Bounce Houses, Drones, and Massage Chairs: A Review of VA’s Purchase History in the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                       BOUNCE HOUSES, DRONES, AND5                    MASSAGE CHAIRS: A REVIEW OF VA'S6                    PURCHASE HISTORY IN THE VETERAN7                    READINESS AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM89=======================================================================1011                                HEARING1213                               before the1415                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY1617                                 of the1819                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS2021                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2223                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2425                             SECOND SESSION2627                               __________2829                        THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 20263031                               __________3233                           Serial No. 119-553435                               __________3637       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs3839                  [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]4041                    Available via http://govinfo.gov4243                               ______4445                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE464763-817                    WASHINGTON : 20264849                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS5051                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman5253AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking54    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member55JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California56NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire57MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,58GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina        Florida59DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky60MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois61JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois62KEITH SELF, Texas                    TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York63JEN KIGGANS, Virginia                MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon64ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey65KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota66    Mariana Islands67TOM BARRETT, Michigan6869                       Jon Clark, Staff Director70                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director7172                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY7374                 DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman7576JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire,77ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                     Ranking Member78KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky79    Mariana Islands                  DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois80TOM BARRETT, Michigan                TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York8182Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public83hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also84published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the85official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare86both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process87of converting between various electronic formats may introduce88unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the89current publication process and should diminish as the process is90further refined.9192                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S9394                              ----------9596                        THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 20269798                                                                   Page99100                           OPENING STATEMENTS101102The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1103The Honorable Chris Pappas, Ranking Member.......................     2104105                               WITNESSES106107                                Panel I108109Ms. Margarita Devlin, Principal Deputy Undersecretary for110  Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of111  Veterans Affairs...............................................     4112113        Accompanied by:114115    Ms. Chantile Stovall, Acting Executive Director, Veterans116        Readiness and Employment Service, Veterans Benefits117        Administration, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs118119Ms. Julie Howell, Associate Legislative Director, Paralyzed120  Veterans of America............................................     5121122                                APPENDIX123124                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses125126Ms. Margarita Devlin Prepared Statement..........................    19127Ms. Julie Howell Prepared Statement..............................    20128129                       Statements For The Record130131Veterans Education Success Prepared Statement....................    25132The Honorable Abe Hamadeh, U.S. House of Representatives, (AZ-08)133  Prepared Statement.............................................    27134135                       BOUNCE HOUSES, DRONES, AND136                    MASSAGE CHAIRS: A REVIEW OF VA'S137                    PURCHASE HISTORY IN THE VETERAN138                    READINESS AND EMPLOYMENT PROGRAM139140                              ----------141142                        THURSDAY, APRIL 16, 2026143144      Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,145                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,146                             U.S. House of Representatives,147                                                    Washington, DC.148    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:33 p.m., in149room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden,150(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.151    Present: Representatives Van Orden, Pappas, McGarvey,152Ramirez, and Kennedy.153154        OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN155156    Mr. Van Orden. Good afternoon. The second meeting will come157to order. I want to thank everyone for being here today to158discuss the Veterans Readiness and Employment programs, VR&E.159The purpose of this program is to assist veterans who have160service-connected disabilities with the training and skills161they need in order to obtain meaningful employment or live162fully independent lives.163    I know that this sounds so funny. I know that the doors of164this program can open for veterans and their families that they165otherwise may not have access to, so this program allows other166programs--or veterans to have access to them. It is a fantastic167benefit. That does not mean that we can give or are going to168give you guys a blank check for VR&E.169    Today we are going to examine the potential waste, fraud,170and abuse that continues to occur with this multibillion-dollar171U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) program. This is172directly in line with the Trump administration appointing Vice173President J.D. Vance to take care of other things in the174executive branch and we look forward to working hand-in-hand175with you guys.176    Here are a couple examples. The VA has approved a purchase,177$31,000 for three custom-raised flower beds for a veteran to178learn how to live independently. Having lived independently for179a very long period of time, I never saw the necessity for a180raised flower bed. The average market price for a flower bed is181between $1,100 to $3,175. $917,000 for initial evaluation and182case management. That is what we got to talk about. What does183this evaluation and case management mean and how can we be184spending just under a million dollars for that for an185individual veteran?186    The Federal Government is having to pay over market prices187on many items that are meant to help veterans find and maintain188gainful employment. This is not a fiscally responsible--this is189not fiscally responsible and shows that more guardrails and190justifications are needed to approve these purchases. The issue191here is that these purchases were made without employment192metrics or outcomes, and this is due to the VR&E program193sliding under the radar. If VA were to provide information that194shows how these purchases resulted in veteran employment, then195I am all for it as student veterans should be provided with all196the necessary items they need for self-employment, economic197opportunity and for their academic betterment.198    However, we have to ensure that the taxpayers are also199protected as the costs for this program continue to skyrocket.200One individual, this is crazy, one individual has spent over201$800,000 in less than 3 years and over $300,000 in 1 year. That202is one veteran. This is an absurd amount of money that goes203against the intent of the VR&E program and my legislation would204help cap the amount of money that can be spent annually on205supplies for VR&E enrollees.206    This issue here is that we do not know the outcomes and207more oversight is needed. VA projects the program to cost208double over the next 2 fiscal years. We need to make sure that209this program works for the veteran and it is not a blank check210to continuously stay in a program and not reach the ultimate211goal of program--of the meaning of the program, sorry, which is212employment.213    Under current law, there is no cap on the number of times214you can enter the program. We have seen several individuals who215have been in this program for over two decades. We have several216individuals who have been involved in VR&E for over two217decades. If disabled veterans are truly in need, they can and218should--we can and should help them. I think we also agree that219a training program that continues for 20 years is not meeting220the needs of the veteran or the taxpayer. We must examine VA's221path forward with VR&E to ensure that there are checks and222balances in the program to safeguard the integrity of this223benefit, and I look forward to hearing from you guys from the224VA.225    I also will mention that Ranking Member Pappas, my friend,226and I have discussed this and I think that we are of common227accord and both of us really want this program to work. We also228understand that there is--we have to have measurable outcomes229to make sure that we help the most amount of veterans as230possible.231    With that, I do yield to my good friend, Ranking Member232Pappas.233234       OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRIS PAPPAS, RANKING MEMBER235236    Mr. Pappas. