“Oversight of the U.S. Postal Service: The Financial Future Under Postmaster General Steiner”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                 OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE:5                       THE FINANCIAL FUTURE UNDER6                       POSTMASTER GENERAL STEINER78=======================================================================910                                HEARING1112                               before the1314                 SUBCOMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS1516                                 of the1718              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM1920                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2122                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2324                             SECOND SESSION25                               __________2627                             MARCH 17, 202628                               __________2930                           Serial No. 119-6031                               __________3233Printed for the use of the Committee on Oversight and Government Reform3435                [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3637    Available on: govinfo.gov, oversight.house.gov or docs.house.gov38                                ______3940                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE414263-306 PDF                 WASHINGTON : 20264344              COMMITTEE ON OVERSIGHT AND GOVERNMENT REFORM4546                    JAMES COMER, Kentucky, Chairman4748Jim Jordan, Ohio                     Robert Garcia, California, Ranking49Mike Turner, Ohio                      Minority Member50Paul Gosar, Arizona                  Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of51Virginia Foxx, North Carolina          Columbia52Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin            Stephen F. Lynch, Massachusetts53Michael Cloud, Texas                 Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois54Gary Palmer, Alabama                 Ro Khanna, California55Clay Higgins, Louisiana              Kweisi Mfume, Maryland56Pete Sessions, Texas                 Shontel Brown, Ohio57Andy Biggs, Arizona                  Melanie Stansbury, New Mexico58Nancy Mace, South Carolina           Maxwell Frost, Florida59Pat Fallon, Texas                    Summer Lee, Pennsylvania60Byron Donalds, Florida               Greg Casar, Texas61Scott Perry, Pennsylvania            Jasmine Crockett, Texas62William Timmons, South Carolina      Emily Randall, Washington63Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Suhas Subramanyam, Virginia64Lauren Boebert, Colorado             Yassamin Ansari, Arizona65Anna Paulina Luna, Florida           Wesley Bell, Missouri66Nick Langworthy, New York            Lateefah Simon, California67Eric Burlison, Missouri              Dave Min, California68Elijah Crane, Arizona                Ayanna Pressley, Massachusetts69Brian Jack, Georgia                  Rashida Tlaib, Michigan70John McGuire, Virginia71Brandon Gill, Texas72Vacancy7374                                 ------7576                       Mark Marin, Staff Director77                   James Rust, Deputy Staff Director78                     Ryan Giachetti, Chief Counsel79                     Luke Moll, Research Assistant80                      Bill Womack, Senior Advisor81         Mallory Cogar, Director of Operations and Chief Clerk8283                      Contact Number: 202-225-50748485                Robert Edmonson, Minority Staff Director86                      Contact Number: 202-225-50518788                                 ------8990                 Subcommittee on Government Operations9192                     Pete Sessions, Texas, Chairman9394Virginia Foxx, North Carolina        Kweisi Mfume, Maryland, Ranking95Gary Palmer, Alabama                   Member96Tim Burchett, Tennessee              Eleanor Holmes Norton, District of97Brian Jack, Georgia                    Columbia98Brandon Gill, Texas                  Maxwell Frost, Florida99                                     Emily Randall, Washington100101                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S102103                              ----------104105                           OPENING STATEMENTS106107                                                                   Page108109Hon. Pete Sessions, U.S. Representative, Chairman................     1110111Hon. Kweisi Mfume, U.S. Representative, Ranking Member...........     2112113                               WITNESSES114115The Honorable David Steiner, Postmaster General, U.S. Postal116  Service117Oral Statement...................................................     6118119Mr. David Marroni, Director, Physical Infrastructure, U.S.120  Government Accountability Office121Oral Statement...................................................     8122123Written opening statements and bios are available on the U.S.124  House of Representatives Document Repository at:125  docs.house.gov.126127                           INDEX OF DOCUMENTS128129  * Letter from Alliance of Nonprofit Mailers; submitted by Rep.130  Mfume.131132  * Letter from American Postal Workers Union; submitted by Rep.133  Mfume.134135  * Article, Reuters, ``US Postal Service to Ask Congress for136  Urgent Reforms To Survive `Beyond Next Year' ''; submitted by137  Rep. Sessions.138139  * Letter from Coalition to Protect America's Small Sellers;140  submitted by Rep. Sessions.141142  * Caucus Letter re Census; submitted by Rep. Walkinshaw.143144  * Report, Commerce OIG, ``Evaluation of Methodology Census145  Bureau Used to Select Test Sites for 2026 Census Test'';146  submitted by Rep. Walkinshaw.147148The documents listed above are available at: docs.house.gov.149150                          ADDITIONAL DOCUMENTS151152  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by153  Rep. Foxx.154155  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by156  Rep. Timmons.157158  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by159  Rep. Jack.160161  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by162  Rep. Mfume.163164  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by165  Rep. Frost.166167  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by168  Rep. Bell.169170  * Questions for the Record: Hon. David Steiner; submitted by171  Rep. Walkinshaw.172173These documents were submitted after the hearing, and may be174  available upon request.175176                 OVERSIGHT OF THE U.S. POSTAL SERVICE:177                       THE FINANCIAL FUTURE UNDER178                       POSTMASTER GENERAL STEINER179180                              ----------181182                        TUESDAY, MARCH 17, 2026183184                     U.S. House of Representatives185186              Committee on Oversight and Government Reform187188                 Subcommittee on Government Operations189190                                                   Washington, D.C.191192    The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:02 p.m., in193room HVC-210, U.S. Capitol Visitor Center, Hon. Pete Sessions194[Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding.195    Present: Representatives Sessions, Foxx, Palmer, Burchett,196Jack, Gill, Mfume, Norton, Frost, and Randall.197    Also present: Representatives Walkinshaw, Tlaib, and198Budzinski.199200          OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN PETE SESSIONS201                   REPRESENTATIVE FROM TEXAS202203    Mr. Sessions. Good afternoon. The Subcommittee on204Government Operations will come to order, and I would like to205welcome everyone to this important hearing today.206    Without objection, the Chair may declare a recess at any207time.208    And I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening209statement.210    Welcome to today's hearing regarding the Postal Service's211financial future.212    The Postal Service is charged with delivering mail to every213address in the Nation six days a week. This mandate is one that214brings with it huge costs that no private company is required215to deal with; it is on the Post Office.216    For each year, the Postal Service loses billions of217dollars, and now 12 months--and now we know that in 12 months218they will run out of cash.219    And so, we have been engaging, both Mr. Mfume and I and220this Subcommittee, with the Postmaster General for quite some221time about the meaning of that and how we might address those222issues.223    The Postmaster--the last Postmaster, Louis DeJoy, launched224his ``Delivering for America'' (DFA) plan, which was designed225to revive the Postal Service, and unfortunately those226expectations were not reached.227    Mr. Steiner now has taken that new role as our new228Postmaster General--congratulations, and thank you for being229here, Mr. Steiner--a role that is very focused on taking full230advantage of the last-mile capacity to grow revenue.231    Raising revenue, cutting costs, and utilizing the232capacities and capabilities of private industry, we believe,233will be the path forward. Understanding which aspects of the234``Delivering for America'' plan remain and which have been235stopped is a key path to that as we move forward.236    Without proper transparency and overwrite, Congress will be237unable to see whether further action is necessary, and that is238why we are also here today.239    And with the Postal Service's request for an increase in240borrowing authority from the Treasury, Congress needs to have241confidence not only that they will be able to pay it back but242that they are on the right road to achieve financial security.243    For Congress to consider this request, the Postal Service244must also prove that they have exhausted their options already.245And this is a part of the regular interaction that takes place246between this Subcommittee, as well as our staff, and the247Postmaster General and his staff, as they work through the248needs of understanding, the ideas, and where they meet with249revenue objectives.250    Like so many actions that are available to the Postal251Service, they need to look at them and understand what those252ramifications mean. And while we have been in dialog over253those, some of those have taken place, and we look forward to254today to hearing about those outcomes and answers.255    So, I am delighted to be here today. I think Mr. Mfume and256I both wake up, as Mr. Steiner does, at 3 o'clock some mornings257with this on our mind. But I would also say that many of our258other Members do that also; as well, the huge industry that259surrounds this. It is a very important, competitive260marketplace. It is a very important part of the American261economy and the vibrancy of this country.262    But we also come at this, as Members of Congress, from our263opportunity to serve people back home who want and need the264Postal Service to be viable but to be cost-effective also.265    And so, all of these things come to a point today, another266day where we are able to have the Postmaster General. And I am267delighted that he is here.268    I would like to yield now the time to the gentleman--the269distinguished gentleman, my good friend, and a gentleman who, I270think, he and I both share many of the same ideas not only271about America's bright future but about our responsibility and272oversight.273    The distinguished gentleman from Maryland is recognized.274275        OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER KWEISI MFUME276                  REPRESENTATIVE FROM MARYLAND277278    Mr. Mfume. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and279thank you for those kind and gracious remarks. I am glad that280we are here together one more time and here to discuss what we281consider and many out there who are watching us consider to be282a vital issue.283    I want to welcome also the Postmaster General, Mr.284Steiner--good to see you again--and Mr. Marroni. I hope that we285can have a productive conversation today on how to put the286Postal Service back on the right track for delivering for the287American people.288    As we all know, for more than 250 years our Postal Service289has performed an indispensable service to this country and its290citizens. Through its Universal Service Obligation, the Postal291Service knits together communities, it powers businesses, and292bridges geographic and economic and cultural divides. Americans293in every part of this country rely upon and really deserve294prompt, reliable, and efficient mail services.295    I have unfortunately been alarmed over the last 15 months296to see, in many respects, efforts to politicize the process as297we know it. President Trump unfortunately has threatened to do298everything from merging the Postal Service with the Department299of Commerce to firing an entire Board of Governors. And former300Postmaster General DeJoy left his position prematurely last301year under pressure from the White House after he refused to302grant DOGE officials access to Postal Service systems.303    So, moving forward, I would urge you, Mr. Postmaster304General, to continue defending against any threat that is305brought up that would in somehow or another undercut the306independence of the Postal Service.307    And many of my colleagues have also watched with a great308concern in recent years as the financial condition has309deteriorated and service standards, in the eyes of some people,310have fallen.311    The last thing that we want is a privatized system. And I312would hope that every time we meet those efforts by those who313argue that privatization is the way to go that we are steadfast314and firm in resisting that.315    Putting the Postal Service back on a financial and secure316footing is key. And since July 2021, First-Class Mail costs317have increased 41 percent, while delivery standards were318lengthened from two to five days to, now, three--well, two to319three days to, now, three to five days. So, that means that320Americans have to pay higher prices for a service that is not321as good as it was.322    Last year, Postmaster General Steiner, you met with Members323of this Subcommittee to share your plans for stabilizing the324Postal Service's finances. We thank you for that. Since then,325however, the Postal Service has continued, unfortunately, to326lose money at an alarming rate while performance has continued327to suffer.328    In Fiscal Year 2025, the Postal Service suffered a net loss329of $9 billion--that has been well-reported; we are all familiar330with that figure--with a further $1.3-billion loss in the first331quarter of this year alone.332    The Postal Service is approaching a liquidity crisis.333Indeed, without significant reforms, it will not have enough334cash on hand to meet its required payments as early as 2027.335    And so, for the good of all Americans who rely on the336Postal Service for critical mail--medicine, ballots, et337cetera--we cannot allow that to happen, and the Postal Service338obviously needs to cut costs and increase revenue. I appreciate339the Postmaster General's effort to do so over the last year or340so, but this is not an easy matter at all. It is a hell of a341juggling act, to say the very, very least.342    So, I want to make sure that we, in this Committee, and343those who are watching this who are concerned about the Postal344Service find a way to realize a couple of things:345    In addition to cutting cost and increasing revenue, there346are, indeed, morale issues that have to be confronted also.347Because some people grew up in the mail service believing it to348be one way and look at it today and whether or not--figure out349whether or not they have a role in it.350    Most concerningly, the President has continued baseless351attacks, I think, on the legitimacy of the democratic process,352threatening to deprive--and I am going somewhere with this--353millions of Americans by doing away with or eliminating mail-in354ballots and punishing states that refuse to comply.355    And that is why Chairman Sessions, myself, other Members of356this Committee on both sides of the aisle introduced the357bipartisan Vote by Mail Tracking Act, which would also358standardize UPS tracking barcodes to every ballot that is359mailed in, giving voters real-time visibility into whether or360not their ballot has been received and/or processed.361    And because we all agree, I believe, that the vote and the362ability to vote is a sacred American right, any effort to363abridge that right goes against virtually everything that we364stand for as a Nation.365    So, moving forward, I have every confidence, Mr. Postmaster366General, that you and the workforce that you have assembled and367the one that you have inherited will all work in this election368year to ensure that every ballot is delivered and every vote is369counted.370    