“Europe’s Threat to American Speech and Innovation: Part II”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34       EUROPE'S THREAT TO AMERICAN SPEECH AND INNOVATION: PART II56=======================================================================78                                HEARING910                               BEFORE THE1112                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY1314                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1516                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1718                             SECOND SESSION19                               __________2021                      WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 4, 202622                               __________2324                           Serial No. 119-5425                               __________2627         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary2829               [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3031                Available via:http://judiciary.house.gov32                                ______3334                  U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE353662-734                    WASHINGTON : 20263738                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY3940                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair4142DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking43ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                    Member44TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York45THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California46THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee47CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,48SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin            Georgia49BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California50LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California51JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington52TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California53BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania54KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado55HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia56LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina57WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont58RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois59GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California60BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida61MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York62ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas63DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas64BRANDON GILL, Texas65MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington6667               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director68                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director6970                                 ------7172                            C O N T E N T S7374                              ----------7576                      Wednesday, February 4, 20267778                           OPENING STATEMENTS7980                                                                   Page81The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary82  from the State of Ohio.........................................     183The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on84  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     38586                               WITNESSES8788Lorcan Price, Legal Counsel, Alliance Defending Freedom89  International90  Oral Testimony.................................................     791  Prepared Testimony.............................................     992Graham Linehan, Comedian, Director, Journalist93  Oral Testimony.................................................    2994  Prepared Testimony.............................................    3195Paivi Rasanen, Member, Finnish Parliament96  Oral Testimony.................................................    3597  Prepared Testimony.............................................    3798Deepinder Mayell, Executive Director, The American Civil99  Liberites Union, Minnesota100  Oral Testimony.................................................    40101  Prepared Testimony.............................................    42102103          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING104105All materials submitted by the Committee on the Judiciary, for106  the record.....................................................    98107108Materials submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member109  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland,110  for the record111    An article entitled, ``How the House Judiciary GOP Misread112        Europe's ]120 million Euro X Decision,'' Feb 3, 2026,113        Tech Policy114    An article entitled, ``Trump Is Firing Federal Workers Over115        Beliefs He Doesn't Like,'' Sept. 16, 2025, ACLU116    The Opinion of the Supreme Court of the United States, Murthy117        v. Missouri, Jun. 26, 2024118    An article entitled, ``Trump asked Twitter to take down119        `derogatory' tweet from Chrissy Teigen: whistleblower,''120        Feb. 8, 2023, The Hill121    An article entitled, ``Twitter Kept Entire `Database' of122        Republican Requests to Censor Posts,'' Feb. 8, 2023,123        Rolling Stone124    An article entitled, ``Trump `censorship and control'125        campaign threatens press freedom,' FCC commissioner126        says,'' Jul. 29, 2025, PBS127    An article entitled, ``FBI raids home of Washington Post128        reporter in `highly unusual and aggressive' move,'' Jan.129        14, 2026, The Guardian130    An article entitled, ``Another wave of departures in131        Minnesota's U.S. Attorney's Office,'' Feb. 3, 2026, Star132        Tribune133    An article entitled, ``Elon Musk, King of Censorship: 10134        Times the `Free Speech Absolutist' Silenced Twitter135        Users,'' Jun. 25, 2023, Gizmodo136    An article entitled, ``Trump's war on comedy threatens free137        speech for all,'' Nov. 6, 2025, Salon138    An article entitled, ``Trump Is Firing Federal Workers Over139        Beliefs He Doesn't Like,'' Sept. 26, 2025, ACLU140    An article entitled, ``Trump calls for `termination' of 60141        Minutes in fresh attack