcement need. Thank1038you, and I look forward to your questions.1039    [The prepared statement of Ms. Pierce follows:]1040    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]10411042    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony. We will next1043hear from Sheriff Redman.10441045              STATEMENT OF SHERIFF GARY W. REDMAN10461047    Sheriff Redman. Distinguished Members of the Committee,1048today I would like to share my perspective on the impacts1049illegal immigration has had on a small, rural county such as1050Amador. Located in California's Gold Country East of1051Sacramento, Amador covers 594 square miles, and is served by1052just 54 sworn deputies, and approximately 40 correctional1053deputies.1054    Providing public safety services across such a large1055geographic area presents unique challenges. From 1999-2015 I1056served eight years as a SWAT operator, and another eight years1057as a SWAT team leader responsible for high-risk search warrants1058and tactical operations. During that time, many large scale,1059illegal marijuana cultivation operations in Amador and1060neighboring counties were controlled by the Mexican drug1061cartels.1062    These organizations frequently utilized individuals who had1063been smuggled into the United States to work at1064cultivationsites. Many of these individuals were armed, and on1065occasion have engaged law enforcement officers. These1066operations pose significant risks not only to law enforcement1067personnel, but also the public.1068    Amador attracts more than 20,000 visitors annually to its1069streams, rivers, lakes, hiking trails, and campgrounds. Hikers1070and outdoor enthusiasts have encountered illegal1071cultivationsites and armed individuals. Cartels also smuggled1072banned pesticides into the region, causing substantial1073environmental damage, and harming local wildlife.1074    Between 2015-2025, Amador County investigated 73 illegal1075marijuana cultivation operations involving individuals believed1076to be unlawfully present in the United States. Arrests or1077charges resulting from those investigations include 1731078individuals' Asian origin, persons from China, Thailand,1079Cambodia, Laos, Vietnam, 53 Mexican nationals, one Venezuelan1080national, two Ukrainian nationals, two South African nationals,1081and one Guatemalan national.1082    Since President Trump returned to office, and Federal1083immigration enforcement priorities have changed, we have1084cooperated with ICE to the fullest extent permitted under1085California's SB 54 sanctuary law. As sheriff, my highest1086priority is protecting public safety. In early 2025, I made the1087decision that I would not knowingly release an undocumented1088criminal offender who posed a significant public safety risk1089back into the community.1090    Even if doing so placed me at odds with SB 54. On September10912, 2024, my office received a report involving a 14-year-old1092girl who disclosed to her cousin that her uncle, Diaz Mendoza,1093age 48, had been touching her over her clothing in the vaginal1094area. A deputy responded to the lake where she was present,1095interviewed the visibly distraught victim.1096    She reported the abuse had been occurring for approximately1097five months outside of Amador County. My deputy interviewed the1098suspect and established probable cause to arrest him for felony1099lewd acts involving a minor. Two days later the suspect1100appeared in court and was released by the judge.1101    In 2025, I was informed by our probation department that1102Diaz Mendoza had entered into a plea agreement negotiated by an1103Amador County Deputy District Attorney. The agreement reduced1104the case to a misdemeanor offense with credit time served, and1105suspended probation sentence. I was advised that the plea1106agreement was structured at least in part because of my1107publicly stated position regarding cooperation with ICE, and1108the likelihood that ICE would be notified on his release.1109    On learning of the plea agreement, I immediately contacted1110ICE and requested the agents take him into custody on his1111release from court. Due to the limited notice, ICE was unable1112to respond that day. However, agents did locate and arrest him1113approximately two weeks later. We subsequently informed the1114victim and her mother, both of whom expressed appreciation for1115our efforts, and relief that he would no longer have access to1116this 14-year-old victim.1117    Since 2025, I have contacted ICE eight times regarding1118removals authorized under SB 54 within my jail. Additionally,1119under SB 54, I have been required to release 16 individuals1120arrested for low-level offenses that did not meet the1121requirements of SB 54. My greatest concern as sheriff is that1122one of these individuals may re-offend, and cause another1123preventable tragedy such as Laken Riley, and the people that1124are here with me to my right and my left.1125    Preventable. In my view, public policies should prioritize1126accountability for criminal offenders, protection for victims,1127and the safety of law-abiding citizens. I believe it is long-1128overdue that we place greater emphasis on victims' rights, hold1129offenders accountable, and ensure that public safety remains1130our highest priority. Thank you.1131    [The prepared statement of Sheriff Redman follows:]1132    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]11331134    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony, sheriff.1135Finally, we will hear from Ms. Gorman.11361137                 STATEMENT OF JESSICA A. GORMAN11381139    Ms. Gorman. Hi, my name is Jessica Gorman, I am--1140    Mr. McClintock. Can you turn on your microphone?1141    Ms. Gorman. Hi, my name is Sheridan Gorman--I am sorry. My1142name is Jessica Gorman; I am the mother of Sheridan Grace1143Gorman. Sheridan was 18 years old, she was a freshman at Loyola1144University Chicago, she was beautiful, she was funny, faithful,1145loving, and full of plans to build something with her life. On1146March 19th Sheridan went with friends to the lake front in1147Chicago, because they hoped they might see the Northern Lights.1148    She never saw those lights. The man accused of murdering my1149daughter is Jose Medina, an illegal immigrant from Venezuela,1150who should not have even been in this country. Even after1151committing a crime and having an outstanding warrant, he was1152left on the streets of Chicago to murder my innocent, American1153child.1154    This story is not about him, this story is about my1155Sheridan. It is about how failed border policies, sanctuary1156city laws, and twisted leaders refuse to cooperate with ICE,1157they sent her to her grave. It is about a government and1158politicians that forgot their first priority, and the question1159before this Committee is painfully simple. When did protecting1160our American citizens, stop being your first priority?1161    Even more important, why did protecting our American1162citizens stop being your first priority? I want an explanation,1163I need one, and I deserve one, but first I want you to know who1164my Sheridan was. I want you to understand what we all lost1165because of your mismatched priorities. My husband and I have1166always joked that our older daughter Madelon is our pride,1167while Sheridan was our joy.1168    From the moment she was born, Sheridan had pure energy,1169enthusiasm, laughter, and fun. She was the kind of person who1170made every room brighter, and usually a little louder. Which is1171why when Sheridan was in kindergarten, I remember going to her1172first parent teacher conference, I was a little nervous.1173Because while she was the sweetest little girl you could1174possibly imagine, she was also the chattiest.1175    I remember sitting down across from her teacher bracing1176myself, and asking with bated breath, how is my Sheridan? I1177will never forget when the teacher looked at me very seriously1178and said I only have one thing to say to you, my stomach1179dropped. Then she said, ``Your Sheridan stalks the buddy1180bench.'' I remember blinking at her, ``I am sorry, what?'' She1181said, ``Your Sheridan stalks the buddy bench.''1182    I was totally confused, and I asked is that a good thing,1183or is that a bad thing? What exactly is a buddy bench? The1184teacher smiled and said it is a beautiful thing. She explained1185that they had a bench in the play yard, she said that not all1186kids are as outgoing and confident as your Sheridan, so the1187children were told that if they wanted to play, or if they felt1188lonely, left out, shy, they could sit on that bench.1189    Then the other children were told that if they saw someone1190sitting there, they should go over, talk to them, and ask them1191to play. Apparently Sheridan, my tiny kindergartner, had1192appointed herself the guardian of that bench. Every day at1193recess, instead of heading straight to the swings or joining in1194a game of kick ball, my daughter hung back, and hovered by the1195nearby tree, just watching that bench, just waiting, just in1196case someone might need her.1197    Kids didn't even have a chance to fully sit down on the1198bench before Sheridan was rushing over to take their hand, pull1199them away, girls, boys, first graders, and kindergartners, it1200really didn't matter to her. If a child looked lonely, Sheridan1201went over. If someone had no one to play with, Sheridan was1202there. If someone felt invisible, Sheridan saw them.1203    That was my daughter, and that is who she was until the day1204she was stolen from us. I honestly can't make sense of it. I1205cannot make peace with it. What world does the child who makes1206sure no one was lonely die terrified and alone on a pier in1207Chicago? In what world does the girl who saw everyone become1208invisible to the people in power responsible for protecting1209her?1210    This cannot be explained away, and it cannot be buried1211beneath the list of unrelated issues that you all paraded1212before us, thanks for telling me without telling me that you1213are here, but you don't want to be. This is the fourth time you1214had Angel Families, thanks for telling me you don't care. This1215cannot be buried under your slogans, your statistics, or1216excuses, and this just can't stand.1217    Today, I bring this back to the buddy bench. I think1218Congress needs one. Every Governor, every mayor, every1219sanctuary city official and politician, shifting blame and1220interest, hiding behind their slogans and talking points should1221have to all sit on one. I challenge you all to sit down with1222me, take my hand, look me in the eye, and then explain to me,1223because I just don't understand.1224    Explain why people here illegally matter more than your1225American citizens. Explain why sanctuary policies matter more1226than my Sheridan's life. Explain why cooperation with ICE was1227too much to ask for. Asking our American parents to bury our1228children is somehow acceptable. Ask me, I need you to tell me.1229    I want you to imagine that this little girl on the buddy1230bench, that innocent college freshman with a heart full of1231compassion and a head full of dreams that was gunned down by an1232illegal immigrant, I want you to imagine that was your1233daughter, not mine. What if she was yours, would you even1234hesitate for 1 second to act, or to make changes? My Sheridan1235spent her whole life choosing others.1236    Today, I am just asking this Committee, our Congress, and1237our country to choose her. She was worth protecting, she was1238worth saving, she was worth your brave vote. To all those who1239have supported us, who have prayed for us, who have cried with1240us, and to those that have had the courage to speak out, and1241say Sheridan's name, thank you. Because every time you say her1242name you give a piece of her back to us.1243    You remind the world that Sheridan was not a talking point,1244she wasn't a statistic or a headline, she was our daughter. She1245will always be my sweet sunshine. If the people who failed her1246would rather look away, then I am asking the rest of you to1247look right at her, here she is, there is she and I, here she1248is, this is taken then day before she died.1249    Say her name, tell her story, and demand better, because my1250Sheridan Grace Gorman should still be alive. No mother should1251have to stand where I am standing, begging, begging, elected1252leaders to value my child's life after it is already too late.1253I cried when I came into the room, I saw this poster that you1254made, it said ``at every stop the system had a chance to stop1255him, at every step it failed.''1256    My daughter paid for those failures, your failures with her1257life. No family should ever have to bury a child because public1258officials failed to put American lives first. I am just asking1259you to choose us, we choose you, we choose you, choose us. Why1260does my child matter less than an illegal immigrant, why?1261Listen, I have a heart, I love immigrants, two of my best1262friends in this whole world are immigrants, they came here the1263right way.1264    I absolutely think they make America beautiful, but my1265daughter is beautiful too. I need you to think about what these1266policies are, and I need you to imagine this is your daughter,1267because I am very sure you won't be cutting off anyone when1268they are speaking, I would be very sure you won't call this a1269political stunt, the grief is real. Every day I wake up with1270unimaginable pain.1271    Do you know what, I wake up in the middle of the night, and1272I think did my daughter cry for me? She made it forty feet, she1273made it forty feet running for her life, did she cry out for1274me? She died on that pavement all by herself, lonely, bleeding1275on that pavement, and I will never, ever rest, I actually have1276to say that I am devastated, my husband and I, we are only a1277couple years away from retirement, I have worked my whole life1278so hard.1279    All I wanted to do was just enjoy our children, I just1280wanted to enjoy my Sheridan, my Madelon, and now I am bitter. I1281am bitter because I am a lover, not a fighter, I am a lover, I1282love