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman.237    When veterans finish their service to our country, too many238have difficulty figuring out what to pursue next., securing239steady employment, or experience a variety of other issues.240Adapting to civilian life. That is why the VR&E program was241established. To provide veterans with the resources and242guidance to help navigate these obstacles and secure employment243or even establish their own small business.244    Indeed, VR&E is one of the most effective services that VA245provides during the critical transition period to help veterans246land on their feet, which is why I feel it is necessary to247emphasize how disingenuous I feel that the messaging and248rationale behind this hearing is. From what I understand, this249hearing was prompted by cherry-picking some of the highest cost250items from various VA regional offices. My staff requested251copies of these documents multiple times so we could understand252what was going on and scrutinize the expenditures. The majority253refused to provide a copy. I think this is extremely254frustrating since the entire discussion today was prompted and255informed by these very documents.256    Nonetheless, we were able to track them down ourselves.257These documents primarily show that VR&E is doing what it is258supposed to do for veterans. Of course, like all government259programs, it needs oversight and could be improved. The items260purchased for veterans were in support of successful261businesses. That means veterans created business plans, had262them approved by a counselor, and then launched those small263businesses.264    From the documents from VA, we have learned of additional265examples of veterans receiving resources from VA to start a266fishery business and a commercial printing business. In both267cases, VA's support actually exceeded any of the examples268raised by the majority in the title, but were not included in269the provocative hearing title itself. Encouraging veterans to270believe in themselves, become entrepreneurs, and build a life271where their service is complete is exactly what this program is272designed to do.273    By the way, the businesses the majority has focused on,274they are still successful today, providing jobs and275contributing to local economies across the country. To point to276these purchases through some sort of Department of Government277Efficiency (DOGE) lens is completely out of context and does a278disservice to the constructive ways that we should be examining279and improving VR&E.280    I am interested in helping--in hearing more from VA about281their process and controls to ensure the integrity of this282program. We should not be targeting a successful program283because it is doing what it is supposed to do: supporting284veterans who develop a successful business model approved by285both VA and Small Business Administration (SBA) and need286support to buildupon their success. The highest spending item,287in fact, was contracting out for VR&E services. That is what we288should be discussing if we want to talk about ways that we can289reduce spending, improve oversight, and improve VR&E290effectiveness for veterans.291    VA is still feeling the effects of President Trump and Elon292Musk's staff cuts and now is being forced to contract out to293provide veterans with their earned benefits. That means our294veterans are receiving inferior services that are costing295Americans more. When doctors prescribe a major purchase for a296veteran, VR&E counselors are asked to approve or deny whether297or not that purchase is appropriate. In the past, that meant a298careful review of the recommendation from a doctor, a review of299the veteran's situation, and an assessment of the300appropriateness of such a purchase. With the caseloads now at301about 200 cases per counselor and staffing in the agency302reeling from DOGE cuts, counselors are simply making the best303decisions they can given limited time and resources.304    We should take a serious look at what can be done to305improve this program, how we can better support VR&E staff and306its mission. This includes properly staffing the agency so it307has the staff necessary to properly conduct oversight and308reviews of spending and that we do not have to spend millions309of dollars on overpriced contractors. That is the hearing that310I believe we should be having.311    This committee claims to be looking for answers as to why312VR&E is experiencing delays and I think it is simple: the313program is not staffed appropriately. With the counselors314overworked and aging out of the workforce, we are facing a315major staffing cliff at VR&E if we do not act fast. I look316forward to hearing from VA and our witnesses and our witness317from Paralyzed Veterans of America (PVA) today because318oversight of VR&E is important, it is needed, and it is up to319this Congress to provide the agency with the resources it needs320to do its job.321    I yield back.322    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back on.323    I will introduce our witness panel. Our first witness is324Ms. Margarita Devon--Devlin, sorry, Margarita, principal deputy325undersecretary for benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration326at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Accompanying Ms. Devlin327is Ms. Chantile Stovall, acting executive director, Veterans328Readiness and Employment Service, Veterans Benefit329Administration at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Our third330witness is Ms. Julie Howell, associate legislative director at331Paralyzed Veterans of America. Thank you very much for coming.332    Please stand and raise your right hand.333    [Witnesses sworn.]334    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the335witnesses have answered in the affirmative.336    Ms. Devlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver337your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.338339                 STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN340341    Ms. Devlin. Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden and Ranking342Member Pappas. It is good to see you both again and343distinguished members of the subcommittee. Thank you for the344opportunity to testify at this hearing titled ``Bounce Houses,345Drones, and Massage Chairs: A Review of VA's Purchase History346in the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program.'' Joining me347today from the Veterans Benefits Administration is Ms. Chantile348Stovall, acting executive director of VR&E Service.349    The VR&E program plays a vital role in helping veterans350overcome service-connected disabilities so they can achieve351meaningful career goals or, when employment is not feasible,352attain greater independence in their daily lives. The purchases353that may appear unconventional at first glance represent real354veterans who, through tailored rehabilitation plans, have built355successful businesses, secured long-term employment, or356achieved essential independence in their homes and in their357communities.358    Congress establishes the statutory authorities under which359the VR&E program operates and VA implements those authorities360as written. The purchases referenced in the title of this361hearing were made within that framework in direct support of362approved rehabilitation plans designed to meet the363individualized needs of the veterans we serve. Each decision364reflects a balance between responsible stewardship of taxpayer365dollars and providing veterans the best opportunity for their366success.367    VA remains fully committed to strengthening the VR&E368program through rigorous financial oversight, robust internal369controls, and modernization efforts that enhance service to370veterans and accountability to taxpayers and Congress. If371Congress chooses to amend these authorities or redefine the372program's parameters, VA will fully and faithfully implement373those changes. We stand ready to provide technical assistance374as you consider any potential updates to ensure the program375remains strong, accountable, and aligned with your intent.376    Ms. Stovall and I are prepared to answer your questions.377Thank you very much for inviting us.378379    [The Prepared Statement Of Margarita Devlin Appears In The380Appendix]381382    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Devlin.383    The written statement of Ms. Devlin will be entered into384the hearing record.385    Ms. Howell, you are now recognized for 5 minutes--for 2-1/2386minutes--just kidding, 5 minutes to deliver your testimony on387behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.388389                   STATEMENT OF JULIE HOWELL390391    Ms. Howell. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and392members of the subcommittee, PVA appreciates the opportunity to393share our views on the Veteran Readiness and Employment394program, or VR&E.395    VR&E assists disabled veterans in finding meaningful and396lasting employment despite incurring disabilities or illnesses397due to their military service. The services and supports398available to veterans with catastrophic disabilities through399VR&E are critical to ensuring their successful employment400outcomes and/or their independence. Although today's hearing is401focused on purchase history within VR&E, our written testimony402mainly highlights our broader concerns with the program. We403chose this focus because PVA believes that strong management404and oversight of the VR&E program are essential for the405program's fiscal integrity and accuracy.406    I will focus my oral remarks on three topics: a brief407reminder of the mission of VR&E, some ongoing concerns that we408have, and I will close with a few suggestions that may help to409improve delivery of this critical benefit.410    First, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of411what the VR&E program is supposed to do for veterans. All you412have to do is look up VR&E on any social media platform to see413that confusion abounds and answers are hard to find. At its414core, VR&E is an employment program for disabled veterans. Most415veterans believe that VR&E exists to help them return to school416or address needs related to starting their own business, but417many veterans do not understand the role of a vocational418rehabilitation counselor, or a VRC. A VRC is trained to help419veterans find suitable, sustainable, and financially sufficient420employment that will sustain them through their lives, not just421for a few years after they have completed the program. It is422imperative for stakeholders to understand that the expertise423that comes with a master's in vocational rehabilitation424directly relates to a veteran's viability and long-term425employment outcomes.426    However, in this current environment, VRCs are expected to427do the administrative work of authorizations, reimbursements,428uploads, letters, dashboards, and tracking performance metrics.429These are important functions, but they are not employment430counseling. If these functions are a priority for VA, then VA431should hire staff with business, accounting, or similar432backgrounds to accomplish that work. Doing so would free up the433time, allowing a VRC to focus on the work of employment434counseling, particularly for veterans with complex435disabilities.436    While PVA is grateful for the opportunities we have been437given to provide feedback on this essential program, there438seems to be a disconnect between the VA, Congress, and the439veteran community about the best ways to guarantee the440sustainability of this important program, which brings me to my441second point. For years, PVA and other Veterans Service442Organizations (VSO) have requested additional appropriations443from Congress to meet the demands of the program that is facing444exponentially increasing enrollment numbers. These requests445have mostly gone unheard. Veterans still experience long wait446times, struggle to contact their counselors, and VRCs are447overburdened by administrative tasks.448    We fear that the VR&E program is experiencing a perfect449storm of high case volume, understaffing, and an enormous450amount of administrative burden. Morale is low, demand is high,451and VRCs are close to burning out. If something is not done to452address these issues, veterans will likely wait even longer to453get