on US media,'' Feb. 6, 2025, The142        Guardian143    A letter to Commissioner Henna Virkkunen, Commissioner for144        Tech Sovereignty, Security and Democracy, European145        Commission, from multiple professors, Sept. 3, 2025146    An article entitled, ``EU Decision Behind ]120 million Euro147        Fine on Musk's X Released by US Lawmakers,'' Jan. 30,148        2026, Tech Policy149    An article entitled, ``Inside the Elon Musk-Jim Jordan `mind150        meld' shaking up Capitol Hill,'' Feb. 5, 2025, Politico151    An article entitled, ``Fact Check: UK woman jailed for152        inciting racial hatred, not posting hurtful words,'' Oct.153        29, 2024, Reuters154    An article entitled, ``Speech, Coercion, and the Myth of the155        Censorship Regime,'' Oct. 2, 2025, Lawfare156    A letter to the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee157        on the Judiciary from the State of Ohio, and the158        Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee159        on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland, from the160        President, TechFreedom, Sept. 3, 2025161    A letter to the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee162        on the Judiciary from the State of Ohio, and the163        Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee164        on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland, from165        multiple professors, Sept. 3, 2025166    An article entitled, ``What the Crackdown Has Done to167        Minneapolis Children,'' Feb. 4, 2026, The New York Times168    A letter to the Honorable Donald J. Trump, President of the169        United States, The White House, from the Honorable J.170        Luis Correa, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary171        from the State of California, and the Honorable Scott172        Fitzgerald, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary173        from the State of Wisconsin, Apr. 9, 2025174    An article entitled, ``Meta to Pay $25 Million to Settle 2021175        Trump Lawsuit,'' Jan. 29, 2025, The Wall Street Journal176    An article entitled, ``Apple is top funder of lobby group177        that says it represents small developers,'' Sept. 19,178        2022, Ars Technica179    An article entitled, ``The False Choice Between Digital180        Regulation and Innovation,'' Oct. 2024, Columbia Law181        School182    A report entitled, ``The future of European competitiveness:183        Part A |184        A competitiveness strategy for Europe,'' Sept. 2024,185        Publication Office of the European Union186    A letter to the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the187        Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona,188        from the Freedom of the Press Foundation, Sept. 5, 2025189    A live shot of Nigel Farage, entitled, ``Is Free Speech Under190        Threat?'' Feb. 3, 2026, GB News191    A press release entitled, ``Debunking Republicans' Misleading192        Reports on the EU's Digital Services Act (DSA),'' Jul.193        25, 2025, House Judiciary Democrats194    An article entitled, ``Six Ways the DMA Is Backfiring on195        Europe by Harming Users, Innovation, and Allies,'' Jun.196        30, 2025, ITIF197    A letter to the Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee198        on the Judiciary from the State of Ohio, and the199        Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee200        on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland, from The201        Open Markets Institute, Sept. 3, 2025202    An article entitled, ``Nigel Farage: Epstein files should be203        released,'' Jul. 31, 2025, Politico204    An article entitled, ``Europe's tech law has turned Europeans205        into second-class digital citizens,'' Feb. 10, 2025,206        Progress Chamber207    An article entitled, ``Study says ChatGPT giving teens208        dangerous advice on drugs, alcohol and suicide,'' Aug. 6,209        2025, PBS210    An article entitled, ``EU regulations impose heavy costs on211        US companies, study finds,'' Jul. 28, 2025, Washington212        Examiner213    An article entitled, ``The Tech Industry Is Huge--and214        Europe's Share of It Is Very Small,'' May 20, 2025, The215        Wall Street Journal216    A statement from Human Rights First, Feb. 4, 2026217Materials submitted by the Honorable Chip Roy, a Member of the218  Committee on the Judiciary from the State Texas, for the record219    A letter to Paivi Rasanen, Member of Parliament, Parliament220        of Finland, and Reverend Juhana Pohjola, Bishop,221        Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland, from the222        Honorable Chip Roy, a Member of the Committee on the223        Judiciary from the State of Texas, May 21, 2024224    An op-ed entitled, ``War on religious freedom: We must stand225        up for Finnish Christians facing trial for their faith,''226        Feb. 16, 2022, by Representative Roy and Tony Perkins,227        Fox News228    A letter to the Honorable Nadine Maenza, Chair, United States229        Commission on International Religious Freedom, from the230        Honorable Chip Roy, a Member of the Committee on the231        Judiciary from the State Texas, Nov. 10, 2021232    A letter to Paivi Rasanen, Member of Parliament, Parliament233        of Finland, and Reverend Juhana Pohjola, Bishop,234        Evangelical Lutheran Mission Diocese of Finland, from the235        Honorable Chip Roy, a Member of the Committee on the236        Judiciary from the State Texas, and multiple Members of237        Congress, Feb. 11, 2022238    A letter to the Honorable Rashad Hussain, Ambassador at239        Large, Office of International Religious Freedom, and the240        Honorable Douglas Hickey, Ambassador, U.S. Embassy241        Helsinki, from the Honorable Chip Roy, a Member of the242        Committee on the Judiciary from the State Texas, Aug. 8,243        2023244Materials submitted by the Honorable Pramila Jayapal, a Member of245  the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Washington,246  for the record247    An article entitled, `` `They Couldn't Break Me': A248        Protester, the White House and a Doctored Photo,'' Feb.249        3, 2026, The New York Times250    An article entitled, ``ICE agents wrongfully detained U.S.251        citizen in Minneapolis for looking Somali, city leaders252        say,'' Dec. 11, 