“Combating Waste, Fraud, and Abuse in SNAP”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                        COMBATING WASTE, FRAUD,5                           AND ABUSE IN SNAP6=======================================================================78                                HEARING910                               BEFORE THE1112                      SUBCOMMITTEE ON DELIVERING ON13                          GOVERNMENT EFFICIENCY1415                                 OF THE1617              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM1819                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2021                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2223                             SECOND SESSION2425                               __________2627                             JUNE 25, 20262829                               __________3031                           Serial No. 119-673233                               __________3435Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3637[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839    Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov4041                                __________4243                        U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4464-138 PDF                     WASHINGTON : 202645=======================================================================4647              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM4849                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman5051Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Robert Garcia, California, Ranking52Mike Turner, Ohio                        Minority Member53Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of54Virginia Foxx, North Carolina            Columbia55Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts56Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois57Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California58Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland59Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio60Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico61Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Maxwell Frost, Florida62Pat Fallon, Texas                    Greg Casar, Texas63Byron Donalds, Florida               Jasmine Crockett, Texas64Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Emily Randall, Washington65William Timmons, South Carolina      Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia66Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Yassamin Ansari, Arizona67Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Wesley Bell, Missouri68Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Lateefah Simon, California69Nick Langworthy, New York            Dave Min, California70Eric Burlison, Missouri              James Walkinshaw, Virginia71Elijah Crane, Arizona                Christian Menefee, Texas72Brian Jack, Georgia                  Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts73John McGuire, Virginia               Rashida Tlaib, Michigan74Brandon Gill, Texas75Richard McCormick, Georgia7677                                 ------7879                       Mark Marin, Staff Director80                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director81                     Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel82                      Peter Warren, Senior Advisor83                          Jack Furla, Counsel84                     Luke Moll, Research Assistant85         Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk8687                      Contact Number: 202-225-50748889                Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director90                      Contact Number: 202-225-505191                                 ------9293       Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency (DOGE)9495                   Tim Burchett, Tennessee, Chairman9697Michael Cloud, Texas                 Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico,98Nancy Mace, South Carolina               Ranking Member99Pat Fallon, Texas                    Elanor Holmes Norton, District of100William Timmons, South Carolina          Columbia101Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Stephen Lynch, Massachusetts102Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Maxwell Frost, Florida103Eric Burlison, Missouri              Greg Casar, Texas104Brian Jack, Georgia                  Jasmine Crockett, Texas105Brandon Gill, Texas                  Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia106                                     James Walkinshaw, Virginia107108                        C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S109110                              ----------111112                           OPENING STATEMENTS113114                                                                   Page115116Hon. Tim Burchett, U.S. Representative, Chairman.................     1117118Hon. Melanie Stansbury, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member......     2119120                               WITNESSES121122Hon. John Walk, Inspector General, U.S. Department of Agriculture123Oral Statement...................................................     5124125Ms. Dawn Royal, Former President and Current Director, United126  Council on Welfare Fraud127Oral Statement...................................................     7128129Ms. Rachel Greszler, Senior Research Fellow, Advancing American130  Freedom131Oral Statement...................................................     8132133Ms. Gina Plata-Nino (Minority Witness), Director of SNAP Policy134  and Advocacy, Food Research and Action Center135Oral Statement...................................................    10136137Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.138  House of Representatives Document Repository at:139  docs.house.gov.140141                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS142143  * Letter, to Newsom re SNAP data; submitted by Rep. Burchett.144145  * Report, FGA, ``Why Food Stamp Program Integrity is More146  Important Now Than Ever''; submitted by Rep. Jack.147148  * Letter, Dated May 6, 2026, to Commerce re NSO Group;149  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.150151  * Letter, Dated March 9, 2026, to DHS CISA re DOGE SSA OIG;152  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.153154  * Letter, Dated October 6, 2025, to DHS re Spyware; submitted155  by Rep. Stansbury.156157  * Letter, Dated August 6, 2025, to Flock; submitted by Rep.158  Stansbury.159160  * Letter, Dated February 6, 2025, from Dem Members, to IGs re161  Musk; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.162163  * Letter, Dated April 17, 2025, to SSA OIG re Master Data;164  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.165166  * Letter, Dated September 23, 2025, to SSA re Borges167  Disclosure; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.168169  * Letter, Dated May 15, 2025, to TIGTA re IRS Tech; submitted170  by Rep. Stansbury.171172  * Letter, Dated February 25, 2025, to Trump; submitted by Rep.173  Stansbury.174175  * Letters, Dated March 12, 2025, to 24 Agencies re DOGE AI;176  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.177178  * Staff Report, Committee Democrats, ``Abandoning Americans to179  Disease''; submitted by Rep. Stansbury.180181  * Letter, Dated April 17, 2026, to OPM OMB re FEHB PII Data;182  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.183184  * Letter, Dated March 9, 2026, to SSA OIG re DOJ Court Update;185  submitted by Rep. Stansbury.186187  * Statement for Record from Urban Institute; submitted by Rep.188  Stansbury.189190The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.191192                          ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS193194  * Questions for the Record: Ms. Gina Plata-Nino; submitted by195  Rep. Stansbury.196197These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be198  available upon request.199200                        COMBATING WASTE, FRAUD,201                           AND ABUSE IN SNAP202203                              ----------204205                        THURSDAY, JUNE 25, 2026206207                     U.S. House of Representatives208209              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform210211          Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency212213                                                   Washington, D.C.214215    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:01 a.m.,216Room 2154, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Tim Burchett,217[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.218    Present: Representatives Burchett, Cloud, Fallon, Timmons,219Luna, Burlison, Jack, Gill, Stansbury, and Walkinshaw.220    Mr. Burchett. This hearing on the Subcommittee on221Delivering on Government Efficiency will come to order. I want222to welcome everyone. Without objection, the Chair may declare a223recess at any time. And I recognize myself for the purpose of224making an opening statement.225226           OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN TIM BURCHETT227228                 REPRESENTATIVE FROM TENNESSEE229230    Good morning. I want to welcome everybody. We are here to231examine waste, fraud, and abuse in one of the largest232government welfare programs. The Supplemental Nutrition233Assistance Program (SNAP), also known as food stamps, provides234$100 billion annually in Federal food assistance. Every dollar235from this program is intended to help feed eligible individuals236in need.237    That is not where every dollar goes, not by a long shot. In238one state, food stamp enrollees own more than 14,000 luxury239vehicles, including Lamborghinis and Bentleys, due to an240eligibility loophole. And in 2024, $10 billion in food stamps241benefits were improperly paid out by the states, which are242charged with administering the program. The Government243Accountability Office reports that these payment errors are244mostly failures to verify recipients met all eligibility245criteria such as being in the country legally.246    Loopholes and incorrect payments are costly enough, but the247tax dollars lost to outright fraud may be greater. For248instance, the Government Accountability Office estimated that249trafficking in food stamps is a $5 billion annual industry.250Trafficking occurs when a crooked store owner profits off251taxpayers by turning benefits into cash. For example, a252customer swipes the Electronic Benefits Transfer (EBT) card for253$200 in groceries. The clerk gives back $100 cash and pockets254the difference. The customer then uses the cash to buy255ineligible items such as alcohol or cigarettes.256    To address fraud in Federal benefit programs, the President257created, in March, the White House Task Force to Eliminate258Fraud, led by Vice President Vance. Building on DOGE efforts,259the task force is working to eliminate data silos that make it260hard to access the data needed to verify recipient eligibility261and to flag potential fraud. If food stamp recipients' data262stays in state-specific databases, for instance, individuals263may apply for and receive benefits from multiple states.264    That is why Agricultural Secretary Brooke Rollins requested265food stamp beneficiary and transaction data for the past five266years from all 50 states and Washington, D.C. Data came in from26729 states, nearly all under Republican governance, including my268own State of Tennessee. With the data received, the Agriculture269Department reports identifying $3 billion in potential fraud270and waste, including benefits being sent to 186,000 dead271people, to 442,000 applicants with fraudulent Social Security272numbers, and to hundreds of thousands of individuals who got273duplicate benefits by submitting applications to multiple274jurisdictions.275    But we do not know the full extent of the problems because276many states, including some of those with the most food stamp277beneficiaries like California, refused to comply with278Agriculture Department's data request. And that is very279disappointing. The fight against fraud should not be a partisan280issue.281    That is why yesterday I sent request letters to the282noncompliant states with the highest number of food stamp283beneficiaries. My letter demands to know why they refuse to284release data about Federal taxpayer-funded spending. It also285demands their communication and correspondence about the286Administration's data request. Federal taxpayers deserve to287know what Governor Newsom and his counterparts in other states288are trying to hide and at what cost. Congress must provide289safeguards and oversight on these programs.290    With that, I yield to my co-chair, Ms. Stansbury, for her291opening remarks, otherwise known as Ranking Member.292293              OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER294295       MELANIE STANSBURY, REPRESENTATIVE FROM NEW MEXICO296297    Ms. Stansbury. All right. Well, good morning, everyone.298Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to