into the program, enrolled veterans may experience delayed454payments and other negative effects that could impact their455long-term well being.456    Finally, I would like to offer a couple suggestions that we457think could help in the delivery of benefits for VR&E458participants. First, VR&E needs to hire additional staff.459Recently, on a stakeholder engagement call, VR&E shared that460they were undergoing a hiring blitz to help fill vacancies461across the country. However, it is unclear from that462conversation which positions VA is prioritizing. The VR&E463program, again, should consider hiring additional support staff464to help reduce the administrative burden that is falling heavy465on the shoulders of counselors.466    Next, VR&E should create national specialty teams for467complex service tracks, such as retroactive inductions, self-468employment, and independent living.469    Additionally, VR&E should end mandatory overtime. VRCs are470not a finite resource, and PVA has concerns about the471sustainability of this cadre in the face of increasing demand.472Without sufficient staffing across the country, veterans will473continue to face barriers that impact their financial474independence as well as their participation in the labor475market.476    In closing, VR&E is an earned benefit intended to get477veterans into suitable employment, and the longstanding issues478that have been voiced over the years continue. It is essential479that we do everything we can to ensure the sustainability of480the VR&E program.481    Thank you again for the invitation to testify, and I482welcome any questions you have.483484    [The Prepared Statement Of Julie Howell Appears In The485Appendix]486487    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Howell.488    The written statement of Ms. Howell will be entered into489the hearing record.490    We are now going to proceed to questionings. They are going491to call votes here in a little bit, so we are going to do 3492minutes per member and then if we have time, we will go into a493second round of questions. I just do not want to stop there and494restart it again.495    With that said, I now recognize Ranking Member Pappas for 3496minutes.497    Mr. Pappas. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.498    The President's budget was just released and it targets499hiring 300 counselors next year to support the growing, growing500caseloads within VR&E. Ms. Devlin, I wonder if I could ask you501a few questions about this, if you could address the current502caseload within VR&E.503    Ms. Devlin. Yes, thank you for the question. Our current504ratio is 1-to-199, which is why we really need to get these505counselors hired.506    Mr. Pappas. If the 300 are hired, does that get us closer507to the 1-to-125? Does it get us all the way there?508    Ms. Devlin. It will get us closer, not all the way.509    Mr. Pappas. Can you address what Ms. Howell brought up in510her testimony about the need for more support staff and how511that could, you know, help balance the workload of VRCs?512    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I agree that VRCs513should be spending more time counseling veterans and less time514on administrative tasks. When we look at what lends itself to515satisfaction with the program, what veterans will typically516tell you is their relationship with their counselor is the most517important part of their satisfaction, that connection, the518ability to have the counselor fully invest in that veteran's519success. The Readiness and Employment System (RES) system that520we are in the process of deploying will take a lot of that521administrative burden off of the counselors while also522administering more internal controls for fiscal accountability.523    Mr. Pappas. How confident are you that this 300 target can524be hit? Do we have enough qualified applicants that will be out525there for us to hire? Do you feel like the pay scale is526competitive enough with the private sector?527    Ms. Devlin. It is a great question. Yes. We are all--we are528about halfway there on our goal to hire these individuals. We529went out with a very aggressive recruitment strategy. We did530not just put, you know, job announcements on USAJobs. We531recruited through the Commission on Rehabilitation Counselor532Certification, through LinkedIn, through the colleges and533universities that offer these training programs. We got more534applicants than ever and we are in the process of filling all535those vacancies.536    Mr. Pappas. I am wondering if you can address some of the537expenditures that we were taking a look at: 49,000 for fishing538supplies, 46,000 on a Ultraviolet (UV) printer for a commercial539printing company. I understand that you cannot get into the540specifics of these, you know, veterans' cases. I am wondering541if you can answer this, are the veterans who received those542resources currently running small businesses with these543supplies and have they been successful?544    Ms. Devlin. Yes, I will let Ms. Stovall address those545specific cases. We were--we did look into the cases that are546the subject of the letter. I will tell you that it was really547heartwarming to hear the stories as told by these veterans of548their self-employment success and the challenges that they had549trying to find employment before they got to a VR&E counselor,550who helped them achieve their dream of having their own551business.552    I will let Ms. Stovall address those specific cases.553    Ms. Stovall. Thank you for the question. With regard to the554fish hatchery supplies that was purchased, the 49,000 for that555purchase, that is for a veteran that is participating in self-556employment and they are successfully operating their business.557In fact, they reported earnings of 237,000 for 2024. The558veteran is still in the program right now. We do have a559requirement to follow them for up to a year before we close the560case to make sure that the program or the business is still561viable and sustainable.562    Mr. Pappas. Okay. I am over my time, so I yield back.563Thanks.564    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields.565    The chair now recognizes my friend from the great State of566Kentucky, Mr. McGarvey.567    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you all for568being here.569    This program is so important because our veterans are so570important. The Veterans Readiness and Employment program, or571VR&E as we are calling it, this is something that veterans turn572to when they are trying to rebuild their futures. They are573looking for a path back to work, back to stability, back to574independence. That is why every delay, every unclear message575from VA, it has real-world, real-life consequences for these576veterans and their families.577    Participation in VR&E has grown a lot in recent years578because of the Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our579Promise to Address Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act. I think580this is a good thing. This is a positive development. Too many581veterans are walking into a system right now that is582overwhelmed. We got to make sure that these veterans--sometimes583are waiting months to talk to a counselor for the first time.584In the most extreme cases, the wait is stretched past 5 months,585that is not a small inconvenience. That is a veteran sitting at586home. That is a veteran who is unable to start school. That is587a veteran who is not back to work, who is not beginning588training, who is not moving forward.589    What the veteran tells us and the data shows is that the590real challenge here is access and communication. Veterans591cannot reach their counselors. Appointments are rushed. Some592are told to complete forms on their own that are meant to be593filled out with the help of a super--a trained professional.594When the process becomes really confusing, then the veterans,595they lose time, they lose their benefits, they sometimes just596give up altogether.597    I want to point out that is not the veteran's failure. That598is a failure of the system that is supposed to be helping our599veterans.600    At the end of the day, this program, we know it works when601the veterans can actually use it, when they can get an602appointment, when they can understand the process, when they603can trust that the VA is focused on them and their success.604That is what today should be about. Are the veterans getting605what they need to build their future? Are we letting political606theater getting in the way?607    Ms. Devlin, I will start with you. You heard me mention608that we have seen VR&E wait times stretch from a couple of609weeks to more than 5 months in some areas. What is VA doing610right now, not in 2027, not after another Information611Technology (IT) rollout, but right now to shorten those wait612times for veterans who are stuck in limbo?613    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. You are right, we614were well on our way to reducing those wait times before the615government shut down. Unfortunately, during those 43 days, we616were unable to process any applications or conduct counseling617appointments. We are working through it. We want our veterans618to get into programs as quickly as possible.619    We are doing many different things. One of the things we620are doing in the process of hiring is while those vacancies621exist in certain stations, we are making sure to sort of622equalize the work by distributing it more equitably across623where we have staffing capacity. Many of our veterans prefer624the telecounseling appointments anyway. It really does not625matter if your counselor is in Milwaukee or in San Diego.626Right? As long as you can get your appointment, get into a627rehab plan, and get started on your way. That is helped us to628control time and we are bringing that timeliness back down629again.630    Mr. McGarvey. Thanks. It has to be brought down. Also, it631is not just the timeless, in the few seconds I have got left,632it is communicating to the veteran what that is and then633holding up your-all's end of the bargain.634    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.635    Mr. McGarvey. I yield back.636    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields.637    I now recognize myself for 3 minutes.638    What is the educational requirement, Ms. Devlin, for a VA639counselor?640    Ms. Devlin. Master's level training and rehabilitation641counseling. We have recently expanded it to allow many other642master's level degrees to count toward that requirement.643    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. We got something through the House, a644bill that lowers that to a bachelor's degree requirement, which645I went to VR&E myself personally. You do not need a master's646degree to be a counselor. Right after we got that passed, it647was a couple weeks after, they announced they are hiring these648things and the President's--about 300 new counselors. I would649like 3,000 new counselors.650    The education requirement is silly. That is an651administrative restraint that the VA has put on itself.652    What is the average full employment rate from the last653cycle for a veteran that goes through VR&E?654    Ms. Devlin. I am sorry. I do not understand the question.655    Mr. Van Orden. Of the veterans that go through the VR&E656program, what is the full employment rate from this last cycle?657    Ms. Devlin. Of the veterans that went through. Last year,658we had 10,527 actually be declared as a successful outcome,65955,301 entered a new rehabilitation plan during that year and66083,188 continued pursuing a previously developed plan.661    