2025, CBS News253    An article entitled, ``Poll: 62 percent think ICE efforts go254        `too far,' '' Feb. 3, 2026, The Hill255    An article entitled, ``Newark mayor Ras Baraka arrested for256        protesting at migrant centre,'' May 9, 2025, BBC257An article entitled, ``Eight people have died in dealings with258  ICE so far in 2026. These are their stories,'' Jan. 28, 2026,259  The Guardian, submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, a260  Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of261  Pennsylvania, for the record262An article entitled, ``ICE Attorney: `This job sucks,' '' Feb. 3,263  2026, Fox 9 Minneapolis-St. Paul, submitted by the Honorable264  Lucy McBath, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from265  the State of Georgia, for the record266A report entitled, ``The EU's December 2025 Changes to CS3D:267  Quantifying Costs to U.S. Industry,'' Jan. 2026, Hudson268  Institute, submitted by the Honorable Troy E. Nehls, a Member269  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Texas, for270  the record271A letter to Members of the Committee on the Judiciary, from The272  Episcopal Parish of St. John the Evangelist, Feb. 3, 2026,273  submitted by the Honorable Becca Balint, a Member of the274  Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Vermont, for the275  record276Materials submitted by the Honorable Jesus G. ``Chuy'' Garcia, a277  Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of278  Illinois, for the record279    An article entitled, ``Elon Musk's Grok A.I. Chatbot Made280        Millions of Sexualized Images, New Estimates Show,'' Jan.281        22, 2026, The New York Times282    An article entitled, ``Elon Musk's X Faces EU Inquiry Over283        Sexualized AI Images Generated by Grok,'' Jan. 26, 2026,284        The New York Times285    An article entitled, ``Grok, Elon Musk's A.I., Is Generating286        Sexualized Images of Real People, Fueling Outrage,'' Jan.287        9, 2026, The New York Times288An article entitled, ``Hegseth censured Sen. Mark Kelly for289  saying things he's said,'' Jan. 25, 2026, Express News,290  submitted by the Honorable Deborah K. Ross, a Member of the291  Committee on the Judiciary from the State of North Carolina,292  for the record293294                 QUESTIONS AND RESPONSES FOR THE RECORD295296Questions to Deepinder Mayell, Executive Director, The American297  Civil Liberites Union, Minnesota, submitted by the Honorable298  Jerrold Nadler, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from299  the State of New York, for the record300    Response from Deepinder Mayell, Executive Director, The301        American Civil Liberites Union, Minnesota302303       EUROPE'S THREAT TO AMERICAN SPEECH AND INNOVATION: PART II304305                              ----------306307                      Wednesday, February 4, 2026308309                        House of Representatives310311                       Committee on the Judiciary312313                             Washington, DC314315    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m., in316Room 2141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Jim Jordan317[Chair of the Committee] presiding.318    Members present: Representatives Jordan, Issa, Biggs,319Massie, Roy, Fitzgerald, Cline, Van Drew, Nehls, Kiley,320Hageman, Fry, Grothman, Knott, Harris, Onder, Schmidt, Raskin,321Nadler, Johnson, Jayapal, Scanlon, Neguse, McBath, Ross,322Balint, Garcia, and Moskowitz.323    Chair Jordan. We will come to order. Without objection, the324Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any time. We welcome325everyone to today's hearing on Europe's Threat to American326Speech and Innovation.327    The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Florida, Mr.328Moskowitz, to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.329    All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States330of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one331Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for332all.333    Chair Jordan. Well, that would be a new rule, the guy who334announces that he is here--the individual who announces that335they are here gets to do the Pledge.336    We now start with opening statements and then we will get337right to our witnesses. The Chair will recognize himself for an338opening statement.339    On August 12, 2024, Thierry Breton of the European340Commission, which is the executive branch of the European341Union, sends a letter to Elon Musk. I just want to read the342first sentence. I think this captures what we are talking343about, what this hearing is about. It says,344345        Dear Mr. Musk,346347          I am writing to you in the context of recent events in the348        United Kingdom and in relation to the planned broadcast on your349        platform X of a live conversation between a U.S. Presidential350        candidate and yourself which will also be accessible to users351        in the EU.352353    We have highlighted this first sentence. This first354sentence captures it all. Here is someone from the European355Commission, Executive Branch of a European government, writing356an American citizen about an American company and about the357American Presidential election. He said the catalyst, the358context, the reason he is doing that are events that are359happening in a different country, the United Kingdom, not even360a member of the European Commission, about an interview that is361going to take place between Mr. Musk and the American362Presidential candidate. To America, also not part of the EU,363about events happening in the UK, not part of the EU, but this364individual thinks that they are going to regulate the speech365and are concerned about what may take place in this interview.366That is the context for all of this.367    We called this out. We called it what it was, censorship368and election interference. The European Commission said,369``don't worry, don't worry. Mr. Breton acted alone.'' Really?370We didn't think Mr. Breton acted alone at all. He was just371foolish enough to say the quiet part out loud.372    A year ago, this Committee started issuing subpoenas to373tech companies, big and small. We asked them to give us your374communications with foreign officials regarding censorship. The375production started rolling in. The European Commission376successfully pressured social media companies to change their377global content moderation rules