our witnesses for being299here today.300    And it is great to finally have a formal hearing again and301be on the record, as this Subcommittee has had a long absence302from formal hearings. In fact, by our count, it has been eight303months since this Committee has been on the record, and so I304want to congratulate the Chairman on his first official305hearing, and I am eager to get into this conversation.306    And certainly, there are lots of bipartisan efforts that307can be identified to address waste, fraud, and abuse in Federal308programming and to root out improper payments and fraud in309Federal support programs. And we can prove it. House Democrats310and Republicans worked together to pass over eight oversight311bills this month aimed at rooting out financial fraud and312improper payments. But we remain skeptical and strongly opposed313to efforts to use this as a front to try to further gut public314assistance programs. In fact, we have seen over the last year315and a half as this Administration and this Majority has used316waste, fraud, and abuse as a front to try to gut basic programs317that feed our children.318    I think that all of us can agree that in one of the319wealthiest countries on planet Earth, there should not be320hungry children. But over the last year and a half, we have321seen one of the most dramatic increases in hunger in modern322time. In fact, recent reports have revealed that the United323States is experiencing the highest rates of hunger since before324the pandemic. One in five children right now are currently325going without meals, one in five children in the United States.326    And because of the Big Ugly Bill that was passed last year327on July 4 and signed into law, a report this week in ProPublica328revealed that over 770,000 American children are going without329meals because of the Big Ugly Bill that Donald Trump pushed330through with the support of this Majority on the backs of the331American people, which we know has also affected 3.5 million332Americans' access to food assistance. This is a moral failure.333This is not just a policy argument. This is a moral failure in334one of the richest countries on planet Earth.335    What we have seen, not just through the Big Ugly Bill, but336through the sustained attacks on the SNAP, Special Supplemental337Nutrition Program for Women, Infants, and Children (WIC), and338other food assistance programs that have happened during this339Congress and this Administration, is that it has chipped away340at the ability of families to access these programs. While341these supposed work requirements and other paperwork342requirements are intended, supposedly, to address waste, fraud,343and abuse, they have instead created barriers that are344significant enough to cause millions of families to lose access345to basic food. This is a public health crisis. Food is not just346essential to life, but access to healthy food is also essential347for children's development, for their health, for their ability348to thrive.349    And so, while President Trump is taking away food from350hungry kids, we have also seen economic policies that have351caused the cost of food to skyrocket. The price of food and352vegetables has increased by six percent since May of last year.353Energy costs have increased by 23 percent since last year. And354when you couple that with cuts in access to healthcare, cuts in355access to food assistance, cuts in access to educational356assistance, and the fact that yesterday the President of the357United States failed to show up to sign a housing bill that was358bipartisan, that would have helped millions of families across359the United States access housing assistance, we have never seen360in, I believe, modern times, an administration that is so anti-361family and so anti-working family as we have seen over the last362several months. It is hurting our children. It is on the backs363of our people.364    Meanwhile, we are back to this DOGE Subcommittee. DOGE has365effectively been killed within the Administration because of366the significant breaking of the law that has happened over the367last year and a half of laying off workers, gutting programs,368and doing so without congressional consent. Court orders have369ordered them to rehire, to rebuild, and yet this Administration370continues to ignore the law.371    And here we are, once again, attacking a fundamental372program that supports our families. If we were actually serious373about rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse, we would be374investigating the 21 Inspectors General who were fired by this375Administration. We would be investigating the thousands of376investigators in these Federal programs who were laid off by377DOGE, who are actually the people who look into waste, fraud,378and abuse. If we were serious about rooting out waste, fraud,379and abuse, we would be investigating the millions of dollars380that this Administration just wasted on remodeling the381Reflecting Pool, and which is now disintegrating before our382eyes. We would be investigating what is happening with the383illegal demolition of the East Wing. We would be investigating384the Secretary of Defense, who not only used Federal taxpayer385dollars to buy lobster and steak dinners, but just asked this386body last night for billions of dollars more for an illegal war387that both the House and the Senate have already voted on a war388powers resolution is an illegal war.389    And so, while I appreciate that today is about390investigating waste, fraud, and abuse, and I appreciate the391oversight on states that have records of challenges, I would392also note that the five states to whom this letter was sent393have Democratic Governors. It was not sent to any states with394Republican Governors.395    So, I think we have to ask ourselves, what is this actually396about? Is this really about rooting out waste, fraud, and397abuse? Or is this about taking food out of the mouths of our398children?399    So, I look forward to the conversation, and with that, I400yield back.401    Mr. Burchett. Thank you.402    I would like to welcome our witnesses. First, we have John403Walk. Mr. Walk is the Inspector General for the U.S. Department404of Agriculture. Next, we have Dawn Royal, a former two-term405president and current Director of the United Council on Welfare406Fraud. Next, we have Rachel Greszler. Ms. Greszler is a Senior407Research Fellow at the Plymouth Institute for Free Enterprise408at Advancing American Freedom.409    And last, we have Gina Plata--I am sorry, ma'am. I know I410wanted to get it right. That is why I asked, Plata. Burchett,411nobody ever gets it right. Plata-Nino. So, thank you, ma'am.412And you are the Director of SNAP Policy and Advocacy at the413Food Research and Action Center.414    And I want to thank you all for joining us, and I look415forward to your testimony.416    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please417stand and raise their right hand.418    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you419are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing420but the truth, so help you God?421    Mr. Walk. I do.422    Ms. Royal. I do.423    Ms. Greszler. I do.424    Ms. Plata-Nino. I do.425    Mr. Burchett. Let the record show the witness has answered426in the affirmative. And thank you. You all may take your seats.427    And we appreciate you being here today and look forward to428your testimony. Let me remind the witnesses that we have read429your written statement, and it will appear in full in the430hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to 5 minutes.431As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in432front of you so that it is on and the Members can hear you.433When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn434green. After 4 minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the435red light comes on, your 5 minutes have expired, and we would436ask you to please wrap it up.437    I now recognize Inspector General Walk for his opening438statement. Sir, you are recognized.439440         STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN WALK, INSPECTOR GENERAL441442                 U.S. DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE443444    Mr. Walk. Chairman Burchett, Ranking Member Stansbury, and445Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for inviting me to446testify on Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program, SNAP,447fraud.448    SNAP fraud is a reprehensible crime that squanders the449compassion of American taxpayers who fund the program and robs450from those low-income Americans who qualify for SNAP benefits451to feed themselves and their families. SNAP fraud is not452confined to a single individual who engages in deceptive453practices to apply for SNAP benefits they are not eligible for.454Perpetrators of SNAP fraud include highly organized, tech-455savvy, sophisticated criminals that steal enormous sums of456money. Proceeds of SNAP fraud have gone to individuals linked457to terrorist groups, foreign adversary nations, and458transnational criminal organizations.459    SNAP fraud is not a victimless crime, although its victims460are often forgotten. They are the hardworking, taxpaying461American farmers, meatpackers, and truck drivers who deliver462produce from farm to family. All of America's taxpayers give463from the fruits of their labor to fund food assistance, showing464America's goodness to less fortunate neighbors, and they are465the victims of SNAP fraud.466    The other victims are the vulnerable and low-income467Americans who SNAP is intended to benefit, people like the468woman one of my special agents told me about, a working mom of469four, a SNAP recipient who discovered that her SNAP benefits470were all stolen from her electronic benefits transfer or EBT471card while attempting to pay for food at the grocery store. In472tears, she asked how she would feed her family for the month473until SNAP benefits would next be paid out. Just this week, I474spoke to another victim in New York, a working father of five,475whose SNAP EBT card was skimmed and benefits were remotely476drained.477    I have heard many stories from victims like these, working478moms and dads, in my six months as Inspector General. U.S.479Department of Agriculture Office of Inspector General (USDA480OIG) is working hard every single day on behalf of these481victims. They are why SNAP fraud matters.482    With limited time, I will highlight some of the prevalent483forms of SNAP fraud OIG encounters, though there are many484others. EBT card skimming is a serious concern. Criminals use485skimming technology to capture information such as the EBT card486number and PIN code. The data captured is then used to clone487the victim's EBT card. Criminals will then cash out at the488opportune time. The legitimate recipient is left without food489assistance.490    On this easel here is a picture of a skimmer that can be491overlaid to a point-of-sale device in as little as seven492seconds. The criminal now controls the EBT card and owns all493the dollars that will be loaded to that card.494    SNAP trafficking remains an investigatory priority. Today,495there are more than 250,000 food retail stores authorized to496exchange food for SNAP benefits. They then obtain Federal497reimbursement for the food they sell. You can think of them as498the providers in this program. Unscrupulous retailers will499instead use their stores to launder SNAP benefits. An500individual will exchange their EBT card for cash, and the501retailer will extract the remaining value from the card or sell502it.503    But it is not only cash. Picture it as a store in southern504California involved in an investigation by local and Federal505law enforcement that OIG supported. SNAP EBT cards were506trafficked for cash, exchanged with local gang members at that507location for crack cocaine. The gang members then use the508proceeds from those SNAP cards to purchase guns, all with tax509dollars. I will just repeat that. SNAP dollars, Federal tax510dollars, used to buy drugs and guns. And as the district511attorney of San Diego shared, just perpetuating the violence512already in some of our communities.513    EBT terminal fraud is also a growing concern. This scheme514allows fraudsters to impersonate an authorized retailer and515direct SNAP payments to their own bank account. In a recent516case, one case, the loss was $66 million.517    Deterring fraud requires exacting real consequences on518those who commit fraud. OIG will continue to investigate and519make arrests and support convictions. Although a strong law520enforcement response is critical, we cannot pay and chase our521way to stopping SNAP fraud. To be effective, we need to guard522the front door by ensuring that proper internal controls at523USDA and state-administering agencies are in place to prevent524fraud. Adopting modern technology to verify identity and other525applicant information before making payments is crucial.526    In addition to the ability to identify and prevent SNAP527fraud, we would benefit tremendously from