Mr. Van Orden. Where does the percentage 37 come into this?662    Ms. Devlin. I am not sure where that is coming from.663    Mr. Van Orden. That is if you look at the full employment664rate.665    How many jobs have graduates? I know this is not the666intended purpose of this. Specifically, how many jobs have667graduates of VRE created? Like, for instance, the fish668hatchery, which, by the way, that is not a lot of money for a669fish hatchery. I will be honest. We have got one in our670district. I do not know how small that joint is, but--so how671many people does that person employ? Do we know?672    Ms. Stovall. I am not sure of that, sir.673    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. These are the sorts of things that we674need to start tracking because if we want to invest, you know,675Mr. Pappas brings up this amount of money for this commercial676printing thing. If we are going to invest a million dollars677into a veteran and they are hiring 50 people, that is a heck of678a lot different than investing a million dollars into a veteran679who is self-employed and not employing anybody else.680    If we look at this program more holistically and understand681that we want our veterans to be radically successful, I want682this to be very available to everybody, but when we are looking683at these numbers, we need to have more metrics of, like, what684is actually happening. Like what is the average length of685employment for a veteran following their case closing at VR&E?686    Ms. Devlin. If you look at our longitudinal study, which687has been following veterans for about 20 years, their688percentage of employment rate is 74 percent.689    Mr. Van Orden. For how long?690    Ms. Devlin. Well, the oldest category that we are following691is from 2010----692    Mr. Van Orden. Okay.693    Ms. Devlin [continuing]. so 16 years.694    Mr. Van Orden. For the average amount of years a person695is----696    Ms. Devlin. Veterans who went through the program in 2010,697who are still----698    Mr. Van Orden. I am going to respect my own rule. My time699has expired. We are going to go into a second round of700questioning.701    I now recognize the ranking member for, you know, you want702to just do 5 minutes?703    Mr. Pappas. Whatever you think.704    Mr. Van Orden. I now recognize the ranking member for 5705minutes. I think they are holding votes here.706    Mr. Pappas. All right. Thanks for your generosity, Mr.707Chairman.708    Mr. Van Orden. Oh, sheesh, knock it off.709    Mr. Pappas. Ms. Devlin, I understand the requests for VR&E710resources are reviewed, they require approval. Could you talk a711little bit more about the oversight and controls that are in712place for these expenditures? Are there instances in which VA713may decline a veteran's initial business model? Even if the714business model is approved, are there declines in terms of715request for resources?716    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. Yes, we do have an717approval process, which I can let Ms. Stovall talk about. We718would potentially deny a program. We collaborate with the Small719Business Administration, also, in helping to evaluate the720feasibility of the program. Ms. Stovall can speak to----721    Mr. Pappas. Okay.722    Ms. Devlin [continuing]. the internal controls we have.723    Ms. Stovall. Yes, thank you. We do have internal controls724which start at the regional office. There are the plans that725cost over $50,000 would come to me for review. During my time726that I have been in this seat for the past 8 months, I have had727the opportunity to review three of those plans--excuse me, five728plans, and one has been approved, one has been denied, and729there are three others that are going through the process right730now.731    When we look at those plans, we are looking for viability.732We are looking to determine if it is a feasible vocational goal733for the veteran or not and if they have considered all the734criteria, like can this veteran complete traditional employment735or not, before we jump to self-employment. On those bases are--736those are kind of what we look at.737    Also, if the business is already an existing business, that738is not something that we would support under self-employment.739    Mr. Pappas. Okay. I appreciate that.740    Regarding the $15,000 that was spent on the massage chair,741I wonder if you have some additional context for that one. Does742VA stand by the purchase and agree that it was needed?743    Ms. Stovall. Yes. The massage chair was purchased for 100744percent service-connected disabled veteran that suffered from745some vascular as well as mental health conditions, Post-746Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) or phobia. We did consult with747Veterans Health Administration (VHA) medical--well,748professional occupational therapist who approved the749recommendation for that particular chair.750    I would just like to say when we are--it is an independent751living case and so when we are looking at what is appropriate752for the veteran, I think we need to look at the whole person.753This is one of those psychosocial, you know, areas where we754need to consider what is necessary for this veteran to be able755to live independently in their community. By being able to756relieve the stress and anxiety, we were able to successfully757rehab her where she could start to integrate into her758community.759    Mr. Pappas. Thank you for that.760    The documents provided on VR&E spending from VA also show761incredibly high spending on contracting. In fact, the762contracting dollars dwarf the actual spending on supplies for763veterans. I am wondering if you can just tell us more about why764VA is contracting to this degree, spending millions of dollars765on contracting within VR&E.766    Ms. Devlin. Yes, thank you for that question. I have been767in the VA for a long time, and when I started as a counselor,768we had contracting back then.769    Contracting does not replace the need for a counselor.770Contractors help support, but they cannot make decisions. They771can do the part of the process, for example, of assessing772interests, aptitudes, abilities, helping the veteran explore773career opportunities, developing some proposed avenues for the774veteran to achieve those goals. Then they turn that work into a775counselor, who meets with the veteran and makes the final776decisions and then approves any purchases that might be777required for that. We can also have contractors support case778management to help make sure we are getting grades and, you779know, supporting the veteran through their training.780    The contracts used to be done at the regional office level781when I started almost 31 years ago. For many years now, they782have been centralized in Central Office. It is sort of one783giant contract vehicle and then the regional offices issue task784orders against them. That creates greater control, greater785accountability, and better sort of fiscal responsibility786because we can get better pricing that way.787    Mr. Pappas. Ms. Howell, I am wondering if you can answer788the question about whether you do--whether VA was spending this789amount of money on contracting and how you view that.790    Ms. Howell. Thank you for the question, sir. I believe Ms.791Devlin spoke about contracting in her last testimony on VR&E.792We did not really know what that looked like or what it meant793to be people in the field. I think if VR&E, if they are so794overburdened by people coming into the program or existing795cases that they need to spend this kind of money for796contracting, it begs the question, like, can we not just spend797that money hiring additional staff with the understanding that798there is going to be onboarding? Like you have--just because799you have that master's in rehabilitative counseling, you still800need to learn the VA systems. You still need--everyone knows801what it is like to be new at a job. You got to learn the way802this stuff goes.803    Sorry, I do not know if I should keep talking or if he is804going to get----805    Mr. Pappas. I do not think he noticed, but now he has.806    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.807    Mr. Pappas. I yield back.808    Mr. Van Orden. Well, no, because I am looking. I am looking809at this.810    The chair now recognizes Mr. McGarvey from the great State811of Kentucky.812    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.813    I am going to go back with you. PVA has warned that VR&E is814at a dangerous tipping point, and that is a quote. You say this815is because there are high caseloads because of the816administrative burden that is going on there. From your817perspective, what is the single biggest barrier preventing818veterans, especially those with catastrophic disabilities, from819getting timely, meaningful VR&E support?820    Ms. Howell. Thank you for the question, sir. I think the821thing that is most in the way for one of my members being able822to successfully engage with the program is that thoughtful823employment counseling, which is what a VRC's job is. I think824there is a fundamental misunderstanding between the education825level required for a VRC to do that employment counseling long826term for a veteran with catastrophic disabilities. If we have a827case, like I was a VR&E participant, the chairman was a VR&E828participant, we are able-bodied veterans that do not have the829same level of complexities as someone who is a member of my830organization.831    If VRCs are spending their time doing all these832administrative tasks and they are being pulled away from833offering true employment counseling, that does a disservice to834our members. We have spoken to many VRCs over the years and we835are hearing that, you know, we are trying to rate VRC's836performance metrics by the same metrics that they are applying837to claims raters. These are fundamentally different services838and their delivery is completely different. If a VRC is839spending time being thoughtful about the employment counseling840they are delivering to veterans that is showing up in their841metrics and they are getting pressure from their management to842improve the metrics for leadership.843    I do think it is a fine line between allowing them to do844their job, which, again, is rehabilitative counseling for845complex disabilities and complex cases. A traditional education846path may be someone without a bachelor's degree, that is fine.847They can handle those cases that were like the chairman's or848mine's that do not have those complexities. VRCs need to be849allowed to offer thoughtful employment counseling for the850veterans that need it.851    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Ms. Howell. I appreciate that.852    I will just say for the veterans in the independent living853track, the delays do not just slow down a career. They affect854the daily life of a veteran. What changes would make the855biggest difference for those veterans right now? You talked856about some of the problems. What changes would you make right857now to make the biggest difference right now?858    Ms. Howell. Thank you for the question, sir. I do not know859that fixing independent living has--there is an immediate860solution to this, but I do think that experienced VRCs who have861been at this game a long time, they can create a sort of tiger862team to handle these more complex cases, so that as we are863onboarding these new VRCs that, again, are learning systems,864the experienced, folks--because independent living is, from865what I have been told, a very complex system thing to manage as866a VRC. If we allow a tiger team of some sort of experts who are867well