directly harming the speech of378Americans in the United States. This hearing is not about379whether European governments can censor their citizens. They do380it. It is wrong. We know that. This hearing is about--we381disagree with that. This hearing is about whether American382speech in the United States is being silenced by regulators383across the Pond in Brussels. The truth is that is happening.384    Just look at these documents from TikTok. This is the385community guidelines survey. We can put that one up, too. I386just want to read the highlight.387388        The primary motivation for the next round of community389        guidelines updates is to achieve compliance with the Digital390        Services Act.391392    Here again, Europe is trying to influence speech and393everything around the world. What did TikTok censor in the U.S.394to placate the Europeans? Let's go to the next document.395    Censored, Marginalize speech, and behavior, ``media396presented out of context.'' I think that happens every single397day probably in this Committee. We always unanimous consents398about this media, that one. They will enter something from The399New York Times. We will enter something from Fox or something.400That happens all the time.401    TikTok censored true information and political speech on402topics like immigration in the United States because of403European censorship demands. It gets worse. Not just the404European Commission is regulating the content moderation405guidelines, often they directly ask platforms how are they406handling U.S. speech? In 2024, the Vice President of the407European Commission, Vera Jourova, traveled all the way to408California to meet with TikTok to discuss U.S. election409preparations. Now, why on earth would the EU--let's put this410one up, too. Why on earth would EU travel to California to talk411about U.S. elections? Is the Vice President, Ms. Jourova, ``Is412the VP interested in discussing both EU and U.S. election413preparations, or to stay mostly EU focused?'' Her response,414``We are interested in both.'' I mean that, to me, is just415unbelievable. Again, this is where the Digital Services Act is416taking us.417    The answer is obvious. The European Commission is trying to418censor speech and meddle in elections worldwide. Now, the419Europeans are trying to hide what they are doing. They say that420these censorship requirements are voluntary and achieved421through consensus. We don't think that is true either. When the422European Commission makes censorship demands, platforms have to423listen. Platforms said it themselves in internal emails that we424also got with our subpoenas.425    Let's put this one up, too. This, again, captures it as426well. Let's put the next one up there, too, following on. There427we go. Yes, let's just look at the bottom one, ``The EC428[European Commission] is opening the Gen AI subgroup under the429Code of Practice. I assume we want to join'' in the course and430then comes the truth: ``(we don't really have a choice).'' We431don't really have a choice.432    The Europeans try to hide what they are doing. They say433that these censorship requirements are voluntary, but they are434not, and achieved through consensus, but we know that is not435true, as I said, and platforms have said it in this document.436    Finally, I just want to say today we have some victims of437European censorship, Dr. Rasanen, a doctor, a devout Christian,438and grandmother of 12. She tweeted out a Bible verse and is on439trial under Finland's hate speech law. That is the kind of440censorship Europeans want worldwide.441    Mr. Linehan, to the Left, is going to be especially mad at442you because you used to be one of them. We had a similar443witness. We had a similar witness a couple of years ago, Matt444Taibbi, as part of the Twitter files and exposing what was445going on there. He was and probably still is Left of center,446but he stood for free speech, sat right where you guys are447sitting. Here is what happened to him. Democrats called him a448so-called journalist. They asked him to divulge his sources in449the middle of that hearing. After the hearing, they tried to450criminally refer Mr. Taibbi. Here is the kicker. During the451hearing, while he was sitting there testifying, the IRS was452actually at his home knocking on his door while he was453testifying. You talk about intimidation. While he was454testifying to Congress, the Biden Administration had the IRS455make a visit, make a friendly visit to his home.456    We appreciate you being here as well. I don't think that is457going to happen today because we have different folks in the458White House, but we appreciate all our witnesses here. We will459get to you in just a few minutes, but first, I am going to460yield to the Ranking Member for an opening statement, and then461we will get to your five-minute testimony. With that, the462gentleman from Maryland is recognized.463    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, thank you very much. Thanks to the464witnesses for joining us. Our colleagues want to have a hearing465today about the First Amendment under attack. Let's have it.466    Our freedom of speech, our freedom of assembly, our right467to petition government for a redress of grievances, our right468to a free press are all under siege today by President Trump469and his masked agents at ICE who operate like a lawless,470private, paramilitary force occupying American communities471across the country. In the last several weeks, ICE agents have472killed Renee Good, a U.S. citizen and 37-year-old mother of473three, gunning her down in cold blood simply for exercising her474First Amendment rights. They killed Alex Pretti, a U.S.475citizen, an ICU nurse treating military veterans, for476exercising his right to record government officials in action477and to speak to and to render aid and comfort to another U.S.478citizen, a woman who was violently shoved to the ground by an479ICE agent. This small act of kindness, solidarity, and dare I480say chivalry then brought the hellfire of a gang of masked ICE481agents down on Alex Pretti as they pummeled him. One agent482discovered Pretti's firearm which Pretti had never drawn or483brandished despite the instantaneous lies the Trump484Administration spewed out about him after he was killed. The485agent confiscated his weapon which he carried lawfully under486the Second Amendment in Minnesota State's concealed open