children, I love pumping people up and making them feel1283good about themselves. I am not racist, I am not xenophobic, we1284have done everything right, my husband and I, we taught our1285daughter to be a wonderful, beautiful person, her love was1286extravagant.1287    Now, I am going to have to spend my last waking moment, I1288am going to have to spend fighting, fighting against these1289policies, and fighting for people to say her name. If you have1290the courage, please come talk to me, come sit on that bench, I1291will buy Congress a bench. Talk to each other, we shouldn't be1292screaming across the room. I mean we also shouldn't say1293``but,'' because I have to just say, and I understand that you1294are here for a reason.1295    I don't understand why it is only the Republican side that1296cares about our American children. I know that you are a1297mother, I know that you are a father, I deeply value that, but1298basically what you just did, what you said was I am so sorry1299for your loss, I have a daughter too, I have a son, I feel your1300pain, you don't, you don't feel my pain. Because the next words1301out of your mouth were ``but.''1302    There is no but when your child is in the coffin, there is1303no but. I need you to understand that, and if you ever want to1304talk about it, I am here, I am going to buy you a bench. I am1305going to buy, you can put that on the record, I am going to buy1306Congress the bench, and they can come, and sit, and hold my1307hand, and look me in the eye, and explain to me why illegal1308immigrants are more important than my daughter.1309    I really want to know, because I don't understand. Please,1310I welcome you, I will listen, I will listen, I care, I care, I1311just need you to explain it to me, because I don't, and I fear1312I will never understand. Thank you.1313    [The prepared statement of Ms. Gorman follows:]1314    [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]13151316    Mr. McClintock. Thank you for your testimony, I can't1317imagine how difficult this appearance is for you, and we thank1318you for being here today. We will now proceed under the five-1319minute rule of questions.1320    We will begin with Mr. Tiffany.1321    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you, Mr. Abraham1322and Ms. Gorman, for being here. We are proud to cite the names1323of Sheridan and Katie here before this Judiciary Committee1324hearing. Ms. Gorman, would you say you, your neighbors, and1325your community are safer when a government protects violent1326criminals and illegal aliens over Americans?1327    Ms. Gorman. No.1328    Mr. Tiffany. Same question, Mr. Abraham.1329    Mr. Abraham. No, they are not.1330    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Gorman, do you believe that your State or1331this country is safer when criminal illegal aliens are released1332into our streets?1333    Ms. Gorman. No.1334    Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Abraham?1335    Mr. Abraham. No, not at all.1336    Mr. Tiffany. In my home State of Wisconsin we had a1337terrible situation, not unlike what you are experiencing, where1338there is a sanctuary community, Dane County, that allowed an1339illegal immigrant from Venezuela, let him free, and he was1340arrested over 100 miles away in a little community, Prairie du1341Chien, Wisconsin. The charges were domestic violence, sexual1342assault, child abuse, and strangulation.1343    Fortunately, the woman did not die, but it had to be1344horrific. When thinking about that, we should be concerned with1345neighboring communities, should places like Missouri, Indiana,1346Iowa, and Wisconsin be concerned when there is sanctuary1347policies that are on our borders that may affect us when we see1348it happen in our own State 100 miles away from a sanctuary1349jurisdiction?1350    Should we be concerned, Mr. Abraham, with those policies1351being carried out in the State of Illinois?1352    Mr. Abraham. If you care about your citizens, you should be1353concerned?1354    Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Gorman?1355    Ms. Gorman. I sent my daughter to Chicago because I thought1356it was safe. You hear all the rhetoric in the politics, I sent1357her there because I thought she was safe, no, she wasn't safe.1358It never would have occurred to me that this could have1359happened. Yes, Mr. Abraham talked about as a parent you worry,1360I worry about car accidents, you worry that they will drink too1361much.1362    You never even conceive that she would be murdered, shot in1363the back of the head by an illegal immigrant on a pier going to1364see the Northern Lights with her friends. It is not even1365something you could even conceive. I just have to say one1366thing, because it has been plaguing me, and this is how messed1367up this situation is, this is why I am sorry I got so upset1368with your ``buts,'' and you don't want to talk about this.1369    This is the fourth hearing. Do you know what I am thankful1370for? This is so messed up, I am going to say it, I am thankful1371after hearing, I didn't even know what an Angel Family was, I1372had no idea, had never even heard about it, there are so many1373out here. You know what I am thankful for?1374    I'm thankful that my daughter was just shot in the back of1375the head, not raped, murdered, dismembered, put in a garbage1376can like Megan Bos with bleach poured on her, and they didn't1377find her for fifty days. You can actually dismiss the Angel1378Families, you can say ``but''? You don't want to hear four1379sessions on Angel Families? I am sorry, you need to, you need1380to.1381    I am actually thankful that my daughter wasn't raped, how1382messed up is that? That I am thankful every day that she was1383just murdered, not raped and dismembered. Think about that, how1384messed up is that? Do you know what I thought of this morning1385when I got up? The joy of--does anyone have a baby here? The1386joy of picking out their first outfit that they are going to1387wear on their ride home from the hospital.1388    I had to pick out my daughter's last outfit, and she was a1389fabulous dresser. We had a hundred people come to our home, a1390hundred friends and family came to our home, we had her1391cremated actually after, and they all decorated her urn with1392rhinestones. All of them put it on there, she is fabulous even1393in death. For the first time, all the excitement of having a1394child, and then having people make excuses and ``buts.''1395    I am sorry, this is unacceptable. There are so many Angel1396Families out here, and the day that I have to wake up and be1397thankful that my daughter was only shot and not raped should1398tell you something. It is crazy.1399    Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Ms. Gorman. By the way, you used1400the term sorry early on, when you answered that question. You1401never have to apologize. Never apologize for the story that you1402are delivering to the American people.1403    Mr. Chair, I yield back.1404    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back.1405    Ms. Gorman. Can I just say one thing? I am sorry, I am1406sorry I have to be here. I am sorry, I am actually--like I1407said, I am a lover, I am a lover, not a fighter, I am not a1408public speaker, I am not someone who ever speaks out about1409things, I actually am very bitter that I have to be here, No.14101. Now, I am going to have to fight for my daughter. I am sorry1411that I have to be here, and that I have to even oppose anyone,1412it is crazy.1413    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.1414    Ms. Gorman. Sorry.1415    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to go1416to a statement that you ended with, Sheriff Redman, that I1417agree with, and I believe this is how you said it, as well as1418in your written testimony. Public policy should prioritize1419accountability for criminal offenders, protection for victims,1420and the safety of law-abiding citizens. I agree with that, and1421I think everybody on this side agrees with that.1422    The question really is what creates that environment most1423effectively. I spent some time in my opening statement, and I1424know you did as well, Ms. Pierce, talking about how resources1425are getting taken from different parts of Department of1426Homeland Security, other Federal law enforcement agencies, to1427do immigration enforcement that has really focused largely on1428people who don't have any convictions.1429    More importantly, in this context of sanctuary1430jurisdictions, has actually hurt law enforcement's ability to1431do its job at the local level. I wanted to go to this question1432about the central question here is not about whether there1433should be justice for Ms. Gorman, and Mr. Abraham's daughter's1434murders, there absolutely should be, I don't think there is any1435disagreement about that anywhere on this bench, Democrat or1436Republican.1437    The central question is what gets us that accountability1438across the board, for everybody? The Trump Administration's1439approach has been to force every State, city, and locality to1440use their resources, precious resources, quite small in many1441jurisdictions, to enforce Federal immigration law. In Mr.1442Abraham's case, it sounds like actually that was a Chicago,1443that sounds like a State of Illinois issue.1444    The whole question of where local-law enforcement1445prioritizes resources, and what keeps us safer, my question for1446you is does the Trump Administration's approach to immigration1447enforcement, which is forcing local jurisdictions to enforce1448immigration law, is that what keeps us most safe, and prevents1449the kinds of things we are hearing about today?1450    Ms. Pierce. No, it does not. I agree, the central question1451here is not only just about accountability, right? It is about1452public safety, what can keep us all the safest? There are a few1453different problems with what the Trump Administration is doing,1454and how they are approaching that, and I will touch on two of1455them.1456    First, the redirection of Federal resources to immigration1457enforcement above violent crimes. This Administration has moved1458tens of thousands of Federal law enforcement officers away from1459their primary duties of going after human trafficking, going1460after child sexual exploitation, going after cybercrimes,1461terrorism, and violent crime, and instead focused them on1462immigration enforcement.1463    That immigration enforcement work unfortunately is not1464focused on the worst of the worst, rather it is focused on1465rounding up as many individuals as possible. We are neglecting1466terrorists, and we are instead focusing on individuals who have1467violated civil immigration law.1468    Second, that this Administration is bullying jurisdictions1469to fully cooperate with immigration enforcement, despite those1470jurisdictions' considerations about their own resources. Police1471departments have limited resources, and they use those to1472decide how much and what level of cooperation they are going to1473give to the Trump Administration.1474    Not only that, but they need to look at their relationships1475with their communities. Is a certain level of cooperation with1476ICE going to harm the trust that they have established with1477their local communities? Is it going to redirect the priorities1478that they have decided are best to keep safety in their1479communities?1480    Those are the things that these local jurisdictions need to1481decide before they decide what level of cooperation that they1482will give ICE. Unfortunately, this Administration doesn't seem1483to want to acknowledge that they would rather bully these1484jurisdictions into that full cooperation.1485    Ms. Jayapal. As well as concerns about how much they would1486have to pay in lawsuits if what they do is actually1487unconstitutional. Why is it dangerous to have policies in1488place, this gets at the community trust piece, why is it1489dangerous to have policies in place that prevent huge swathes1490of the community, both undocumented folks, as well as family1491members, or friends of undocumented people who may live in the1492same household from feeling secure in calling 911? What happens1493in that situation to the safety of all community members?1494    Ms. Pierce. Police can't be everywhere, right? They rely on1495community members to be their eyes and ears, to report crimes,1496to be witnesses, and to provide testimony. When those1497individuals are no longer willing to cooperate with the police,1498when they think that a call to 911 is going to make their lives1499worse, that means that those police, their reach into that1500network, into the community is then limited.1501    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, my time is expired, I yield back.1502    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Biggs?1503    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and I thank the witnesses1504for being here today. Ms. Gorman, thank you particularly, Mr.1505Abraham, thank you. I appreciate, Ms. Gorman, the way you1506called folks across the aisle out. I want to tell you that this1507isn't just the fourth hearing, we actually had a field hearing1508in Phoenix, Arizona on this, where we had Angel Families come1509in and testify.1510    Do you know how many from the Democrats came? Not one,1511zero, no one came. They didn't care enough to come to that1512field hearing, what a shame, really too bad, they needed to1513hear what had gone on, we had seven families at that one.1514Federal law, I have got it up here, a little bit low behind me1515here, says clearly, ``no city, county, or State can block its1516officers from sharing immigration information with the Federal1517Government.''1518    It is not complicated. Ms. Pierce, Illinois' TRUST Act,1519tells local officers they cannot share information with ICE, is1520that a direct violation of Federal law?1521    Ms. Pierce. It is not, 8 U.S.C. 1373 directs that local1522officials cannot restrict officials within their jurisdiction1523from sharing information about immigration status.1524    Mr. Biggs. You don't think this--so if