improved information528sharing between the Federal Government and the states. Although529USDA maintains data on authorized retailers, individual states530maintain data on their own program participants, and access to531this information would allow Federal oversight to evaluate the532effectiveness of internal controls at the applicant level and533help fix vulnerabilities.534    Finally, low-tech security measures associated with SNAP535are outmatched by high-tech schemes. Fraud identification,536detection, and prevention systems should be updated to meet the537tactics and tools of modern fraudsters.538    Thank you again for the opportunity to testify before this539Subcommittee on this important topic. I would be pleased to540answer any questions you may have.541    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, General.542    Ms. Royal, you are recognized, ma'am.543544                  STATEMENT OF MS. DAWN ROYAL545546             FORMER PRESIDENT AND CURRENT DIRECTOR547548                UNITED COUNCIL ON WELFARE FRAUD549550    Ms. Royal. Chairman Burchett, Ranking Member Stansbury,551other Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the552opportunity to appear before you today.553    The United Council on Welfare Fraud is the only national554organization of investigators dedicated to protecting public555assistance from fraud, waste, and abuse. We are the556professionals dedicated to the prevention, investigation, and557prosecution of fraud, safeguarding billions of taxpayer dollars558to ensure our Nation's welfare programs remain strong to assist559those in need.560    I appear before you today as a certified welfare fraud561investigator with nearly two decades of experience,562representing hundreds of investigators who spend their days in563the trenches fighting the war against fraud, also advocating to564ensure the laws and regulations that are supposed to be565supporting these efforts do so.566    Unfortunately, too many of the safeguards of our Nation's567SNAP program have been weakened, delayed, or inconsistently568implemented. The result is predictable. Benefits have been569exploited, and public confidence has eroded.570    I first had the honor of appearing before this Subcommittee571nearly a year and a half ago to discuss the broader issues of572fraud. We provided our unique perspective from those dealing573with these issues and detailed our recommendations to this574panel, many of which were later echoed in the Committee's own575recommendations, so thank you on behalf of The United Council576on Welfare Fraud (UCOWF) and the beneficiaries we are577protecting.578    My message today with the focus on SNAP, 15 months after579the Subcommittee's first hearing, the passage of H.R. 1, and in580light of the nationwide fraud discoveries is more direct. The581time for reflection has passed. Action is needed now. SNAP is a582vital program, but it is broken. Congress has held hearings,583GAO has issued reports, and for its part, UCOWF has submitted584detailed recommendations to congressional committees, including585this one, to the White House Task Force to Eliminate Fraud, and586several Cabinet agencies. The bottom line, SNAP and the587beneficiaries who rely on it need you to act.588    So, what is missing? Where is the disconnect? Action,589accountability, and support. Growing up, like you, my family590taught me that actions speak louder than words, but even more591so what actions we take on a regular basis form our habits, and592that creates our character, illustrating our priorities. When593every week brings another screaming headline on another594uncovered fraudster, what does this tell us about where we595stand on curbing the incidence of SNAP fraud? If we care, as a596people, we act. If we do not, the results are predictable.597    I would like to share a brief anecdote. One of my598colleagues recently brought a case to our attention that599illustrates several of the ongoing problems in SNAP. One600address, a one-bedroom efficiency, had 27 SNAP and 12 Medicaid601beneficiaries. Logic would suggest it is impossible for all of602those beneficiaries to live in a one-bedroom apartment, but it603is--this is the program we have fostered. These are the types604of circumstances that we are dealing with.605    Or take another case that is a remnant of the COVID era,606long after the end of the public health emergency. There is607nothing an investigator, based on current Federal policy, can608do to prevent a SNAP beneficiary from using their EBT benefits609to have eligible items delivered to someone else in another610state. So, a recipient with an EBT card, issued from Nebraska,611can order a case of Red Bull on Walmart, Amazon, DoorDash, or612Uber Eats, and have it delivered to, or picked up, by someone613in Kentucky. This was permitted during the pandemic, but it is614one of the few COVID-era policies that has not been rescinded,615and it is fraud. Benefits delivery should be restricted to the616beneficiary's address of record. It is one of the few617safeguards the program has, and convenience of this sort only618encourages fraudulent behavior.619    My written testimony that builds on UCOWF's comments last620year--and I promise I will not go point by point but rather621refer it to you, as it represents a perspective of those622fighting the daily battles for all of us. Further, it also623serves as a blueprint for the work that still needs to be624accomplished not only to protect the millions of SNAP625beneficiaries but also the taxpayers underwriting the program.626    We urge Congress to legislate where authority is needed and627protect funds for program integrity. We urge USDA to fully628implement the laws and uniformly enforce its regulations.629Similarly, Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS) must630resolve the uncertainty fragmenting SNAP and Medicaid cases due631to its inaction. To enforce all of this, the Subcommittee, in632coordination with authorizers and appropriators, should require633written plans with named officials, measurable milestones,634public reporting, and consequences for missed deadlines.635    Program integrity and compassion are not competing values.636Strong oversight of SNAP program protects taxpayers and637recipients. Both parties have a stake in the continuing638viability of this program.639    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The dedicated professionals at640UCOWF are committed to helping you and your colleagues preserve641SNAP and the rest of our country's social welfare programs. And642I welcome questions from you and your colleagues.643    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Ms. Royal.644    Ms. Greszler, you are recognized for 5 minutes, ma'am.645646                STATEMENT OF MS. RACHEL GRESZLER647648                     SENIOR RESEARCH FELLOW649650                   ADVANCING AMERICAN FREEDOM651652    Ms. Greszler. Chairman Burchett, Ranking Member Stansbury,653and Members of the Committee, good morning, and thank you for654the opportunity to be here today. My name is Rachel Greszler,655and I am a Senior Research Fellow at Advancing American656Freedom.657    The American people must report every dollar they earn to658the Federal Government, and they face penalties, audits, and659potential prosecution if they do not pay the right amount. Yet,660there is remarkably little accountability for the $4.2 trillion661taxpayer dollars that Washington redistributes across about 100662Federal benefit programs. This lack of transparency and663accountability is the central problem underlying waste, fraud,664and abuse.665    A hundred and eighty-four billion dollars, that is the666amount that the Federal Government reported last year in667improper payments, and it is equivalent to about eight weeks of668gas and groceries for every household in America. That figure669does not even include programs that are not measured or fraud670that goes undetected. The GAO reported that taxpayers lose up671to $521 billion per year. At the upper end, that is almost two672months of housing payments for every household in America. It673is understandable that many hardworking Americans are674frustrated when they struggle to afford ordinary expenses, even675as the government fails to safeguard their taxes.676    Today, we are talking about the SNAP program, which has677exploded over the past 15 years. This growth cannot be678explained solely based on need. The poverty rate has declined679since 2008, and yet the percentage of people on SNAP benefits680has increased over 50 percent. With the explosion in spending681has come a five-fold increase in improper payments, a 10.9682percent improper payment rate last year, equal to $10.2683billion. The incentive problem is obvious. The states decide684what to spend, and the Federal taxpayer foots the bill. It does685not matter whether a state has a three percent improper payment686rate, like South Dakota, or 25 percent, like Alaska. The687Federal Government pays it all.688    H.R. 1 included a huge win for SNAP accountability by689requiring states to share in the costs if their improper690payments exceed six percent. This is a crucial step toward691protecting taxpayer dollars, and it should be extended to other692Federal programs.693    It is important to note that much of the outright fraud694that occurs, such as that that has been discussed by Inspector695Walk and Ms. Royal, often is not counted in the improper696payments because it happens after the benefits are delivered.697Legal abuse of programs, such as millionaires qualifying for698benefits because of eligibility loopholes, also is not included699in improper payments.700    The Trump Administration and this Congress have taken701unprecedented steps toward reducing waste, fraud, and abuse,702and many of those actions are in line with my four proposals to703establish radical transparency and meaningful accountability704for taxpayers' dollars.705    First, follow the money. The Federal Government should706account for the money it spends as carefully as it accounts for707the dollars it collects. We cannot reduce fraud if we cannot708follow the money.709    Second, close eligibility loopholes. Congress should end710legal abuse of Federal welfare programs by eliminating broad-711based categorical eligibility, which allows individuals to712automatically qualify for benefits based on something as713trivial as receiving a brochure. The Department of Agriculture714estimated that this loophole allowed 5.6 million individuals715who were not eligible under Federal standards to nonetheless716receive SNAP benefits. The No Welfare for the Wealthy Act of7172025 would reduce this abuse by requiring households to meet718Federal standards for SNAP benefits.719    Third, measure improper payments accurately and720consistently. Many programs are not measured at all, others are721measured inconsistently, and some recent administrations have722intentionally undercounted improper payments. Congress should723require all distributors of Federal benefits to comply with724Federal measurement standards and data requests. Failure to do725so should trigger cost-sharing or disqualification from726distributing benefits.727    And fourth is to expand skin-in-the-game accountability.728Without consequences, laws aimed at protecting taxpayers'729dollars will fail. Policymakers should expand H.R. 1 SNAP730provisions by imposing fix-it-or-fund-it-yourself requirements731across all Federal programs. Congress' constitutional authority732over the purse does not end when taxpayer dollars leave the733Treasury. Every Federal dollar that is spent should be subject734to the same scrutiny and accountability that is required of735taxpayers.736    Thank you.737    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, ma'am.738    Ms. Plata-Nino is recognized.739740      STATEMENT OF MS. GINA PLATA-NINO (MINORITY WITNESS)741742              DIRECTOR OF SNAP POLICY AND ADVOCACY743744                FOOD RESEARCH AND ACTION CENTER745746    Ms. Plata-Nino. Good morning, Chairman, Ranking Member, and747Members of the Committee. Thank you for the opportunity to748testify today.749    I am an attorney in good standing, and I have represented750clients who needed help accessing SNAP because the process was751too burdensome. I have seen firsthand the daily struggles752families face when food assistance is delayed, denied, or753difficult to obtain. I have also had the opportunity to serve754the Federal Government and saw the hard work state agencies do755to help programs operate more efficiently and effectively.756    I want to begin with a simple point. Program integrity and757food access are not competing goals. Congress can protect758taxpayers' dollars and protect families from hunger at the same759time. But to do that, we must be precise about the problem we760are trying to solve. SNAP is not an abstract line item. It is761grocery money that allows a grandmother to buy food after762paying for prescriptions. It is a support that helps a parent763stretch a low paycheck through the end of the month. It is the764difference between a child arriving at school ready to learn765and a child trying to focus