And I want to take the time to recognize the incredible371work of the postal workforce that the Chairman alluded to372earlier. They continue to do for the American people a great373service, and they do it in a way that they do not complain.374    We all remember what happened in the last election season,375when they were faced with the insurmountable task, as some376thought at the time, to be able to sort the mail and deliver377the mail and guarantee the mail, and yet they did that--and,378only weeks after that, ran into an avalanche of different379challenges posed by the overwhelming load of holiday mail, and380they did that back-to-back.381    Regrettably, however, letter carriers across this country382are increasingly the subjects of violence by criminals. We have383spoken about this before. We all share this concern. Criminals384target locked mailboxes that are only accessible to the United385States Public [sic] Service. I have seen postal workers beaten386and stabbed and left to fend for their own while help comes up.387We have seen the videos all over YouTube on that.388    So, no Postal Service worker should fear for their safety389at work, and that is why I have pushed for the implementation390of the Postal Service's joint Project Safe Delivery initiative.391I know it sounds like a lot, but it does a lot, and it is392designed to do that, as we try to provide a way to make sure393that there is safety that goes with this job and all of the394attendant positions and industries that are part of it.395    Now, one final thing, and then I am going to yield back to396the Chairman, who is very, very generous with his time.397    We are in a situation where we cannot lose the Postal398Service as we know it. We all agree on that, I think. The399question becomes, how do we find a way to fight back against400those efforts and those persons that do not necessarily believe401it?402    And it is an all-hands-on-deck kind of an issue, where,403whether you are in the field, whether you are in the building,404whether you are at headquarters, or whether you are doing405something else related to the mail, this means all of us sort406of--and, by the way, whether it means you are sitting on one of407these committees of oversight--it means that all of us have to408find a way to put aside any differences and to recognize that,409if we do not all go forward, we will all go backwards.410    So, it has been a pleasure working with this Chairman, who411shares many of my ideas and I share many of his on this. We412have tried to approach this as a bipartisan effort and have413left out, to the extent we can, anything that sometimes creeps414in as partisan. Because, at the end of the day, it is the415service and the people who deserve the service, more than416anything else, that we are all assembled here for.417    So, I thank you again for your generosity of time, Mr.418Chairman, and for working together on this issue, as we have419for years now--I never thought I would say we have been doing420it for years, but we have been--and I yield back my time.421    Mr. Sessions. I thank the gentleman, Mr. Mfume, for his422conversation.423    I believe that I will take it succinctly down to the point424that he and I overwhelmingly agree with, and that is: we have425to keep the issues directly in front of us. We have to work on426them, we have to understand them, we have to deal with them.427    And I could not have a better partner to do that with than428you, sir.429    Mr. Mfume. Thank you.430    Mr. Sessions. Although, I will say, over time, you look431better and I look older.432    So, without objection, we are going to welcome our young433Chairman, James Comer, who is here, the Chairman of the full434Committee.435    We also welcome Congressman Timmons from South Carolina,436Congresswoman Boebert from Colorado, Congressman Walkinshaw of437Virginia, Congresswoman Tlaib of Michigan, Congresswoman438Budzinski of Illinois, and Congressman Bell of Missouri, all--I439am sorry, I am supposed to say ``Missour-ee.'' I used to live440in ``Missour-ah,'' but they like to call it ``Missour-ee.''441They are all waived on the Subcommittee for the purpose of442questioning the witnesses at today's Subcommittee hearing.443    So, thank you very much.444    We now would move to the reason why we are here, and I am445pleased to welcome our witnesses for today.446    Mr. Steiner is the Postmaster General and Chief Executive447Officer of the United States Postal Service, having held this448position since July 2025. Prior to this, he was the CEO of449Waste Management and on the Board of Directors of FedEx.450    Our second witness today is Mr. Marroni. He is Director of451Physical Infrastructure at the Government Accounting [sic]452Office, the GAO, and is expert in many areas, and he will soon453prove his worthiness today. He is an expert in the Postal454Service and Federal real property management.455    So, I look forward to both of you not only being here for456your testimony but answering the questions.457    I would ask that both of you now stand for you to be sworn458in before this Subcommittee.459    Pursuant to Committee Rule 9(g), the witnesses will please460raise their hand, which they have done. And their right hand is461raised, and I will ask the question.462    Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you463are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing464but the truth, so help you God?465    [Chorus of ayes.]466    Mr. Sessions. Let the record reflect that both witnesses467have answered in the affirmative.468    Thank you very much, gentlemen.469    I would now like for you to know that we normally follow470this 5-minute rule, but what I am interested today--and I have471informed the gentlewoman, the Chairman [sic] of the Rules472Committee; she will take the time that she needs. You have473drawn a lot of people who will come today. Not everybody is474here right now, but you have drawn this. And I am interested475that us, Members and you, are given an opportunity to fully vet476your answer and to be given that time, and if you exceed that,477I will let you know.478    So, I now would recognize the gentleman, the Postmaster479General of the United States Postal Service, the gentleman, Mr.480Steiner, for his opening statement.481482                STATEMENT OF HON. DAVID STEINER483            POSTMASTER GENERAL, U.S. POSTAL SERVICE484485    Mr. Steiner. Thank you so much. Good afternoon, Chairman486Sessions, Ranking Member Mfume, Chairman Comer, and Members. I487appreciate the opportunity to discuss how the Postal Service is488at a critical juncture.489    At our current rate, we will be out of cash in less than 12490months. So, in about a year from now the Postal Service would491be unable to deliver the mail if we continue the status quo.492    So, how did we get here, and how do we solve the problem?493    We got here because of the drastic reduction in the use of494the mail. From historic peak volume of 213 billion pieces per495year to today, at 109 billion pieces per year, we have lost496over 104 billion pieces per year in our system.497    For perspective, if all of that lost volume was paid at the498current price of a stamp, which is 78 cents, that is about $81499billion of lost revenue. No company could weather that much500revenue loss.501    So, it is not hard to see how we got here. I like to say502that we got thrown overboard and into the water, but instead of503tossing us a life jacket, we were thrown an anchor.504    So, what does that anchor look like, and why is it weighing505us down?506    First, we pay an unfair share of Civil Service Retirement507System (CSRS) benefits, which cost us about $3 billion a year.508    Second, we cannot borrow more than $15 billion. The $15-509billion limit was established decades ago. If you applied510inflation or based it on revenue, that limit should be $30511billion to $40 billion.512    Third, we can only invest our retirement in Treasury notes.513If we were able to invest conservatively, we would have an514additional $800 billion in retirement benefits.515    Fourth, we are mandated by law to deliver to every address,516more than 170 million of them, six days a week. This leads to51771 percent of our delivery routes being financially underwater.518If we are expected to deliver six days a week to every519location, someone needs to pay for that.520    Fifth, we are not allowed to manage our own workers'521compensation claims. That costs us anywhere from $400 million522to $800 million per year.523    Next, we are regulated like a monopoly but we no longer524exist as one. In fact, we are regulated worse than a monopoly,525because even a monopoly is allowed to make money. Our regulator526causes us to lose billions annually.527    Just recently, they passed an order that, by their own528estimate, could lose us nearly a billion dollars a year.529Clearly, they are not following their mandate to make the530Postal Service financially viable.531    And there are other parts to the anchor. Transporting cargo532to remote parts of the United States costs us about $150533million. Keeping post offices open and not being allowed to534consider losses as a reason to replace them with alternative535means is another $840 million. And the list goes on.536    All those costly inequities amass to an incredibly537burdensome anchor that plagues our trajectory, and we should538have a discussion about all of them. But in order to survive539beyond the next year, we need to increase our borrowing540capacity so that we do not run out of cash.541    Despite all of this, we are proud of our universal service542mission, and we do everything possible to work through the543restrictions to deliver mail and packages that are so depended544upon by Americans.545    And we are also not standing by as we sink under the weight546of the anchor. We are taking steps to fight our way back above547water.548    On pricing, we need higher prices on both our package and549mail products. At 78 cents, the U.S. first-class stamp is the550lowest in the industrialized world. Compare it to France, at551almost $3, and England, at $2.50.552    And the longest distance those letters have to travel is553about 600 miles--smaller than the State of Texas. We deliver554from the tip of Puerto Rico to the tip of Alaska for 78 cents.555That is a distance of 5,000 miles. So, we sell the stamp at556less than half the cost to travel eight times farther.557    If we were to change the stamp price to 90 to 95 cents,558which is still less than half of the cost of foreign posts,559that would largely solve our controllable loss, and the stamp560would still be the lowest in the industrialized world by a lot.561    And on the cost side, the Postal Service has undertaken a562transformation of our network and operating practices to reduce563costs. We know that our execution should have been much better564and that we have not achieved all the savings that we initially565projected, but we can do more. We will continue to reduce costs566wherever we can, and I have asked our team to develop a plan to567further reduce costs.568    So, I am here to tell America that we can do anything you569want. We have been doing exactly that for over 250 years. If570you want the same number of delivery days and post offices, we571can do that--but someone has to pay for it. If you want to have572a discussion about reducing services, we can do that too. But573there is one thing we cannot do, and that is the status quo.574    And we do not have a lot of time. One easy action,575increasing our borrowing authority, buys us time--time that we576can use to best determine what the Postal Service should do to577best serve the American public.578    We stand ready to continue serving all Americans. We just579ask that you take away the anchors and let us operate like a580truly independent agency, free from requirements that weigh us581down, or that you compensate us for the cost of those anchors.582If we can do either of those, I can promise unparalleled583service for the next 250 years.584    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.585    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much, General.586    Mr. Marroni, welcome. We are delighted that you are here.587You are recognized for your opening statement.588589                 STATEMENT OF MR. DAVID MARRONI590               DIRECTOR, PHYSICAL INFRASTRUCTURE591             U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE592593    Mr. Marroni. Thank you, Chairman Sessions, Ranking Member594Mfume, and Members of the Subcommittee. I am pleased to be here595today to discuss the future of the United States Postal596Service.597    GAO has been making the case for more than 15 years that598USPS' finances are a high-risk issue in need of substantial599transformation. Rising costs and declining mail volumes have600made USPS' existing business model unsustainable. As a result,601it has accumulated billions of dollars in net losses, as its602debt and unfunded liabilities have continued to grow.603    We are now at a critical moment, with the Postmaster604General stating that USPS could run out of cash as early as605next year. Urgent action is needed to get ahead of any near-606term cash crisis while also putting USPS on a sustainable,607long-term path. Without action, there could be substantial608consequences for American households and businesses that rely609on USPS' services.610    In short, it is time for Congress to fix USPS' outdated611business model. This will require making difficult choices with612significant trade-offs. There are no easy solutions. However,613it is better to make those choices now rather than wait until614crisis hits.615    To be clear, USPS and Congress have taken significant616actions in the past five years. USPS has implemented a wide-617ranging ten year plan with the aim of fixing its finances, and618Congress has passed major postal legislation to provide619financial relief.620    However, those actions have not been enough. While USPS has621been able to increase its revenue and cut some costs, its622overall expenses have grown at a faster rate while its service623performance has declined.624    This pattern is not sustainable. There is a fundamental625tension between the level of services that Congress expects626USPS to provide and the revenue that USPS can reasonably be627expected to generate. Something has to change.628    For its part, USPS needs to take additional actions within629its own authority to try and improve its financial situation.630This includes considering changes to its current ten year plan631and identifying ways to increase its revenues while tackling632cost growth.633    As it does so, USPS should develop long-term financial634projections that will help communicate its outlook and progress635to Congress and identify actions to help put it on a636financially viable path.637    That said, it is highly unlikely that USPS will be able to638fix its poor financial condition on its own. Congress will need639to act.640    Indeed, Congress may need to provide some short-term641financial relief to help USPS avoid running out of cash. At the642same time, it is essential that Congress also address the long-643term issues with USPS' business model.644    If those underlying issues are not addressed now, USPS will645likely continue to struggle financially and its service646performance may decline further. Indeed, within five years,647USPS will be responsible for an additional $6 billion a year in648retiree healthcare costs on top of other expenses that are649likely to continue to grow.650    To fix USPS' business model for the long term, Congress651will need to decide on the level of Postal Service the Nation652requires and determine a balanced approach to funding those653services.654    In conclusion, USPS has been struggling financially for655years and is now approaching a crisis point. It is imperative656that USPS and Congress act with urgency to both address the657near-term cash crisis as well as fix USPS' business model for658the long term.659    There are difficult choices ahead, but those choices need660to be made now to put USPS on a sustainable financial path. A661financially viable USPS will best be able to provide high-662quality service to the American people.663    Mr. Chairman, that concludes my opening statement. I will664be happy to answer any questions.665    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.666    Obviously, your insight from both of you will be available667to this Subcommittee, and I appreciate that.668    I would move first, does the distinguished gentleman, the669Chairman of the Committee, wish time?670    The gentleman, Mr. Comer.671    Mr. Comer. I am just going to ask questions whenever----672    Mr. Sessions. Okay. Then it sounds like the gentleman is673going to be here for a little bit. I would move to the674distinguished