Illinois' law, their1525TRUST Act, which says they cannot provide information in1526response to any immigration agent's inquiry or request for1527information regarding any individual in the agency's custody,1528they can't provide that, you don't think that is a violation of15291373? I guess that is why things are so screwed up.1530    Let me just tell you that we are going to go along here and1531talk about Sheridan Gorman and Katie Abraham, because I am1532telling you, and I am asserting that this has not been settled1533by any court, your statement has not been settled by any court,1534and it is under review still. I don't believe that the families1535of Sheridan, Katie, or any other Angel Family would say yes,1536``you should be allowed to withhold information.''1537    That is what you saw in this particular case. Sheriff1538Redman, you ever see that, your State, they trying to prevent1539you from providing this information to ICE or other Federal1540authorities?1541    Sheriff Redman. Yes, sir.1542    Mr. Biggs. Give us an example please.1543    Sheriff Redman. We are able to share some limited1544information. The gentleman that I--call him gentleman, the1545suspect that was arrested in my jurisdiction for the lewd acts1546with a child, that information under SB 54 that I provided to1547them, was not legally able to provide that information.1548    Mr. Biggs. We have got a set of facts here. Jose Medina1549entered this country illegally, he had no address, no ID, and1550no legal status. Went to Chicago, he was arrested for1551shoplifting. Chicago had him in custody, ICE was never1552notified. He walked out the door, got an OR if I understand1553right, never showed back up for his court date, nobody went1554looking for him, because that is the way it is, it is a1555shoplifting case.1556    Nobody is going to go look for a shoplifter. Less than1557three years later he shot Sheridan Gorman in the head in a1558Chicago park. Now, you have got 8 U.S.C. 1324 makes it a1559Federal crime to knowingly conceal, harbor, or shield an1560illegal alien from detection. Were those facts met, do you1561think, Ms. Pierce, when Chicago took Medina into custody, they1562knew he was in the country illegally.1563    They knew he had a criminal charge pending, they released1564him back onto the street, did they shield, do you think that1565was shielding?1566    Ms. Pierce. No, sir. When Medina was booked into custody,1567those fingerprints were shared with the Department of Homeland1568Security, and with ICE, ICE had access to that information.1569    Mr. Biggs. Did they transfer him to ICE? The answer is no.1570The question would be at what point does systematically1571refusing to notify ICE, knowing an individual is unlawfully1572present, has a criminal record, cross into shielding someone1573from detection? That is really the question here. You can take1574that position to say well, you know what, we just don't think1575that is right.1576    That is what a sanctuary jurisdiction does, they say we are1577not going to provide that information, if ICE has a detainer,1578we are not going to transfer them to them, because they want1579only a criminal arrest warrant. They don't want an ICE hold,1580they don't want an ICE detainer, and they want an actual1581criminal arrest warrant, those are two distinctive things.1582    What you do is allow a very dangerous, illegal alien back1583onto the street, wreaking havoc in our communities. That is the1584pissant shame of it all.1585    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time is expired. Mr.1586Raskin?1587    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. Pierce, I remember1588when we started this term of Congress, and Elon Musk, and DOGE1589wiped out about $500 million of grants that were going to1590victim assistance groups, crime fighting groups, and local1591police departments. Nobody could quite explain why the1592particular DOGE employee did that.1593    They wiped out about a half a billion dollars of grants1594going to help the families of victims, and to try to stop1595crime. Can you discuss what happened there, what were those1596grants, why did that happen, and what kind of effect does that1597have when money that we have appropriated from Congress for1598this purpose, and the grants or programs that are wiped out,1599what effect does that have?1600    Ms. Pierce. Sure. It was actually $820 million in1601Department of Justice grants that they canceled, $500 million1602of which had already been granted. That means the organizations1603that were receiving those grants had already started hiring1604staff, renting spaces, the communities that were going to1605receive those public safety grants had already started relying1606on that money coming in, and all that was wiped away.1607    I have recently been working with the victim rights law1608center, which is an amazing nonprofit organization in1609Massachusetts. They have lost three attorneys so far because of1610the way that the Department of Justice is messing with these1611public safety grants. That means victims, hundreds of victims1612of sexual assault and rape no longer have attorneys because1613that public safety funding has disappeared.1614    Mr. Raskin. It is not just victim assistance groups, it is1615also crime fighting groups, and police departments had millions1616of dollars of grants that were canceled, correct? To my1617recollection.1618    Ms. Pierce. Absolutely, yes.1619    Mr. Raskin. Have the Office of Justice Programs grants from1620Fiscal Year 2025 been reinstated and distributed?1621    Ms. Pierce. We were talking earlier about canceled grants,1622right? There is another problem with the Department of Justice1623grants, in that they have significantly slowed down the amount1624of grants that are going across the United States, not only for1625organizations, but also for police departments.1626    In the Fiscal Year 2025, the Department of Justice grants1627that go through the Office of Justice Programs have not been1628fully granted.1629    Mr. Raskin. Why is that happening?1630    Ms. Pierce. I don't know, the Department of Justice has not1631spoken to why this has happened. This is an unprecedented thing1632that has caused disruption across our country, and the1633Department of Justice is not telling anyone why they have been1634delaying this. It is more than $2 billion in grants that have1635not gone--1636    Mr. Raskin. Two billion dollars did you say?1637    Ms. Pierce. Two billion dollars.1638    Mr. Raskin. What would that $2 billion have been able to do1639for local police forces around the country?1640    Ms. Pierce. It would be used to hire officers, it would be1641used to train officers, it would be used to support officer1642wellness programs, it would be used to support resources for1643law enforcement, such as body cameras, different things that1644they desperately need.1645    Mr. Raskin. Our system is complex because it is a Federal1646system, so we have national government, Department of Justice,1647Federal policies, and we have State and local policies, and you1648described this tension, this hostility that is creating1649problems. Can you discuss how jurisdictions normally cooperate1650with the Federal Government in different ways, and how does it1651best work?1652    Ms. Pierce. Sure, I mean talking specifically about1653immigration enforcement--1654    Mr. Raskin. Sure.1655    Ms. Pierce. Like I said during my testimony, every single1656law enforcement jurisdiction across the United States1657cooperates with immigration enforcement, every time someone is1658booked, that information is sent to the Department of Homeland1659Security, and to ICE, and then jurisdictions from there need to1660decide how much more of their local resources they will lend to1661ICE and immigration enforcement to help ICE do its job.1662    Mr. Raskin. OK, will you just help us understand the1663different resources that are available to the Federal1664Government, and then to local government police forces?1665    Ms. Pierce. Sure. As I said during my testimony, this1666Congress has provided ICE with $113.5 billion to do their job,1667to enforce immigration law in the United States, and that is1668more than the combined annual operating budget of every single1669local-law enforcement jurisdiction in America. We are talking1670about local police departments that have limited amount of1671resources, and their primary duty is public safety.1672    Their primary duty is not immigration enforcement.1673Meanwhile, we have a Federal agency who has a budget larger1674than all but four militaries in the world, and their primary1675duty is in civil immigration enforcement.1676    Mr. Raskin. What would you suggest we work on a bipartisan1677basis in Congress in to reduce criminal violence by1678undocumented immigrants, but in general, because there are1679people suffering these tragedies generally across the country,1680what can we do to bring down the crime rate generally, and all1681the violence?1682    Ms. Pierce. Those resources that ICE receives should be1683targeted at the biggest public safety threats, right? We1684shouldn't have a Federal agency that is running amok across the1685United States trying to fulfill a quota to get as many people1686into detention and deportation as possible, that is not making1687us safer. In addition, we need a Federal Government that is1688willing to work with local-law enforcement jurisdictions.1689    We have had ICE in the past have compromise and1690communication be their primary driver when they are working1691with local jurisdictions. That goes a lot further than the1692bullying that we see from this Administration. That only1693increases the distrust that we are seeing at the Federal level,1694between the Federal level, the State, and local level.1695    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, I yield back, Mr. Chair.1696    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Roy?1697    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair, thank you for holding this1698hearing. Mr. Redman, thank you for your service in law1699enforcement. Ms. Gorman and Mr. Abraham, sorry for your loss, I1700have gotten to know all too often too many Angel Families, too1701many people in my home State of Texas who have lost loved ones1702due to the absolute, abject failure of leaders in both parties,1703to be very clear.1704    I will be a little partisan here, and very specifically the1705previous Administration, in particular, and my colleagues on1706the other side of the aisle, and their absolute refusal to1707secure the border. Ms. Gorman, it struck me that you noted that1708we had this poster, and it alluded to the extent to which the1709Federal Government, in particular, and law enforcement in this1710country failed you, and failed your daughter more importantly1711at multiple levels across the board.1712    That is really important, especially in light of the1713questioning we just heard from the Ranking Member of the Full1714Committee with Ms. Pierce, who is appearing before us here1715today. Ms. Pierce, now you have worked previously for USCIS in1716the previous Administration, is that correct?1717    Ms. Pierce. During both the previous Administration and1718this Administration, yes.1719    Mr. Roy. You have been testifying here at the questioning1720about the resources, and the lack of resources for local-law1721enforcement, and grants not being given out, but then dollars1722that have been set aside for ICE. The question here is how much1723taxpayer funds should have to be spent right now, how many1724taxpayer dollars of current American taxpayers should have to1725be spent to go round up illegal aliens?1726    Ms. Pierce. Unfortunately, the better question is how that1727money should be spent, not how much.1728    Mr. Roy. Wait a minute, no, I actually think it matters how1729much. Because with all due respect, Ms. Pierce, you were1730working under the previous Administration, if I remember1731correctly, with Safe Mobility Offices. Safe Mobility Offices,1732now these were offices that were directed and designated toward1733helping people move through our security system to get to the1734United States.1735    To end run the processes along the way, to exploit asylum1736laws, to exploit parole laws to funnel people into the United1737States. That was precisely what was happening in the previous1738Administration, we know this to be true. Then, to sit here and1739listen to this exchange about what we are doing with our1740resources really strikes me as pretty hypocritical.1741    Given the extent to which we have dangerous people in the1742United States that have been killing innocent Americans because1743the previous Administration and the people who worked for it1744were working directly, specifically to end run the laws of the1745United States, putting the dangerous people on the streets that1746resulted in the death of Ms. Gorman's daughter and Mr.1747Abraham's family.1748    I have gotten to know Jocelyn Nungaray as a dear friend, or1749her mother, Alexis Nungaray as a dear friend for the loss of1750her daughter Jocelyn. We are well advised by Laken Riley, we1751are well advised of those who have lost loved ones, Kayla1752Hamilton, and many others, and we are hearing more here. You1753are right, Ms. Gorman, we can't have enough.1754    We can keep having hearings and allowing these people to1755put pictures up of the people who have been murdered because we1756allow our borders to be used as some sort of plaything. Now,1757today the U.S. Supreme Court manufacturing out of thin air a1758complete abomination of a ruling by the chief justice,1759suggesting that you can simply become a citizen from being born1760on dirt.1761    Thereby validating the abhorrent practice of baby factories1762and moving people here to be born to be able to become a1763citizen, leaving us under no choice but to do what we must do1764to say pause immigration, just stop it, stop all immigration.1765Because if it is going to be exploited for people to come here1766when they are pregnant, to allow somebody who is working for1767the Chinese Communist Party, and to come here and have children1768who become American