trained in processing all the paperwork needed for this,868understand the tracking mechanisms, the consultations with VHA869and occupational therapists, if we can create a team that870understands that system and have them work on these cases, I871think that would have an impact.872    Yes. Thank you.873    Mr. McGarvey. Cool.874    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.875    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields.876    I was just listening and we are having great parallel877discussions here because we are trying to process what is going878through, and it is great.879    The RES system--or let us clear some--clear the air a880little bit here. We have two different things here. You are881asking for more counselors, which is why we lowered the882educational threshold, because I fundamentally disagree that883you need a master's degree so we can get--where the pool of884potential applicants will be greater. That is great. Then you885are asking for support staff. Well, the contractors are filling886the position of the support staff now.887    I think it is--I want these things to go through quickly, I888want them to be efficient, and I want them to be very889effective. The ability to hire all these other people into the890VA system, you know, in a timely manner so that backlogs and891everything for the VR&E program, we are going to have to deal892with, what did Dick Cheney say? You do not go to war with the893Army you want, you go to the war with the Army you have. This894is what we have right now. We are trying to get this right.895    When is this RES going to be on the readiness employment896system? When is that going to be FOC, or fully operational897capable?898    Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. It is in Initial899Operational Capability (IOC) right now in all 56 regional900offices. It will be fully enabled with all cases by Veterans'901Day.902    Mr. Van Orden. Oh, that is a pretty good day.903    Ms. Devlin. Mm-hmm, it is.904    Mr. Van Orden. Then how many of these contracting positions905are going to be eliminated once that is FOC?906    Ms. Devlin. Contract support is basically surge support. it907is not that we have positions. We have contracts that enable us908to surge when we need to. For example, we have a higher volume909of applicants that hit the San Diego area all at once. We can910leverage contractors to help support those counselors.911    These are people with the same credentials. Those912credentials are important to be able to understand the physical913and emotional aspects of disability and how that relates to the914labor market. There is a relevance to this education915requirement.916    Mr. Van Orden. I get it. Ms. Howell, then how does that917jive with what you said, that we should have more permanent918positions if the contractors that we are hiring in surge919capacity have the same qualifications as the people that you920are saying you want to be employed by the VA? Did I hear that921right? It sounds like you want two pieces of pie or something.922If Ms. Devlin is saying that the contractors that are being923hired and are working at the VA have the same accreditation and924qualifications as a permanent party person in the VA, why are925you asking for more VA employees if it is already being met by926the contracting entity?927    Ms. Howell. Well, I am not--I do not have the numbers. The928data was not shared with me on the expenditures on what is929spent on these contracts. I did not have access to that930information.931    What I can say is that we are in a surge moment right now.932Since I have been doing this work, we have been over the933threshold with or without contracting. The caseload has never934been below 1-to-125 in the 4 years I have been at PVA. They935still need a full-time staff, like, to do these things. It936stands to reason that it might be cheaper to offer this stuff937in-house rather than contracting.938    Additionally, when it comes to the contracting, we have939been told from veterans that they are joining their intake call940that is supposed to be a one-on-one with a counselor, and them941and 400 of their closest battle buddies are on a Zoom with one942person trying to do the, like, the intro sort of orientation943course for this.944    Mr. Van Orden. I hear you. I am just one thing that I am945going to push back on you here. I do not--cheaper is not a word946I am going to use when it comes to veterans. So efficiency,947that sort of stuff, but never cheaper. Less expensive maybe,948more efficient, 100 percent. We are not--and I know that we949have not discussed this, but I know Chris and I are 6 and 7. We950do not talk about--we are not going to cheap our veterans951anywhere. Maybe that is not what you intended to say.952    Ms. Devlin, who certifies these contractors?953    Ms. Devlin. The contracting officer puts the requirements954in the contract and the person who oversees the contract would955review the resumes and confirm that they meet the requirements.956    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. A permanent Veterans Affairs957Administration employee and this contractor, the same person is958making sure they have this proper certification. Correct?959    Ms. Devlin. It is not a certification, it is an educational960requirement. Yes, essentially when an employee is hired, a961Federal Government employee is hired, it is part of the hiring962process. Right?963    Mr. Van Orden. Yes.964    Ms. Devlin. We verify for a contractor, we review the965contract, the resumes that get submitted for the contract as966they get submitted. It is surge capacity, so these are not----967    Mr. Van Orden. Hold on 1 second. I only have 15 seconds.968Ms. Howell, we have a--it is a volume issue, not a quality969issue. Is that right?970    Ms. Howell. Yes, sir.971    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Well, we are working on that. We972really are.973    Good. Okay. Well, with that, my time has expired.974    I would like to thank you all for coming today. I thank you975for your work, I really do. As I said, I am a--I attended--it976is so funny. I went to VR&E and now I am a Member of Congress,977so maybe we should cancel the entire program. Just kidding.978    We are working diligently and it is going to--it is just979going to take time. Just like it takes time to educate980somebody. Takes time to hire somebody. Takes time to get into a981place. Takes some time to learn your job. I think that we can982all agree that we want to be in the same place, that is every983veteran that has earned this--earned, it is not a gift--that984has earned this benefit, has timely access to the programs that985they are suited for.986    I will throw out these two different anecdotes.987Interestingly enough, I wanted to go to culinary school and988they would not approve it because I had been diagnosed with989PTSD and they have to provide you with knives. The other one990was, it was a running joke in the office that I went through my991stuff is they actually approved clown school for somebody. That992is real.993    What we want to do is make sure that every one of these994dollars is applied most bang for the buck. I would like to see995some more metrics. You said you did a longitudinal study for996over 16 years. I would like to see how many people they are997employing and all these things so that we can maximize, Ms.998Howell, every single thing that we can do for these veterans999because it is critically important and I think it is great.1000    To be able to have dignity as a disabled veteran is1001crucial, and that is earned. It is up to us to fulfill that1002promise that we have made to our veterans.1003    With that, I would like to yield to my ranking member for1004any closing comments.1005    Mr. Pappas. Well, thank you very much and thanks for our1006witnesses for their testimony here today.1007    Look, I have gotten to know veterans in New Hampshire that1008have successfully navigated VR&E and are benefiting in real1009time from the resources that are provided. I think to Ms.1010Howell's point, during your, you know, years at PVA, the1011caseload issue continues to be a problem. We have an1012overburdened program, and we need more people that are working1013as counselors or supporting counselors to be able to ensure1014that veterans are ultimately getting what they need and deserve1015out of the program.1016    I am glad we could drill down beyond the headline of this1017hearing today and actually talk a little bit about the1018substance of what is going on. I think we all need to make sure1019that we are continuing to work on process improvements,1020ensuring that there is the right scrutiny and oversight1021provided. I think you gave us good answers on that front today.1022    I come back to that core issue. You know, we have got to1023work on those ratios. We, we got to make sure that veterans are1024not waiting and that they are getting the good service that VA1025I know intends to put out.1026    Let us continue to work on that, and yield back my time.1027    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields. Thank you, Ranking1028Member Pappas, and thank you very much for coming today. We--1029you guys are becoming frequent flyers over there.1030    I ask unanimous consent that all members may have 51031legislative days to revise and extend their remarks and include1032any extraneous materials. Without objection, so ordered.1033    The hearing is now adjourned.1034    [Whereupon, at 3:16 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]10351036=======================================================================10371038                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X10391040=======================================================================10411042                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses10431044                              ----------10451046                 Prepared Statement of Margarita Devlin10471048    Good afternoon, Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and1049distinguished members of the Subcommittee. Thank you for inviting me to1050discuss the Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) Veteran Readiness and1051Employment (VR&E) program. I am accompanied by Ms. Chantile Stovall,1052Acting VR&E Service Director.10531054Program Overview10551056    The purpose of the VR&E program is to provide temporary, targeted1057intervention for Service members and Veterans with service-connected1058disabilities affecting their ability to obtain or maintain suitable1059employment or live independently. It provides individualized counseling1060and rehabilitation services through five service tracks - rapid access1061to employment, re-employment, employment through long-term services,1062self-employment and independent living. Once entitlement is1063established, program participants receive tailored support directed1064specifically toward their vocational or independent living goals and1065limited solely to those essential services pertinent to their approved1066rehabilitation plans. Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors (VRCs) work1067with participants to set goals, develop tailored rehabilitation plans1068and guide progress through structured case management.1069    VR&E provides services nationwide through 56 regional offices, the1070National Capital Region Benefits Office, approximately 142 out-based1071locations, 70 military installations supporting the Integrated1072Disability Evaluation System, and 104 VetSuccess on Campus sites. In1073Fiscal Year 2025, more than 1,500 employees delivered over $2.8B in1074services to more than 199,600 Veterans.1075    VRCs and Vocational Rehabilitation Specialists (VRS) operate within1076defined VR&E policies, established cost thresholds, and approval1077protocols. While rehabilitation plans are developed collaboratively1078with Veterans, every requested service, supply, or piece of equipment1079must directly support the approved goal and be fully documented.1080    Staff follow standardized procedures to verify need, justify each1081item, and obtain supervisory or higher-level approval for requests that1082exceed delegated authority. These controls ensure VR&E provides only1083resources essential for training, employment preparation, self-1084employment, or Independent Living while upholding responsible1085stewardship of program funds.10861087Program Oversight10881089    Before a rehabilitation plan is finalized, all services and1090equipment must be approved according to statutory, regulatory and VR&E1091policy thresholds. VR&E enforces internal controls that include1092supervisory review, fiscal oversight, and required justification when a1093plan exceeds a counselor's authority. The Invoice Payment Processing1094System (IPPS) further safeguards approvals by routing requests to the1095correct official and preventing actions beyond delegated authority.1096    Higher cost or complex procurements may require approval from1097regional or national VR&E leadership. These controls ensure all1098procurements are justified, compliant, and aligned with program goals.1099VR&E maintains a robust oversight structure across its regional1100operations. VR&E Officers conduct local quality reviews to ensure1101compliance with policy, documentation standards, and fiscal controls,1102while Support Services Divisions audit purchase card transactions for1103adherence to financial and acquisition regulations.1104    Nationally, VR&E Service reinforces consistency through targeted1105quality reviews, onsite visits, and assessments conducted via the1106Systematic Oversight and Analysis Review (SOAR). Together, these1107strengthen internal controls, mitigate risk, and support disciplined1108fiscal stewardship. As a result, VR&E maintains a 97 percent fiscal1109accuracy score, which is a measure of the accuracy of fiscal activity1110in Chapter 31 cases, including subsistence allowance, and payments such1111as tuition, fees, books, and supplies.11121113Modernization Efforts11141115    VA is strengthening VR&E oversight through the new Readiness &1116Employment System (RES), designed to consolidate case management and1117financial controls into one modern platform. RES has been deployed1118across all 56 regional offices and will replace the legacy Corporate1119WINRS\1\ system. RES standardizes workflows, automates manual1120processes, and ensures entitlement decisions, plans and authorizations1121are consistently documented and auditable. Role based workflows and1122electronic audit trails enhance accountability. Advanced capabilities--1123such as expanded automation and near-real time financial monitoring--1124are currently under development and are expected to be completed by the1125end of Q2 Fiscal Year 2027.1126---------------------------------------------------------------------------1127    \1\ Corporate Winston-Salem, Indianapolis, Newark, Roanoke, and1128Seattle System. The name is derived from the first letter of the names1129of the five pilot test stations that tested the original program. It is1130an automated case management system supporting the VR&E program1131(legacy).1132---------------------------------------------------------------------------1133    These transformation efforts embed internal controls into daily1134operations, strengthen compliance with VA and Federal standards, and1135improves the quality, timeliness of information available for1136management, reporting and oversight. Collectively, RES will enhance1137VR&Es ability to deliver efficient, transparent, and accountable1138services to Veterans.11391140Program Metrics11411142    Program participation has grown significantly since passage of the1143PACT Act, which expanded eligibility for VR&E services. Since August11442022, participation has increased 74 percent--from 120,000 to 210,0001145as of March 2026, demonstrating sustained demand for rehabilitation and1146employment support.1147    In Fiscal Year 2025, VR&E delivered record-setting performance1148across every major measure. The program completed 126,960 entitlement1149determinations, 55,301 Veterans began new rehabilitation programs, and115083,188 Veterans continued in their previously established programs.1151During the same period, VR&E supported 21,773 Veterans in becoming job-1152ready; and achieved 19,372 successful program completions--the highest1153in program history. This included a record 10,527 Veterans who secured1154employment. These outcomes reflect significant progress in preparing1155Veterans for long-term career success, stability, and economic1156independence.11571158Conclusion11591160    In closing, VA remains deeply committed to advancing and1161strengthening the VR&E program, particularly in its financial1162oversight, internal controls and transformation efforts. To optimally1163serve Veterans, I am committed to regularly evaluating and refining1164program parameters in alignment with evolving demands and best1165practices. Implementing explicit expectations and comprehensive1166accountability frameworks for participating Veterans is essential. By1167establishing transparent evaluation metrics and systematically tracking1168progress, the program can enhance its effectiveness in facilitating1169meaningful and sustainable outcomes for Veterans. Chairman Van Orden1170and Ranking Member Pappas, this concludes my statement. My colleague1171and I welcome any questions you or other Members of the Subcommittee1172may have.11731174                   Prepared Statement of Julie Howell11751176    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and members of the1177subcommittee, Paralyzed Veterans of America (PVA), appreciates the1178opportunity to share our views on the Veteran Readiness and Employment1179(VR&E) Program. VR&E assists disabled veterans in finding meaningful1180and lasting employment despite incurring disabilities and illnesses due1181to their military service. The services and supports available to1182veterans with catastrophic disabilities through VR&E are critical to1183ensuring their successful employment outcomes and independence.1184    Prior to the passage of the Americans with Disabilities Act (ADA)1185in 1990, there were no widespread Federal protections against1186disability-based employment discrimination. PVA was a leader in1187advocating for the passage of this seminal civil rights law that1188provides opportunities and access for people with disabilities,1189including disabled veterans. While the ADA guaranteed equal opportunity1190in public accommodations, employment, and State and local government1191services, many disabled veterans still encounter challenges when1192attempting to participate in the labor market.1193    PVA has been fortunate to share our views on the VR&E program over1194the years and has testified several times before this subcommittee. We1195appreciate each of these opportunities but there still seems to be a1196disconnect between the Department of Veteran Affairs (VA), Congress,1197and the veteran community about the best ways to ensure the1198sustainability of this important program. So, PVA would like to take1199this opportunity to discuss the basics of the VR&E program, highlight1200the importance of the Independent Living (IL) track for disabled1201veterans, and offer solutions for the program's future. Also, we will1202recommend ways to improve the experience for veterans attempting to1203access the program, as well as those enrolled, and discuss the1204relationship between PVA and the VR&E program.12051206VR&E Tracks and Purpose12071208    For more than a century, the VR&E program has provided vocational1209rehabilitation counseling and other resources that contribute to the1210long-term well-being of our Nation's disabled veterans. The program is1211comprised of five tracks that offer specialized services and supports,1212providing veterans with the expertise of Vocational Rehabilitation1213Counselors (VRCs) who help them determine suitable employment1214opportunities based on their long-term abilities. The five tracks are1215reemployment, rapid access to employment, self-employment, employment1216through long-term services, and independent living.1217    The reemployment track can assist those who have recently separated1218from the military and who would like to return to their old employer,1219when suitable. This track makes the most sense for servicemembers1220returning to a civilian job from an activation who need workplace1221accommodations due to injury or illness sustained during service, and1222for those under the protection of the Uniformed Services Employment and1223Reemployment Rights Act (USERRA).1224    The rapid access to employment track helps veterans who wish to use1225their existing skills in their next job. Veterans enrolled in this1226track may be eligible for employment counseling, short-term training,1227job-search and job-placement support from VRCs or other program staff,1228such as a Vocational Rehabilitation Specialist (VRS).1229    The employment through long-term services track is designed to1230support veterans who are struggling to find meaningful employment due1231to the severity of their service-connected injury or illness. This1232track allows veterans to pursue education or training to obtain1233employment beyond their current skill set and experience. Employment1234through long-term services is often one of the most misunderstood1235tracks. Too many veterans assume that when they are eligible for VR&E,1236they are automatically eligible for this track and that the VA will pay1237for whatever education path they are interested in. However, that is1238not the case. VR&E is not the Post-9/11 GI Bill.1239    The self-employment track is intended for veterans with an1240employment barrier who have the desire, skills, and drive to run a1241successful business. While in this track, veterans may receive1242coordination services and assistance with a business plan, an analysis1243of the business concept, training in small-business operations,1244marketing, and finance, as well as guidance on obtaining the resources1245needed to carry out the business plan. This track is coordinated with1246the Small Business Administration, which approves business plans on1247behalf of the VRCs. Historically, the self-employment track has been1248marred with confusion, barriers to entry, and a lack of transparency.1249    Last, the IL track is designed to help disabled veterans achieve1250maximum independence in their daily lives. If a veteran has difficulty1251with activities of daily living, such as bathing, dressing, entering or1252exiting their home, or if a veteran is so disabled that they cannot1253work, they may qualify for IL services. Through the IL track, a veteran1254may be eligible for various home adaptation grants intended to improve1255the accessibility of a veteran's home and enhance a veteran's overall1256quality of life.12571258Independent Living and Catastrophically Disabled Veterans12591260    The IL track was established by Congress in 1980 as a pilot program1261with an initial enrollment cap of 500 veterans per fiscal year. Over1262time, the cap has increased, most recently to 2,700 in 2010.1263    The IL track focuses on providing services to veterans with severe1264disabilities; so, they may improve functioning with their disabling1265condition, allowing