gentlewoman--oh, you do want to go now?675    Mr. Comer. Well, I thought you meant a statement.676    Mr. Sessions. No.677    Mr. Comer. I am sorry. I apologize.678    Mr. Sessions. For time.679    Mr. Comer. And, Mr. Chairman, thank you and the Ranking680Member for always having quality meetings.681    Mr. Postmaster General, welcome. I have three questions I682am going to try to get in, in my 5 minutes.683    I want to start with a report of the Office of Inspector684General regarding waste in the Postal Service USPS Ship685program, a topic that is of significant concern to this686Committee.687    The OIG found that the Postal Service has spent over $1.5688billion developing this Ship program, and it is something that689the private sector already has, the private sector already690offers.691    The program wasted billions. The OIG recommended ending it.692Your Chief Financial Officer agreed to end it. But it has not693ended.694    First, do you agree that the USPS should not spend billions695recreating programs that the private sector already offers at a696fraction of the cost?697    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I mean, that is a great question. You698know, from our perspective, we want to give the customer the699best experience, and, generally, I would say, giving the700customer the best experience is dealing directly with our701customers. But we have looked at situations where we would have702others between us and our customers to do that type of703technology work.704    We are actually looking at it right now----705    Mr. Comer. But--and I apologize for interrupting, but I706have limited time.707    So, will you or will you not commit to ending this program708immediately? I mean, that is part of what we are all concerned709about, at least on this side of the aisle, is the losses. We710want to protect----711    Mr. Steiner. Of course.712    Mr. Comer [continuing]. The Postal Service, but we have got713to make some business decisions.714    Mr. Steiner. No doubt about it. And I will tell you, Mr.715Chairman, that we have not made a final decision on that. But I716appreciate the question, and we will make sure to get you a717final decision on that posthaste.718    Mr. Comer. Well, let us talk about the Postal Service719Reform Act. I worked very closely when I was Ranking Member720with then-Chairman [sic] Maloney, and that was a true721bipartisan bill, because there is bipartisan support for the722Postal Service.723    One of the things that we expected when we gave the Postal724Service some money to stabilize the books--everything that you725are talking about today we did five years ago. What cost-726cutting measures has the USPS implemented since the Postal727Service Reform Act passed and became law?728    Mr. Steiner. Sure. As you are well aware, you know, we729transformed the network. We basically went to a typical hub-730and-spoke network, something that has been around for hundreds731of years, been used by every logistics company since 1955.732    Going to that network--so we reduced transportation costs,733we reduced number of times that we move boxes--that has----734    Mr. Comer. Did that reduce costs?735    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. That has reduced costs by about736$2.1 billion, $2.2 billion.737    Mr. Comer. Well, according to----738    Mr. Steiner. Now, remember, our original projection was739$3.6, so we are not there yet.740    Mr. Comer. Based on the numbers, it looks to me like nearly74180 percent of the U.S. Postal Service's costs are labor, which742is the case with just about every government agency. The743biggest expense in your entire budget is personnel.744    And most Federal agencies today have hiring freezes. Why745would that not be something you would be looking at to reduce746costs instead of asking Congress for a bailout?747    Mr. Steiner. Oh, we are absolutely looking at that.748    Now, remember, there are two pieces to our network. There749are folks that actually deliver the mail. And, you know, you do750not want to do a hiring freeze there, because if we do that,751then we will not deliver mail.752    From a management perspective, you know, we have not753increased the number of our employees dramatically, but, as you754know, we have brought in the----755    Mr. Comer. But they have increased, and every other756government agency is decreasing the----757    Mr. Steiner. Well, actually----758    Mr. Comer [continuing]. Number of employees----759    Mr. Steiner. Actually----760    Mr. Comer [continuing]. Just like at most private-sector761roles.762    Mr. Steiner. Yes, actually, in the last four years, we have763about 30,000, 35,000 fewer employees. And we are moving toward764more of those employees being pre-career rather than career.765    There are two ways we can really save money here. That is766changing our mix of career and non-career more toward non-767career.768    Mr. Comer. You are talking about part-time and full-time,769right?770    Mr. Steiner. Correct. Basically.771    And the other is overtime, both regular overtime, penalty772overtime. You know, those are $100 million to $150 million for773every percentage point you move them. So that is where we are774focused at.775    Mr. Comer. What about----776    Mr. Steiner. But you are absolutely right, we have to look777at everything. We cannot look at just one piece.778    Mr. Comer. And, look, we support the postal workers. My779grandmother delivered the mail. She spent 27 years as a mail780carrier in Red Boiling Springs, Tennessee. I support the Post781Office. It is very popular in my district. But people are782frustrated with the Post Office. We all have horror stories783from the Postal Service.784    But what is frustrating to me and, I think, many Members on785this Committee is that it seems like we are trying to do more786in the Postal Service in-house instead of privatizing. Even787before the Postal Reform Act passed a few years ago, you788privatized a lot of the logistics and things like that that it789appears now the Postal Service is trying to do itself.790    And it is hard for me to believe, as much trouble as the791Postal Service has at delivering the mail on time efficiently,792that anyone would believe the Postal Service, run by the793government, can operate cheaper than private companies that794have been contracted with the Postal Service for years.795    And we are--or, I will speak for myself--I am frustrated796that a lot of private companies that have been doing business797with the Postal Service for years have been cut out in the last798year or two.799    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I mean, I am not sure which part of the800network you are referring to. We did--the only thing that we801have really in-sourced in the last year is our local802transportation network, and we have started to in-source that.803    I will tell you, anytime I can do something better,804cheaper, we are going to do it. And that is one area----805    Mr. Comer. It is hard for me to believe you are doing it806cheaper from the Postal Service. You have done that, and you807are asking for more money. It is just hard to believe. Maybe it808is true, but it is hard for me to believe, being in Congress 9-8091/2 years.810    Mr. Steiner. Well, if you believe our accountants, it is811true. There is about----812    Mr. Comer. I do not know. If they work for the government,813I will have to think about that, but.814    Mr. Steiner. There is about $44 million that we have saved815by in-sourcing that.816    But, even more importantly, it helps service. So, when we817use third parties, we have to call them, it takes them time to818get there. You know, sometimes they will show, sometimes they819will not. When we have our own folks onsite with the trucks,820they can move immediately. So, what we get is better service at821a cheaper cost.822    Now, that is not to say that there is not plenty that we do823not do well. But that is one thing we are doing pretty well.824    Mr. Comer. Mr. Chairman, my time has expired. I yield back.825    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.826    The gentleman, Mr. Mfume, is recognized.827    Mr. Mfume. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, again.828    Mr. Postmaster General, I took some notes on what you were829saying, and I have a couple of observations, and maybe you can830kind of point me in the direction where you think you should be831going.832    Aside from that, there is an old saying that says, ``The833hurrier I go, the behinder I get.'' And we have been rushing,834through this Committee, for the last several years,835emphatically trying to find a way to avoid the crisis that is836in front of us now. And we look up, and behinder we are.837    So, your points, if I have them correctly, was that you do838not have the ability to manage your worker compensation plans.839Is that correct?840    Mr. Steiner. That is one of them, yes.841    Mr. Mfume. That you have lost $81 billion in real-time over842an accumulated number of years as a result of a reduction in843the volume of mail in the United States. Is that correct?844    Mr. Steiner. Well, we lost 104 billion pieces. I was just845using the 78-cent stamp for illustrative purposes.846    Mr. Mfume. Okay. And----847    Mr. Steiner. But, yes, that would be----848    Mr. Mfume [continuing]. The other point you were making is849that, unlike other places, you are required to transport to850remote places across the United States. Is that correct?851    Mr. Steiner. That is correct.852    Mr. Mfume. And you said that the 78-cent stamp is the853lowest out of all industrialized countries and that it travels854with fewer miles for it to be taken advantage of or deliver, I855should say, the mail. Is that correct?856    Mr. Steiner. That is correct.857    Mr. Mfume. This is a situation that Mr. Marroni mentioned858earlier, about the GAO strongly recommending, aside from859congressional assistance in terms of money, that the Postal860Service do everything that it can within its power to drive861back the costs and to get out of the situation we are in.862    Mr. Marroni, is that correct?863    Mr. Marroni. Yes, that is correct.864    Mr. Mfume. And what would some of those things be?865    Mr. Marroni. So, there are ways to get compensation under866control. That is the major area of cost growth. There would be867continue to find ways to get costs out of transportation, out868of the network process.869    There are steps that USPS has been taking to get those870costs under control, but you have the fundamental issue of871volume is declining while the amount of places the USPS has to872deliver are increasing. So, there is a fundamental disconnect873there that is driving up costs.874    Mr. Mfume. And I am sure Benjamin--well, we will not call875his name here today, because I am sure he is probably spinning876in his grave looking at this. But the first Postmaster General877could not anticipate FedEx, Amazon, UPS, but you are faced with878those as a competing force.879    Can you take a quick minute and tell us whether or not you880have any ability to control those costs--or losses, I should881say?882    Mr. Steiner. In what regard?883    Mr. Mfume. Well, what are you doing with your competition,884who clearly wants to do all that it can to take away your885business?886    Mr. Steiner. Yes. A great question.887    Look, the reality is, until the recent changes to the888network, we did not have a network that could even compete with889FedEx and UPS and Amazon. It just could not compete. And so,890what we have designed now is a network that can compete, but it891competes at the lower level.892    So, just to give you an example, our average weight of our893package is about 1 to 1.2 pounds. FedEx, UPS, they are closer894five pounds. And as you move up in weight, you move up in895value, and so you move up in profitability.896    So, our network was designed for lower-weight packages. We897need to move that up. We need to go after those higher-value898packages. But we also need to continue to get those lower-value899packages.900    And, then, in that lower-value package market, what you901have seen is a dramatic change in how that market is being902served. What do I mean by that? The gig economy. So, you have903got very-low-cost providers, coming from foreign countries,904being subsidized by foreign governments----905    Mr. Mfume. Okay.906    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Coming in and selling907transportation at below cost so that they can----908    Mr. Mfume. I got it. I am going to have to reclaim my time.909It is very limited. And maybe you will get a chance to respond910to another Member's question on that subject. But let me just911go back to the point I initially made that Mr. Marroni said.912    Short of everything that is being proposed as stopgap913measures, that UPS should be doing everything it can under its914authority to reduce costs. Can you tell us what that is? I want915to follow up on the Chairman's question on that. And,916specifically, tell us how those costs have been reduced.917    Mr. Postmaster?918    Mr. Steiner. Oh, I am sorry. I thought you were talking to919the other David.920    So, you know, obviously, we put together a network that921reduces number of trips, reduces transportation costs, reduces922fuel costs. I mean, as I said, it is a hub-and-spoke network.923It has been proven to work since it was invented in 1955 by924Delta Airlines. Every major logistics company uses it.925    But there is a difference between building a network and926operating a network. And we have built the network. We are927close to done building the network. We have yet to fully really928learn how to operate the network. And that is where the savings929start to come, is when you learn how to operate the network.930    What you have seen is that the pace of savings has931increased and the pace of service has----932    Mr. Mfume. Okay.933    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Gotten better.934    Mr. Mfume. Thank you, sir. My time has expired, though.935    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.936    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.937    The distinguished gentlewoman, Chairwoman of the Rules938Committee, Ms. Foxx, is recognized.939    Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.940    I thank our witnesses for being here.941    And I want to say that I particularly join Mr. Mfume and942you, Mr. Chairman, in thanking the local postal workers for943their work.944    I am a lifelong letter-writer and always use the Post945Office, but I am very concerned with the caliber of service946that we are getting and with the fact that the Post Office947continues to come to us for more money.948    I mailed my husband a valentine a week before Valentine's949Day; he still has not received it. People in my office know950people who have sent out wedding invitations, mailed in plenty951of time; people have not received them a month later.952    This is unacceptable, Mr. Postmaster General--absolutely953unacceptable. If you want people to stop not using the Post954Office, you want them to continue to use the Post Office, then955they have to get the kind of service that they deserve and have956had in the past.957    Now, we were told the ``Delivering for America'' plan was a958longtime strategy to steady Postal Service finances, improve959operations, and protect the future of the mail system, but the960USPS losses continue, productivity has declined, Americans get961repeated rate increases, slower services.962    I was a big part of the Postal Service Reform Act, also, in9632022.964    So, given what is going on, the very negative things that965are happening, what evidence suggests the current plan is966working--I heard what you just said--and why should Congress967expect different results if the DFA plan continues?968    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I could not agree with you more on the969service issue. We absolutely have to do a better job with what970we call the ``tail of the mail''--the wedding invitation that971shows up late, the Valentine's Day card that does not get there972on time.973    You know, this is an unbelievably complicated network. Just974to give you perspective, FedEx and UPS both deliver well under975ten billion packages a year--well under ten billion. We deliver976110 billion pieces per year. And so, this network is so much977more sophisticated than those networks because of mail, and so978there are hundreds of pinch points where there can be problems.979    It goes back to what I said earlier. You can build a980network, but you have got to learn how to operate the network.981And I will tell you, we are not great at operating the network.982    We have put Doug Tulino in charge of that, making sure that983all three of our pieces that do delivery are