citizens.1769    Then, have our laws exploited like they were under the1770previous Administration; it is why this Congress should act to1771pause all immigration. This Congress should act immediately to1772codify what the President has been doing to close the loopholes1773under asylum and parole, the catch and release policies.1774    To codify those that a future Biden and Mayorkas1775Administration cannot do to the American people what these1776radical leftists did to the American people, and then dare sit1777here and testify under questioning by my colleagues that we1778need to have more taxpayer money going to the local1779jurisdictions to make up for what they caused.1780    Then, criticize the Administration and this Congress for1781putting money aside for ICE and Border Patrol to do the job1782that Administration wouldn't do. By the way, get that funding1783by having to figure out how to use reconciliation to do it,1784because Democrats refuse to appropriate money to secure our1785communities, and to make sure that our people would not be1786murdered.1787    It is the absolute chutzpah to be here testifying, having1788had a hand in South America working to end run our laws, and1789put people into the United States that resulted in the deaths1790of the American people. I yield back.1791    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Nadler?1792    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair, let me begin by offering my deepest1793condolences to Ms. Gorman and Mr. Abraham. The loss of a child1794is unimaginable and is something no parent should ever face.1795Mr. Chair, Republicans want to coerce States and localities1796into furthering the Trump Administration's extreme anti-1797immigrant agenda.1798    With masked agents murdering American citizens in the1799streets, tearing children away from their parents, and1800detention facilities that have their highest death rate in1801decades and fail to meet the basic medical and sanitary needs1802of detainees. It is no wonder that many States and localities1803have chosen not to use their limited resources to aid and abet1804the Trump Administration's reckless, chaotic, and inhumane mass1805deportation campaign.1806    Some communities have concluded that certain forms of1807cooperation with Federal immigration authorities such as1808detaining immigrants past their sentences without a judicial1809order raise constitutional concerns and can even put them at1810risk of legal liability.1811    In many cases States and localities have determined that1812taking on the Federal responsibility to enforce immigration1813laws would destroy trust between immigrants and local-law1814enforcement, which would make everyone less safe. They believe1815that their communities are at greater risk when a victim of1816domestic violence is afraid to ask the police for protection1817from her abuser for fear of deportation.1818    When witnesses to a murder refuse to assist law enforcement1819in tracking down their perpetrator because they are afraid1820their immigration status will be discovered. Republicans1821actually want to punish these communities by denying them1822billions of dollars in funding that they need to protect public1823safety. Federal immigration authorities are perfectly capable1824of enforcing Federal law on their own.1825    In fact, they are swimming in money, Congress has given1826them $240 billion in little more than a year with no guardrails1827attached. With this money, these agencies have assembled a1828massive force consisting of tens of thousands of agents who1829have flooded our streets to carry out Donald Trump's brutal and1830reckless campaign to strike fear in immigrant communities1831across the country.1832    That is what the Committee should be examining today. Ms.1833Pierce, immigration enforcement is the responsibility of the1834Federal Government, and the DHS has unprecedented resources and1835historic levels of funding. Does the Federal Government have1836the resources and personnel necessary to enforce immigration1837law, or does it need to usurp State resources?1838    Ms. Pierce. As you said, sir, ICE has unprecedented1839resources. At the moment we should assess what they can do with1840those resources before we have them usurp local resources.1841    Mr. Nadler. Thank you. Ms. Pierce, the Trump Administration1842claims that it is only going after the worst of the worst, and1843targeting criminals, but according to ICE's own data, the1844majority of immigrants they have detained have no criminal1845record. In fact, this Administration's mass deportation agenda1846is wreaking havoc on communities across the country.1847    Now, Republicans want to force States, cities, and1848localities to participate in this lawless, and dangerous1849scheme--1850    Mr. Knott. Will the gentleman yield?1851    Mr. Nadler. No. Is the Trump Administration really going1852after the worst of the worst?1853    Ms. Pierce. No, sir. According to ICE's own data, more than185470 percent of individuals in detention have no criminal1855records, and another recent analysis said only three percent of1856those individuals in detention have violent criminal1857convictions.1858    Mr. Nadler. Ms. Pierce, can you explain why Administrative1859ICE detainers often raise constitutional concerns, and can1860create liability for States, cities, and localities?1861    Ms. Pierce. Because they don't create new legal authority1862for a new detention. If an individual is done with their1863criminal custody, then the local-law enforcement agency needs a1864new authority to continue detaining that individual. A detainer1865is just a suggestion from ICE, or a request from ICE that local1866jurisdiction continue to hold that individual.1867    It doesn't create a new legal authority, and as a result,1868some jurisdictions have had to pay hundreds of millions of1869dollars in civil liabilities and settlements for holding1870individuals beyond the time that they were supposed to be1871released from custody.1872    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Pierce. The Trump Administration1873has diverted over 28,000 officers from their law enforcement1874roles in the Federal Government to do immigration enforcement.1875How does this shifting focus from criminal enforcement to1876immigration enforcement hurt public safety?1877    Ms. Pierce. I feel like very few people would argue that1878taking officers who were focused on violent crime, child1879exploitation, human trafficking, firearms trafficking, fentanyl1880smuggling, and putting them instead to focus on civil1881immigration enforcement, that doesn't increase public safety,1882it pulls individuals away from their primary public safety1883missions.1884    Also, unfortunately, this Administration has failed to1885answer questions from Congress about how many, exactly, agents1886were pulled away from their primary public safety duties. What1887analysis if any was done prior to pulling them about what that1888would do to their primary public safety missions. What would it1889do to the open cases that they abandon to focus instead on1890increasing immigration enforcement?1891    We haven't heard a word from this Administration about1892whether or not they are weighing those important public safety1893considerations.1894    Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Ms. Pierce. My time is expired; I1895yield back.1896    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Van Drew?1897    Mr. Van Drew. Thank you, Chair. I am going to say it is1898telling the truth time, and first I want to thank you,1899especially Mr. Abraham and Ms. Gorman, you must be so tired, so1900worn out, it is like probably a surreal world, it is like hell1901on earth. Condolences don't do it. The only thing we can ever1902do is by actions.1903    Because the truth matters, and you are in a place right now1904in Washington, DC, I am not going to go into it because I only1905have five minutes, you could talk about it for hours, where a1906lot of times the truth doesn't matter. You hear so much BS, and1907so much debating, political philosophy, and the reality is you1908guys are here because you don't want other kids to die, that is1909all it is about.1910    Both of you I don't necessarily believe are usually people1911who want to be having orations, debates, speaking out, and all1912the, forgive me, BS goes on around you, and it swirls around1913you, man, it gets old. It is tell the truth time. The truth is1914it doesn't matter if we do this four times, 40 times, 4001915times, or 4,000 damn times.1916    It needs to be done because innocent children and people1917have lost their lives, or have been dismembered, or have been1918raped, or have been injured, and it didn't have to be that way.1919I don't know how damn clear, you made it so clear, you both1920articulated so well, there are no words. We know what the truth1921is about, the truth is in sanctuary cities, people die because1922it is a sanctuary city.1923    Ms. Pierce, forgive me, but we have people that were on the1924street because it was a sanctuary city, or a sanctuary county,1925or a sanctuary State, or a jurisdiction, whatever it was, and1926people are not walking, and living on this earth because of1927that policy.1928    I don't mean to be mean to you, I understand you are just1929doing your job here, but all the politically Left gobbledygook,1930and the statistics, and all the stuff you are moving around,1931that doesn't mean anything to them. Look to the right, and look1932to the left, and tell them about all your political stuff, and1933all that you have done, all that Left-wing political nonsense1934doesn't mean anything to them.1935    Their kids aren't alive, that is all that matters to them.1936That is all that will matter for the rest of their lives. The1937truth is somebody said that we don't know the definition of a1938sanctuary city, yes, we do, it is a place where we don't1939cooperate with Federal officials. When we have somebody who is1940a bad person, who broke a crime besides being illegal, we don't1941cooperate.1942    You know why there are so many problems in the Blue cities?1943Because they don't cooperate, because ICE does not want to go1944out and have crowd control, they don't want to be involved in1945that, they don't want to have to do any of that. They want1946people when they are incarcerated, and they are illegal, to be1947notified, so they can send them out of the country.1948    Because I don't even want them imprisoned here. We can't1949afford it; they shouldn't be here. We pay for their clothing,1950we pay for their housing in some cases, we pay for their1951transportation. In New Jersey where I am from, it makes me sick1952to my stomach, we are paying for a legal defense fund for1953illegal criminals. We pay for their education, we can't afford1954it and we are tired of it.1955    Your issues are even more important because it is life and1956death. Ms. Pierce, and I don't think you are going to do--I1957have a request, but I don't think you will do it. I would1958really love you to look to your right, because they will look1959to you, and look to your left, tell them about all your1960numbers, all your grants, all your BS, and why we shouldn't1961arrest and deport people who are here illegally and commit1962crimes.1963    Do you want to do that? Explain to them, and also explain1964to the sheriff why you are correct, and he is wrong, even1965though he has been on the ground, and in the street, have you1966served in law enforcement, have you been a law enforcement1967official?1968    Ms. Pierce. No, sir.1969    Mr. Van Drew. OK, he has seen it, he has been on the1970street, he has seen the blood and the guts. This isn't some1971philosophical thing out in space we are talking about; these1972are real people who are really getting hurt because of bad1973politics. I have time for one question. In your testimony you1974listed, Ms. Pierce, four practical concerns that you say drive1975the needs for sanctuary policies.1976    We should have sanctuary policies because of your1977complicated formula here, community trust, local control, legal1978liability, and staffing. Can you look at them, and say that1979those four pillars of your thesis, or your idea, of your think1980tank are worth the lives of their children? I am just asking1981you a question, please answer it.1982    Ms. Pierce. Yes, I would love to answer it. The children of1983Mr. Abraham and Ms. Gorman should be alive. The fact that they1984are not is a travesty, and I am extremely apologetic about1985that--1986    Mr. Van Drew. It is because of your policies, you are the1987one doing it. No offense, but you are.1988    Ms. Pierce. I am here today to testify to the American1989people and to Congress about how Federal policies should1990operate. I am an expert on Federal policy--1991    Mr. Van Drew. I am out of time, thank you, I yield back.1992    Mr. McClintock. Ms. Ross?1993    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I too very sincerely want1994to express my condolences to Ms. Gorman and to Mr. Abraham.1995What happened to your children should never have happened, and1996Ms. Gorman, I look forward to sitting on the bench. I do want1997to share, because I know every single one of my police chiefs,1998and I know my sheriff.1999    I do want to share how important it is that our local-law2000enforcement get funding, and get grants so they can prevent2001crimes, respond to crimes, and make sure our communities are2002safe. That is from everybody who commits crimes, illegal2003immigrants, legal immigrants, and American citizens, we need to2004make sure we give our law enforcement at the local level2005closest to the community the tools that they need.2006    Every single time I can get a community project for my2007local-law enforcement, I do it. I am however very concerned2008that the Trump Administration has stopped some of the grants to2009local-law enforcement to help hire new officers, to get the2010equipment that they need. I understand that we now have2011unprecedented investment in ICE and CBP, and that there are a2012whole lot of hiring and bonuses.2013    My local-law enforcement sometimes