carry487laws, and then the ICE agents proceeded to shoot him ten times488executing him in cold blood simply for exercising his First489Amendment and Second Amendment rights.490    In Chicago, Border Patrol Police shot five times U.S.491citizen Marimar Martinez, a Montessori school teacher, when she492was on her way from her home to church to deliver clothes she493had collected for the poor when she saw the now familiar to us494aggressive, violent raid taking place against people in her own495neighborhood, she honked her horn to warn people. This prompted496an agent to swerve his car into hers at which point he began497shooting directly into her car. She could ``feel bullets498continue to pierce her body all over. I saw my life flash499before me and slowly began to think this is the end of me,''500she told a shadow hearing yesterday on Capitol Hill. In a now501predictable pattern, phony charges against her for ramming the502police car were filed, but then promptly dropped by prosecutors503when they were clearly contradicted by the video recorded facts504on the ground. Miraculously, she has lived to tell the story,505traumatized by our government, her own government, but506undaunted and standing up for her community and for American507freedom.508    I could recite, Mr. Chair, equally gruesome cases to you509for the next two hours if we had the time, but everyone should510check out the sickening case of Aliya Rahman, a 43-year-old511citizen with autism in Minneapolis who was violently accosted512and assaulted by ICE agents as she tried to make her way to a513medical appointment. She screamed she was disabled and begged514to be left alone. You must look at the footage of her violent515abuse at the hands of these masked ICE goons smashing her car516window and pulling her to the ground to believe that something517like this could ever happen in the United States of America. Of518course, the Department of Homeland Security lied about her,519immediately calling the helpless, autistic woman an agitator,520the way they originally tried to defame Renee Good and Alex521Pretti as domestic terrorists with their pathetic propaganda522they had to withdraw.523    If there are domestic terrorists on the loose in524Minneapolis, it is not the unmasked people exercising their525First Amendment rights. It is the masked agents who believe526they operate with impunity and immunity and violent domination527over the lowly citizens of America. Yes, we need a hearing528today, Mr. Chair. It has been more than a month since 3,000529agents descended into Minneapolis, outnumbering the entire530local police force three to one. It has been four weeks since531they shot and killed Renee Good. It has been 10 days since Alex532Pretti was executed in broad daylight by ICE agents whose533salaries we pay and who got a $50,000 sign-on bonus, and whose534ranks almost certainly include pardoned January 6th535insurrectionists like Proud Boys and Oath Keepers who now may536have gone from beating the daylights out of our police officers537on January 6th to beating the daylights out of our citizens.538    In all that time, how many administration witnesses has the539Majority called to address these outrageous violations of the540Bill of Rights? Not one. A few days ago, Mr. Chair, every541Democratic Member of our Committee wrote to you and asked that542you call Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem before us543without delay. We wrote this Committee has devoted years of544oversight to alleged First Amendment Violations by social media545companies and we subpoenaed foreign companies over censorship546abroad. Look what is happening right here in front of our own547eyes. Federal agents have shot dead two Americans in the past548two weeks for exercising their rights to protest. We are glad549that you have heeded our calls and called Secretary Noem in.550Instead of demanding that she appear immediately today, her551hearing is set for a month from now. This is a Constitutional552Emergency today. The Government is destroying our social553contract by attacking the people and our rights on a daily554basis.555    Where is the sense of urgency, Mr. Chair? It may be the556giant Republican donor and Jeffrey Epstein pal, Elon Musk, is557upset that his company is on the hook for violating the law in558Europe. It may be that the public is angry at him about his559platform Grok creating nude photos on demand of women,560children, and men all over the world. It may be that he was561fined for refusing to comply with the European law against562fraud. We can look at all that stuff.563    In normal times, I would appreciate a vigorous, scholarly564discussion and debate about all that, comparing Europe's565aggressive, proactive approach to America's more laissez-faire566approach when it comes to regulating online evils like child567pornography, cyber bullying, and the epidemic of cyber scams568taking place online.569    I am an academic, as you know, and I would welcome one more570Committee seminar on the difference in views of the Europeans571versus the Americans on things like revenge porn, AI programs572that compose suicide notes for teenagers, and racist conspiracy573theories being promoted online. We have got time for all of574that, Mr. Chair. This is an emergency today what is taking575place in our country. These are not normal times.576    There are sweeping, blatant, and violent attacks on the577freedom of expression taking place right now in America, not in578Brussels, not in Geneva, not in a seminar room in Oxford.579Wherever you come down on child pornography, whether you agree580with the aggressive European approach or you like the Elon581Musk, Jeffrey Epstein libertarian approach, whatever, the truth582is that the European Commission is not posing a threat to our583central freedoms and constitutional rights today. The threat to584our freedom and our people today comes from the authoritarian585violence unleashed by the Trump Administration and this reign586of political terror and lawlessness being committed against our587people. As the Chief Federal Judge of Minnesota wrote last588week, ICE has violated more court orders in January 2026, than589some Federal agencies have violated in their entire existence.590ICE is not a law unto itself.591    Mr. Mayell, you are the Executive Director of ACLU, we are592grateful you have come to tell what is going on in your State593and to help us make sense of the idea that a European