joined together984and working together, and you have started to see progress. You985have started to see some very good progress in service. I am--986--987    Ms. Foxx. So----988    Mr. Steiner. I am not going to sit here and tell you that989we are there yet.990    Ms. Foxx. So, can we expect modifications to the plan and991better service?992    Mr. Marroni said that you have controllable costs, but you993did not give us any specifics. We know that if you could reduce994controllable costs by roughly two percent per year, you would995put the Postal Service on a path to break even.996    Given that possibility, what specific steps is USPS taking997to reduce controllable costs?998    Mr. Steiner. Well, we have got to look at controllable999costs everywhere.1000    So, we have talked about it in the network.1001    You have got fuel costs. Of course, you are going to see1002those disappear as we have seen the price of fuel go up.1003    You have got labor costs. You have seen our work-hours come1004down by over 50 million work-hours. Now we need to make sure1005that those work-hours are straight-time hours, not overtime1006hours.1007    And we need to make sure that our complement moves more1008toward pre-career than career. We still have a lot of room to1009grow there. So, there is a lot of dollars to be saved right1010there.1011    Ms. Foxx. I want to----1012    Mr. Steiner. The rest of the money is going to come by us1013learning how to operate the network better.1014    But let me make it very, very, very, very clear: we are not1015going to save our way out of the hole that we are in. There1016is--you know, I know that the prior plan said break even in10172023. Not gonna happen. Did not happen, and I do not expect to1018see it happen anytime soon on the current path that we are on.1019    Ms. Foxx. I want----1020    Mr. Steiner. Why is that? Because----1021    Ms. Foxx. I would like----1022    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Inflation keeps eating up our1023savings.1024    Ms. Foxx. I would like to follow up on a question from1025Chairman Comer also about duplicative in-sourcing done.1026    I think many of us share the concern that there is a way to1027contract out a lot of services but you keep bringing those1028things back inside, and it is costing more because of the1029overtime and the number of people that you have there working.1030    So, please say a little bit more about what you can do not1031to have this in-sourcing going on.1032    Mr. Steiner. Yes. As far as I know, there is only one thing1033we in-sourced, and, again, that is local transportation. And1034those costs, I said, down $44 million. That is 17 percent.1035There is a 17-percent savings in that cost of local1036transportation. Not only is there 17-percent savings, but we1037get better service. I think that is a win-win.1038    I am not going to tell you that is going to solve the1039problem. Forty-four million dollars does not get you there. But1040that is one instance where I would tell you we made the right1041business decision.1042    Ms. Foxx. Mr. Chairman, thank you for your indulgence. I1043yield back.1044    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. I appreciate the1045gentlewoman taking time. I know that these are important issues1046to her, and she catches me on a regular basis, and I appreciate1047her taking time here.1048    The gentlewoman, Ms. Norton, is recognized.1049    Ms. Norton. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1050    I want to begin by thanking Postal Service employees for1051their dedication and hard work.1052    Postal General, disgruntled residents have brought to my1053attention that their local post offices are often closed during1054normal business hours. That is unacceptable. I request that you1055examine this matter and report back to me within 30 days on how1056you will fix it.1057    At a time when more and more Americans are struggling to1058cover the costs of basic goods and services, increased Postal1059Service prices are especially hard to accept.1060    Millions of people across the country rely on the Postal1061Service to pay their bills, file their taxes, run their1062businesses, and fully participate in our society.1063    Since July 2021, First-Class Mail rates have increased by1064nearly 42 percent. At the same time, the delivery standards1065have been lengthened from two to three days to three to five1066days.1067    Postal General, can you comment--can you commit that the1068costs of the Postal Service's financial situation will not be1069disproportionately borne by customers via increased prices and1070lower delivery standards?1071    Mr. Steiner. Yes, you know, look, we are still by far the1072lowest-priced stamp in the industrialized world. Every1073industrialized country has dealt with this issue, and they have1074had to triple, quadruple prices.1075    You talked about the 42-percent price increase. That is1076because we were at such a low base relative to the rest of the1077world. Six of the last 12 price increases have been under two1078percent.1079    And so, you know, I am a firm believer that the market1080should set the rate, and the market is not setting the rate1081right now.1082    And the other thing I would say is, look, we are all users1083of the Postal Service. If we raise the stamp by a price of 151084cents, someone that uses 100 stamps a year, that costs them a1085dollar and a half. If you are a super-user and you used 1,0001086stamps a year, it costs you $150. Is that worth saving the1087Postal Service?1088    Ms. Norton. Mr. Marroni, what changes can be made to Postal1089Service operations to put the Postal Service back to a secure1090financial footing without continuing to see higher prices and1091lower service levels?1092    Mr. Marroni. So, in terms of that model, I do not think it1093is possible that USPS, on its own, without some sort of revenue1094increases and cost growth, can get to a sustainable path.1095    I do think that congressional action is going to be needed,1096based on our work, to address either: first, what is the level1097of service that the American people need? Is it the same? Less?1098More? And then figuring out, how is that going to be funded?1099You could reduce services and USPS could take actions--cut1100costs, increase revenues--to try and meet that level of1101service, or you could reduce service levels, or something in1102between.1103    But I do not think, based on where things are right now,1104USPS, on its own, could--it can take actions to reduce costs,1105it can take actions to increase revenue, but I do not think it1106can get there on its own.1107    Ms. Norton. The Postal Service must not only be accessible1108and reliable, its services must be also affordable. The1109American people need an affordable Postal Service.1110    And I yield back.1111    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.1112    I would also like to take just a second and thank you for1113your service. This is not a point that we will be at as we will1114be later in the year, but I want to thank you--both Mr. Mfume--1115appreciate your not only insistence to come to every one of our1116Subcommittee hearings but to genuinely participate in that. And1117I appreciate you very much, and I want to thank you.1118    Ms. Norton. Thank you.1119    Mr. Sessions. The distinguished gentleman, Mr. Palmer from1120Alabama, you are recognized, sir.1121    Mr. Palmer. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1122    And thanks, Mr. Postmaster General, Mr. Marroni, for being1123here.1124    There is a report published by the Envelope Manufacturers1125Association. It is an economic study. And what they find is1126that your revenues have remained relatively stable at roughly1127$78 billion to $79 billion annually, but the controllable costs1128have continued to rise, increasing by billions of dollars over1129the past several years.1130    And I am just--they make a point that if you could produce1131controllable costs by just two percent annually, you would1132eliminate your operating losses and reach a break-even by 2030.1133That basically, when this report was done, would have been1134about five years.1135    How do you respond to that?1136    Mr. Steiner. I will tell you, I have been a part of two of1137the largest logistics companies in the world for the last 20-1138some-odd years, Waste Management and FedEx. Neither of them1139have been able to do that.1140    You know, everyone thinks, ``Oh, it is easy. It is very1141easy. Just get productivity.'' The problem is, you have got1142expenses rising. You have got to give employees pay increases.1143Fuel goes up----1144    Mr. Palmer. I am going to interrupt you right there,1145because part of your increase in expenses has to do with the1146mandate to purchase next-generation delivery vehicles, which is1147a euphemism for electric vehicles. And the ones that you are--1148the Post Office is buying from Oshkosh were, like, $20,000 more1149than your conventional vehicles. The ones you purchased from1150Ford were $10,000.1151    And then you have got--I know the Federal Government has1152allocated $3 billion in the so-called Inflation Reduction Act1153for this, but your overall cost is going to be close to $101154billion.1155    So how do you--when you are doing things like this that--I1156cannot make an economic case for this.1157    Mr. Steiner. Well, look, you are going to hear me say this1158repeatedly and over and over again. If I am in the private1159sector, I have got options. If I have 71 percent of my routes1160that are losing money, guess what I can do? Cut routes. If I1161have 80 percent of my stores that are losing money, you know1162what I can do? I can cut routes. I can raise prices. I can do1163all the things that I can do in the public [sic] sector.1164    We do not have options. We have mandates.1165    Mr. Palmer. Well, here is where you could help us out to1166help you. I would like for you to provide to the Committee--the1167Subcommittee, and we will provide it to the full Committee--a1168breakdown of where your revenues come from. Is it personal1169mail? Business mail? You know, package delivery?1170    Mr. Steiner. Sure.1171    Mr. Palmer. Advertising? Junk mail? You know, business/1172political----1173    Mr. Steiner. ``Marketing mail,'' please.1174    Mr. Palmer. Well----1175    Mr. Steiner. I used to make that same mistake. I do not1176make it anymore. I call it ``revenue.''1177    Mr. Palmer. Okay. Well, but, also, where is your cost, tied1178into this? You know, you have got a revenue stream from1179different types of delivery, but you have also got a cost.1180    So, I think that would be helpful, and I think the GAO----1181    Mr. Steiner. Of course. Of course.1182    Mr. Palmer [continuing]. Might be able to help----1183    Mr. Steiner. But let us----1184    Mr. Palmer [continuing]. Come up with that as well.1185    But, getting back to this, I know there is a lot of angst1186or anger about delivery. I mean, my wife ordered a necklace,1187and it went to--we live in Birmingham--it went to Birmingham,1188then it went to someplace in Florida, and then it went to1189Orlando, and then it came back to--what should have been three1190days was ten days. And then she did not like the necklace,1191which is another issue.1192    But what we are trying to do is get you where you can1193operate but--and I am going to talk with the Chairman of the1194full Committee about what legislation we might be able to1195introduce that will help deal with some of these mandates. For1196instance, the electric vehicle issues, but also the management1197of the pension funds, these other things.1198    Rather than come in and give us these things, give us some1199ideas on, legislatively, how we can fix this. Because I am not1200interested in beating up the Post Office; I am interested in1201fixing it. And if it cannot be fixed, then we need to, Mr.1202Chairman, we need to look at other options.1203    Mr. Steiner. Yes. Would love to have that conversation.1204    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I appreciate the opportunity to1205raise these questions. I yield back.1206    Mr. Sessions. I appreciate the gentleman.1207    I know we are all pressed on votes and a lot of things1208going on here, but, in fact, that when I consume my time, you1209will hear where we think we have been doing this and have1210committed ourselves to some other things. But the success of1211that rain dance has not been achieved because the Postmaster1212General has embarked on some things that he was hoping would1213alleviate some of these things or give him a longer-term1214answer, and they--that is still part of this discussion----1215    Mr. Palmer. May----1216    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. And part of why we are here1217today.1218    Yes, sir?1219    Mr. Palmer. Mr. Chairman, I want to make it clear that I1220would like for the Postmaster General's office to provide that1221breakdown of the revenues so that we can juxtapose those1222against where the costs are.1223    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. And I would respond back to the1224distinguished gentleman and tell him: We agree. Our working1225group is to get there. And last month we sat down with the1226Postmaster General and his financial team and did agree to do1227exactly that. And this was going to be the first breakout1228session since that time.1229    And I appreciate the gentleman, and we will be glad to1230share those with you.1231    Mr. Palmer. Thank you.1232    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir. Thank you very much.1233    Let us see. We now go to the--Mr. Frost.1234    Mr. Frost. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.1235    Mr. Sessions. You are recognized.1236    Mr. Frost. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1237    Thank you, Mr. Marroni and Postmaster General, for being1238here.1239    And, also, Postmaster General, thank you for taking the1240time to sit with us in that briefing a few months ago.1241    A couple topics I want to ask about. The first one is1242something I am a bit concerned about.1243    So, President Trump has announced his plans to require1244postal workers to question residents on their citizenship1245status as part of a summer pilot test for the 2030 census.1246    An accurate census is the only way we can ensure fair and1247equal representation. It helps determine how congressional1248districts are drawn and makes sure that Federal funds reach1249communities.1250    Postmaster General, how does the Postal Service plan to1251address the gap in expertise if postal workers are expected to1252perform the duties of census workers?1253    Mr. Steiner. Yes. It is--as you probably read, that is why1254we are doing two pilots, very small pilots. I think the total1255cost is around $200,000, probably a little less than that. In1256one of the pilots, our folks will actually take the oath and1257be--and do the census. In the other, they will do it as part of1258their postal duties.1259    And it comes from the fact that everything that, in my1260conversations with the Secretary of Commerce, everything that1261he has talked about with respect to the census is, how do we do1262it better, cheaper?1263    And he said, the best way to do it better, cheaper, is to1264get people to go that they trust, that are there every day,1265that, you know, they probably know, so they are going to open1266the door, so they do not have to go back five and six times.1267    And so, it is strictly a pilot to see if we can do it1268faster, better, cheaper. And if so, that will be a service to1269the American public.1270    Again, it is a big, big, big undertaking, and so that is1271why we are doing the two pilots, to see if we can make it work.1272    Mr. Frost. And how will you ensure service delivery is not1273impacted if Postal Service--if postal workers have to balance1274their mail delivery duties with the administration of the1275census?1276    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I mean, look, that is why we are doing1277the pilots. You know, actually, it would be good for the1278carriers, because they can make a little bit of overtime. A lot1279of our carriers like to earn the overtime. But that is why we1280are doing it, so that we can figure out how do we best make it1281work for our employees and for the census.1282    Again, a long way before we actually get it done. That is1283why we are doing the pilots. Hopefully we will be able to do it1284faster, better, cheaper.1285    Mr. Frost. Thank you.1286    Also, the Postal Service is implementing a new1287transportation plan--this is the RTO, Regional Transportation1288Optimization initiative--which may impact 72 percent of postal1289offices.1290    The Postal Service Office of the Inspector General has1291projected that this plan