on an empty stomach.766    In 2024, over 47 million people in the United States live767in food-insecure households, including over 14 million768children. Those numbers represent American families making769impossible choices every day. SNAP responds to that need. It770served over 41 million people in Fiscal Year 2024, and most771SNAP households include a child, an older adult, a person with772a disability. Many participants work in jobs that pay too773little or offer too few stable hours. Others turn to SNAP774during a layoff, a health crisis, a caregiving emergency, or a775temporary loss of income. SNAP helps people weather hardship,776and it helps them move forward.777    That is why accuracy matters. Every dollar should reach the778people who qualify for help. But we must not confuse payment779errors with fraud. Fraud involves intentional wrongdoing.780Payment errors often involve complicated rules, changing work781hours, missing paperwork, outdated systems, or agency mistakes.782Treating every hour as fraud misdiagnoses the problem. It also783drives policies that can punish eligible families instead of784fixing the administrative systems that need support.785    SNAP already has one of the most rigorous integrity systems786in the Federal Government. Applicants complete detailed787applications, participate in interviews, submit documentation,788and have their information checked against Federal and state789databases. States conduct ongoing reviews, and the SNAP quality790control system reexamines tens of thousands of cases each year.791When states identify errors, they must correct them and, where792required, submit corrective action plans.793    The greatest fraud threat facing SNAP households, as my794colleague said, today is organized benefit theft. Criminals795skim, clone, and phish EBT cards, then drain benefits from796households that have already proven their eligibility, costing797billions of dollars in taxpayers' money. Behind every claim is798a household that expected to buy groceries and instead found an799empty account. Congress should focus on the vulnerabilities800that actually harm families and taxpayers. That means801accelerating chip-enabled EBT cards.802    Congress should also protect the administrative capacity803that makes integrity possible. States reduce errors when they804can hire trained eligibility workers, modernize outdated805systems, answer phones, process documents on time, and conduct806meaningful quality reviews. Cutting administrative support, as807H.R. 1 has done, by shifting an additional 25 percent to states808while demanding greater accuracy runs counter to the goal of809accountability.810    Finally, Congress should evaluate SNAP performance with a811full set of measures, payment accuracy, benefit theft,812timeliness, access, churn, customer service, and participation813among eligible households. A state can lower an error rate by814making the program harder to access, but that does not mean it815has improved integrity. It may simply mean eligible people gave816up, missed an interview, could not reach a call center, or lost817food assistance because of paperwork.818    The right standard is clear. SNAP should be accurate,819secure, timely, and accessible. Families should not have to820prove their hunger repeatedly through unnecessary barriers.821States should not have to choose between service delivery and822fiscal survivors. Taxpayers should not expect oversight that823targets real risk, not policies that shift costs onto families824with the least ability to bear them.825    SNAP works when it reaches eligible people and protects826public resources. We can strengthen both. I urge you to invest827in secure payment technology, restore and preserve strong828Federal-state administrative support, measure what truly829matters, and keep the human impact at the center of every830integrity discussion that has cost over four million831individuals losing SNAP benefits since the passage of H.R. 1.832    Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.833    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, ma'am. And I will commend all you834all. You got it done in 5 minutes, which is kind of incredible.835So, you all get your rewards in heaven, all right? Because this836is a subcommittee. We do not even have food back here. Anyway,837thank you all. And I now recognize myself for 5 minutes of838questions.839    This is for all you all. According to nonpartisan anti-840fraud experts, improved data sharing is needed to better841identify and prevent fraud in Federal benefit programs,842especially those administered by the states. The 21 states843have, for the past year, refused to provide food stamp data844with the Department of Agriculture. The Agriculture Department845identified $3 billion in potential fraud just from the food846stamp data submitted by 29 states. That includes benefits going847to 186,000 deceased individuals and the 442,000 beneficiaries848with fake Social Security numbers.849    Based on these results, is it fair to assume the Trump850Administration could identify additional fraud if it had the851data from 21 noncompliant states? Ms. Plata-Nino, thank you,852ma'am.853    Ms. Plata-Nino. Plata-Nino.854    Mr. Burchett. Say it one more time for me.855    Ms. Plata-Nino. Plata-Nino.856    Mr. Burchett. They have told me this back here, and I am857just terrible. I apologize.858    Ms. Plata-Nino. That is okay.859    Mr. Burchett. I am going to get it.860    Ms. Plata-Nino. That is all right.861    Thank you for the question. The Privacy Act of 1974 and the862Paperwork Reduction of 1980 creates a balance between Congress863and the Executive branch to make sure that we protect the864privacy of Americans. The data that USDA handles and the states865handle has the high rigorous quality control measures that are866important to protect the safety of American families.867    The data request that is being asked goes above and beyond868that. It asks for five years of Americans' families' data,869including Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act870(HIPAA)-protected information, whether or not they were871eligible, whether or not they applied. So, think about the 15-872year-old child and single mother who applied during the873pandemic, and right after, they found a job. Now, that 15-year-874old child with many medical needs, that information will go875over to an entity that we do not know what sort of protections876and privacy will go forward.877    The quality control program, as USDA has stated, has878rigorous control measures, and the data that is currently being879sent by those states is randomized and anonymized to protect880privacy of American individuals.881    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, ma'am.882    Ms. Greszler?883    Ms. Greszler. Yes, it is absolutely fair to assume that you884could catch significantly more fraud if you take 50 different885siloed databases and compile them together. And just one886example of that is that the same Social Security number could887be used to claim food stamps in 50 states plus the District of888Columbia. And none of those states will know that because they889do not have access to the other one.890    Mr. Burchett. There is no cohesive force between the two.891There is no--as we found with the IRS and a lot of our892agencies, the computers just do not hook up. Is that what you893are telling me?894    Ms. Greszler. Yes, they are not looking across them. And895essentially, the Federal Government is granting a blank check896to the states to apply these programs, and yet they are not897returning the data for the recent requests to be able to ensure898the integrity of those dollars.899    Mr. Burchett. Right. Thank you. Ms. Royal?900    Ms. Royal. Ms. Greszler did an excellent job of answering901that question. Of course, more data is going to be able for us902to identify more fraud. The trouble right now, states do not903have access to information if a recipient or applicant is904already receiving benefits in another state. There is a905question on the application that requires the applicant to906provide that information. You know, have you received benefits907in another state? If so which one? If they mark ``no'' to that,908then as an investigator, there is no way for me to contact909another state to verify that. So having access to the data,910making sure that benefits are not already being issued by911another state and preventing dual issuance would be a912significant savings to the taxpayer.913    Mr. Burchett. Inspector General?914    Mr. Walk. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I can just give a couple915of examples. So, with OIG--and I will just speak from OIG's916perspective. I know USDA is doing a separate data request. But917about a year ago under my predecessor, OIG requested data from918the top ten SNAP states in terms of spending in order to review919integrity and quality of state data. We have released one920report very recently from Ohio and found $13.3 million in921anomalies that would not have otherwise been found because we922were able to work with the state. The state, before that report923even became public, started working on those anomalies to be924able to figure out what was actually going on.925    Puerto Rico, although not one of the state agencies that we926were looking at, their comptroller general looked at their own927data and came up with--found $150 million of SNAP benefits that928went to dead people, 38,000 dead people that received that929nutrition dollars. And almost immediately, we went down to930Puerto Rico and met with the comptroller general and with their931Inspector General (IG) to talk through how we can help from a932Federal perspective to exercise Federal oversight.933    Because the states have this participant data, if we do not934have it, we cannot even find the vulnerabilities, much less935start to collaborate about how we can go about changing it. And936today, we have six of those ten states that have provided the937data. Four have continued to object after a year. And I938recently ordered subpoenas for that data, and we are still939waiting on it.940    Mr. Burchett. Okay. Thank you. I have run over a little941bit. As Chairman, I am allowed to do that apparently, but I942hate it when they do that. So, I am going to recognize my943Ranking--no, you want me to go to the next Democrat? Okay.944    Yes, go ahead, brother. You are recognized.945    Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.946    Mr. Walk, were you involved in the development of Project9472025? Did you have any involvement in it?948    Mr. Walk. I was----949    Mr. Walkinshaw. It is a yes or no.950    Mr. Walk. Yes, I was a volunteer.951    Mr. Walkinshaw. Limited involvement maybe?952    Mr. Walk. I was a volunteer, sir.953    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. Before you were nominated as IG, you954were a political appointee, USDA?955    Mr. Walk. I was actually the judicial officer at USDA since956December 2020.957    Mr. Walkinshaw. Were you a political appointee at any point958in your career in the Trump Administration?959    Mr. Walk. Sure, I was a----960    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.961    Mr. Walk [continuing]. Political appointee after about--962after nearly ten years as a career employee at DHS.963    Mr. Walkinshaw. Before your nomination as IG, did you have964any experience specifically in auditing? Did you ever serve as965an auditor?966    Mr. Walk. When I was at the Homeland Security Department,967one of my first assignments as an attorney was to provide968advice to----969    Mr. Walkinshaw. You provided legal advice----970    Mr. Walk. About----971    Mr. Walkinshaw [continuing]. To auditors?972    Mr. Walk. About our inspector general audits.973    Mr. Walkinshaw. So, you never conducted any audits?974    Mr. Walk. No.975    Mr. Walkinshaw. Did you ever work in an IG's office as a976deputy staff member, ever work in any IG office at any level977before your nomination?978    Mr. Walk. No, I did not work at an IG's office.979    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay. During your tenure as IG at USDA,980have you recused yourself from any matters involving decisions981you made during your tenure previously as an advisor at the982agency?983    Mr. Walk. I have not.984    Mr. Walkinshaw. You have not found the need to, or you have985made a decision that you are not going to recuse, you do not986think you need to recuse?987    Mr. Walk. As----988    Mr. Walkinshaw. If you were involved in anything or just--989--990    Mr. Walk. Sure, I have spoken with counsel and--as well as991the career ethics official at USDA, and there have been no992issues raised that has required my recusal based on their993counsel.994    Mr. Walkinshaw. Interesting, okay. Your predecessor, IG995Fong, had 22 years of experience before she became IG. She had996IG experience before that. Bipartisan credibility, Mr.997Chairman, you can go back and watch the videos in this998Committee. I stood in this room and watched Democrats and999Republicans praise her work. She was fired by President Trump1000because