loses some of their best2014people to ICE and CBP, but it is a free country and take the2015job that you think you should be doing, I think that is fine. I2016want to know a little bit more about these grants. I was2017concerned, Ms. Pierce, I didn't know you were going to mention2018that North Carolina, which is my home State, was one of the2019States that hasn't gotten grants.2020    We are not a sanctuary city State, so could you talk a2021little bit more about the grants that my State has lost?2022Because we are not doing the things that my friends on the2023other side of the aisle claim are so bad.2024    Ms. Pierce. Absolutely. The grants I mentioned that have2025been delayed, the Fiscal Year 2025 grants, the $4.5 billion2026that should have been given out more than nine months ago, they2027actually should be going to every single State in the country.2028Majority on this Committee, because I think that this is a real2029issue--2030    Ms. Ross. The States, you mean.2031    Ms. Pierce. I am sorry, the States, thank you. Represented2032by the Majority on this Committee, because I think this is a2033real and important issue that this Committee should be2034examining. Every single State in the United States is missing2035public safety grant funding that should have been given to them2036more than nine months ago.2037    Ms. Ross. Could you tell me what that grant funding would2038go toward?2039    Ms. Pierce. Funding from the Office of Justice Programs2040goes to a wide variety of resources that help protect local2041safety. They go to law enforcement officers to help with2042hiring, to help with officer training, and to help with officer2043wellness. They also go to organizations out in the community2044that help represent individuals.2045    It also goes to organizations that help prevent gun2046violence. A variety of issues all designed to increase public2047safety in the United States.2048    Ms. Ross. OK, I wanted to ask, I only have about a minute2049and a half, but you briefly mentioned how there has been2050diversion from child exploitation cases, could you explain how2051agents have been pulled off child exploitation cases?2052    Ms. Pierce. Absolutely. Homeland Security Investigations is2053a wing of ICE. Unfortunately, this Administration has pulled2054many of the individuals who specialize in the specific crimes2055that HSI focuses on to instead focus on immigration2056enforcement, and that includes individuals focused on child2057exploitation cases.2058    These are very specialized agents that work on these cases.2059When they leave them, the cases can't just be picked back up at2060a later time, instead the evidence gets outdated, more children2061are vulnerable to exploitation, and predators get longer to2062work on them. It is extremely concerning that this2063Administration would pull investigators from those cases.2064    Ms. Ross. Have they been pulled from human trafficking2065cases?2066    Ms. Pierce. Yes, absolutely. Homeland Security2067Investigations, which has lost so many agents to instead focus2068on civil immigration enforcement, also focuses on human2069trafficking, drug smuggling, cartels, a variety of issues that2070are very important to the public safety of the United States.2071    Ms. Ross. OK, thank you, I yield back.2072    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady yields back. Mr. Moore?2073    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Ms. Gorman, thank you for2074being here today. Mr. Abraham, certainly sorry for your loss.2075Sheriff, we hear a lot of talk about grants and funding, but it2076seems like to me you have a bigger problem with some of the2077laws actually, you may have the resources to do some things2078sometimes.2079    It seems like State laws, sanctuary States, and cities, and2080communities actually create a bigger hurdle for you sometimes.2081What specific authority or cooperation do you need to prevent a2082removable offender from being released back into the community2083before ICE can take lawful custody?2084    Sheriff Redman. Thank you. We don't spend a whole lot of2085resources on any type of immigration enforcement, we have no2086authority to do that. When I keep hearing that our resources2087are tapped, what they are actually tapped into is when they2088come into our custody, that is where we are getting hit by2089these sanctuary laws, where it is impacting my budget, precious2090jail bed spaces.2091    That has a huge impact, it is not that we are out there2092doing any type of enforcement, we never have, and we never2093will, that is a Federal component of the government. What we2094need to have happen is those low-level offenses that don't fall2095within California SB 54, the 16 I mentioned, and Ms. Pierce did2096put out some numbers.2097    Out of seven that I gave over to ICE, I had 16 that I could2098not turn over because they did not meet the high-level offenses2099where I could cooperate with ICE, and those were released back2100into the community, I need that to change.2101    Mr. Moore. I was talking to a judge who is a friend of2102mine, and under the prior Administration, he would actually2103have people in his courtroom that were driving under the2104influence that were here illegally, and very often if he turned2105them over, they would take them down the road and turn them2106loose. Angel and Jeremy Seay actually died in my community.2107    A drunk driver, Mr. Abraham, much like what you described,2108they had him, they turned him loose, he was a repeat offender,2109and then he was back out on the street again, and ultimately2110killed two newlyweds, young newlyweds. Ms. Gorman, I understand2111that the individual that murdered Sheridan had been in prior2112custody, and they had been released.2113    Do you want to tell me a little bit about the details? And2114then if you don't mind, tell us what real accountability looks2115like to your families, and to the communities when we have2116these sanctuary jurisdictions?2117    Ms. Gorman. Sure. I just have to say that I am not a2118lawmaker, and I am not a politician, but one of the things that2119I searched on ChatGPT of all things, when we found out that2120Sheridan was murdered by an illegal immigrant, and when we2121found out what Angel Families were, I was curious. One night I2122went online, and I said how many people have been killed by2123illegal immigrants in Chicago, or in Illinois, I did both.2124    Do you know what the answer was? Without being point blank,2125it basically said that Chicago police are not allowed to track2126that information, they are not allowed to ask, so we don't2127know. The answer is we don't know how many people have been2128killed by illegal immigrants in Chicago or in Illinois. In my2129opinion that is the biggest part.2130    We keep talking about programs being taken away, and2131funding, it is about cooperation, it is about sitting on that2132bench together and just saying I am going to tell you my side,2133you tell me yours and let us find a way to cooperate. I don't2134think that the sanctuary cities are cooperating. Yes, this man2135apparently came across the border and was actually asked the2136questions.2137    Which apparently you would know about, because you were2138helping facilitating people coming over illegally. Asked the2139questions whether they claim asylum, are they in danger, and2140need to be rescued by the United States, and this man actually2141answered no, and yet we took him anyway. There are so many2142steps.2143    Yes, this man was arrested, he was arrested when he came to2144Chicago for stealing at a Macy's apparently, and then because2145of cashless bail policies, they just released him back on the2146street. The original intent I believe of cashless bail was that2147these people are from our community, so the chances of them2148coming back to court are high because they are part of the2149community.2150    That doesn't apply to illegal immigrants, this man didn't2151have an address. The fact that he was even released on his own2152recognizance, how do we know this man is not even using a2153different name? We trust that the name he gave himself is Jose2154Medina. There is so much wrong with these policies, cashless2155bail, sanctuary cities, it is a roundabout.2156    The sad thing is that I've had to educate myself, my2157husband, we have had to educate ourselves on immigration law.2158Really it is disgusting, there is so many little loopholes, and2159the fact that Chicago is not even allowed to ask if someone who2160commits a murder is an illegal immigrant, they are not allowed2161to store that information, that should tell you everything you2162need to know.2163    It is an evasive game of shifting cards, and shifting2164blame, and frankly, yes, sitting here, when yes, I am thankful2165my daughter wasn't dismembered. I need people to think about2166that. You don't have to be a parent to feel the pain that we2167are feeling, and the betrayal. One of the things that happened,2168I am sorry I have done this, but one of the things that2169happened is we are in Chicago getting ready to claim my2170daughter's body.2171    The mayor there is naming a truck Abolish ICE, standing,2172laughing, and joking while my daughter was just murdered there.2173Like what?2174    Mr. Moore. Thank you, Ms. Gorman. I yield back, Mr. Chair.2175    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time is expired. Mr. Knott?2176    Ms. Gorman. Sorry about that.2177    Mr. Knott. No, no, Ms. Gorman, Mr. Abraham, thank you for2178your testimony today. Sheriff, thank you for your service, Ms.2179Pierce, thank you for being here. I again, I stated this often2180as the father of two precious girls, I can't imagine being in2181your chair, and I am sorry. Because again, we have not only a2182refusal to apologize for the policies, but we are trying to2183bake in the lie that these crimes were unavoidable.2184    That is the lie that no one will talk about. Both of these2185crimes were avoidable; they should never have happened.2186Unfortunately, for my colleagues on the other side, had2187President Trump been in office from 2000-2024, both of your2188daughters would be alive. That is the elephant in the room2189here. That is the absolute elephant in the room.2190    The idea that these crimes are unavoidable is one of the2191biggest lies that I can't really tolerate anymore, I really2192can't. Look at Jose Medina, apprehended by the Border Patrol on2193May 9, 2023. He told immigration officials he did not have any2194fear of harm or death. He was marked by Border Patrol as2195someone who was likely to abscond.2196    He asked to be deported to Columbia. He could not provide2197any point of contact inside the United States. The Democrats2198behind Biden-Harris programmatically ushered him into the2199country, paying for his healthcare, his food, and his clothing.2200My colleagues here today on the other side will not say it was2201avoidable.2202    He was arrested for theft, he did not show up to court, two2203crimes. Not a conviction, this is very important, it was not a2204conviction, two crimes. They say we don't deport anybody unless2205they have a conviction, well it is very hard to convict someone2206when you don't prosecute them. He then murdered a precious2207American child, a young lady for doing nothing more than2208looking at the Northern Lights.2209    Again, it is the biggest lie that is being told in2210Congress, that these crimes are unavoidable. The second case,2211Mr. Abraham's daughter, you said that Mr. Bol was deported once2212before, do you know what he was deported for?2213    Mr. Abraham. I don't know why, I can't get that information2214from Illinois, but he was--2215    Mr. Knott. You can't get it from Illinois?2216    Mr. Abraham. No.2217    Mr. Knott. I wonder why.2218    Mr. Abraham. I can't get anything from Illinois. He was2219also using aliases, he was presenting himself as a Mexican2220national, not a Guatemalan national. Federal agencies knew2221that, but the State didn't bother checking.2222    Mr. Knott. Yes, well I can tell both of you I did work in2223the Department of Justice under President Obama, under2224President Trump, and under President Biden. It was a2225programmatic effort to bring as many people into the country as2226they could, and to keep them here regardless of what they did.2227I do have to ask you, Ms. Pierce, one question.2228    You said that sanctuary jurisdictions do not prevent ICE or2229immigration enforcement. Do you stand by that comment?2230    Ms. Pierce. Yes, sir.2231    Mr. Knott. We have heard testimony in this Committee of2232sanctuary jurisdictions that consider immigration consequences2233before they finalize cases, before they charge cases, before2234they plead cases, are you aware of that?2235    Ms. Pierce. Yes, sir.2236    Mr. Knott. Will you condemn that?2237    Ms. Pierce. That both U.S. citizens and immigrants should2238be charged, and treated--2239    Mr. Knott. I didn't ask that. Will you condemn considering2240immigration policies before charging or resolving cases?2241    Ms. Pierce. I don't think immigration should be a2242consideration when we are talking about criminal law--2243    Mr. Knott. Because when they do that, it does affect2244immigration enforcement, correct?2245    Ms. Pierce. We are not talking about criminal law; we are2246not talking about civil immigration enforcement.2247    Mr. Knott. I am talking about criminal illegal immigrants,2248ma'am. Someone sat in that very chair and said I will release2249somebody if they are an illegal immigrant and they are charged2250with a serious felony; I questioned them two weeks ago. That2251would affect immigration enforcement, would it not?2252    Ms. Pierce. ICE can pick them up whether or not they are2253charged, sir.2254    Mr. Knott. Asking a Biden official to talk about border2255policy is pretty laughable, I have got to say so. It is past2256time that we as Americans do stand up and say that American2257children are treasures, they are unique. Protecting them should2258be our foremost priority. That is impossible when you embrace2259open borders. That is impossible when you welcome people from2260all over