may slow mail delivery. People rely on1292USPS to get mail quickly--medications, their ballots, bills, et1293cetera.1294    Are you confident that you can ensure that the RTO1295initiative will not slow mail delivery?1296    Mr. Steiner. Absolutely certain, because, actually, RTO1297does not affect delivery. It only affects collection. So, on1298delivery, there has been absolutely no change. The only changes1299that RTO brings is on collection.1300    Mr. Frost. Okay. And then--okay. Gotcha.1301    And then the last thing I want to talk about is the fact1302that the USPS is not a business opportunity. It provides1303essential services, like helping rural Americans get their1304prescriptions. Private carriers charge extra to deliver to1305rural areas, even if they deliver there at all.1306    You were kind of talking about this, the options that1307private corporations may have that we do not have. And it is a1308good thing we do not have those options, because, no matter1309what, our postal workers are going to deliver the mail no1310matter where you live. And that is part of what separates this1311service that we all believe in from a business.1312    Rural areas are already losing their hospitals and1313pharmacies, and it is more important than ever that rural1314Americans can get their medication from the USPS.1315    Mr. Marroni, if the Postal Service was privatized, how1316would this impact people in my district or across the country?1317How could that impact their day-to-day experience with the1318USPS?1319    Mr. Marroni. So, there are definitely tradeoffs with1320privatization. It is possible they might be able to reduce1321costs and increase revenues faster, but then it also means they1322might not serve certain routes that are unprofitable, they1323might close postal locations that are not profitable either, to1324get to profitability.1325    Mr. Frost. What are the kind of--what type of Americans,1326what type of people could expect maybe a loss in service if it1327was privatized?1328    Mr. Marroni. So, there is a higher percentage of rural and1329small community locations that are unprofitable. So, there are1330some urban areas as well that have unprofitable locations, but1331the bulk is going to be rural and small, so that is where it1332would disproportionately fall.1333    Mr. Frost. Okay.1334    Thank you. I yield back.1335    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.1336    The gentleman yields back his time.1337    We are now on votes. There are four votes that are being1338called. I have advised the gentleman, Mr. Gill, he will be1339first one when we come back.1340    And there will be these four votes that will take probably1341a good bit of time. We have figured this one out before. Do not1342know if a rule is in the mix. But let us advise the Members1343that we will come back 10 minutes after the last vote.1344    I would like to have Members come back. This is a very1345important hearing. We have distinguished Members who have taken1346their time to be here this afternoon.1347    Mr. Gill, you will be the first one when we return.1348    And I would say to the witnesses and the people here, thank1349you for taking time. I am sorry, this is the part of our1350business that we just have to go through.1351    So, the Committee will now be in recess.1352    [Recess.]1353    Mr. Sessions. The Subcommittee will come to order.1354    And thank you very much. I apologize for the delay.1355    We now will go back with Members' opportunities for their1356questions.1357    The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Gill, is recognized.1358    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this1359hearing.1360    And thank you to Postmaster General Steiner and to Mr.1361Marroni for taking the time to be here. We certainly really1362appreciate it.1363    Mr. Steiner, I want to begin with a few questions for you.1364    Do you know how many of the drivers who haul mail for USPS1365are using non-domiciled Commercial Driver's License (CDL)s?1366    Mr. Steiner. To my knowledge, at this point, none.1367    Mr. Gill. Do you know if it is a lot or just a few?1368    Mr. Steiner. None.1369    Mr. Gill. So, what I am--from what I am hearing from mail1370processing centers, there have been quite a few. In fact, I1371have heard from several large ones who have said something to1372the extent about half of the drivers who are coming to pick up1373mail are--appear to be non-domiciled, that they typically do1374not even speak English. I have heard that over half of them do1375not speak English. There have been suggestions that many of1376them are perhaps illegal aliens.1377    Are you familiar with that?1378    Mr. Steiner. I am not sure where that information comes1379from, but with our----1380    Mr. Gill. It is coming from major mail----1381    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I----1382    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Processing facilities.1383    Mr. Steiner. That probably would not surprise me. But my1384guess is that----1385    Mr. Gill. So, it would not surprise you that there are a1386lot of drivers who are non-domiciled?1387    Mr. Steiner. No, it would not surprise me that that is1388where the information is coming from. Because, if you look at1389the information from our United States Postal Inspection1390Service, which everybody that hauls for us has to go through a1391check with them, I think they have probably got better1392information.1393    Mr. Gill. And what is that information?1394    Mr. Steiner. That every driver that drives for us, whether1395they are an employee or whether they are part of a third-party1396contractor, has to go through and make sure that they are a1397domiciled CDL holder.1398    Mr. Gill. Is that being enforced? Because I have been told1399by multiple different parties that that rule is not, in fact,1400being enforced in any meaningful way.1401    Mr. Steiner. I have been told by our Postal Service that it1402is.1403    Mr. Gill. Okay. Well, I have got--this is from a1404whistleblower, Postal whistleblower. ``Here are [multiple] non-1405domicile licenses from one hour of check-ins at one USPS1406facility!'' This was from March 2026 that has been recorded.1407    Mr. Steiner. Yes. If you would send that on to us, I will1408have our Postal Inspection Service look at that and find out1409what happened.1410    Mr. Gill. We have also got recording from Pete Routsolias,1411who is the VP of Transportation Strategy at USPS, who has said,1412quote, ``We did not understand the magnitude of how many people1413are using non-domiciled CDLs,'' suggesting that they attempted1414to stop this practice but realized that there are too many1415drivers who are using these non-domiciled CDLs, so, it was not,1416I guess, practicable to enforce that particular ruling.1417    Are you familiar with that at all?1418    Mr. Steiner. Not familiar at all, no.1419    Mr. Gill. So, it is your testimony that there are no CDL1420drivers--or, no mail carriers, excuse me, who are non-domiciled1421CDL drivers?1422    Mr. Steiner. No, my testimony is that I am not aware of the1423conversation that you are referencing.1424    Mr. Gill. Okay.1425    What are you guys doing to ensure that there are no non-1426domiciled CDL drivers carrying our mail?1427    Mr. Steiner. Our Postal Inspection Service looks at1428everybody that drives----1429    Mr. Gill. How is--can you explain how that is being1430enforced?1431    Mr. Steiner. How do you mean, ``how is it being enforced''?1432    Mr. Gill. How are you ensuring that----1433    Mr. Steiner. We are requiring----1434    Mr. Gill [continuing]. None of the drivers are, in fact,1435non-domiciled CDLs?1436    Mr. Steiner. We require our third-party contractors----1437    Mr. Gill. But by what mechanism are you enforcing that,1438other than a, you know, theoretical requirement?1439    Mr. Steiner. You know, I do not know how you can do1440anything other than in-person, right? I mean, our folks are----1441    Mr. Gill. Are drivers required to use a Post badge?1442    Mr. Steiner. As far as I know, they are, yes.1443    Mr. Gill. I have heard from multiple, multiple, again, mail1444processing facilities who are telling me that none of that is1445being enforced in any meaningful way. And it seems, based on--1446--1447    Mr. Steiner. If you will bring me that information, we will1448make sure----1449    Mr. Gill. I would be happy----1450    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. We will make sure it stops.1451    Mr. Gill. I would be happy to do that. Because I do not1452think that that makes our roads any safer.1453    Mr. Steiner. No, you are absolutely right. And, look, we1454all agree that safety is number one. But let us put it in1455perspective. You have 2,000 deaths every year from gig drivers1456driving.1457    Mr. Gill. Uh-huh.1458    Mr. Steiner. You have got other companies using them to1459deliver packages.1460    Mr. Gill. Uh-huh.1461    Mr. Steiner. Those folks are----1462    Mr. Gill. And USPS is outsourcing that as well.1463    Mr. Steiner. Not--we do not have any gig drivers for the1464United States Postal Service.1465    Mr. Gill. But the mail deliver--or, mail carriers, excuse1466me, are not necessarily USPS employees. Is that correct?1467    Mr. Steiner. That is not correct. They are.1468    Mr. Gill. They are all employees? You do not outsource any1469of that?1470    Mr. Steiner. We do not.1471    Mr. Gill. You do not outsource--so every single delivery1472truck that is carrying mail in the United States is an employee1473of USPS?1474    Mr. Steiner. That delivers to our customers? Absolutely.1475    Mr. Gill. Or that is transporting mail?1476    Mr. Steiner. Oh, no. Transporting mail is a whole different1477animal.1478    Mr. Gill. That is what I am talking about----1479    Mr. Steiner. We are talking about delivery.1480    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Here. I am talking about----1481    Mr. Steiner. I do not think----1482    Mr. Gill [continuing]. Transporting mail.1483    Mr. Steiner. I do not think gig drivers are transporting1484mail; they are transporting individual packages to customers.1485And there are 2,000 people dying every year----1486    Mr. Gill. That is what we are----1487    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Because they are going through1488the neighborhoods.1489    Mr. Gill. That is what we are concerned about.1490    Mr. Steiner. And so, look, put it in perspective. You are1491absolutely right, so let us put it in perspective. Two thousand1492people died because we had gig drivers that are probably1493unlicensed----1494    Mr. Gill. Uh-huh.1495    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. They are probably uninsured, they1496are untrained, and they are killing people--not on the1497highways; they are killing people in neighborhoods.1498    Go talk to homeowner associations and ask about the people1499that are driving through the neighborhood, speeding through the1500neighborhood, when their kids are playing, to deliver a small1501package that should be delivered by the United States Postal1502Service.1503    And so, I completely agree with you on the CDL issue.1504    Mr. Gill. Uh-huh.1505    Mr. Steiner. We have taken care of that. I would like to1506see us look at taking care of the----1507    Mr. Gill. Okay. Well, we will talk about that.1508    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Gig drivers that are driving1509through our neighborhoods.1510    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. General. Appreciate it.1511    Mr. Steiner. Thank you.1512    Mr. Sessions. Does the gentleman choose to yield back his1513time?1514    Mr. Gill. Yes.1515    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.1516    Thank you very much.1517    We will now move to the gentlewoman, Ms. Randall.1518    You are recognized.1519    Ms. Randall. Thank you so much, Mr. Chairman.1520    I represent the Olympic Peninsula in Washington State, and1521in my district, like, I am sure, many across the country, we1522have seen how the closure of a single post office can disrupt1523an entire community. Folks rely on USPS for service, for1524connection, for medication, for so much more.1525    Last summer, the Martin Luther King Jr. Post Office in1526Tacoma closed suddenly due to reported water damage. Since1527then, residents and small businesses that rely on dependable1528mail service have been concerned, left without clear answers1529about when it will reopen.1530    When the Tacoma City Council raised this issue with our1531office, we followed up with USPS and were told that the Postal1532Service was working with the landlord to assess the damage.1533    My understanding now, based on updates from the city and1534the property owner, is that the roof repairs have been1535completed, and the next step is mold mitigation, to be carried1536out by USPS. But, still, like, confusion, no clear timelines1537for reopening the facility.1538    For people who rely on the post office every day, it is1539more than just an inconvenience; it is an erosion of trust in a1540service that they rely on.1541    Now, to be clear, like, I want mold mitigation to happen in1542the building. I do not want employees to be working in a water-1543damaged and moldy space.1544    But, Mr. Steiner, when a postal facility closes due to1545damage, what timeline does USPS follow for assessing damage,1546initiating repair contracts, and completing repairs?1547    Mr. Steiner. Sure. You know, obviously, we will look into1548that specific situation.1549    But you will hear me say this a lot. We are not proud that1550some of our post offices look like third world stores. We are1551not proud that we have 40-year-old trucks going through1552neighborhoods. We are not proud that we cannot give every1553single one of our wonderful carriers a brand-new uniform. But1554we have to make tradeoffs. You know, we are running out of1555cash, and we have to make tradeoffs.1556    And so, every day, we need to make the determination, are1557we going to keep the cash to keep the mail being delivered, or1558are we going to go fix a post office or buy a new truck? It is1559why I am here today.1560    We would absolutely love to have pristine post offices1561throughout the United States. It is our face to our customers.1562We do not have the cash to do it. We would love to have brand-1563new trucks driving through the neighborhoods safely. We do not1564have the cash to do it.1565    And so, you know, we will look into that specific instance,1566obviously, and we will get you some timelines on it, but I1567think we do have to have that conversation of, where are the1568tradeoffs? Right? Where can we make those tradeoffs, at a time1569when we will be out of cash in less than 12 months?1570    Ms. Randall. Absolutely.1571    And I wonder--this might be one of the tradeoffs that you1572are contemplating--what percentage of USPS facilities are1573leased versus owned? And does a reliance on leased facilities1574make it harder to complete some of the maintenance and repairs1575that facilities may be facing?1576    Mr. Steiner. Yes. I think the number is, about 60 percent,1577a good portion, are leased rather than owned.1578    And it is--you know, as we look at--you know, I keep saying1579that everything is on the table. We have to look at those1580leases and see which ones we can keep, which ones we cannot.1581    You know, and when we talk about tradeoffs, I like to look1582for cost-free tradeoffs. So, to take the example of your post1583office, our rural communities and our smaller communities, some1584of them might not have an urgent-care facility or they might1585not have a bank. Can we co-locate with them and bring more than1586just the Postal Service to that community, bring an urgent1587care, bring a bank, bring the other needed things, so that we1588can get lower cost of rent and we can also bring other things1589to the community?1590    Those are the type of--you know, I love cost-free1591tradeoffs. Those are the kind of great cost-free tradeoffs that1592we can get. Would love to look at doing one in your community.1593    Ms. Randall. Absolutely. And I am really proud that our1594district office shares a building with a post office. It is a1595great way for folks to get all their business done when they1596come to visit us.1597    Now, the last thing I want to raise is the politicization1598of the Postal Service in the way that it is being used to1599attack the ability for our neighbors to vote by mail.1600    You know, my constituents have long relied on mail-in1601voting--you know, nearly two decades in Washington State. And1602with the continued attacks on mail-in voting, I think one of1603the things that is being undermined is the trust in the Postal1604Service.1605    And I am out of time, but I just wanted to raise that I1606am--our