statute594that no one in America has ever heard of poses a greater threat595to our freedom and our Bill of Rights than roving gangs of596masked ICE agents gunning down American citizens in broad597daylight.598    Mr. Chair, let's bring in Secretary Noem without any599further delay and thank you for your indulgence and I yield600back.601    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. Just a couple of602quick comments. Four weeks from today, Ms. Secretary Noem will603be sitting right here in front of the Committee. One week from604today, Attorney General Bondi will be sitting here. The605European Commission, our witnesses would argue it is a threat.606Just ask Dr. Rasanen what has happened to her. I would point607out we have had Democrat witnesses here. In fact, last608Congress, we had a Democrat witness who at the time was a609Democrat candidate for President, RFK, Jr., and the Democrats610in that Committee hearing, the hearing on censorship, you can't611make this stuff up, it was a hearing on censorship, and the612Democrats made a motion to go to an Executive Session, so no613media could be in the room to hear what RFK, Jr., was going to614testify to in a hearing on censorship. You can't make it up.615    I appreciate the Ranking Member's critique there, but there616is plenty of critique to go around.617    We will now move to introduce today's witnesses. Well,618first, without objection, all other opening statements will be619included in the record.620    Today's witnesses, we will start with Mr. Lorcan Price, who621has been with us before, is an attorney with Alliance Defending622Freedom International, a nonprofit organization that works to623protect religious freedom, free speech, parental rights, and624the sanctity of life. Before joining ADF International, he was625an attorney in Ireland.626    Mr. Graham Linehan is a comedian, director, and journalist627at Fox News, I saw him this morning. I was working out this628morning, and I see you doing an interview on Fox News. In629September 2025, he was arrested on his arrival at London630Heathrow Airport for tweets he posted while he was in the631United States.632    Dr. Paivi Rasanen is a Member of the Finnish Parliament, a633medical doctor, former Minister of the Interior. She was first634elected to Parliament in 1995, a long time in Parliament. God635bless you. In 2021, she was criminally charged for tweeting a636Bible verse.637    Mr. Deepinder Mayell, I got that close, Deepinder Mayell,638is Executive of the ACLU of Minnesota. He previously served as639Executive Director of the James H. Binger Center for New640Americans at the University of Minnesota Law School. We welcome641all our witnesses. Thank you for being here today.642    We will begin by swearing you in. Will you please stand,643raise your right hand.644    Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury that the645testimony you are about to give is true and correct to the best646of your knowledge, information, and belief so help you God?647    Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in648the affirmative. Thank you. Please be seated. Please know that649your written testimony will be entered into the record in its650entirety. Accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony651in five minutes. I think we will start with Mr. Price, and then652Mr. Linehan, and then Ms. Rasanen.653    Mr. Price, you are recognized and welcome to begin.654655                   STATEMENT OF LORCAN PRICE656657    Mr. Price. Thank you very much, Chair Jordan, Ranking658Member Raskin, and the distinguished Members of the Committee,659ladies and gentlemen. I am delighted to share the panel today660with a fellow Irishman, Graham Linehan. I am not a comedy661writer, so I won't make a joke about two Irishmen who walk into662Congress, of course, I might be arrested on returning to663London, as you have experienced, Graham. I am also delighted it664with our client, Paivi Rasanen, who will speak in due course665about her ordeal in Finland.666    On the last occasion that we spoke, ladies and gentlemen,667on this subject, we had a discussion on the censorship668potential of the EU's Digital Services Act and at that point we669were speaking in the theoretical. It may cause censorship, it670has the potential to affect Americans, and so on, and then you671were not convinced. However, now, it is unmistakable that it672has, indeed, caused the censorship that we warned of. We have673moved from theory to practice. There can be no doubt that the674European's Digital Services Act is the tip of a massive675censorship industrial complex. The enormous fines levied on X676Corporation by the European Commission since the last hearing677has proved beyond all doubt that the European Union means to678strangle free speech by a systemic assault on U.S. companies.679    The EU has a multipronged strategy to open multiple680investigations, to add more and more regulations, and to impose681crippling fines and ultimately to attempt to ban companies such682as X who are pro free speech. To go deeper, this censorship683campaign is not just aimed at destroying free speech in Europe.684It is about imposing European laws globally. Make no mistake685that Europe's draconian speech laws are being imposed on your686citizens via global content moderation rules, as indeed this687Committee's investigation has so amply pointed out.688    The EU's obsession with eliminating free speech means they689have a global campaign to ensure that all speech online and690platforms that allow it are banning illegal content to prevent691``systemic risks to the discourse.'' The U.S. companies are692therefore transformed into a global censorship police. They693must engage in a process of analyzing, ``how platform design694algorithms and content moderation impact public debate,695misinformation, and media pluralism.'' This is what is being696forced on American companies today. If they don't comply, then697they face possibly endless investigations and crippling fines.698There are multiple ongoing investigations into X, including for699not allowing illegal content. In Europe, illegal content can700mean calling a German politician an idiot or posting, as we701know, a Bible verse.702    Let's be clear. What is happening to X now is that free703speech is such a threat to the European elites that they will704either cripple X with fines and investigations, break up the705company, or force them to bend the knee at the