he does not want independent IGs with experience. He1001wants you, no IG experience, no audit experience, a political1002actor and a political appointee. SNAP fraud is a real issue,1003and that is why we need qualified, independent, nonpartisan,1004nonpolitical IGs. The Trump Administration has systematically1005fired them.1006    But let us talk about some waste, fraud and abuse. I went1007down to the Reflecting Pool yesterday, to check out the1008President's new project. This guy here--and I do not like to1009judge a book by its cover; appearances can be deceiving--but1010sometimes if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and1011dresses like a duck, it is a crook. This is John Cafaro. He is1012a crook. He pled guilty to bribery and campaign finance1013violations, longtime Republican donor, got a $1.7 million no-1014bid contract to filter the water at the Reflecting Pool.1015    I went down to check it out yesterday. Somewhat1016ironically--I did not believe this when I was told it--his1017company's name is Greenwater Services. The President promised1018us beautiful blue water, gave a contract to this crook who gave1019us green water, algae, and dying ducks.1020    Mr. Chairman, at some point this Committee will have to1021address the waste, fraud, the abuse that is taking place in1022this Administration. The wolves are in the house. They are in1023the White House. The waste, the fraud, and abuse is happening1024under our own eyes, and this DOGE Committee, committed to1025government efficiency, hears no evil and sees no evil because1026this is the President's buddy from Mar-a-Lago, said he is a1027great guy.1028    The President and this Congress, this Republican Congress,1029have literally taken food from the mouths of hungry children,1030and they are putting it in the pockets of crooks like this. If1031that is not fraudulent, Mr. Chairman, I do not know what is.1032    I yield back.1033    Mr. Burchett. Thank you.1034    I now yield to 5 minutes to Mr. Cloud.1035    Mr. Cloud. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I appreciate you1036holding this hearing. Us getting rid of the waste, fraud, and1037abuse in our government is extremely important. Ms. Greszler, I1038think you mentioned $184 billion in fraud in just a year. I am1039on the Appropriations Committee and only two of our1040appropriations bills that fund the government are over that1041amount, so that is significant with what we could be doing or1042returning to the American people if we could rein in the waste,1043fraud, and abuse.1044    I am also constantly amazed by how much we try to measure1045compassion by how many dollars go out the door, how many people1046are on the rolls without looking to whether it is going to1047accomplish those needs. I appreciate, Mr. Walk, what you had1048pointed out, that some of these dollars are actually being used1049fraudulently by gangs to buy drugs and guns and nefarious1050activities, not to mention some going overseas to bad actors1051and all those different kind of things. It is important that we1052make sure that it is going to do exactly what it was supposed1053to do.1054    I note that SNAP has almost doubled in the last five years.1055Meanwhile, the poverty rate in our country is roughly where it1056was about five years ago within a percentage. And so, it seems1057like maybe there is some overhead. Recently, just in the data1058shared, as the Chairman had mentioned, $3 billion a year in1059potential waste, fraud, and abuse just among the states that1060have shared information, 186 deceased individuals who are on1061the rolls. Now, if we take those off the rolls and the numbers1062of SNAP beneficiaries went down, what you would hear is, oh,1063children are not being fed, from the left, but actually, we are1064just trying to make sure that we are not sending money to1065people who are not alive anymore.1066    There are 356- to 500,000 duplicate enrollees, so some of1067these are people who are enrolled in multiple states. I think,1068Ms. Greszler, you had talked about that, some up to six states1069that we know of. And this is of the states sharing information.1070I would think that those states not sharing information, that1071potentially the problem is worse, and maybe that is not why1072they are sharing information. Who knows?1073    You know, Ms. Royal, you talked about the checkbox that,1074you know, all you have to do is say, you know, are you not1075receiving--us hoping that those committing fraud would be1076honest on their application, right? This is the big check we1077have.1078    Ms. Greszler, I was wondering if you could speak to, and1079maybe we will go down the line, you mentioned some of them, but1080some of the protections that we could put in place to make sure1081that the SNAP benefits are going to those who are truly in need1082and that we are making sure that the Federal taxpayers--I was1083really struck by your thought of what we require the1084information of those paying taxes into this. Those who are1085basically footing the bill for SNAP, we require to know every1086dollar that they are making. But those who are receiving the1087benefits, it does not seem like we have that same sort of----1088    Ms. Greszler. Yes, thank you.1089    Mr. Cloud. Okay.1090    Ms. Greszler. And I want to go over two things, and the1091first is looking at and addressing the benefits that the1092government delivers the same as the taxes it collects. And so,1093what we need to do is establish some new 1099 reporting forms.1094You know, if you receive a Social Security benefit, you file1095that with your taxes each year. We should be able to have every1096benefit that goes out the door, a beginning-to-end accounting1097of that. And then you can have a situation where automatically1098this gets detected.1099    The Department of Justice announced a $6.5 billion fraud1100takedown yesterday, 455 dependents, healthcare programs. Some1101of those were stolen identities, and then the individuals had1102benefits claimed on the stolen identity's individual's behalf.1103Well, if you do not have that individual claiming on their form1104that they received that benefit, that is going to be an1105automatic trigger to look back to the next step, the next1106pathway in this, you know, beginning-to-end accounting to say,1107were you the point of fraud, or was it that next one? But you1108should be able to follow that end to end.1109    And the second is getting rid of these eligibility1110loopholes. If you look at the seven states that actually use1111the Federal standards instead of this categorical eligibility,1112they have 50 percent fewer people on SNAP, and they have the1113exact same poverty rate.1114    Mr. Cloud. It seems to me that states are actually1115incentivized to just get more people on the rolls, whether it1116is valid or not.1117    Ms. Greszler. It is money into the state, and they pay $01118of it.1119    Mr. Cloud. Yes, Ms. Royal, did you want to speak to that?1120    Ms. Royal. Having access to the National Accuracy1121Clearinghouse, which is a nationwide database that would1122provide information to states to prevent or identify dual1123enrollment, would be critical.1124    The next thing, ID verification to make sure that a person1125applying for the benefits is not deceased, is who they say they1126are, and we can make sure, again, that the benefits are issued1127accurately.1128    Ending self-attestation. Someone can go in and submit an1129application and answer a question with a shoulder shrug and1130still receive benefits. So, verifying the information provided1131for eligibility would be significant.1132    Increasing the retention amount. So, when a state has1133determined that benefits have been issued to a household that1134they should not have received, when the state recovers that,1135they are able to retain a portion of that money. And increasing1136that percentage to incentivize states to actually identify and1137prosecute or prevent and detect fraud would be substantial.1138    And finally, requiring that retention money be used for the1139prevention, detection, and prosecution of fraud. Often, many1140states just roll that into their general fund, so investigators1141continue to be understaffed and under-sourced.1142    Mr. Cloud. Thank you. My time is up, Chairman. I yield1143back.1144    Mr. Burchett. Thank you.1145    Mr. Timmons, you are recognized.1146    Mr. Timmons. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank you1147for holding this hearing.1148    There is a huge opportunity to get government benefits to1149people that need them and deny government benefits to people1150that do not qualify for them, and it is an incredibly important1151issue. Hundreds of billions of dollars every decade are lost to1152waste, fraud, and abuse.1153    And we have actually been working on a bill that actually1154passed this Committee, passed this Committee unanimously. That1155does not happen often. But it is called the TAB Act, Timely and1156Accurate Benefits. And what it does is it uses technology to1157confirm that a person does not make enough money. And what you1158do is, you log into a website. You then go to your bank. You1159then go to your Cash App, your Zelle, your Venmo, and you would1160then get benefits immediately. And if you make too much money,1161you do not get benefits. And it is just using technology to1162make sure that we are being efficient with our resources.1163    Ms. Royal, are you familiar with this proposal?1164    Ms. Royal. I am not familiar with the proposal, but based1165on what you described, I am going to get familiar with it1166because it sounds wonderful.1167    Mr. Timmons. So, the Congressional Budget Office scored it1168as costing a half a million dollars over a ten year window,1169which I think is ridiculous. There was a pilot program where it1170was implemented in Missouri, and it saved 20 percent. It saved117120 percent. We spend $1.5 trillion on social safety nets.1172Twenty percent of that is a lot of money. And over a ten year1173budget window, it is $2-plus trillion. And again, that is not1174money that--it is money that we could put to better use because1175it is people that need it.1176    And so, I think that we need to get the TAB Act on the1177Floor, and we need to get it passed, because giving states the1178ability to get a better picture of an individual's earning1179capacity is step one. And this is actually really exciting1180because the first thing we do is we use technology to get a1181better understanding of whether people actually qualify for it.1182And the second part is more critically important, and that is1183we end the benefits cliff. So right now, you got people that1184are gaming the system, and it is--I would too. If I needed1185these benefits, I would game the system.1186    But if you make more than a certain amount of money, you1187lose all your benefits, and that is not helpful. You are not1188helping people get out of the situation they are in. So, if you1189stratify them to say, all right, you are going to get this,1190this amount for now. We could even give more at the beginning1191and create an incentive structure to get out of whatever1192situation they are in to end the benefits cliff. We cannot do1193that now because it is too complicated, but with technology, we1194could.1195    Ms. Plata-Nino, does that make sense to you to use1196technology to get people benefits faster and then create1197incentive structures to help them get back on their feet? Does1198that make sense?1199    Ms. Plata-Nino. I think that is what every person who is1200applying for SNAP benefits would like. No one wants to be in1201the program. If the economy and jobs was strong, individuals1202would not be in the program.1203    Mr. Timmons. And I think we agree that we have an1204obligation to help people that are down on their luck. I mean,1205that is what these social safety nets are for, but they are not1206designed for generational cyclical poverty. If a grandmother, a1207mother, and a daughter have all experienced the need for SNAP1208benefits, our social safety nets are not working, I mean,1209because that is not the desired outcome. It should be a1210transitory opportunity for them to get back on their feet.1211    Ms. Greszler, what are your--I mean, this makes sense. Is1212this not just a no-brainer? We have the ability to use this1213technology. It has been tested, and we could literally1214transform our social safety nets. Does that make sense?1215    Ms. Greszler. Absolutely. And we have seen yesterday with1216the Department of Justice's announcement of fraud that there1217are advanced techniques that are being used, and yet there are1218still many silos that are out there. And so, in the same way1219that we need the data to no longer be siloed so that you can1220also deliver benefits more quickly, we also need the welfare1221programs to not be siloed. So, the individuals--it has always1222got to be work-oriented welfare. And oftentimes, you do face1223these benefit cliffs, and you may not know that if I take this1224benefit, I am going to lose this benefit. And so, to have a1225coordinated