constituents are so grateful for the work of USPS to1607ensure that you get our ballots to us and then back to the1608auditor's office so that they can be counted. And preserving1609the ability for USPS to do that work is so important to the1610people of Washington State and Americans across the country.1611    So, thank you.1612    Mr. Steiner. Absolutely. Thank you.1613    Mr. Sessions. Does the gentlewoman yield back her time?1614    Ms. Randall. Yes. Thank you.1615    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back her time.1616    Thank you very much.1617    The gentleman from Tennessee, Mr. Burchett, you are1618recognized.1619    Mr. Burchett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1620    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.1621    Mr. Burchett. It is good to be here with you and the1622Ranking Member, who were both, I guess, around when they had1623the Pony Express. So, I guess y'all are bringing some real-1624world experience here.1625    Mr. Steiner. Both he and I knew Abraham Lincoln.1626    Mr. Burchett. That is good.1627    Well, Mr. Postmaster General, what is the most up-to-date1628assessment of when Postal Service will run out of money?1629    Mr. Steiner. Yes. A lot of it depends--you know, we have a1630lot of obligations that we fulfill to the U.S. Government, you1631know, for retirement and things like that, so a lot of it1632depends on those.1633    As you probably know, we have been defaulting on a number1634of those for a number of years. If we continue to make those1635payments, we are looking at probably October, November. If we1636stretch those out, we are looking at more like February.1637    Mr. Burchett. I agree with my colleagues about reducing1638controlled costs. What are you doing to raise revenue?1639    Mr. Steiner. Yes. You know, again, we need to--you have got1640two different types of revenue, right? You have got what we1641call the market-dominant side, what you would call mail and1642marketing mail, and then you have got the competitive side,1643which would be packages.1644    You know, on the market-dominant side, I think, you know,1645that has been going down five to seven percent compounded every1646year since probably we were born because of the internet and1647things like that.1648    But I keep saying, we cannot think that that is a given. We1649have got to try to reimagine the mail. I have started to talk1650to our customers about how we can reimagine it to stop that1651decline on the market-dominant side. That is something that we1652have to work with our customers through.1653    On the package side, there are only three things that1654matter when you are in the package business: speed,1655reliability, and cost. Speed, reliability, and cost.1656    We have always been competitive on cost. We have not been1657competitive on speed and reliability. This past peak, we1658actually became very competitive on speed and reliability. So,1659now we have something we can go to the market with, right? We1660can go to our customers, or potential customers, and say, ``We1661can do it just as well and cheaper than other companies can do1662it.''1663    And then the other thing I would say: oddly enough, this1664was shocking to me, we do not deliver all the packages for all1665the agencies of the U.S. Government. We are part of the U.S.1666Government. It is basically taking money from one pocket into1667the other pocket. Yet, we do not do business for most of the1668U.S. Government.1669    So, I want to talk about how we can get into all the1670various agencies in the Federal Government----1671    Mr. Burchett. I would like to talk to you about that at1672some point.1673    I do not want to run out of time, but I did want to--one1674quick thing.1675    With the rising postage rates, slower service standard,1676declining productivity, and request for additional1677congressional support, how do you justify the claim that the1678Postal Regulatory Commission oversight is the problem, given1679its role as the primary check on postal pricing and1680performance?1681    Mr. Steiner. Yes, it is one of the problems. I mean, you1682know, you heard me talk about, we have a lot of different1683mandates. But I will not show you any further than their last1684order. Their last order, by their own admission, transfers1685anywhere from $700 million to a billion dollars from us to1686mailers by not allowing us to raise prices.1687    Mr. Burchett. How much was that figure again?1688    Mr. Steiner. Seven hundred million to a billion.1689    Mr. Burchett. Okay.1690    Mr. Steiner. There are two pieces to it: they will not1691allow us to raise prices more than once, and they have1692basically changed the work-share rules, which are too1693complicated for here. But it is basically taking money from us,1694by their own admission, taking money from us and transferring1695it to mailers.1696    They say they do it to balance. You know what I asked them?1697``If we are balancing things, answer me one question: of all1698the companies that do business with us, how many of them are1699losing money?''1700    Mr. Burchett. Okay.1701    Mr. Steiner. The answer? Zero. They are all making money.1702We are the only one losing money. I am not sure how I see that1703as a balance.1704    Mr. Burchett. All right. I appreciate that. Could you have1705somebody come by my office, maybe, and talk to me about it? I1706do not want you to talk to the staff; I want you to come talk1707to me?1708    Mr. Steiner. I will come.1709    Mr. Burchett. All right?1710    Mr. Steiner. I will come talk to you personally.1711    Mr. Burchett. Well, that would be fine.1712    Mr. Steiner. I would love to do it.1713    Mr. Burchett. I appreciate that.1714    Also, I just wanted to pay a compliment. Those folks out1715there--we moved out to off, you would not know it--off Emery1716Road, but Maynardville Highway. Those folks out there, this1717little country-type area, they are wonderful. They are just1718wonderful. And they always--they take care of folks, and they1719holler at them, and they talk to them, and it is good. ``Holler1720at them,'' that is a positive thing in----1721    Mr. Steiner. Yes.1722    Mr. Burchett [continuing]. The South.1723    And I used to have a burgeoning eBay business and would go1724to the one on Weisgarber, and I can--some of the fondest1725memories I have with my daddy were, he was an old World War II1726veteran, and when Daddy would come in there, they would always1727pull him out a chair. And I would say, ``Daddy, you just watch1728my packages. I have got to run back out to the truck.'' Because1729sometimes I would--somebody would park a car in front of my1730house and I would sell it on eBay, the parts off of it, but--1731and Daddy would just sit there, and sometimes he would go to1732sleep. And they were--but the people there were just wonderful.1733    And I hope we do not lose that with the Post Office,1734because if you lost that, you lost me, brother, because----1735    Mr. Steiner. You are absolutely right.1736    Mr. Burchett [continuing]. Those folks are wonderful1737people.1738    Mr. Steiner. And, look, we could use an entrepreneur like1739you in the Post Office, if you are selling those used parts.1740    Mr. Burchett. You what? Say that again.1741    Mr. Steiner. We could use an entrepreneur like you in the1742Post Office----1743    Mr. Burchett. Well, I cannot----1744    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. From selling those used parts.1745    Mr. Burchett [continuing]. I cannot really do it much, as1746these ethics people get in my way, you know. If you want to do1747insider stock trading, go to Congress. If you want to sell1748something on eBay, you better get you an attorney if you are in1749Congress.1750    So, thank you, brother.1751    And thank you----1752    Mr. Steiner. Thank you.1753    Mr. Burchett [continuing]. Mr. Chairman, and thank you,1754Ranking Member, for always being a class act.1755    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.1756    Thank you very much.1757    By the way, Mr. Steiner, I think you will enjoy the 2-1/21758or 3 hours you spend with Mr. Burchett. He is a lot of fun and1759covers a lot of ground very quickly. So, I wholeheartedly1760encourage this endeavor between the two of you.1761    Thank you very much.1762    If you need help making that happen, Tim, let me know.1763    We now move to Ms. Budzinski.1764    Ms. Budzinski, you are recognized.1765    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you very much.1766    Mr. Sessions. Excuse me. I am sorry.1767    Ms. Budzinski. Oh. Yes.1768    Mr. Sessions. Ms. Tlaib. I am sorry. I----1769    Ms. Budzinski. Okay. Thank you.1770    Mr. Sessions [continuing]. Scratched through this. Wait1771till you turn 50.1772    Excuse me, Ms. Tlaib. You are on the Subcommittee, and you1773are recognized.1774    Ms. Tlaib. Yes. Thank you so much, Chairman.1775    Thank you to the Postmaster for being here.1776    I want to show you a picture. This is Nicholas John Acker.1777On November 8th, he was found dead at the USPS Detroit Network1778Distribution Center in Allen Park, Michigan. As you know, he1779was a postal worker. His body was found--it was trapped,1780actually, in a mail handling machine, and he had been dead for1781about six to eight hours before he was found. He checked into1782work at 11 a.m., and his body was not discovered until the1783following day at 12:30 p.m.1784    His death is an unspeakable tragedy for his family,1785including his fiancee--he had just recently got engaged--for1786his colleagues and fellow postal workers, and for the entire1787southeastern Michigan community.1788    His death is heartbreaking, and it was preventable,1789Postmaster General. Nicholas had previously voiced concerns1790about the facility's operations and safety practices to his1791fiancee.1792    What you should know is, those concerns were raised about1793safety measures and procedures at the facility and then how1794management there was pressuring staff to look for letters while1795the handling machine was still operating.1796    Are you aware of that?1797    Mr. Steiner. I am aware of the incident, yes.1798    Ms. Tlaib. Are you aware that they are asking workers to1799look for letters while the machine is operating?1800    Mr. Steiner. We are still waiting on the final report from1801Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) to1802understand what happened.1803    Ms. Tlaib. Since the death, a number of Nicholas's1804coworkers at the distribution center--it has gotten worse. The1805toxic work environment, dangerous culture there has created--1806USPS management at the facility has just--you know, just1807increased and gotten worse, prioritizing speed over safety.1808    It has, you know, been over four months since Nicholas's1809death, and Representative Dingell and I had written a letter1810directly to you on two occasions, demanding answers to get to1811the bottom of what happened to him and what USPS leadership is1812doing to prevent this from ever happening again.1813    You understand, he served our country. He did not die at1814war, he did not die--he literally died in his community,1815working for the Postal Service.1816    Now that you are here in person, perhaps you can give us1817some answers to it. Can you give me some information to tell1818his mom--by the way, both his parents, you do not understand1819how devastated they are. They did not expect to get that call,1820again, of him just showing up to work, and, again, even the1821circumstances around his death were pretty horrifying for his1822mother.1823    Would you at least be willing to come to Allen Park,1824Michigan, come tour this place, come visit it, come down, talk1825to the coworkers, tell his coworkers that you are working on1826making it much more safe for them to work in that space? Will1827you at least acknowledge you would be able to do that? Again,1828they deserve some acknowledgment from the Post General about1829what happened at their facility.1830    Mr. Steiner. Yes. Look, obviously, obviously, a horrific1831incident that, you know, my heart, the heart of the whole1832postal family goes out to him and his family.1833    But, you know, to me, safety is the most important thing we1834do. One incident is one incident too many. Anytime you lose1835someone, you have got to take it personal, and you have got to1836take it as a teachable moment, right?1837    I ran a company where we went--our safety numbers for, just1838for--went from 60 to 1, which is world-class. And it was not1839because one person took it; it is because everybody took it.1840    And I will be at that facility.1841    Ms. Tlaib. Please come down.1842    Mr. Steiner. Because we need to show that it starts at the1843top, right?1844    Ms. Tlaib. Absolutely.1845    Mr. Steiner. And any incident is too much of an incident.1846And if there is anything that we can do to make that a1847teachable moment to save someone else----1848    Ms. Tlaib. Listen, we have got to save----1849    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. In the Postal Service, we will1850absolutely do it.1851    Ms. Tlaib. I mean, to be trapped in the machine, you know?1852    Look, I know that nobody wanted this to happen to Nicholas,1853but I just feel like, you know, OSHA has not responded to any1854of our requests. It has been months, and I--you know, Chairman,1855please work with me in trying to get answers for his parents.1856It should not take this long to get answers to this1857investigation of what happened to Nicholas Acker, especially1858serving almost a decade in the military service. And for him to1859die, again, in a Postal Service machine, a sorting machine, of1860all things.1861    Again, his parents deserve answers, they deserve justice.1862And they do not want talking points, Postmaster General. They1863want to, one, make sure there is justice and accountability and1864make sure it does not happen to anyone else.1865    And, look, I am here to tell you, I hear a lot of the1866financial crisis that is facing the Postmaster. I have been1867talking about public banking in Postal Service, doing more in1868Postal Service. I am a big advocate for it, trust me. But this1869is what I have been focused on right now. Because when you hug1870a mother that lost her child like that, as a Member of1871Congress, I cannot give her answers until you do your job.1872    I yield.1873    Mr. Steiner. Understood.1874    Mr. Sessions. The gentlewoman yields back.1875    I want to say to the gentlewoman that I have talked to our1876staff and they were aware of it. It, as the General has stated,1877is under OSHA investigation. And Mr. Mfume and I will deal with1878this immediately and speed up not just a response but an answer1879from them. And I want to thank you for bringing that forward.1880    And, General, thank you for your care and concern.1881    There are a number of facts and factors about this which I1882am not able to speak about, nor you, to offer any insight into1883this, and I respect that. But I believe that his family is1884entitled to that answer, and Mr. Mfume and I will be involved1885in that.1886    And, General, you will see that we are working with you to1887encourage that, properly and professionally.1888    Mr. Steiner. Absolutely.1889    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much.1890    The gentleman from Georgia is now recognized, Mr. Jack.1891    Mr. Jack. Well, thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.1892    And I want to thank the Postmaster General for testifying1893before us. Another LSU graduate. It seems like you guys are1894taking over the U.S. Congress, but----1895    Mr. Steiner. I never thought I would get the chance to say1896``Geaux, Tigers'' in front of Congress.1897    Mr. Jack. But I wanted to just, first, thank you for your1898service and ask, broadly speaking, as one of the last1899questioners today: You outlined in your opening testimony the1900challenges you face as Postmaster General. Is there a version1901of USPS' future that does not require some form of1902congressional intervention in the coming years? And if so, what1903would that look like?1904    Mr. Steiner. You know, I do not think there is.1905    You know, I have done tons of strategic plans across a1906number of businesses, and I have never had a strategic plan1907where they say so many options are not available to you, right?1908You have losing routes; cannot cut them. You have losing post1909offices; cannot cut them. You have retirement benefits that1910only earn T-bill rates; you cannot invest it in stocks. You1911know, there are just so many, so many strings.1912    I tell people that this is like ``Gulliver's Travels.'' You1913know, Gulliver was the giant in the land of the small, and one1914small person could not take him down, but they put so many1915strings on