them to consider employment or volunteer work.1266Through IL, the VA can guide these veterans in developing goals and1267provide information, referrals to support resources, and case1268management, if necessary, to support their success. Several creative1269alternatives to employment preparation can be recommended, purchased,1270or approved by a veteran's counselor to enhance a veteran's quality of1271life.1272    The IL track must be able to accept any veteran who could benefit,1273free from concerns about exceeding the arbitrary enrollment cap. In1274addition, VR&E counselors must be well-versed in the IL track to ensure1275that eligible individuals who would benefit most from enrollment are1276given the opportunity to participate. Once a veteran is in the program,1277VRCs must also closely track referrals to VA services and benefits to1278ensure they are addressed. Otherwise, the program will fail the1279veterans it serves, and their independence will be at risk.12801281Improving Understanding of the VR&E Program12821283    There is a fundamental misunderstanding of what the VR&E Program is1284supposed to do for veterans. You need only look up VR&E on any social1285media platform to see that veterans across the country do not fully1286understand its purpose. At its core, VR&E is an employment program for1287disabled veterans. The differences between tracks may seem frivolous to1288many people, but within each track are specific guidelines and1289regulations that authorize or limit what can be approved.1290    Most veterans believe VR&E exists to help them return to school or1291address needs related to starting their own business, but they often1292fail to understand the role of a VRC in the process. There have been1293many debates about the education level required for a VRC, along with1294proposals to reduce the education requirement for the position. It is1295imperative for stakeholders to understand that the expertise that comes1296with a master's in vocational rehabilitation directly relates to a1297veteran's viability and long-term employment outcomes.1298    It makes little sense for a veteran who is service-connected for1299bad knees and a bad back to be approved by a VR&E counselor for work in1300a labor-intensive field. The service-connected disabilities the veteran1301possesses will inevitably be exacerbated by this type of work, and the1302veteran will likely need to find another career path in the future. But1303what happens to those veterans when they've exhausted their education1304benefits and VR&E eligibility, and then find themselves needing1305assistance at a critical juncture in their lives? A VRC is trained to1306find that veteran suitable, sustainable, and financially sufficient1307employment that will sustain them through their lives, not just for a1308handful of years after leaving the program.13091310Improve and Enhance VR&E13111312    For years, PVA, and other veterans service organizations (VSOs)1313have requested that the VR&E program receive additional appropriations1314from Congress to meet veterans' demand for the program. Over the past1315few years, VR&E program enrollment has grown exponentially with little1316increase in staff or resources. Now, we find ourselves in a crisis.1317Veterans are experiencing the longest wait times of the program's1318history, counselors are drowning in administrative burden, and still,1319we have hearings asking VSOs and the VA, ``How can we fix this?'' The1320answer is simple: there needs to be a hiring blitz for VR&E counselors1321and program support staff.1322    Another potential barrier within the program is that the decision1323to hire an additional counselor is determined at the Regional Office1324(RO) level. With limited available funds, the RO may need additional1325raters or other staff who they believe are more important than a VRC or1326other VR&E staff. Ironically, in past hearings, Congress demanded that1327the program's director fill positions in ROs across the country, but1328the director lacks that authority. After discovering significant wait1329times in the San Diego area, VR&E activated a Tiger Team to help get1330the situation under control. The team successfully got the RO back on1331track, proving that additional staff can subdue this crisis. The VA1332should prioritize hiring VRCs, VRSs, and other administrative staff1333that can help where the need is the greatest, working to reduce the1334backlog of applications, streamline approvals, and delegate1335administrative tasks to support staff to increase a VRC's ability to1336offer direct employment counseling to the most complex cases.1337    VR&E is intended to provide rehabilitation counseling to disabled1338veterans with complex disabilities and serious barriers to employment.1339Providing professional, intensive, and supportive counseling is now1340something that VRCs get penalized for. Instead, they are being asked to1341prioritize authorizations, reimbursements, uploads, letters,1342dashboards, and performance metrics. While these are important1343functions, they are not counseling. If these functions are now the1344priority of the VA, then they should hire individuals with business,1345accounting, or similar backgrounds to accomplish that work. VRCs must1346be able to focus on what they are trained to do: care for veterans and1347their employment situations.1348    The current trajectory of the VR&E program is unsustainable. The1349program is experiencing a perfect storm of high case volume,1350understaffing, and an enormous amount of administrative burden. We have1351heard that morale is impossibly low. The demands of management are1352crushing counselors. Meanwhile, the metrics they are expected to1353perform are created for claims raters, not VRCs and employment1354outcomes. All VRCs are forced to work mandatory overtime, while also1355receiving emails about the importance of work-life balance.1356    Changes are needed to place counseling back at the center of VR&E1357delivery to ensure severely disabled veterans receive access to the1358benefits they have earned. Some recommendations to improve the program1359are to:13601361      Hire additional VRSs to handle basic case management1362tasks such as collecting grades, submitting authorizations to schools,1363reviewing bills, contacting veterans for missing paperwork, conducting1364outreach on inactive cases, and other work that doesn't require the1365skills of a VRCs.13661367      Let master's-level VRCs determine program eligibility;1368administer vocational assessments and career exploration; manage plan1369development and redevelopment; research appropriate training programs;1370conduct labor market analysis; coordinate services with other1371departments; assess the need for accommodations; assist with job1372placement; and, overall, have more contact with higher-need veterans.13731374      Create specialty or tiger teams, composed of master's-1375level VRCs for more complex service tracks, such as IL and self-1376employment. These services differ significantly from the other tracks1377and require substantial manpower.13781379      Create a national specialty team for retroactive1380inductions, which typically require 10-20 hours of work per case.13811382      End mandatory overtime for VRCs and instead, offer it on1383a volunteer basis.13841385      Ensure the new case management system, the Readiness and1386Employment System (RES), is ready for full deployment. Several IT1387projects totaling millions of dollars have already failed to improve1388VR&E delivery. Thus, the VA must be more careful about this latest1389effort. Years of thoughtful development went into the new RES, and we1390must do everything we can to ensure the national rollout is a success.13911392    The bottom line is VR&E can be improved, but it will take1393innovative and intentional actions to move the needle on veteran1394outcomes.13951396PVA and the VR&E Program13971398    At a subcommittee oversight hearing in 2018, our Chief Policy1399Officer, Heather Ansley, testified on VR&E and stressed the importance1400of continued collaboration with public and private partners for the1401program. PVA's Veteran Career Program (VCP), formerly known as PAVE, is1402staffed by VRCs who provide one-on-one career counseling to all1403veterans, transitioning service members, spouses, and caregivers. Our1404VCP team has long worked alongside the VR&E program; however, in recent1405months, something has changed within VR&E, and our VCP staff are seeing1406it firsthand.1407    For a veteran to begin the VR&E program, they must complete VA Form140820-1902w, which is used to determine eligibility and the specific1409employment and training needs of veterans. At the top of the form, it1410states that it is intended to be completed during the comprehensive1411initial evaluation conducted by a VRC. However, our career program1412staff have helped several veterans fill out this form, which is now1413expected to be completed by the veteran before a VRC can even schedule1414the initial intake call. An effective intake appointment is usually1415scheduled for an hour; yet, we hear from veterans that some VRCs are1416only offering a 20-minute phone call for these critical appointments.1417That is unacceptable. A veteran's service-connected disabilities might1418make it difficult or impossible for them to complete this form to even1419receive an evaluation.1420    Our career program staff are even helping VRCs do their jobs,1421especially new counselors who have not received the appropriate1422training. Because of the experience of many of our VCP staff, newer1423VRCs know they are a reliable resource to help them navigate unfamiliar1424systems. This becomes especially true when discussing the complexities1425of the IL track, which could take several hours of administrative work1426just for the initial intake and approval.1427    We are concerned that the VR&E program is at a dangerous tipping1428point. We fear that counselors will choose to leave the VA, leaving the1429program in an even worse situation. Our career program staff feel that1430VA counselors are being placed in an untenable situation, resulting in1431veterans being denied enrollment in VR&E. Veterans may even choose to1432give up on a program they are eligible for because of the significant1433barriers to entry. The current situation cannot continue.1434    Congress's refusal to fund the VR&E program at an appropriate level1435and VA's inability to know what the needs of the program are1436nationally, result in veterans not receiving proper assistance. The VA1437must make every reasonable effort to help veterans access their1438benefits. The growing trend of VA relying on veterans to provide1439additional information to access their earned benefits is becoming1440alarming, when, historically, this was done in partnership with VA1441staff. This is especially true in the case of PVA members who are some1442of the most catastrophically disabled veterans the VA cares for. VRCs1443must be able to spend the appropriate amount of time and attention on1444complex cases.1445    During the 2018 hearing mentioned earlier, Chief Policy Officer,1446Heather Ansley, wrote in her testimony: ``With the reality of1447continuing budgetary constraints, it is unclear when, if ever, VR&E may1448have the counselors and other resources necessary to adequately assist1449the increasing number of veterans who are seeking VR&E services each1450year.'' Here we are again, discussing caseloads being too high and the1451administrative burden being too great, yet there seems to be no1452measurable progress in ensuring that veterans are served by a properly1453resourced