the world, regardless of who they are here.2261    Mr. McClintock. Thank you.2262    Mr. Knott. Thank you, I yield back.2263    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time is expired. Ms.2264Scanlon?2265    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Chair. At this point I feel2266like I shouldn't be surprised by some of the wild stories and2267fantasies that Republicans on this Committee have embraced when2268they talk about sanctuary cities to really ramp up political2269drama, even if is at the expense of individuals' pain and2270personal tragedy, but it is always jarring to hear the lies2271being embraced.2272    According to our Republican colleagues, most immigrants to2273our country are criminals, despite the overwhelming evidence,2274and as even Ms. Gorman said, ``we have good immigrants among2275us.''2276    Ms. Gorman. They came here legally, so they aren't2277criminals.2278    Ms. Scanlon. Exactly, but that distinction seems to get2279lost on this Committee. Evidence is immigrants are actually2280more law abiding that Native born Americans overall, and we2281have the fact that over 70 percent of the immigrants detained2282by this Administration actually have no criminal record either2283here or in their home countries. According to our Republican2284colleagues, sanctuary policies block ICE from doing its job.2285    According to our Republican colleagues, elected officials2286in cities with so called sanctuary jurisdictions are scheming2287to protect immigrant criminals at the expense of their own2288constituents, or they are not prosecuting immigrants who commit2289crimes. How could any of that actually be possible? No one2290would agree to elect officials who deliberately make their own2291communities less safe.2292    No one would agree to live in such places. Law enforcement2293professionals are not in the practice of endangering their2294communities by allowing criminals, no matter where they came2295from, to run rampant. These arguments become a complete2296distortion of the truth about policies that cities and States2297put in place to improve trust, cooperation, and ultimately2298safety in those communities.2299    Here is the reality, over and over again, congressional2300Republicans have used this Committee to support the Trump2301Administration as it tries to force State and local-law2302enforcement to use their own limited resources to do the2303Federal Government's job. Even though they have sent almost a2304quarter trillion dollars to DHS and ICE.2305    To support this Administration's chaotic, out of control,2306mass deportation agenda that both doesn't go after the worst of2307the worst, and has actively harmed, endangered, and even killed2308innocent people, including American citizens. In doing so, our2309colleagues have supported the defunding of law enforcement by2310blocking resources for local police.2311    Diverting resources at the Federal level for fighting child2312trafficking, terrorism, drug trafficking, corporate overreach,2313fraud, and more. Ms. Pierce, we have heard a lot of rhetoric2314about so-called sanctuary jurisdictions, but I think it is2315pretty well established now that there isn't even a single2316definition for that term.2317    Can you describe for us what sanctuary policies actually2318do, what their purpose is, where they have been adopted, and2319what effect do they have?2320    Ms. Pierce. Thank you. Jurisdictions adopt sanctuary2321policies, or policies in which they limit the amount that they2322cooperate with civil immigration enforcement to protect their2323own resources, to protect their criminal and civil liability to2324protect their communities, and the trust that they have2325established with their local communities. Those policies limit2326how much they lend their resources to ICE to do civil2327immigration enforcement.2328    Ms. Scanlon. I am just trying to make plain, or2329understandable how sanctuary policies protect local resources.2330How does that work, how does going the extra yard--well first,2331are there any jurisdictions in the country that you are aware2332of that actually violate Federal law with respect to2333cooperating with ICE where it is required by law?2334    Ms. Pierce. Not that I am aware of, no.2335    Ms. Scanlon. OK, not that I am aware of either. There is2336this middle ground where ICE would like local jurisdictions to2337take extra steps to detain people longer on the local dime, or2338to take other actions that actually cost our cities and States2339money, can you talk about that a little bit?2340    Ms. Pierce. Yes, absolutely. An ICE detainer for example,2341requesting that a local jurisdiction hold someone beyond the2342time that they would be in criminal custody, that takes up jail2343space, as well as personnel time. Then it also subjects that2344local jurisdiction to legal liability for which they can be2345charged hundreds of millions of dollars in liabilities, or in2346civil settlements.2347    Ms. Scanlon. That legal liability is if, for example, ICE2348wants someone detained who shouldn't be detained?2349    Ms. Pierce. If ICE fails to establish probable cause, or2350another legal authority to hold someone beyond the time that2351they would be in criminal custody, yes, that local jurisdiction2352holds the legal liability for holding that individual beyond2353their time in custody.2354    Mr. McClintock. The gentlelady's time is expired. Mr. Fry?2355    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, I yield back.2356    Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I really appreciate the2357witnesses, Ms. Gorman and Mr. Abraham, you are being here today2358sharing that. It is incredibly brave. It is not an easy thing2359to do.2360    I appreciate you being here and talking about your2361children. Talking about the failures of the system and what2362would have resulted if we had actually done our job, if the2363Government had done its job.2364    Ms. Pierce, the Ranking Member of this Subcommittee, has2365sponsored legislation in the past to abolish ICE. Do you2366believe that we should abolish ICE?2367    Ms. Pierce. No, sir.2368    Mr. Fry. When people call ICE slave camps or the Gestapo,2369do you believe that this is an accurate reflection of ICE?2370    Ms. Pierce. There are a lot of problems with the current2371approach to immigration enforcement. No, I would not use those2372words.2373    Mr. Fry. Why do you think, as the Democrat witness here2374today, which is that you would disagree with the Ranking Member2375of the Subcommittee and other Members of this Committee and2376this Congress that want to abolish ICE, why do you think that2377we should not abolish ICE?2378    Ms. Pierce. Immigration enforcement has a role in keeping2379us all safe and a role in the proper function of our2380government.2381    Mr. Fry. Do you believe that is where most of Americans are2382at, is they also want to abolish ICE?2383    Ms. Pierce. No, sir.2384    Mr. Fry. Why do you think that is?2385    Ms. Pierce. In the United States, we care a lot about our2386laws being enforced.2387    Mr. Fry. Enforcement, what a novel concept. When the last2388Administration, you have had a lot of criticisms in this2389hearing today about this Administration. What do you think the2390last Administration failed at, just briefly?2391    Ms. Pierce. The last Administration could have done more,2392and more quickly, to control the Southern border.2393    Mr. Fry. In what way?2394    Ms. Pierce. Limiting the benefits given to individuals2395crossing the Southern border, when it comes especially to2396asylum.2397    Mr. Fry. Don't give them free stuff, right? Don't open, is2398that what you are saying? Limiting the benefits? Don't give2399them free stuff that incentivizes them. Do you think that this2400incentivizes them to come to the country?2401    Ms. Pierce. No asylum seeker gets free stuff. To be clear,2402I am talking about the benefit of asylum, an immigration2403benefit.2404    Mr. Fry. In your written testimony, you wrote that there is2405a smarter path the Trump Administration can do with sanctuary2406jurisdictions, and highlighting how some jurisdictions may be2407willing to cooperate in serious cases.2408    You also wrote that focus immigration enforcement on2409serious public safety threats. What do you consider a serious2410case or a serious public safety threat?2411    Ms. Pierce. We could look at criminal law, we can look at2412violations, then we can decide which of those are more2413concerning.2414    Mr. Fry. Well, you are the expert, so I am asking you, what2415do you consider, this is in your public testimony, what do you2416consider a serious case or a serious public safety threat?2417    Ms. Pierce. There is a lot to that answer that I would like2418more time than five minutes to consider.2419    Mr. Fry. Well, like what? Like a felony, would a felony be2420considered a serious case?2421    Ms. Pierce. Absolutely.2422    Mr. Fry. Like a DUI, would that be considered a serious2423case?2424    Ms. Pierce. It depends on the circumstances. A DUI is an2425extremely serious violation.2426    Mr. Fry. What about in the case of Mr. Abraham's daughter?2427A DUI, a prior charge or conviction, would that be considered a2428serious case?2429    Ms. Pierce. A DUI is a significant violation of our laws.2430    Mr. Fry. What about shoplifting?2431    Ms. Pierce. Again, it is a significant violation of our2432laws.2433    Mr. Fry. Now, shoplifting is, I guess, a misdemeanor. Would2434you still consider shoplifting a serious case?2435    Ms. Pierce. In my testimony, I talked about how this2436Administration should work with local jurisdictions to decide2437with them what are serious cases. Where are those jurisdictions2438willing to lend local resources to help ICE do its job?2439    That those conversations would be more fruitful than this2440Administration's approach, which is instead to name and shame2441jurisdictions that it sees as not cooperating.2442    Mr. Fry. The question is like, what do you consider a2443serious case. In the case of a DUI or shoplifting as in Ms.2444Gorman, those would be considered serious cases. I am glad you2445actually did that. I am glad you disagree with the Ranking2446Member.2447    Ms. Gorman, did you watch any of President Trump's State of2448the Union speech? Did you watch any of President Trump's State2449of the Union speech?2450    Ms. Gorman. Yes.2451    Mr. Fry. When the President asked, I am going to paraphrase2452loosely, that ``it is the duty of public servants in Congress2453to protect the safety and security of American citizens.'' Do2454you remember that moment?2455    Ms. Gorman. Yes.2456    Mr. Fry. What happened at that moment?2457    Ms. Gorman. I am sorry, say it again.2458    Mr. Fry. What happened at that moment?2459    Ms. Gorman. They booed and acted up.2460    Mr. Fry. Did anyone stand?2461    Ms. Gorman. No one, the Democrats didn't respond.2462    Mr. Fry. I don't know if your microphone is on or not.2463    Ms. Gorman. Oh. They didn't respond.2464    Mr. Fry. They didn't respond. What did you think? What did2465you feel at that moment?2466    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2467    Mr. Fry. Could she answer?2468    Ms. Gorman. How did I feel? I felt outraged. Outrage that2469our politicians who we choose, don't choose us in return. That2470is how I felt.2471    Mr. Fry. Thank you.2472    Ms. Gorman. I feel outraged that this guy who, yes, he2473might have only committed a misdemeanor, but he murdered my2474daughter. He was on the streets to murder my daughter, 1002475percent preventable. He could have been scooped up twice and he2476wasn't. He was allowed to murder my daughter.2477    Mr. Fry. He should have never been here. Thank you for2478that. Mr. Chair, I yield back.2479    Mr. McClintock. Thank you. Mr. Hunt?2480    Mr. Hunt. Sheridan Gorman, Katie Abraham, Chloe Polzin,2481Jocelyn Nungaray, Rachel Morin, Megan Bos, Lizbeth Medina,2482DaCara Thompson, and many more. Say their names.2483    Say their names. Sheridan, Katie, Chloe, Lincoln, Jocelyn,2484Rachel, Megan, Lizbeth, and DaCara. May you rest in peace.2485    These are Americans. These are people's children. It is2486their family members, their friends. Every single one of the2487names that I just mentioned deserve the chance to pursue the2488American dream.2489    Every last one of them deserves to grow up and build a2490future and live in a country that is safe, secure, and governed2491simply by the rule of law. The rule of law that I fought in2492combat to fight for every single American.2493    Instead, these stories end in tragedy. These tragedies were2494preventable. When Democrat leaders refuse to cooperate with2495Federal immigration enforcement, Americans bear the deadly2496consequences.2497    I am disgusted by my colleagues that fight so hard for the2498rights of people that have no business being here in the first2499place.2500    This should not be a political debate. We are talking about2501real people and real families whose lives cannot be replaced2502ever again.2503    Entering the United States illegally does not create a2504right to remain here indefinitely. For whatever reason, this is2505a political football. It is very cut and dry.2506    This is very simple for someone like me. Let's consider2507this, this has already been stated. In just 10 months, New York2508released nearly 7,000 aliens subject to ICE detainers.2509    We are talking about crimes that include 29 murders, 2,5002510assaults, 200 burglaries, 300 robberies, and hundreds of sexual2511assaults. We are allowing these criminals and these animals2512back into our midst.2513    Government's first responsibility is to protect our2514citizens. Anything less than that is a derelict of duty and a2515failure of leadership. In this case, the intentional failure of2516leadership is done for political purposes.2517    Our Chair was speaking earlier during his opening remarks2518talking about 10 million people that have entered this country2519illegally that we know of. I have heard 15, I have heard 20. I2520don't give a damn how many it is. It is one too many.2521    Especially people that come here and