him that they were able to hold down the giant1916Gulliver.1917    And that is what is happening here. It is not one string;1918it is the accumulation of all the strings. I think David spoke1919about them. It is the discussion we have to have--I keep coming1920back to: We can do whatever you want. We can absolutely do1921whatever you want. You want six days a week? You want all the1922post offices open? We can do it, but someone has got to pay for1923it, right?1924    When the Postal Service split in 1971, they actually put1925something in place that they called the postal service cost.1926And they said, we understand it is going to cost a lot of money1927for you to serve rural communities, so we are going to pay you1928for that. And that number then was $460 million. If you1929translate that to today's dollars, that is anywhere from $131930billion to $20 billion.1931    So, Congress in 1971 understood that they are going to have1932to pay for the rural--for taking care of all the rural places1933that lose money and the routes that lose money. They totally1934understood it.1935    You know, I would say that either we reduce the mandates1936that we have upon us on delivery days, all the different things1937that I have talked about in my remarks, or we acknowledge that1938there is a cost to, you know, back what they called then the1939public service cost, there is a cost to that that Congress is1940going to fund. You know, to me, it is six of one, half a dozen1941of another. We can do it either way.1942    But recognize that all the mandates that we have cost1943money. And that money precludes us--the business model1944precludes us from being profitable. And so, either we have to1945get it through ratepayers paying it or through an appropriation1946from Congress. We can do it either way. And glad to have those1947conversations.1948    Mr. Jack. Well, thank you for that.1949    I have got two local issues in my district I want to1950highlight. I know we have been working diligently with your1951team. I am curious, and if it necessitates further commentary1952or correspondence after this hearing, I welcome that.1953    But in Tyrone, Georgia, Fayette County, my home county,1954there was a post office that burned down in March 2023, well1955before your time. I want to congratulate you; in recent months,1956you were able to reopen at least the post-office-box element of1957that facility. But retail is still not operable.1958    Curious what y'all's protocols are if you have a natural1959disaster that affects a post office, and can we work together1960to try to reopen the retail as quickly as possible.1961    Mr. Steiner. Yes. We will certainly, certainly follow up1962with you on that.1963    Mr. Jack. And, last, Thomaston, Georgia, also in my1964district--you mentioned rural. You know, this is interesting,1965and I think it does affect some more rural post offices that1966were built before the 1960s, before Americans with Disabilities1967Act (ADA) came into effect. And we do have a lot of reports--1968and I want to commend the postal employees there. They are1969trying to help folks that are, you know, in need of getting up1970stairs, and they do not have ramps, to--they are trying to help1971them get into the post office. But we just--we hear recurring1972problems there.1973    Because the facility was built in the 30s--1930s, I should1974say--there has not been a lot of, I guess, you know, legal1975requirements for them to update their facilities. I am curious1976what y'all do with some those more rural post offices that do1977not have the ADA requirements but still service people that1978have ADA needs.1979    Mr. Steiner. Yes. Again, you know, we have to go back to1980that tradeoff. Do not know the specific details, but we will1981get back to you on it.1982    But, you know, it is interesting that you say that, when1983you talk about them helping people to get into the post office.1984For every time we have someone that did not get their birthday1985card on time, we have that great employee that gives that1986unbelievable customer service. It really is the face of the1987Postal Service.1988    That is what we can bring back if we figure out this1989business model. That is what we can bring back, I think,1990everywhere, is that unbelievable customer service that your1991folks experience, when they go out of their way to go out and1992help them into a post office where it might be hard to get into1993it.1994    Mr. Jack. Well, I appreciate you working with us on both of1995those.1996    Mr. Chairman, I may have some questions to submit for the1997record hereafter, but I deeply appreciate you convening this1998hearing. It is a very, very important hearing, and it is a big1999deal for us to be part of it. So, thank you.2000    Mr. Sessions. Thank you very much. We will look forward to2001not only getting your questions but also hearing back from2002them. And thank you very much.2003    The gentleman, Mr. Walkinshaw.2004    Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for2005suffering my presence again on this Subcommittee.2006    I have a couple of UC requests, if that is all right.2007    Mr. Sessions. Well, that--please, feel free to move for2008them.2009    Mr. Walkinshaw. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the2010record a March 5, 2026, letter signed by 66 Members of2011Congress, including 15 Senators and 51 Members of the House,2012urging the Department of Commerce to reverse course on a flawed20132026 census test.2014    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.2015    Mr. Walkinshaw. I ask unanimous consent to enter into the2016record a report released by the Department of Commerce2017Inspector General (IG) on March 16, 2026, evaluating the2018methodology employed by the Bureau for the upcoming 2026 test2019involving Postal Service workers.2020    It outlines the IG's concerns that the proposed approach2021could compromise readiness for the 2030 census.2022    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.2023    Mr. Walkinshaw. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.2024    Mr. Steiner, thank you for being with us today, and thank2025you for the conversation that we had and your open engagement2026with this Subcommittee.2027    For Congress to make informed decisions about how we can2028ensure the Postal Service's long-term stability, we need clear2029data on the proposals you put forward, where the Postal Service2030stands, and where it is headed.2031    Frankly, your predecessor, in my view, was sometimes2032hostile toward our role in congressional oversight, did not2033want to provide information we needed to be able to help the2034Postal Service.2035    Will you agree to provide Members of this Committee with2036five year financial projections showing how the reforms and2037changes you have outlined, including the continued2038implementation of ``Delivering for America,'' like including2039the Regional Transportation Optimization initiative, would2040affect the Service's financial position and service performance2041over five years?2042    Mr. Steiner. Yes. In fact, during the break, I was speaking2043with David about that, that----2044    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.2045    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. What I think we can put together.2046Because, you know, it is all the mandates that I talked about.2047We can put together multiple scenarios where you have different2048outcomes, right?2049    And so, if you assume, you know, the six or seven mandates2050that I have talked about--there are probably five or six other2051ones--we will make assumptions on which ones happen and which2052ones do not. And so, we will have multiple budgets for you, to2053say, ``If you want this one, we can go this direction. If you2054still want this mandate, we can go this direction.''2055    We can actually put it together for you that it will show2056the effect of all the different mandates that I have talked2057about and how that would affect the five year plan.2058    Mr. Walkinshaw. Because if we are going to build support2059for any of the proposals, including maybe the lower-hanging2060fruit like investing the retirement funds, we have got to be2061able to go to our colleagues and say, this is where we are2062headed in a positive----2063    Mr. Steiner. Exactly.2064    Mr. Walkinshaw [continuing]. Direction. Okay.2065    Mr. Steiner. Absolutely.2066    Mr. Walkinshaw. According to a recent IG report, the Postal2067Service spent roughly $860 million in remedies due to failing2068to comply with respective Collective Bargaining Agreement2069(CBA)s.2070    So, given the challenge the Postal Service has had in2071complying with its own CBAs that you all agreed to, you maybe2072will forgive my skepticism that you would be able to2073successfully take over and run the Federal Employees'2074Compensation Act and workers' comp programs, as you provided.2075    I am a little bit skeptical of that, given the challenging2076track record.2077    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I do not blame you for the skepticism.2078But the workers' comp would actually be managed by a third2079party. You know, we manage, obviously, the claims you are2080talking about; the workers' comp would actually be managed by a2081third party.2082    Mr. Walkinshaw. So, you would outsource that.2083    Mr. Steiner. Yes. I mean, basically every company in2084America outsources that.2085    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.2086    I want to go to one of the maybe low-hanging-fruit reforms.2087And you and I had a good conversation about the investment, and2088I had an ounce of skepticism, and you relieved me of my2089skepticism, I think, in our conversation.2090    Can you talk through, though--because, obviously, it is not2091as simple as saying you can invest the funds, right? There2092would have to be a structure in place to guide that, so2093especially the workers and retirees have a voice in how their2094money's being invested.2095    Mr. Steiner. Right.2096    Mr. Walkinshaw. What kind of structure do you envision to2097accomplish that?2098    Mr. Steiner. Yes, I think you would want to put--obviously,2099you would want to put a board of directors, if you will, in2100charge of that, really an investment committee. I think--I love2101the idea of having representatives, the employees, be part of2102that. I think that is a great idea. You know, the proposals I2103have seen would have, for example, the Secretary of the2104Treasury. You know, so you would have a broad-based,2105representative group to make those ultimate investment2106differences.2107    But then you could also have parameters to say, you know,2108you are not going to go out and invest in crypto. I mean, you2109could set parameters and say, here are your allowed2110investments, and make those rather conservative, right--because2111we do not want to be there out there gambling with our2112retirees' money--and then you get an oversight board with2113broad-based experience to manage that.2114    Mr. Walkinshaw. Okay.2115    Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.2116    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.2117    Mr. Walkinshaw, thank you very much.2118    I would now yield myself--oh, excuse me. We did promise you2119would move forward. So, Ms. Budzinski, you are now recognized.2120And thank you for taking time to be waived on to this.2121    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you for the opportunity, Mr. Chairman,2122and to Ranking Member Mfume, for this chance.2123    I do want to say, it is also great to meet and be with2124Postmaster General Steiner and Mr. Marroni.2125    Thank you both for being here.2126    In Fiscal Year 2025, the Postal Service lost about $92127billion. In the first quarter of Fiscal Year 2026, USPS lost an2128additional $1.4 billion.2129    Postmaster General Steiner, you have stated that you2130believe that the Postal Service is headed toward a financial2131crisis, and I do agree with you on that point. But you have2132also said that you want to continue to move forward with the2133``Delivering for America'' plan, which has really only worsened2134delivery for the past six years.2135    As we enter year six of the ``Delivering for America''2136plan, I do remain concerned that the Postal Service seems2137committed to pushing forward with the plan despite the steep2138declines in on-time delivery and slowed outgoing mail in rural2139areas, like the district that I represent in central and2140southern Illinois.2141    Just for example, in Fiscal Year 2019, the on-time delivery2142for 2-day First-Class Mail was 92 percent. Six years later--and2143this is in my district--it is down now to just 83 percent, with2144areas like downstate Illinois consistently seeing on-time2145delivery fall below 80 percent and even 70 percent at various2146points in 2024 and 2025.2147    I will argue, I think that is why I do believe that it is2148really important that we continue to have a strong Postal2149Regulatory Commission and an Inspector General, to ensure that2150we have oversight over the Postal Service and its2151implementation for ``Delivering for America.''2152    And I know, you know, yes, it is true that the Postal2153Service, as you have stated, must act in accordance with the2154Postal Regulatory Commission, but it ultimately does have much2155more flexibility for its competitive products or packages. And2156I do worry, just in talking about the Postal Regulatory2157Commission (PRC), is watering it down or eliminating it, given2158the fiscal situation of the USPS, that maybe perhaps it2159actually should have more authority, not less.2160    But with all of this in mind, I just want to say, I am very2161excited; we have started a bipartisan Postal Service Caucus.2162And we do look forward to working with you on all of these2163challenges.2164    One of my first questions for you, Postmaster General, is:2165in recent months, you have continued, as I stated, that you2166believe in continuing to move forward with the ``Delivering for2167America'' plan despite these declining delivery rates.2168    My question would be, are there indicators that you are2169looking at that would give you pause in the continued2170implementation of the ``Delivering for America'' plan or decide2171to perhaps suspend it?2172    Mr. Steiner. Yes, and, you know, I do want to clarify that,2173when I think of the ``Delivering for America'' plan, I am2174talking just about the network transformation piece----2175    Ms. Budzinski. Uh-huh.2176    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Right, which I said before, you2177know, is sort of the Logistics 101 hub-and-spoke system.2178    You know, what I do see is, you see service numbers2179improving. You see us pulling work-hours out--not fast enough,2180but you see us pulling work-hours out. So, you can see it. It2181moves slow, because the network is so big. You can absolutely2182see it. You see it in the service numbers. You saw it during2183peak. We were the most improved company----2184    Ms. Budzinski. Uh-huh.2185    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. In performance in peak of all the2186major competitive package companies.2187    But you can also see it when you look--you are right dead2188in the center of the heart of where our biggest problem is,2189right down the center of America, from Chicago to St. Louis to2190Memphis.2191    And I will tell you, I do not believe that that is a2192network problem. My understanding is it is a staffing problem,2193that it is hard to get employees to work in the plants where we2194need them to work. And, you know, we do not have a lot of2195flexibility to give bonuses to hire people or retention bonuses2196because of the way our union contracts work.2197    But that area, I can promise you----2198    Ms. Budzinski. Uh-huh.2199    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Is looked at by us, not just2200every week, every single day.2201    Ms. Budzinski. Okay.2202    Mr. Steiner. And the numbers are getting better.2203    Ms. Budzinski. Yes.2204    Mr. Steiner. They absolutely are not there yet.2205    Ms. Budzinski. Just since I can squeeze in one more2206question.2207    Mr. Steiner. Sure.2208    Ms. Budzinski. I would love to keep working with you on2209that. And I do have concerns around the consolidations and the2210RTO plan, and those are things that we can continue that2211conversation.2212    But my last question, Postmaster General: in regarding the2213Postal Service's recent hiring and the restructuring firm--2214hiring the restructuring firm Alvarez & Marsal, the Postal2215Service has said that they are going to use Alvarez & Marsal to2216identify ways to transform the Postal Service and address the2217fiscal shortfalls.2218    So, my question: should we be