altar of706censorship. I hope that they stand strong because we need free707speech in Europe now more than ever.708    I want to commend this Committee on this investigation709which shows that U.S. companies are already having to adopt to710EU standards in relation to their content moderation policies,711so it is directly affecting, to answer Congressman Raskin's712point, First Amendment rights of Americans today in practice.713    There are ongoing actions, as well, under the Digital714Markets Act and various other regulations. It is fair to say715that it has become a point where the European Union has fines716of American companies as a line item in their annual budget.717Last year, roughly $3.8 billion Euro was levied in fines718against U.S. companies.719    National countries are also trying to get into the act. We720saw that the French police raided X's offices in Paris just721this week and the Spanish Prime Minister has announced criminal722liability against company owners for so-called hate speech. I723have submitted in my written testimony excerpts of the724ridiculous hate speech laws that we have to suffer under in725Europe. Of course, hate speech has no real meaning other than726speech they hate.727    What I would say to our American friends is you cannot728allow the EU's rules of hate speech to be imposed on the entire729digital world via the DSA. Americans know how this goes when730this committee in the past has exposed censorship around COVID.731Tech censorship denudes and eliminates free speech online. The732threat is real and it is with us now.733    Thank you very much and I look forward to our discussion.734    [The prepared statement of Mr. Price follows:]735736    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]737738    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Price. Mr. Linehan, you are739recognized for five minutes. Make sure you hit the mic there,740yes. Pull that mic close and fire away.741742                  STATEMENT OF GRAHAM LINEHAN743744    Mr. Linehan. Thank you. Thank you for this opportunity. My745name is Graham Linehan. I spent 30 years writing comedy for746British television. It was a career I loved, but it ended when747I began noticing that women were losing their livelihoods,748their social circles, and even their freedom for defending749rights won over a hundred years ago by the suffragette750movement. I looked into what these women were saying and could751find nothing wrong with any of it. They believed, as I do, that752single-sex spaces are essential for women's privacy, dignity,753and safety. They believe that children should not undergo754experimental medical treatment that ravages their health and755shortens their lives. They believe that women have a right to756fair sport. These were not extreme positions, but for holding757them, I became the target of a series of harassment campaigns758that cost me my career, my marriage, and eventually drove me759from my homeland.760    For a decade, the British Police have harassed me for761expressing views that the majority of the public share. In 10762years, not one person, not the police who arrested me, not the763colleagues who condemned me, not the friends who turned away,764has told any of us what we did wrong. Our accusers do not deal765with arguments. No one is able to point to flaws in our766analysis. We have simply been punished for objecting to767fashionable, yet incoherent orthodoxies. When I could no longer768make a living writing comedy, I returned to journalism which769was my first profession. I interviewed canceled women on my770YouTube channel, covering stories the BBC refused to touch. On771my Substack, my colleague published a weekly roundup of772outrages. We called it ``The War on Women.'' We were never at a773loss for stories.774    This Committee is here to discuss threats to free speech in775Europe, but I briefly want to touch on the forms of quiet776censorship that don't require State suppression, for the State777has learned to let others do its work. When employers fire778workers for protected speech, when banks close accounts, when779publishers drop authors, when platforms suspend users, the780Government's hands stay clean. The censorship happens. The781State didn't do it. In Britain, we have discovered that you can782have formal free speech and no free speech at all.783    I want everyone to understand that gender ideology and free784speech cannot coexist. You can hear the lie in the very785language: Trans-woman meaning man, trans-man meaning woman,786trans-healthcare meaning the opposite of healthcare, and trans-787rights means men's demands, an ideology that tells lesbians788they are bigots for not accepting male partners, is not789progressive. It is homophobic. I will bring this home to790Washington for a second. Right now, a man named Hobbie Bingham,791who calls himself Princess Zoee Andromeda-Love is a registered792sex offender in this country. He raped a 12-year-old girl. He793was transferred to the Washington Corrections Center for Women794where he raped a developmentally disabled female inmate. This795is not happening in Britain. This is happening here. These are796the policies we are being asked to accept. Just as in the797United Kingdom, those who refuse pay with their livelihoods,798their reputations, and their peace of mind.799    Finally, I am asking the Committee to do three things.800    First, use every diplomatic lever you to pressure the801British Government to implement its own Supreme Court ruling.802Women just won a landmark case confirming that sex means803biological sex. The guidance to enforce it has been written.804The Minister for Women and Equalities has blocked it for805months, calling it trans-exclusive. If the British Government806can ignore its own Supreme Court to appease gender activists,807so can yours. Please make sure--make it clear that America is808watching.809    Second, put pressure on the Irish Government to reopen the810conversation it never had. In 2015, while Irish people were811celebrating their vote for marriage equality, the Gender812Recognition Act was quietly passed. No public consultation, no813referendum, and no women's rights organizations consulted. The814public did not know what they were signing up for. They do now.815The consequences are visible across Irish life. Men in women's816prisons, men in women's sports, and children taught lies in817their schools. Ireland is my country of birth; its