rape and maim our2522babies. This is why I get up and do this job every single day,2523because I have babies too.2524    I see these pictures that are in front of me and I weep for2525you, because I see my babies in these photos. That could have2526been one of mine as well.2527    If we don't do our jobs up here on Capitol Hill, we are2528going to have more pictures. We are going to have more murders,2529and we are going to have more rapes. This is the bottom line.2530    This is not a partisan issue. Ms. Gorman, Mr. Abraham, I2531want to thank you so much for being here. I want to offer you2532my deepest condolences. Thank you so much for being here.2533    Ma'am, I know this has to be very difficult. You are doing2534it in the name of your baby. She is looking down on you and she2535is very, very proud of you for doing this. I can assure you.2536    Sheriff, thank you very much for being here as well. Last2537year, sir, you did a Fox News interview in which you mentioned2538that under the direction of Gavin Newsome, you received a2539threatening letter from the Attorney General of California,2540because of your pledge to work with law enforcement. Is this2541true, sir?2542    Sheriff Redman. Yes, sir. It is.2543    Mr. Hunt. With my remaining time, sir, what would be your2544message to Governor Gavin Newsome and Democrat leaders across2545this country, who persist with these homicidal sanctuary2546policies?2547    Sheriff, do you think that it is normal for the Governor2548and Attorney General of a State to tell a member of law2549enforcement to not cooperate with law enforcement?2550    Sheriff Redman. No, I do not. It puts me in a very hard2551position. Once again, I will continue to do what I believe is2552right. My message is really clear, in California, stop2553championing the criminals and let's start championing the2554victims, sir.2555    Mr. Hunt. Amen. We are killing each other from within. That2556is how this country comes to an end, not from anybody from the2557outside.2558    Because we allow 10 million people to enter our country2559illegally, and then we make excuses for them after they murder2560our babies. That is insanity.2561    No other country operates like that. Neither should we. I2562yield back the remainder of my time. Thank you all so much, and2563I offer you my deepest condolences. Thank you all.2564    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired. Mr.2565Grothman?2566    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. First, I want to clean up some of2567the things that have been said here in the past.2568    When people talk about the number of crimes committed who2569are people, by people in this country illegally and people2570claim that they are more law abiding than the Native born here.2571The reason they can make that statement is nobody keeps track2572of the number of crimes who are committed by people here2573illegally.2574    Right, if I walk into a Wisconsin jail and ask the sheriff2575how many of these people are illegal immigrants? He has no2576clue.2577    We have got a Federal prison in Wisconsin, and I have2578toured the Fderal prison, and I ask the warden of the Federal2579prison, how many of these people here in this prison are people2580who are illegal? He has no idea.2581    Whenever you hear a politician say that people who are here2582illegally are committing less crimes than the native born, they2583don't have a clue.2584    The second thing I want to point out is, because they are2585lost in the debate, the huge number of people who come here2586legally every year. They try to set those of us up who want the2587current law enforced as being some mean people who won't let2588anybody in here.2589    Right now, on a rolling average every year, we have about2590800,000 new people sworn in as new citizens. Eight hundred2591thousand.2592    If you look at that historically, it is high. When I was a2593child, that number was around 200,000. We are right now letting2594in, legally, a very high number.2595    Right now, in this country, one-sixth of the people are2596foreign-born. We have never had so many people in our country2597foreign born as we do now.2598    That is more than even in the late 1800s when we had all2599the immigration from Eastern Europe, and Germany, and what have2600you. For whatever reason, they don't talk about that.2601    Now, if we do believe in immigration laws, we should remove2602the people who tried to sneak in here illegally. That to me is2603also obvious.2604    In so far, as nobody knows exactly how many and so far as2605President Biden let eight million people in this country2606illegally, if we are going to have our laws mean anything, it2607means ICE, and Border Patrol, and whoever should remove those2608eight million people.2609    I don't know any serious person who believes we should only2610remove people who have committed a serious crime. Right? If2611eight million people came here illegally, eight million people2612should be removed.2613    Now, we have had a long hearing here, and we are having2614this hearing because of the horrific acts committed by people2615who are in this country illegally. Sometimes it is easy to2616forget the wonderful people whose lives were cut short by the2617zeal of what I think is the Democrat Party trying to change2618America as quickly as they can and letting everybody under the2619sun come here.2620    In any event, we will start with Mr. Abraham. Do you want2621to share with us a little bit of your daughter's history, and2622what her dreams were, so that whoever is listening today can2623see what life was cut short because of letting all these people2624in our country illegally?2625    Mr. Abraham. Yes. Katie was a special person for sure. She2626had this unique personality, drew everyone in and always made2627people feel seen and heard.2628    I actually want to ask questions. Actually, Ms. Pierce, and2629then the Congresswoman who kind of stepped away scowling, the2630inconsistencies I am struggling with here.2631    They are complaining about children being exploited. I2632didn't hear these voices from 2021-2025. Were you talking about2633that too? Because maybe I wasn't paying attention.2634    As wonderful as Katie was and how she got sacrificed by2635awful policies, she was sacrificed, there is no question about2636it. People knew a preventable outcome.2637    This is part of the equation and calculation. OK? This is2638100 percent, I believe. It just seems to me strike the2639inconsistencies that, oh, we are so worried about now, I don't2640know.2641    Over the last four years, nothing, not a word from anybody.2642I am just confused, I guess. I don't want to talk about it,2643because I don't think anyone here cares.2644    I don't want to waste my breath on that. I just want to2645know why the inconsistency? Why does it only one side and the2646other?2647    That is what I would like to know. We will talk after this.2648I would love to hear how you are saying now is important, but2649back then it wasn't important, anyway.2650    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. It comes from there, just people2651want to dramatically change this country. They will go through,2652ignore any ounce of commonsense to change America.2653    Ms. Gorman, would you like to tell us at all about your2654daughter's future?2655    Mr. McClintock. I am afraid I am going to have to2656interrupt. We are going to have to save that for the next2657question, because the gentleman's time has expired. We will go2658to Chair Jordan.2659    Mr. Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me start with, well,2660let me go back to Mr. Abraham. Your daughter went to school in2661Ohio, is that right?2662    Did I? When we talked in our office a couple months ago.2663    Mr. Abraham. Yes, it was Ohio. Ohio University Bobcat.2664    Mr. Jordan. Yes. Yes. What was she majoring in?2665    Mr. Abraham. She was going to be in marketing. Yes.2666    Mr. Jordan. We got a big journalism school there. I2667wondered if she was going to be a journalist. Well, I know she2668was a lovely young lady. Sheriff, your State is a sanctuary2669State, is that right?2670    Sheriff Redman. Correct, sir.2671    Mr. Jordan. Yes. Even if you wanted to enter into these2672287G agreements that Ms. Pierce was kind of alluding to, where2673you can work with the Federal Government in enforcing Federal2674law relative to immigration, you are not allowed to do that in2675your State, is that right?2676    Sheriff Redman. Correct, sir.2677    Mr. Jordan. You decided you are going to do the right2678thing.2679    Sheriff Redman. Yes.2680    Mr. Jordan. You are going to work with them, right?2681    Sheriff Redman. Yes.2682    Mr. Jordan. Guess what? If we had passed the Bill that Mr.2683McClintock is the sponsor of, that we have already passed out2684of this Committee, you would be protected.2685    It says you couldn't face any kind of repercussions or2686consequences from the State if you would, if that law would be2687passed. Right now, you are just doing it because it is the2688right darn thing to do. Is it really that hard?2689    Ms. Pierce said it is tough to do. It is a cost on2690counties. It is basically honoring the detainer notice.2691    My understanding of what, well, I have seen these notices.2692It is like, hey, if you are going to release so-and-so, who we2693know is an illegal migrant, who was in your detention center or2694your jail, because it has been alleged he has committed some2695other crime, if you are going to release him, just call us.2696Give us a heads up 48 hours before you release him. How is that2697an additional cost for the county or the city?2698    Sheriff Redman. There is no cost. In fact, that is probably2699the most efficient way. What I have been hearing is, the2700Federal resources have now been reallocated, and it is all2701because of sanctuary laws.2702    Instead of going to the jails where it is extremely2703efficient, now they have to go out into the community, which is2704not safer.2705    Mr. Jordan. Jeopardizing the safety of law enforcement,2706jeopardizing the safety of the public. Maybe just as2707importantly, jeopardizing the safety of the migrant, right?2708    Sheriff Redman. One hundred percent, sir.2709    Mr. Jordan. Yes. That is why I used the word dumb three2710times in my opening statement, because I have yet to figure out2711anything smart about this policy that is now, as I said, in2712almost a third of the Nation lives in a jurisdiction where that2713is the policy. That is just crazy.2714    Ms. Gorman, I know it is not easy to talk about, but the2715individual who took your daughter's life, Jose Medina, do you2716know when he was apprehended by border patrol?2717    Ms. Gorman. May 9, 2023.2718    Mr. Jordan. May 9, 2023, during the Biden Administration.2719When they were letting in 10 million people.2720    Mr. Abraham, when was your, the guy who took the life of2721your precious daughter, when was he apprehended?2722    Mr. Abraham. He reentered easily 2022, using false2723documents and aliases.2724    Mr. Jordan. In 2022, during the Biden Administration. They2725let in 10 million people, right? Just let them in.2726    OK. Do you know what, do you know, Ms. Gorman, what Mr.2727Medina happened to say at his interview when he was, he was2728apprehended by Border Patrol. You know what he happened to say2729at his interview?2730    Ms. Gorman. Yes, sir. As I understand it, he said he was2731not claiming--2732    Mr. Jordan. Put your microphone, if you would, please.2733Thank you.2734    Ms. Gorman. As I understand it, he was asked the standard2735questions, of whether he was claiming asylum and whether he2736felt threatened or scared to return to his country. He was in2737Columbia at the time.2738    He answered negatively. No, he was not afraid. No, he was2739not claiming asylum. We took him anyway. That is my2740understanding.2741    Mr. Jordan. He gets asked the question, is there a credible2742fear of persecution or harm in your country? His answer was no.2743    Ms. Gorman. No.2744    Mr. Jordan. I just want to come to the U.S., because it is2745great, best country ever. He just wanted to come here.2746    The agents and people who were doing the interview said,2747``he is likely to not show up.'' He is likely to abscond,2748right?2749    Ms. Gorman. Yep.2750    Mr. Jordan. OK.2751    Ms. Gorman. Yet, they gave him cashless bail after he2752committed a crime in Chicago.2753    Mr. Jordan. After that crime too. I am getting to that. He2754gets charged a few months later, or sometime later he gets2755charged with a crime, right? Did it. They released him. They2756don't call.2757    Ms. Gorman. Nope.2758    Mr. Jordan. They don't have an 287G, because Chicago and2759Illinois are sanctuary cities and sanctuary State. He gets2760charged with the crime, and he gets released. Does he show up2761for his court date?2762    Ms. Gorman. Of course not.2763    Mr. Jordan. Of course not. Did local authorities ever once2764think of calling ICE?2765    Ms. Gorman. No.2766    Mr. Jordan. No. They didn't have a sheriff like the guy2767sitting beside you, like Sheriff Redman. They didn't have that.2768Then, this terrible thing happens. That is what we are trying2769to change.2770    Ms. Gorman. Yes.2771    Mr. Jordan. I don't think, to me, I don't get it either,2772because it sure doesn't seem that hard to me. It seems like--2773    Ms. Gorman. Commonsense.2774    Mr. Jordan. There you said it. Commonsense. I actually2775think, I am going to get really political here, but I actually2776think this midterm election is really, I said this in an2777interview the other day.2778    You could summarize it in two sentences. They are crazy. We2779are not. Right? Because this policy is crazy. It is crazy2780versus commonsense as the President said.2781    This is the most commonsense thing. Just work, let the2782sheriff work with you. He wants to work with you in California,2783let him do it. Not being maybe violating the law for doing the2784commonsense thing for goodness sake. I want to again, thank you2785all for coming.2786    Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?2787    Mr. Jordan. I