system.1454    It is our hope to continue working with this subcommittee,1455Congress, the VA, and other stakeholders to ensure the sustainability1456of the VR&E program. Thank you again for the opportunity to share our1457views on the VR&E program, and I welcome any questions you may have.14581459  Information Required by Rule XI 2(g) of the House of Representatives14601461    Pursuant to Rule XI 2(g) of the House of Representatives, the1462following information is provided regarding Federal grants and1463contracts.14641465                            Fiscal Year 202614661467    Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of National Veterans Sports1468Programs & Special Events--Grant to support rehabilitation sports1469activities--$368,500.14701471                            Fiscal Year 202514721473    Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of National Veterans Sports1474Programs & Special Events--Grant to support rehabilitation sports1475activities--$502,000.14761477                            Fiscal Year 202314781479    Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of National Veterans Sports1480Programs & Special Events--Grant to support rehabilitation sports1481activities--$479,000.14821483                     Disclosure of Foreign Payments14841485    Paralyzed Veterans of America is largely supported by donations1486from the general public. However, in some very rare cases we receive1487direct donations from foreign nationals. In addition, we receive1488funding from corporations and foundations which in some cases are U.S.1489subsidiaries of non-U.S. companies.14901491                       Statements for the Record14921493                              ----------14941495            Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Success14961497    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and Members of the1498Subcommittee:14991500    We thank you for the opportunity to present this statement for1501consideration for this hearing. Veterans Education Success is a1502nonprofit organization with the mission of advancing higher education1503success for veterans, service members, and military families, and1504protecting the integrity and promise of the GI Bill and other Federal1505education programs.1506    In this statement, we address this timely and important hearing1507topic, ``Bounce Houses, Drones, and Massage Chairs: A Review of VA's1508Purchase History in the Veteran Readiness and Employment Program.''1509    As outlined in our previous statements to Congress, we have1510continued to receive complaints from veterans about Veteran Readiness1511and Employment (VR&E).\1\, \2\, \3\ Recent1512complaints continue to tell the story, including these core issues:1513---------------------------------------------------------------------------1514    \1\ Veterans Education Success, ``VES Written Statement on1515Evaluating the Effectiveness of VA Vocational Rehabilitation and1516Employment Programs Before the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs1517Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity'' (Jun. 4, 2019), https://1518vetsedsuccess.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/VES_SFR_VRE_06032019-15191.pdf.1520    \2\ Veterans Education Success, ``Our Statement for the Record on1521the Topic of `Veteran Readiness and Employment: Is VA Succeeding?' ''1522(Sept. 15, 2022), https://vetsedsuccess.org/wp-content/uploads/2022/09/1523VES-SFR-VRE-Hearing-HVAC-EO-September-15-2022.pdf.1524    \3\ Veterans Education Success, ``Our Statement for the Record on1525the Topic of `Examining the Effectiveness of the Veterans Readiness and1526Employment (VR&E) Program' '' (Dec. 11, 2024), https://1527vetsedsuccess.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/12/Statement-For-the-Record-1528VRE-HVAC-EO-Dec-2 024.pdf.15291530A. Veterans feel VR&E and its counselors steer them away from high-1531---------------------------------------------------------------------------1532quality programs or push them to enroll in low-quality programs.15331534    Many veterans have told us that VR&E counselors steer them away1535from top colleges and toward low-quality online programs. One recent1536veteran, a 100 percent disabled 12-year service member, was denied1537approval for an Ivy League business school. The counselor dismissed it1538as too expensive despite its clear career advantages and the likelihood1539of higher earnings. Veterans find the approval process arbitrary, as1540the same schools are approved for others.15411542B. Veterans complain that applying for and using VR&E benefits is too1543difficult; counselors have denied their admission to the VR&E program,1544denied their education program, or refused to cover certain1545programmatic costs without a reasonable explanation, causing tremendous1546stress.15471548    One veteran was denied funding for essential coursework materials,1549including a laptop, with no apparent reason beyond a vague claim of1550insufficient funds. Others report difficulty using VR&E for graduate or1551professional degrees, with counselors blocking doctoral programs and1552instead approving degrees that do not align with their disabilities or1553vocational goals. Some counselors improperly decide that advanced1554degrees are unnecessary, even after veterans have already started their1555programs. Many veterans believe counselors lack training to assess how1556disabilities impact career options.15571558C. VR&E counselors are often challenging to reach and do not provide1559timely information and responses to veterans.15601561    Veterans frequently report unresponsive, incompetent, or even1562antagonistic counselors who seem more focused on disqualifying them1563than helping. Some are repeatedly reassigned counselors, receiving1564conflicting guidance and decisions. Many worry about retaliation.1565    One veteran considered withdrawing from VR&E entirely after a year1566without a response from his counselor. A medically retired Army veteran1567struggled for over 6 months to even start the program.1568    Based on the issues addressed above, we make the following1569recommendations for the Committees' consideration:15701571      Staff Ratio. Reduce the maximum client-to-counselor ratio1572from 125 to 85 to ensure veterans receive timely, individualized1573support. While VA has worked to reduce this number, 125 remains too1574high for counselors to address veterans' needs adequately, and veterans1575continue to report unresponsive counselors.15761577      Counseling Consistency. Require increased training for1578VR&E counselors to ensure consistent, high-quality guidance. Too many1579veterans are steered into low-quality schools while others are approved1580for top-tier institutions. Counselors should be trained to avoid1581recommending schools with Federal caution flags or law enforcement1582actions. They should be empowered to approve graduate degrees when1583needed to help veterans achieve their vocational goals. Additional1584training and explicit guidance would improve program delivery and the1585veteran experience.15861587      System Modernization. Continue to improve and modernize1588the VR&E case management system to prevent payment delays and reduce1589administrative burdens. Given the financial hardships many veterans1590face, timely payments are critical. We commend the e-VA Document1591Repository and Automation Initiative, which significantly reduces the1592burden on both veterans and counselors by streamlining required1593documentation.15941595      Housing Allowance Parity. Establish a Monthly Housing1596Allowance (MHA) for VR&E students at rates comparable to the Post-9/111597GI Bill to keep pace with rising living costs.\4\1598---------------------------------------------------------------------------1599    \4\ Veterans Education Success, ``Statement for the Record, House1600Committee on Veterans' Affairs Economic Opportunity Subcommittee1601Hearing, Getting Veterans to Work after COVID-19'' (Jul. 21, 2020),1602https://vetsedsuccess.org/our-sfr-for-july-21-hvac-economic-1603opportunity-subcommittee-hearing-getting-veterans-to-work-after-covid-160419/.1605---------------------------------------------------------------------------1606    We thank the Subcommittee for its attention to this critical issue1607and consideration of these recommendations. We will continue to provide1608feedback based on what we hear from the veterans we work with on an1609ongoing basis.16101611Conclusion16121613    Veterans Education Success sincerely appreciates the opportunity to1614provide our input and expertise on this topic. The higher education1615industry continues to evolve in these dynamic times, and we emphasize1616the importance of maintaining high standards. Student veterans,1617taxpayers, and Congress must expect the best outcomes from the use of1618hard-earned GI Bill benefits.1619    We look forward to working with you on these solutions and are1620grateful for the continued opportunities to collaborate further.16211622    Information Required by Rule XI, Clause 2(g)(4) of the House of1623   Representatives and the Rules of the House Committee on Veterans'1624                                Affairs16251626Pursuant to Rule XI, clause 2(g)(4) of the House of Representatives,1627Veterans Education Success has not received any Federal grants in1628Fiscal Year 2026, nor has it received any Federal grants in the two1629previous Fiscal Years.16301631 Information Required by the Rules of the House Committee on Veterans'1632   Affairs Regarding Foreign Government and Foreign Adversary Funding16331634    Pursuant to the Rules of the House Committee on Veterans Affairs,1635and consistent with the definitions set forth in P.L. 118-50, Division1636H, Sec.  2(g)(1), Veterans Education Success has not received any1637contracts, grants, or payments originating with a foreign government, a1638foreign adversary-controlled entity, or an entity or country of1639particular concern.16401641                   Prepared Statement of Abe Hamadeh16421643    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.16441645    Our government has a sacred obligation to be a faithful steward of1646every dollar it takes from the American people. Taxpayers work hard for1647that money, and they trust us not to squander it. When Washington1648breaks that trust, it is the job of this Committee to stand up and say1649so. Waste, fraud, and abuse are not abstractions. They are a betrayal.1650And of all the ways the Federal Government can betray the public trust,1651none is more offensive than wasting a single penny meant for the men1652and women who wore the uniform. A penny diverted from a disabled1653veteran is the worst kind of abuse there is.1654    That is why we are here today. The VR&E program exists for one1655reason: to help disabled veterans return to work and reclaim their1656independence. That is a promise America made, and it is a promise worth1657keeping. But this Committee has uncovered purchases inside this program1658that are flat-out indefensible. $15,500 for a single massage chair.1659$50,000 in fish hatchery supplies... for ONE veteran. $23,827 on bounce1660houses. A $266,000 laptop order. And here is the real kicker: 1891661individual plans exceeding $100,000 apiece, with no meaningful1662oversight of the contracts being written. A program on pace to hit $4.71663billion by Fiscal Year 2027 cannot be run like a slush fund, and a 451664percent re-entry rate after [QUOTE] ``successful'' completion is not1665success--it is a revolving door. Arizona veterans and the taxpayers1666footing the bill deserve better. It's time someone minds the store.16671668                                 [all]