system--Congress has allowed Utah to do it because1226they were grandfathered in but currently prevents the other1227states from adopting this like one-door model that actually1228helps individuals get into work instead of trapping them in a1229maze of welfare.1230    Mr. Timmons. And we have the ability to do all of this, and1231this Committee has seen it appropriate to pass a bill1232unanimously, and it is currently waiting a vote on the Floor.1233The TAB Act has the ability to transform our social safety nets1234and to save billions and billions and hundreds of billions of1235dollars. So, we are going to be pushing to get a vote on that1236on the Floor.1237    And again, using technology to get benefits quickly to1238people that deserve them and deny individuals that are trying1239to take advantage of the system, it is a no-brainer, and we1240have to do this. We are $40 trillion in debt. We are running1241out of opportunities to start saving money.1242    So, Mr. Chairman, I really appreciate you holding this1243hearing, and with that, I yield back. Thanks.1244    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Timmons.1245    Mr. Burlison, you are recognized for 5 minutes.1246    Mr. Burlison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1247    The American people expect their tax dollars to be spent1248wisely. They expect us to be stewards, wise stewards of the1249money that they work so hard to put food on the table and then1250send some to this government, and for us to be wasteful with1251those dollars is not acceptable.1252    But unfortunately, for many in the Federal Government, your1253hard-earned dollars are an afterthought. That is part of the1254reason why we see billions of dollars lost to waste, fraud, and1255abuse, and why we have a $39 trillion debt. It is clear that1256many programs are not working as intended, and the American1257people deserve better.1258    Over the past year, the Trump Administration has taken1259meaningful steps, and this body has taken meaningful steps to1260make sure that those dollars are going to be put in the hands1261of the people that truly need them.1262    And so, my first question is to you, Ms. Plata-Nino. In1263your testimony, you emphasized the importance of distinguishing1264between fraud and administrative errors, but the USDA Inspector1265General and multiple audits have documented that organized1266fraud rings are stealing hundreds of millions, sometimes1267billions of dollars. Do you believe those reports?1268    Ms. Plata-Nino. I believe he was talking about skimming1269where there is no way to measure that, especially after the1270government stopped doing reimbursement and instead stopped1271taking claims.1272    Mr. Burlison. So, you do not believe the information is1273accurate?1274    Ms. Plata-Nino. Not fully.1275    Mr. Burlison. Really? So, we have three panelists here that1276are all experts that have studied this. You are saying that1277they do not know what they are talking about?1278    Ms. Plata-Nino. There is underreported data in terms of how1279many millions of dollars, if not billions, have been stolen1280from vulnerable Americans in terms of skimming, but there is no1281data to really ascertain the full amount.1282    Mr. Burlison. Okay. I think we could kind of put blinders1283on. I mean, all of us could put blinders on and continue to1284mount up $39 trillion in debt, but I am not going to do that. I1285am going to focus on--let me ask you this question. Only 291286states have provided their data. Should all of the states at1287least provide data back to Congress about how that money is1288being spent?1289    Ms. Plata-Nino. The SNAP program does have a high-quality1290control program, and states have been historically providing1291the data in order to ascertain high-quality control measures.1292The data that is being asked is in violation of the Privacy Act1293and the Paper Reduction Act. The data is incredibly sensitive,1294and it is not necessarily----1295    Mr. Burlison. Apparently, most of the states are fine. Most1296of the states are being responsible. They are responding1297because they see the problem.1298    Ms. Plata-Nino, let me ask you this question. Is $391299trillion debt, is that acceptable to you?1300    Ms. Plata-Nino. It is unacceptable that we still have over130140----1302    Mr. Burlison. Do you know how much that is per taxpayer?1303    Ms. Plata-Nino. [continuing]. Million people in----1304    Mr. Burlison. Do you have any idea how much each taxpayer1305in America, if they had to pay right now, what that would be? I1306will tell you.1307    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am an expert on food insecurity, sir.1308    Mr. Burlison. It is $356,000. If you care about the1309national debt, if you care about the money that is coming out1310of this building, you should care about the fact that every1311hardworking American who is trying to put food on the table at1312the end of the day has to somehow pay $356,000 for all of the1313misuse of funds that this Congress and previous Congresses have1314made. I do not find it acceptable. And we are trying to do1315everything we can to unwind this clock and undo the damage that1316previous Congresses have done to not just the American people1317today but future generations. And to demonize that work, I1318think, is unacceptable.1319    Mr. Walk, thank you for your service as an Inspector1320General. Can you describe the scale of the threat, based on the1321investigations your office has conducted, on the sophisticated1322organized crime that is occurring that we are seeing with the1323SNAP program?1324    Mr. Walk. I think it is very large scale. We, in terms of1325skimming that requires some kind of sophistication, it requires1326organization, and so we are seeing a lot of what Baltic1327transnational criminal organizations involved in skimming. That1328money oftentimes goes overseas. We also know that in some--in1329many of our investigations, or--we have seen ties of1330individuals, subjects, that have had ties to known or suspected1331terrorists. So, it very much is a sophisticated----1332    Mr. Burlison. In which countries do you see that activity1333the most? From which countries? Are they organizing, scheming?1334    Mr. Walk. Well, we see a lot of skimming from Romania.1335    Mr. Burlison. From Romania. When you talk to the American1336people about this, how do you think they feel, to find out that1337their dollars are not even going to their neighbor in need,1338they are going to some fraud, organized crime syndicate out of1339Romania?1340    Mr. Walk. Well, I actually had a conversation with a victim1341just this week. I was in a store in New York, and this father1342of five told me he was skimmed more than once. The card was1343replaced, and he was skimmed again. He showed me on his device1344that--how the money got into his account. At about midnight,1345they were sitting on that account. They had already cloned the1346number, apparently, because they were able to skim all the1347money deposited by 7 a.m., seven hours.1348    Mr. Burlison. That is unacceptable.1349    Mr. Walk. Seven hours.1350    Mr. Burlison. Thank you for your work in trying to fix it.1351I yield back.1352    Mr. Burchett. Chairlady [sic] Stansbury, you are1353recognized, ma'am.1354    Ms. Stansbury. All right, well, I appreciate the1355conversation. I always find these conversations about public1356benefits interesting. Especially as somebody who grew up in a1357low-income family and a low-income community, I always find it1358fascinating to hear how people talk about low-income people.1359    But let me just start out with some facts. Can any of our1360panelists here answer the question, by dollar, what are the top1361three causes of improper payments, waste, fraud, and abuse in1362SNAP? Nobody wants to volunteer? Top three.1363    Ms. Greszler. Number one would be eligibility errors.1364    Ms. Stansbury. Wrong. It is improper payments. It is1365improper payments, it is intentional SNAP fraud, and the third1366is criminal organizations who are actually explicitly stealing1367people's SNAP benefits. That is what is the top three causes of1368SNAP fraud and the loss of Federal taxpayer dollars. It is1369actual criminal organizations. Does anyone on the panel know1370what the penalties are for committing SNAP fraud? Raise your1371hand. Anyone know? Yes, please, Ms. Royal?1372    Ms. Royal. There are different penalties. An individual who1373is found guilty of committing SNAP fraud is subject to criminal1374prosecution, incarceration, fines, and restitution.1375    Ms. Stansbury. Yes, so it is----1376    Ms. Royal. Somebody who is found guilty of an intentional1377program violation is subject to disqualification, either 121378months, 24 months, permanent, or a ten year, other special1379disqualification penalties.1380    Ms. Stansbury. Excellent, yes. And in fact, in some cases,1381with extreme fraud, can be up to $250,000 and 20 years in1382prison.1383    All right. Who can answer about what the average individual1384receives per month in SNAP benefits?1385    Ms. Plata-Nino?1386    Ms. Plata-Nino. For a household of two, it is less than1387$320 a month.1388    Ms. Stansbury. And about per person, what would you say?1389    Ms. Plata-Nino. It is about $200.1390    Ms. Stansbury. Yes, so it depends on the household and the1391beneficiaries, but when you average it out, according to the1392USDA, it comes out to between about $174 and $177 per person1393per month. And so, when you break that down, that is about $6 a1394day, right? Six dollars a day. Can anyone answer, who is the1395number one beneficiary of SNAP benefits?1396    Ms. Plata-Nino?1397    Ms. Plata-Nino. Retailers, because the money goes straight1398into the retailers' stores and then goes and offers up into the1399local economy, raising taxes and increasing wages.1400    Ms. Stansbury. But in terms of the actual beneficiaries, in1401terms of----1402    Ms. Plata-Nino. Children.1403    Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. The people who receive the SNAP1404benefits, but yes, the economic----1405    Ms. Plata-Nino. It is children followed----1406    Ms. Stansbury [continuing]. Downstream impacts----1407    Ms. Plata-Nino. Yes, it is children, followed by older1408adults and people with disabilities.1409    Ms. Stansbury. Exactly. Thirty-nine percent of SNAP1410beneficiaries are children under 18 years old, not fraudsters,1411children; ten percent, people living with disabilities; 201412percent, older adults over 60. The vast majority of SNAP1413recipients are not committing fraud. They are children, they1414are people living with disabilities, and they are seniors.1415    Now, I am going to save you because I know many people do1416not want to share this publicly, but I would ask if any of you1417have actually been on SNAP benefits. And I want to say1418publicly, there is no shame in being on SNAP benefits because1419it is a program that was created to help people who are1420struggling. It is to help grandparents who are taking care of1421children. It is to help take care of kids who are in the foster1422care system. It is there so that when a mom goes through a1423divorce and she loses her job and is having a hard time, she1424can take care of her kids. That is what the SNAP program exists1425for. It is a bridge. It does not even cover the cost.1426    I would like to know, can any single person on this panel1427feed your family for $174 a month? Anybody? Can anybody in this1428room feed your family for $174 a month? Anybody? Not a single1429hand in the room? Yes, okay. This is not a joke, my friend.1430    Let us get real here. There is actual waste, fraud, and1431abuse in this system. It is criminal activity. It is activity1432that is just like every single financial system out there.1433There are bad people who take advantage of financial systems.1434But the vast majority of beneficiaries of this program are1435seniors, children, and people living with disabilities. And1436when you make it harder for them to access benefits, then it1437means that they go hungry. They skip meals. They do not have1438access to food. They go to our food banks, who are already1439struggling because of the cuts that were put in this budget to1440cut other programs that put food to our food banks. And1441essentially, it leaves our people, our children, our seniors,1442our grandparents, without access to food.1443    And so, Mr. Chairman, I am happy to work with you on1444bipartisan efforts to deal with criminal activity involving1445waste, fraud, and abuse in SNAP, but I will not support cutting1446programs for people who need them. I yield back.1447    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, ma'am.1448    Next, we have Representative Fallon.1449    Mr. Fallon. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1450    Mr. Burchett. From Texas.1451    Mr. Fallon. So, unlike some of us--we are not in a1452classroom, so I am not going to ask anybody to raise your1453hands, okay? We will just have a civil conversation. Ms.