will yield the four-seconds to the right2788and--2789    Mr. Nadler. I want to say I agree with you.2790    Mr. Jordan. Well, God bless you.2791    Mr. Nadler. One is crazy and one isn't. The only question--2792    Mr. Jordan. You figured it out on your way out the door,2793Mr. Nadler. That is great to know.2794    Mr. Nadler. The only question is which way?2795    Mr. Jordan. All right. I yield back. I want to do this2796again if I could, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the Chair of this2797Subcommittee. He is the sponsor of the Bill that fixes it.2798    He has been working on this issue, and so many others that2799are commonsense things we need to do to make it work.2800    Mr. McClintock. I hate to interrupt the Chair. His time,2801especially on that subject, but his time has expired. Mr.2802Onder.2803    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to all the2804witnesses for being here today. It is utterly devastating to2805think of the damage that has been done in America's largest2806cities today, because of the embrace of sanctuary city2807policies.2808    Ms. Gorman, Mr. Abraham, I am so deeply sorry for the loss2809of your daughters. I commend you for your courage in being here2810today, and bearing witness to the insanity, the almost sadistic2811cruelty represented by the politically and ideologically driven2812sanctuary policies of these jurisdictions that one-third of2813Americans are forced to live in today. Thank you. Thank you for2814being here.2815    Sanctuary policies create a safe haven for criminal illegal2816aliens. They embolden repeat offenders and they make our2817communities less safe.2818    Americans all over the country are subject to senseless2819violence. When State governments like Illinois refuse to honor2820ICE detainers, and criminal illegal aliens are released into2821the public without repercussions, there are consequences.2822    For example, even after the horrific sexual assault of a2823three-year-old girl by an illegal alien whose ICE detainer was2824ignored by the Chicago Police Department, the Chicago PD's only2825response was, ``They remain committed to protecting all Chicago2826residents, regardless of their immigration status.''2827    Tell me that the governing class in Chicago cares about2828Americans. They are putting illegal aliens first and American2829citizens last.2830    In Missouri in 2008, we had the foresight to ban sanctuary2831cities. Actually, we passed a piece of legislation called House2832Bill 1549. It was my Bill; it was at the time probably the2833strongest State law in the country to fight illegal2834immigration.2835    We banned sanctuary cities. We have a lot of crazy Left2836Democrat politicians in St. Louis, Columbia, Kansas City,2837Springfield in Missouri, but we don't have any sanctuary cities2838because of our foresight to get ahead of this.2839    Back when folks said you are just being an alarmist, you2840are racist, or you are xenophobic. Actually, I am happy to say,2841quite a few of my Democrat colleagues back then joined me in2842supporting that Bill, because it just represented commonsense.2843    We cannot treat our immigration laws with the contempt that2844we are seeing out of sanctuary jurisdictions in this country2845today. I just wanted to ask you, Ms. Gorman, if you had ever an2846opinion on this, what policy changes do you hope to see so that2847other families aren't subjected to the pain and just the misery2848that you have been?2849    Ms. Gorman. I really am not educated on the specific2850policies. I have been reading a lot about them. Obviously, the2851sanctuary policies that they have, combined with cashless bail,2852combined with failure to follow actual Federal law that is2853already in place. I don't know that there really needs to be2854much that is changed. As long as you follow the Federal law,2855then--2856    Mr. Onder. Yes. You are not a lawyer. You are not a2857criminologist. You are not a subject matter expert. This is2858just--2859    Ms. Gorman. If they had followed the Federal law, my2860daughter would be sitting next to me right now.2861    Mr. Onder. Yes.2862    Ms. Gorman. I would be on a beach somewhere, not sitting2863here.2864    Mr. Onder. If any of my Democrat colleagues have troubles2865with that law, there is a place you can go, it is called a2866legislature, specifically Congress, where you can change laws2867that have been on the books since at least 1965. You can change2868those laws.2869    Instead, we are going to take it on ourselves and our2870sanctuary jurisdictions to be like John C. Calhoun. We are just2871going to nullify Federal law. We are just not going to2872cooperate with law enforcement.2873    Mr. Abraham, what are your thoughts?2874    Mr. Abraham. Yes, I agree. First, you can't nullify Federal2875law and then have no process to fill the vacuum.2876    Mr. Onder. Yes.2877    Mr. Abraham. You want 10 million illegals apparently or2878whatever it is, or just 10 million immigrants, do it the proper2879way. Do it the way my parents did.2880    Mr. Onder. Yes.2881    Mr. Abraham. I learned on their knee, right?2882    Mr. Onder. Yes.2883    Mr. Abraham. What happened in the prior Administration,2884that crazy unprecedented recklessness, and now you are2885objecting to correcting some of the past?2886    Mr. Onder. Absolutely not.2887    Mr. Abraham. It is just so dishonest.2888    Mr. Onder. Absolutely.2889    Mr. Abraham. I am not even sure what to say with that.2890    Mr. Onder. I do want to echo the sentiments of my2891colleague, Representative Grothman. The United States of2892America has nothing to apologize for regarding our immigration2893policies.2894    We let millions of legal foreigners into our country. We2895give some of them green cards, we naturalize some of them who2896do it legally.2897    It is not fair for all those around the world who are2898waiting to do it the right way, that some get to jump the line.2899Some of those are criminals who victimize our families.2900    Mr. Abraham. Our job, your jobs are not to incentivize,2901entice, and bring people like you saw at that Southern, was2902that compassionate? Was that compassion?2903    Mr. Onder. Of course.2904    Mr. Abraham. I saw those. That wasn't compassion.2905    Mr. Onder. Of course it wasn't.2906    Mr. Abraham. It is not our job to do that.2907    Mr. Onder. Thank you.2908    Mr. McClintock. The Ranking Member wants to remind you2909that--2910    Mr. Abraham. We did not see a good environment.2911    Mr. McClintock. The gentleman's time has expired.2912    Mr. Onder. Thank you for that.2913    Mr. McClintock. For my time, Mr. Abraham, go ahead. Finish2914answering your question on my time.2915    Mr. Abraham. I would just say that the job and the role of2916this country is not to entice and go out and pull in, right?2917    Create the best country you can. People will come; you have2918a process. They say about, well, citizens create more crime2919than illegal immigrants. Even if this is true--2920    Mr. McClintock. It is not.2921    Mr. Abraham. As human nature, then you ought to assume the2922similar type of percentage will create havoc here. Filter them2923out.2924    Mr. McClintock. Mr. Abraham, by the way, that is not true.2925    Mr. Abraham. I agree. It is not true.2926    Mr. McClintock. We have had a lot of testimony to that2927extent.2928    Mr. Abraham. I agree. It is distorted.2929    Ms. Gorman. We are not allowed to know that information and2930track it.2931    Mr. McClintock. The illegal alien population commits crimes2932at a higher rate than the general population. We see that in2933the SCAAP numbers, for example.2934    One way they hide these numbers is by simply refusing to2935report illegal alien crimes.2936    Mr. Abraham. Exactly. Illinois doesn't, and they will never2937figure it out.2938    Mr. McClintock. I do need to set the record straight on2939claims we heard from Ms. Pierce and Ms. Scanlon.2940    The fact is, of the aliens arrested by ICE during President2941Trump's first year of the second term, 70 percent had a2942conviction or pending criminal charges.2943    That doesn't include the number of aliens who have criminal2944histories in their home countries but not in the U.S., or2945aliens without criminal histories but who are gang members or2946terrorists. That is one of the games they play.2947    I would like to ask unanimous consent to enter into the2948record an article entitled ``Seven in 10 ICE arrests under2949Trump have criminal histories,'' from the Washington Examiner,2950December 26, 2025.2951    Mr. McClintock. Without objection. Sheriff Redmond, we hear2952several arguments from the Democrats in defense of so-called2953sanctuary laws. The first one you have already addressed, the2954question of resources.2955    Let me ask you another question in that respect. What is2956more taxing to local-law enforcement, turning an illegal alien2957over to ICE while they are in your custody?2958    Having ICE to send squads into the community to arrest that2959same alien because you are forbidden under sanctuary laws from2960reporting that alien to ICE?2961    Sheriff Redman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Obviously, sending in2962ICE into my community poses some significant issues and2963problems when we are not allowed to cooperate and be there.2964    There are interoperability issues. The fact that we know2965our community, we know the players, and we know the2966neighborhood. If something goes down, then we are not involved,2967that is not safe for my community. The locals should be2968involved.2969    Mr. McClintock. Without those sanctuary laws, you could2970turn that individual who is already safely in custody over to2971ICE without any of those problems, correct?2972    Sheriff Redman. Correct. Correct, absolutely. With those2973low-level offenses.2974    Mr. McClintock. Yet, the Democrats keep telling us about2975the terrible consequences of having, to send ICE squads to2976arrest illegal aliens who could have been turned over while in2977custody, but under their laws, law enforcement was forbidden2978from doing so.2979    Another argument we hear is that honoring ICE detainers2980would discourage illegal aliens from reporting crimes. What is2981your response?2982    Sheriff Redman. My response is, I met with our local2983migrants in my community. We are a rural county with a huge2984winery.2985    They had a litany of questions for me. I sat down and2986talked to their representative, and after our conversation,2987they want to feel safe. They want to be safe. They do trust law2988enforcement. They do not want criminals because of these2989migrants--2990    Mr. McClintock. In fact, they are the first victims of2991these criminal illegal aliens--2992    Sheriff Redman. Correct, right.2993    Mr. McClintock. That the Democrats are requiring be allowed2994back into our communities. Is that not the case?2995    Sheriff Redman. Correct. The illegals will prey on their2996own people, because they know that they don't want to say2997anything.2998    Mr. McClintock. Another one is that, well, a Federal2999judicial warrant should be required. How do you obtain a3000Federal judicial warrant for a State crime or for a civil3001deportation?3002    Sheriff Redman. You can't.3003    Mr. McClintock. We have had testimony on that from other3004witnesses as well. You can't. That is another one of the games3005they play. They know that. They use that as an excuse not to3006enforce the law.3007    Sheridan's murderer was in custody for shoplifting. Under3008SB 54, California Sanctuary Law, is that considered a low-level3009crime that forbids you from honoring an ICE detainer,3010shoplifting?3011    Sheriff Redman. Yes, sir.3012    Mr. McClintock. What other crimes are required by law to3013keep secret from the public and from ICE? Burglary?3014    Sheriff Redman. Yes.3015    Mr. McClintock. DUI?3016    Sheriff Redman. Yes.3017    Mr. McClintock. Welfare fraud?3018    Sheriff Redman. Yes.3019    Mr. McClintock. Yet, Ms. Pierce tells us these are not3020serious crimes. Another one of the games that they play.3021    Could you just walk us through, very quickly, how you would3022honor an ICE detainer if you had the legal authority from the3023State of California to do so?3024    You would get a request from ICE to notify them when an3025illegal alien is about to be released from custody. Is that3026correct?3027    Sheriff Redman. That is correct.3028    Mr. McClintock. You got a written legal detainer request?3029    Sheriff Redman. Correct.3030    Mr. McClintock. What would you do in response to that3031request?3032    Sheriff Redman. If we were able to contact ICE, we would3033immediately notify them and let them know this person is--3034    Mr. McClintock. You would pick up the phone and call them3035and say, ``We are about to release this individual unless you3036want to come pick them up?''3037    Sheriff Redman. Yes, sir.3038    Mr. McClintock. Does that represent a serious drain on3039county resources?3040    Sheriff Redman. Not at all. We do it all the time.3041    Mr. McClintock. Is that worth the life--3042    Ms. Gorman. Of my daughter?3043    Mr. McClintock. Of Sheridan Gorman? Many of the other angel3044families that we have here? Or Katie Abraham?3045    Sheriff Redman. One hundred percent.3046    Mr. McClintock. That is what they are saying, is it is not3047worth a phone call.3048    Well, my time has expired. That concludes today's hearing,3049I believe. I want to thank our witnesses for appearing before3050the Subcommittee today.3051    Without objection, all members will have five legislative3052days to submit additional written questions for the witnesses3053or additional materials for the record.3054    With that and without objection, the hearing is adjourned.3055    [Whereupon, at 5:20 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]30563057    All materials submitted for the record by the Members of3058the Subcommittee on Immigration Integrity, Security, and3059Enforce-3060ment can be found at the following links: https://3061docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=119421.30623063                                 [all]