anticipating future2219reductions in force or more network changes if Alvarez & Marsal2220were to recommend that to your team?2221    Mr. Steiner. Yes, you know, look, what I have said is that2222we are in a crisis, and when you are in a crisis, everything2223has to be on the table.2224    Alvarez & Marsal is, you know, the leading restructuring2225firm in the world. And so, we wanted to bring in the best to2226show us what was possible.2227    We have not gotten that report, but once we get that2228report, we need to look at it and say, okay, what is it that we2229need to do in order to, you know, right the ship, in order to2230extend the period of time?2231    When you have less than 12 months of cash available, you2232have got to look at everything. And I wanted to bring in the2233best to help us look at it.2234    Ms. Budzinski. Okay. I look forward to working with you.2235Thank you.2236    Mr. Steiner. Thank you. And----2237    Ms. Budzinski. I yield back.2238    Mr. Steiner [continuing]. Glad to come meet with you in2239person to have discussion about those issues, because they are2240important.2241    Ms. Budzinski. Thank you.2242    Thank you. I yield back.2243    Mr. Sessions. Thanks very much.2244    The gentlewoman yields back her time.2245    I would now yield myself such time as I may consume.2246    I first wanted to ask unanimous consent to address and add2247into the record the Coalition to Protect America's Small2248Sellers' letter that has been provided to me; and, second, a2249letter dated March 16, ``U.S. Postal Service to Ask Congress2250for Urgent Reforms to Survive `Beyond Next Year.' ''2251    Without objection, we will enter those into the record.2252    The opportunity for us to be here together, publicly, with2253vendors, people who work for the Post Office, people who have2254oversight over the Post Office, people who want an opportunity2255for the Post Office to work and work well, Members of2256Congress--almost every single one of us have people that sing2257your praises and some that think otherwise. It is a hard2258business. You are everywhere.2259    I, too, have had a post office that burned down. I knew2260well the neighborhood that felt like it took a little bit2261longer than it should have, but it was accomplished. There were2262accommodations made.2263    Every single Member of Congress somehow does hear something2264about the Post Office. Sometimes--and I learned this in my2265prior life--sometimes when things are going so great you do not2266hear a lot.2267    The Post Office, however, is at a point that we all agree2268with--Mr. Mfume, you and I agree with, GAO agrees with--we are2269at a crucial point, not critical, we are at a crucial point2270where we now know more decisions need to be made with2271agreement--agreement between us, agreement between you. I think2272that certainly this article that I provided says exactly that,2273that there has to be not just consent given but agreement.2274    I would like to say that, during much of this period of2275time over the last year and some, that we have been given an2276opportunity to know each other, work with each other. I find2277you refreshing, I find you honest, and I think we can do2278business with you.2279    But it is going to take more than that. It is going to take2280Mr. Mfume and I to stand behind an organization that is going2281to have to make some decisions also. We are going to have to2282make decisions because this represents a huge part of not just2283enterprises across the United States but the best interests of2284people who are normal American citizens, who want, need, and2285expect a good Post Office--sound service, good price--to where2286we will continue to use it.2287    A few months ago, when you and I met, I told you that I had2288several goals. You told me pretty plainly, ``Congressman2289Sessions, we will do whatever you want to pay for.'' And I told2290you I did not want to raise the price of a stamp further. I2291told you that I believe that we have to look at this2292organization as something that we need to get close on, keep in2293front of us, and to have an idea about where we are going to go2294and how we are going to get there.2295    I met with our friends at the White House to find out what2296instructions they really provided you also, because that is2297important. When you go to offer a job to someone, you,2298generally speaking, would want to get some understanding of2299that--a commitment to that. I think it is easier when you get2300elected--when you take over a job than it is to serve in that2301job. And, certainly, a few months later you learn some things2302that you may not have known.2303    But the buck stops here now. And Mr. Mfume, Mr. Mfume and I2304are very open with each other. And I will say--I am not trying2305to be a tough guy--we are going to do this together, but I will2306do this.2307    And from our last meeting that we had over at your office,2308we had a determination that we were going to get closer. I told2309you at that time that I had a commitment from James Comer, who2310is the Chairman of the Committee, that he felt like that this2311is something that could not be passed on, that it does us no2312good to simply give you more money or agree to something that2313we know does not work.2314    I will fully admit to you that Mr. Womack, who is sitting2315beside me, our staff guru on the Post Office, has admitted to2316me and I have admitted to him that we need to dig in further.2317We need to dig in. We need to do this. I think that your team2318openly agreed to do this a month ago. No excuses, we need to do2319this. We need to do it rapidly, and we need to get right to the2320issues.2321    I think that it will require some give-and-take. We have2322generally been asking questions. We have generally been2323allowing you that opportunity to move forward with your plan. I2324think the newest indications that I have of knowing where we2325are, I think we are past that point now, and we will get to2326where we agree and disagree.2327    I am not responsible, I am not your boss; I am your2328oversight. But Mr. Mfume and I carry the torch about the result2329of what we are going to do from Congress to help. And I think2330that Mr. Mfume and I both have great confidence in the workers,2331the supervisors, the postmasters, the management of the2332organization, but we have to--we are going to have to make2333tough decisions.2334    So, in great fairness to you and your team, who I do have2335confidence in and who have been very gracious to not only Mr.2336Mfume and I, we are going to get to where we then say, ``Oh,2337yeah? Prove it.'' ``Oh, yeah? You think that? Well, then we2338think differently.'' And it is a position that you find2339yourself in and I find myself in. And I have never been one to2340play tiddlywinks; I will go right to it.2341    So, I want you to know that, today, I am not going to put2342us through some of the bigger questions. Because, as I told the2343staff, I am not going to do that because you are under an2344obligation to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but2345the truth, so help you God. And that means that I could ask you2346questions about some things that may be in transit, some things2347that may be being worked on now. But when we are not with you2348under oath, you and I are going to engage in that with Mr.2349Mfume.2350    And we need to understand more about the same types of2351questions that have been brought up by our Members, about the2352hopes and expectations that come from both sides about the2353Postal Service, about its delivery system. And you have given2354us back enough impediments, the things which you do believe are2355in the way of you not only making a profit but being2356successful.2357    And so, we are going to have to have more than just time2358with each other in an open mic like this. And so, Mr. Mfume has2359informed me that he will be pleased to participate in this2360effort. And I think that we owe it to the American people, but2361I know we owe it to Members of Congress to address these2362issues.2363    And it will not be about what we are doing with a burned-2364down post office. It will not be about what we are doing on a2365route or two. It will be the financial integrity, the things2366that would allow you to serve people and to make changes that2367would be necessary to you.2368    And so, I want you to know that I have received the best2369wishes from a good number of people leading up to this,2370including people who work for the Post Office, including people2371who were in the industries that surround this that have placed2372billions of dollars in all of our hands. It is in our best2373interest to make sure this works.2374    And I have a commitment to this. I served on the last2375postal subcommittee that we had in Congress. I came to that2376subcommittee because I had an interest in it. I had a great big2377rural district. I still have a great big rural district, and I2378care about everybody.2379    So, I do care about the Service. I do care about your2380commitment. And I think I have sized you up as a person who is2381able to effectively work professionally through these issues.2382And you did not cause them, and I did not cause them, but it is2383going to come down to the three or four of us are going to have2384to make some tough decisions, that we can look at other people2385and say: That was a problem, the Postmaster General laid it on2386our doorstep, and we are not going to kick the can down the2387road. We are going to put these directly in front of us. And2388then we are going to have to figure out how we are going to go2389to our colleagues and pull it off.2390    But it does us no good to find that in one year from now2391the Postal Service failed. It does us no good, in my opinion,2392to go to a dollar stamp, even though there might be some in2393this room that think that is the right answer.2394    But we are going to have to make tough decisions. We will2395help you through that. And I will know that I know you enough2396professionally where you have the moxie and the stuff about2397yourself of what you are made of that you will stick with us.2398    I want to thank you and Mr. Marroni for being here today. I2399want to thank your friends and allies who have gathered2400together to not only cheer you on but also others who have come2401here with a hope that the entire system works. And we are going2402to do that.2403    So, Mr. Mfume, would you like to defend yourself in this2404effort?2405    Mr. Mfume. Well, thank you, first of all, Mr. Chairman.2406    As many of you know, we work well together because we put a2407goal in front of us and try to put politics to the side so that2408we are concerned about people and not politics.2409    And the other ``P'' in all this is ``Postal,'' the Postal2410Service, and why it gives us the kind of pride that we have had2411growing up in this country and the kind of personal2412relationships that we have all had with the Post Office. We all2413think it is ``our'' Post Office. And I think that is the way it2414was meant and intentioned and that is the way it has been2415throughout the years.2416    And so, when you consider something as yours, you have an2417obligation, at least inherently, to want to always try to2418protect it. And that has overcome the differences that we may2419have had on different things so that we are able to move2420forward together.2421    I have got a couple of UCs, Mr. Chairman, and then just a2422final statement.2423    Mr. Sessions. Yes, sir.2424    Mr. Mfume. I would ask unanimous consent to enter into the2425record a statement from the president of the American Postal2426Workers Union regarding today's hearing.2427    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.2428    Mr. Mfume. And I would ask unanimous consent to enter into2429the record a statement from the national president of the2430National Postal Mail Handlers Union regarding today's hearing.2431    Mr. Sessions. Without objection.2432    Mr. Mfume. Thank you, Mr. Sessions.2433    It was 1991 when the Congress really stepped up to the2434plate and put in place a debt limit and an authority for the2435Postal Service. That was 35 years ago, and they set it at $152436billion. I have to tell you, I am amazed it has not been2437revisited since then. That is a long, long time--35 years.2438    And so, one thing that is clear about all of this is that2439we cannot let United States Postal Service die, that we are2440going to have to find a way, as we all know, inevitably, to2441look at restructuring that debt limit. How we do it and what2442the new limit becomes is going to be a matter of a lot of2443conversations and discussions. It may be hard to sell, but I2444think most people feel like I do, that, rather than do nothing2445and watch the Titanic sink, that we need to do something.2446    And I think, without a doubt, that many Members of the2447Congress are going to be particularly watching what Mr.2448Sessions and what I advocate, because they would recognize that2449there is no daylight between the two positions. And hopefully2450that will get us to the point where we are able to deal with2451this debt crisis and debt limitation.2452    However, having said that, all other Members of this House,2453all 433, are going to have a comment or question and, clearly,2454are going to have some say in this, because people just do not2455want to give their votes even though they recognize that2456something is necessary.2457    And so, what comes out of that in terms of the concessions,2458if I could use that term, or the guarantees, which I feel2459better about, will be done collaboratively.2460    And, Mr. Postmaster General, I hope that you and your2461people are willing to be a part of that.2462    Mr. Marroni, I am going to ask that the GSA [sic] also2463weigh in on all of this so that we feel like we are on stable2464grounds to be able to answer the tough questions.2465    And then I am going to ask for something that none of you2466came to this hearing for, and that is vision. What becomes,2467then, after all that, the vision of the United States Postal2468Service that the American people who are watching this hearing2469and the Members of Congress who ultimately will have to grapple2470with the question of debt extension--what is the vision that2471you want to put before them?2472    And I do not want you to try to answer that now, but I just2473want you to think about it. Because that is what we need here--2474some clear vision that everybody in this country can get behind2475and to embrace and have signature on and to clearly feel like2476they are part of the solution going forward. So, I would ask2477you to think about that.2478    Again, I want to thank Chairman Sessions for his work and2479for our working relationship and would hope, as I have said2480earlier--we have gone through this for a lot of years. We would2481hope that this is the beginning of the ultimate end of the2482ongoing crises that we have all witnessed far too long.2483    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.2484    Mr. Sessions. The gentleman yields back his time.2485    Thank you.2486    And I will very succinctly tell the gentleman--and he has2487heard me say this many times--I believe us working together can2488accomplish this. And I am talking about the Postal Service, I2489am talking about their vendors, and people back and forth. I2490think the system is better when it works together. I think the2491system is better when it views each other as complementary to2492that system.2493    I think that there are people that do certain things out of2494their own either best interest or that is the way their route,2495so to speak, went, that there are things that you have as an2496advantage with the Postal Service that seemingly could be a2497disadvantage but that we can turn into an advantage. But I2498think that when we try and move that needle too far one way or2499another, I think it works adversely against the best interest2500of the whole.2501    So, those are my comments. The gentleman has a philosophy2502also. And I will tell you that if you have viewed us as trying2503to be a part of the solution, then you may go home tonight and2504know that Mr. Mfume and I, and I believe the General, is deeply2505committed to that also.2506    We now--I am going to close the hearing.2507    And so, with that, and without objection, all Members have2508five legislative days within which to submit materials and2509additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be2510forwarded first to us and then to the witnesses.2511    If there is no further business, without objection, this2512Subcommittee stands adjourned.2513    [Whereupon, at 5:02 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]25142515                                 [all]