--is it1454Plata-Nino? Am I saying it correctly? Okay. You have worked for1455how long in your current position?1456    Ms. Plata-Nino. Over a year.1457    Mr. Fallon. Okay. And did you have related jobs that were1458similar?1459    Ms. Plata-Nino. I served as an attorney for multiple years1460representing low-income individuals----1461    Mr. Fallon. Okay.1462    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. In various public benefit1463programs.1464    Mr. Fallon. Okay. Do you know what the amount the Federal1465Government spent in SNAP benefits in Fiscal Year 2019 was?1466    Ms. Plata-Nino. 2019? Not off the top of my head.1467    Mr. Fallon. And I am not going to try to play gotcha. It1468was $65 billion. And then in 2025, do you think it went up or1469down from that number?1470    Ms. Plata-Nino. It went up because of the pandemic and the1471job loss and the economy1472    Mr. Fallon. Yes, but the pandemic has long since been over,1473several years at this point. It was $102 billion, which is a1474massive increase of 68 percent. And yet the GDP per capita, if1475you adjust for inflation, is only 8.9 percent. So, that is1476quite a leap and quite a difference. And according to the GAO,1477at minimum, we are looking at $300 million in fraud, waste, and1478abuse. And, of course, I think we all could agree that the1479reality is far more. Would you agree that in a perfect world,1480there should not be any American that needs SNAP benefits?1481    Ms. Plata-Nino. Americans want to have jobs and employment,1482so if the economy is strong, absolutely.1483    Mr. Fallon. Yes, in a perfect world, there would literally1484be no one on SNAP. That is what we are all working toward.1485Ironically, you would be working toward finding another job.1486    Ms. Plata-Nino. Oh, absolutely.1487    Mr. Fallon. I agree, yes. That would be amazing. Do you1488think that able-bodied, able-minded, non-elderly adults should1489be eligible for SNAP benefits, philosophically?1490    Ms. Plata-Nino. Individuals who need SNAP and who need the1491resources should be eligible for SNAP.1492    Mr. Fallon. Do you think that if you are able-bodied, able-1493minded, you are non-elderly, you should receive SNAP benefits?1494    Ms. Plata-Nino. It is a matter of having job sufficiency1495and available jobs, and----1496    Mr. Fallon. So, you think, yes, that seems to me that is1497your answer.1498    Ms. Plata-Nino. Americans who are----1499    Mr. Fallon. That an able-bodied, able-minded person should1500be eligible for SNAP benefits. I philosophically disagree. I1501think it is shocking that 21 percent of the people on SNAP are1502non-elderly, able-bodied, able-minded. It costs the American1503taxpayers $18 billion, and there are 8.8 million of those1504folks. Does that sound like a large number?1505    Ms. Plata-Nino. I think it is an incorrect number since1506many individuals do have disabilities who have been1507undiagnosed----1508    Mr. Fallon. Well, this is----1509    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. Because of healthcare costs--1510--1511    Mr. Fallon [continuing]. Able-bodied, able-minded, but----1512    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. Cannot be able to prove those1513disabilities.1514    Mr. Fallon. You know, I have been in Congress six years1515now, and when people come into our office, and there is a1516various array of fields that they work in, that every single1517one of them has something in common. They are desperate for1518labor. The unemployment rate is very low, and yet, there are1519still folks that claim that they are able-bodied, able-minded,1520and they just cannot find jobs. They can if their belly was--if1521they were truly--that is a motivator, is someone that, when you1522are hungry, you will go out and find a job and not just have to1523rely on someone else to do it, again, when you are able-bodied,1524able-minded.1525    Secretary Rollins directed all SNAP state agencies to share1526their participant eligibility data with USDA's Food and1527Nutrition Association. Were you aware of that, that she1528directed them to do that, the states?1529    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am aware that the labor market has been1530very weakened for blue-collar workers and that----1531    Mr. Fallon. That is not what I asked you. What I asked1532about was Secretary Rollins directed the state SNAP agencies to1533share their participant eligibility data. Were you aware that1534she asked them that, the states?1535    Ms. Plata-Nino. Are you talking about the data request?1536    Mr. Fallon. Let us try it again. Secretary Rollins asked1537the states, the 50 states and D.C., to share their participant1538eligibility data with the USDA. Were you aware of it or not? If1539you were not, we can talk about it, and I can tell you what1540happened.1541    Ms. Plata-Nino. If it is a data request, yes.1542    Mr. Fallon. Okay. Yes. And did you know that 22 states did1543not share that data?1544    Ms. Plata-Nino. Yes.1545    Mr. Fallon. Do you know what they all have in common?1546    Ms. Plata-Nino. That they do not care about protecting1547Americans' privacy?1548    Mr. Fallon. Every single one of them has a Democratic1549Governor, all of them. So, it is Arizona all the way through1550Washington State and D.C. I find it ironic when I was doing a1551little research for this that when you take the states that are1552run by Democrats and you take the states that are run by1553Republicans, particularly the larger ones, you are 30 percent1554more likely to be on SNAP if you live in a blue state. You1555think it is just because they are just terribly mismanaged or1556maybe they are abusing the system?1557    Ms. Stansbury. [Off mic.]1558    Mr. Fallon. Ah, it is my time. This is not a classroom.1559    Ms. Plata-Nino. They are ensuring that individuals who need1560access to benefits to be able to meet their basic needs have1561those resources.1562    Mr. Fallon. Well, let us hope that we can get in a perfect1563world and SNAP benefits go away completely.1564    Mr. Chair, I yield back.1565    Mr. Burchett. Thank you.1566    Mr. Gill, you are recognized.1567    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chair, for holding this hearing1568and for your intense and steadfast work on combating waste,1569fraud, and abuse. We certainly appreciate it. I know taxpayers1570appreciate it. And thank you to the witnesses for taking the1571time to be here.1572    Ms. Plata-Nino, did I pronounce that correctly?1573    Ms. Plata-Nino. Plata-Nino.1574    Mr. Gill. Plata-Nino? Okay. Plata-Nino. I got a couple of1575questions for you. Should SNAP dollars be spent on sodas?1576    Ms. Plata-Nino. The purpose of the SNAP program is to1577provide families to have food and beverages.1578    Mr. Gill. Should it be spent on sugary sodas?1579    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am happy to talk about hunger and1580nutrition but not dictate what Americans should or should not1581eat or may have access to.1582    Mr. Gill. I am asking if tax dollars should be used to pay1583for sodas.1584    Ms. Plata-Nino. Taxpayers' money should be utilized to1585ensure that individuals have access to the food that they need1586to survive or may be accessible to them.1587    Mr. Gill. Do they need sugary sodas to survive?1588    Ms. Plata-Nino. Some of them do, who do have low blood1589issues, who may have----1590    Mr. Gill. Is that right?1591    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. Or who have kidney issues,1592yes.1593    Mr. Gill. You think they need Coca-Cola to survive? You1594think that is the most appropriate use of our tax dollars?1595    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am not a physician, but medical records1596and expertise do show that----1597    Mr. Gill. You were just citing----1598    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. In some circumstances, they1599do.1600    Mr. Gill [continuing]. The health needs, apparently, of the1601American people. So, do the American people need Coca-Cola to1602survive?1603    Ms. Plata-Nino. I did not say that. I said that1604individuals----1605    Mr. Gill. I am asking you.1606    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. Need to have beverages.1607    Mr. Gill. I am giving you the opportunity to say yes or no.1608    Ms. Plata-Nino. I will not answer for individuals and their1609choices.1610    Mr. Gill. You think that there are some Americans who need1611Coca-Cola to survive? Is that your testimony?1612    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am happy to talk about the food and1613nutrition needs----1614    Mr. Gill. You just do not know?1615    Ms. Plata-Nino [continuing]. That individuals have.1616    Mr. Gill. You just do not know? I think most people can1617rationally say that you do not need Coca-Cola to survive.1618Wouldn't you agree?1619    Ms. Plata-Nino. I agree that we have a hunger crisis and1620that we need to address it by ensuring that individuals have1621the food resources that they need.1622    Mr. Gill. Got it. And one of those is sugary Coca-Cola.1623What does SNAP stand for?1624    Ms. Plata-Nino. It is the Supplemental Nutrition Assistance1625Program.1626    Mr. Gill. What is nutritional about Coca-Cola?1627    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am not a nutritionist. I am a food1628security expert in ensuring that individuals have the food1629resources that they need.1630    Mr. Gill. This is a commonsense question. All of these have1631been commonsense questions. I am just asking you, is there1632nutritional value to sugary sodas?1633    Ms. Plata-Nino. There are--I----1634    Mr. Gill. It is a yes or no question.1635    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am not an expert. I would have to look at1636the dietary guidelines and look at----1637    Mr. Gill. You are not an expert. I do not think that there1638is nutritional value to sugary sodas. I think most people in1639this room would agree with that assessment, but you have no1640opinion?1641    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am here to talk about the food needs and1642the hunger crisis that individuals here in America are facing.1643    Mr. Gill. Are you that ideologically dug in that you want1644our tax dollars paying for sugary sodas that you will not, in a1645straightforward way, admit that sugary sodas are not healthful1646for the American people?1647    Ms. Plata-Nino. I think that focusing on soda when people1648are going hungry is----1649    Mr. Gill. A lot of our tax dollars are spent on soda. That1650is why I am asking about it.1651    Ms. Plata-Nino. We have no----1652    Mr. Gill. And you appear to be so ideologically dug in that1653you will not answer a simple question that that is not an1654appropriate use of our tax dollars and that that does not, in1655fact, make the American people healthier.1656    Ms. Plata-Nino. I will not answer because there is no data1657sort of proving that.1658    Mr. Gill. Do you need data to determine whether drinking1659soda is healthy?1660    Ms. Plata-Nino. I think facts----1661    Mr. Gill. I am sorry, it is a serious question. Do you1662believe that perhaps drinking sodas every day is healthy?1663    Ms. Plata-Nino. The worst health outcome is hunger. When1664the individuals do not have the resources----1665    Mr. Gill. Do you satiate hunger with Coca-Cola?1666    Ms. Plata-Nino. I did not say that.1667    Mr. Gill. But you said that the worst health outcome is1668hunger, and I am asking you about sugary sodas.1669    Ms. Plata-Nino. And I am focusing on the nutrition needs1670and making sure that children have the resources----1671    Mr. Gill. Is your organization funded by soft drink makers?1672    Ms. Plata-Nino. I am not in charge of development, but no.1673    Mr. Gill. It is not, okay. Is your organization funded by1674organizations that make money from food stamps? Do1675organizations who profit off of food stamps fund your1676organization or businesses?1677    Ms. Plata-Nino. I mean, in the--I cannot comment to that,1678happy to talk about the resources that need----1679    Mr. Gill. Does General Mills fund your organization?1680    Ms. Plata-Nino. I do not have access to that information.1681    Mr. Gill. I do. It is right here. They do fund your1682organization. Do they profit off of food stamps?1683    Ms. Plata-Nino. Retailers are the major beneficiaries of--1684--1685    Mr. Gill. Do you think that that is a conflict of interest?1686    Ms. Plata-Nino. That is where EBT dollars are utilized.1687    Mr. Gill. Yes, and they are profiting off of your advocacy.1688Do you think that that is a conflict of interest?1689    Ms. Stansbury. [Off mic.]1690    Mr. Gill. I think most people think that is a conflict of1691interest. I know you do not want to answer.1692    My time is up. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1693    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Gill.1694    Mr. Jack, you are recognized for 5 minutes.1695    Mr. Jack. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you very much as1696well for convening this hearing.1697    I want to start my line of questioning with Mr. Walk. Thank1698you for your testimony. And I know that my colleague, Mr.1699Fallon, covered this briefly, but I understand that by the1700direction of our Secretary of Agriculture, Brooke Rollins, the1701USDA requested SNAP participant eligibility data from all 501702states to ensure the benefits are being dispersed properly, but1703only 29 states have released that data. And I was hoping you1704could illuminate for this Committee why you believe the 211705states who have not yet released that data have not done so.1706    Mr. Walk. Well, I can--I cannot speak to the USDA's1707request. I can speak to my own OIG's request for state SNAP1708data. So, about a year ago, we asked for the top ten states, in1709terms of SNAP spending, for their participant data because we1710wanted to do an evaluation of the integrity and quality of that1711data, especially as it touched on qualification, your1712eligibility to be on SNAP. And we received six states--the data1713from those six states. And I would just say that we finished a1714report of Ohio. And I think--I know I spoke a little bit to1715this earlier, but we found $13.3 million in anomalies just from1716that one state who shared their data with us.1717    Before that report became public, they had already started1718working on those vulnerabilities. But three--four states,1719California, New York, Illinois, and Michigan, have yet to give1720us that data so that we could do the same thing and look at the1721issues in their states. We have been--we find things such as1722applications that miss key data, like Social Security numbers,1723blanks in terms of citizenship, duplicate enrollments, like1724people who are clearly not living in that state but being paid1725out funding from that state. So, with these four states,1726California, New York, Illinois, and Michigan, if they do not1727provide the data, we cannot even start to look at that.1728    Now, you did mention USDA. They--we--I know that they have1729requested from all 50 states. And the request is a little bit1730different, so I cannot get too much into that. And they are a1731separate organization, but I know that from our separate1732requests where I have ordered a subpoena, which is very unusual1733that a state agency will require the IG to issue a subpoena for1734that kind of information, but we have issued four subpoenas to1735those states, and we are still waiting on that information.1736    Mr. Jack. Well, we will look forward to seeing their1737results once returned and complied with.1738    Ms. Royal, next question to you. I want to commend your1739organization for publishing this report, ``Why Food Stamp1740Program Integrity Is More Important Now Than Ever.'' And1741specifically, I just want to note from the report, in 20231742alone, food stamp enrollees in one state own more than 14,0001743luxury vehicles. And among those, you had three Ferraris, 111744Lamborghinis, 59 Maseratis, and thousands of other luxury1745vehicles.1746    The supposed goal of the SNAP program, of course, has been1747litigated today, but what was revealed in this report seems to1748be the program's reality. Help this Committee and the1749constituents back home understand, how does a program dedicated1750to feeding low-income families end up subsidizing Lamborghinis1751and Bentleys?1752    Ms. Royal. People make false statements on applications.1753And there is very little access to technology for states to1754verify that information before benefits are issued. So, it is1755the pay-and-chase model where even though a benefits worker may1756think that information is suspicious or suspect, they still1757have to issue those benefits, get it to a fraud investigator.1758The fraud investigator puts it on the stack of an already1759overwhelming caseload and then has to go back and verify the1760facts. It is not having access to technology and trying to1761fight these increased fraud numbers with a minimum amount of1762investigators is a Herculean task that we cannot accomplish.1763    Mr. Jack. Thank you very much. In my closing 30 seconds,1764Ms. Greszler, good to see you again. Thank you for testifying1765again before this Committee. I would love for you to close out1766by just illuminating how helpful the One Big Beautiful Bill1767Act, Working Families Tax Cut, was in ensuring that we are1768rooting out waste, fraud, and abuse.1769    Ms. Greszler. Yes, it was a great first step toward that1770and primarily in the SNAP program because if you do not have1771accountability at the end of the day, there is zero incentive1772for any state or any agency that is delivering these Federal1773benefits to be able to reduce those. And we cannot accept, as a1774cost of business, having up to $500 billion per year in fraud1775just so that we can make it easier so that those who are1776actually eligible for these programs will receive them. You1777have to go after that. There is no private sector business that1778could stay in business if it accepted the level of fraud,1779waste, and abuse that is going on now.1780    Mr. Jack. Very well said.1781    Mr. Chairman, my time is up. Before I yield back, if I1782could enter into the record ``Why Food Stamp Program Integrity1783Is More Important Now Than Ever,'' this report, at your will,1784sir.1785    Mr. Burchett. Accept.1786    Ms. Stansbury. Mr. Chairman, I also have a UC.1787    Mr. Burchett. Ma'am?1788    Ms. Stansbury. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the1789record 12 letters issued by House Oversight and Government1790Reform, Democrats on the importance of data security and1791privacy in government programs, which we have sent to the1792Administration, which they have failed to respond to. Thank1793you.1794    Mr. Burchett. Without objection.1795    Representative Luna, you are recognized. Ma'am?1796    Mrs. Luna. Thank you, Chairman.1797    Honorable Walk, in Operation Cold SNAP, 20 Minnesota retail1798locations were hit in a single operation for SNAP trafficking.1799Minnesota is also the epicenter of the largest documented1800social service fraud scandal in American history where over 981801individuals charged, 85 being of Somali descent, nearly $3001802million stolen from the USDA's Federal Child Nutrition Program.1803Did Minnesota's sanctuary status contribute to allowing that1804network to operate for years?1805    Mr. Walk. Congresswoman, I am not sure if that did, but I1806do know that in terms of Operation Cold SNAP and Feeding Our1807Futures, that there was a big nexus to the Somali community.1808But I--we have not looked at the issue of how the sanctuary1809jurisdictions affected that.1810    Mrs. Luna. I understand this to be correct not just in1811Minnesota, though. In most states that actually have illegal1812immigration problems and provide sanctuary status to these1813people, where they are limiting cooperation with Federal1814immigration enforcement, do you find it to be the case that1815similar cases also exist in regards to SNAP fraud?1816    Mr. Walk. Well, I think that we do--we need to be able to1817cooperate across jurisdictional lines when it comes to law1818enforcement, so if we are not getting cooperation from the1819state agencies and the proper degree of information sharing, it1820is very difficult to go after the fraud, particularly in terms1821of illegal alien communities because what we found is that1822often does involve false identities, false document rings. And1823that the resources that are needed to get at that is not just1824going to be within USDA. We do need cooperation from state and1825locals and other Federal agencies to get at that.1826    Mrs. Luna. Ms. Plata, do you think that if the Federal1827Government gives a set budget for people to be able to access1828these programs and then you have others being able to access1829them as well that have not paid into the system, in your1830opinion, would that limit the nutrition access for Americans?1831    Ms. Plata-Nino. SNAP has the high-quality control measures1832to ensure that only eligible individuals are accessing the1833program.1834    Mrs. Luna. So, you do not think that fraud is occurring?1835    Ms. Plata-Nino. Absolutely. We have billions of dollars1836that are being skimmed and scammed by families.1837    Mrs. Luna. Okay. My next question would be for Ms.1838Greszler. SNAP recipients have significantly higher rates of1839obesity, specifically type 2 diabetes and hypertension versus1840the general population. USDA's own data shows approximately $71841billion a year in SNAP funds spent on soda alone. Is it1842accurate to say that the Federal Government is currently1843running a program that simultaneously funds poor nutritional1844choices through SNAP and then funds the resulting chronic1845illness through Medicaid, effectively subsidizing the same1846disease twice?1847    Ms. Greszler. I think it is fair to say that there is a1848link there, and that might mean that Congress should consider1849revising those standards of what qualifies as food under the1850SNAP program.1851    Mrs. Luna. Okay. Have any of you--just yes or no, quickly,1852Honorable Walk, have you ever been on SNAP or EBT?1853    Mr. Walk. No, ma'am.1854    Mrs. Luna. Okay. Ms. Royal?1855    Ms. Royal. No, ma'am.1856    Ms. Greszler. Not to my knowledge, but my identity could1857have been stolen to be used elsewhere.1858    Ms. Plata-Nino. No, ma'am.1859    Mrs. Luna. Okay. The reason I ask you guys is because what1860I am finding is some of the poorest of the poor communities,1861specifically minority communities as well, and then obviously1862impoverished White Americans are given access to this program,1863but because of the amount of special interest money going into1864what they can and cannot buy, they are actually being made1865sick.1866    Just being very direct, it is basically a government-funded1867pipeline to chronic illness and it did not happen by accident.1868The SNAP eligible food list is not written by nutritionists. In1869fact, it is written by lobbyists. And every time a state will1870specifically try to restrict SNAP purchases, whether it be New1871York, Maine, or even Florida, the American Beverage Association1872and the processed food industry killed a waiver at the USDA,1873not because nutritional restrictions were bad policy, but1874because Coca-Cola and Pepsi-Cola have spent tens of millions of1875dollars protecting a $7 billion in annual government-guaranteed1876soda revenue. I am just curious, do you really think that this1877program currently, as written, if special interest is1878controlling it, is really benefiting children? Honorable Walk,1879yes or no?1880    Mr. Walk. I cannot give a policy opinion, but I do1881certainly understand that there are questions about how1882nutritious some of it is.1883    Mrs. Luna. Do you think special interest money should be1884deciding that, yes or no?1885    Mr. Walk. No.1886    Mrs. Luna. Okay. Ms. Royal, yes or no, do you think special1887interest money should be deciding?1888    Ms. Royal. No.1889    Ms. Greszler. No.1890    Ms. Plata-Nino. There is multiple research that SNAP1891supports the healthy----1892    Mrs. Luna. Okay. I will be honest with you. I do not think1893that special interest money at all should be going to funding1894this, especially when you have Democrats, to include, you know,1895a young Democrat from the State of Washington, which is where I1896used to be stationed, that found it very problematic that you1897could essentially open up a bag of chips but not serve in a1898daycare a banana because it did not meet compliance standards1899because there were not enough sinks.1900    So, all that to say, I appreciate you guys being here, but1901we clearly need to fix our SNAP program. Thank you.1902    Ms. Stansbury. Mr. Chairman, I have another UC.1903    Mr. Burchett. You have another what?1904    Ms. Stansbury. Unanimous consent.1905    Mr. Burchett. Oh, yes, ma'am.1906    Ms. Stansbury. Yes.1907    Mr. Burchett. Go ahead.1908    Ms. Stansbury. I would like to ask for unanimous consent to1909enter into the record a report from this Committee's House1910Democrats entitled ``Abandoning Americans to Disease: The Trump1911Administration's Reckless Crusade is Harming America's1912Health,'' which is about an investigation into the policies1913that this Administration is forwarding, including some of the1914food standards at the Federal Food and Drug Administration.1915    Mr. Burchett. No objection.1916    And I want to enter, with no objection, a letter that I1917wrote to Governor Gavin Newsom of California for the record.1918    And I want to thank you all so much for being here, for our1919Committee. We are getting out in record time. Everybody got1920their questions in, so we are good.1921    With that, and without objection, all Members have five1922legislative days within which to submit materials and1923additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be1924forwarded to the witnesses.1925    If there is no further business, without objection, the1926Subcommittee stands adjourned.1927    [Whereupon, at 11:32 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]19281929                                 [all]