women and818girls deserve the debate that they were denied.819    Third, recognize that free speech is not preserved simply820by declining to arrest people. People from all walks of life821are being silenced by the institutions that license and employ822them. We need new whistleblower protections for the digital823age. If government will not defend dissenters from824institutional retaliation and mob rule, then what is the First825Amendment for? That is not an abstract question. The women who826lost their careers, the children who lost their health, and the827athletes who lost fair competition, they did not have a voice828in the decisions that failed them. I am asking you to give them829one. Thank you.830    [The prepared statement of Mr. Linehan follows:]831832    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]833834    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Linehan. Doctor, you are now835recognized for five minutes.836837                   STATEMENT OF PAIVI RASANEN838839    Dr. Rasanen. Chair Jordan, Ranking Member Raskin, and the840Members of the Committee, thank you so much for inviting me to841speak with you today. My name is Paivi Rasanen. I am from842Finland and I am a medical doctor and I have served previously843as a member of--or I now serve as a member of the Finnish844Parliament since 1995, but previously, I have served as a845Minister of Interior.846    I love my country. Finland is a democracy that was built on847the rule of law and fundamental freedoms. These values matter848deeply to me as a European and as a Christian. More than six849years ago in 2019, I expressed my Christian beliefs about850marriage and sexuality in a Twitter post. I directed my post to851my church, Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland in response852to their decision to participate in a parade, Pride, which I853believe contradicts our Christian faith. I added a picture of854some Scripture verses with a post that guided my perspective on855this issue. I did so peacefully, without targeting or insulting856anyone.857    For this exercise of my free speech, I was investigated by858the police. I was interrogated for more than 13 hours, and I859was charged with criminal hate speech. In addition to the860Twitter post, I also was criminally charged for a short861pamphlet on human sexuality I had written for the church years862earlier, in addition to comments I made in a radio discussion.863Lutheran Bishop Juhana Pohjola was charged alongside me for864publishing my pamphlet for the church.865    Under Finnish law, our charges fall under the section of866the criminal code dealing with war crimes and crimes against867humanity and can carry up to two years of prison time. This was868difficult to comprehend.869    I want to be very clear. I didn't insult anyone. I simply870expressed my convictions rooted in my faith. Twice Finnish871courts unanimously acquitted me. They ruled that no crime had872been committed. Despite this clear ruling, the State873prosecution continued to pursue those charges against me. Last874October, the Supreme Court of Finland heard my case alongside875that of Bishop Pohjola. My defense was based on the freedoms of876speech and religion protected by Finnish, European, and877international law. Officials and I are now awaiting the878decision of the Supreme Court.879    This case has never been only about us. It is about whether880peaceful expression of deeply held beliefs can be treated as a881criminal act in today's Europe. It is about whether citizens882including clergy and elected representatives may speak openly883on matters of conscience without fear of persecution. It is884about whether it is illegal to say what you believe. Our story885shows how the process itself comes to punishment. We have faced886years of legal uncertainty. This creates a chilling effect for887everyone who holds views outside the narrow State-approve888consensus.889    When the State controls which ideas and beliefs may be890expressed, democracy becomes fragile. Speech that is lawful891today can become criminalized tomorrow. This should concern892every person that values freedom.893    I have been supported by my faith and thousands of894expressions of support I have received from around the world,895including many from the U.S. Congress. I remain hopeful. I896trust that freedom of expression can still be upheld. It is too897important to lose. My wish is simple, that Europe and our898democratic partners remain places where every person can speak899freely. I am pleased with the good relations between United900States and Finland and hope that they will continue to901strengthen.902    Thank you for listening and thank you for your commitment903to freedom.904    [The prepared statement of Dr. Rasanen follows:]905906    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]907908    Chair Jordan. Thank you, Doctor. Mr. Mayell, you're909recognized for five minutes.910911                 STATEMENT OF DEEPINDER MAYELL912913    Mr. Mayell. Thank you. Chair Jordan, Ranking Member Raskin,914and the Members of the Committee, thank you for the invitation915to testify today.916    My name is Deepinder Mayell and I'm honored to serve as the917Executive Director of the ACLU of Minnesota. I appreciate this918Committee's interest in free speech, and I'm here today to talk919with you about what is happening in my home State of Minnesota,920where it feels like it is under siege and where the First921Amendment rights that we all cherish are under attack in a more922grave way than I have ever experienced in my life. If you have923not been on the ground in Minnesota in recent weeks, it is hard924to imagine how un-American it has felt, and I want to give you925a firsthand account.926    For the people in Minnesota, this is a time of profound927grief, fear, and outrage. In recent weeks, we have experienced928violence, chaos, and abuse at the hands of hundreds, and now929thousands, of masked law enforcement agents brandishing weapons930of war on American streets.931    Two people have been shot and killed for observing and932protesting the actions of Federal agents, Renee Good and Alex933Pretti. Witnesses to their deaths are their neighbors and934fellow Minnesotans.935    One witness to Mr. Pretti's killing submitted a sworn936statement to court in our lawsuit, Tincher v. Noem, saying that937they were so afraid of retaliation, they went into hiding.938    Quote, ``I do not feel safe in my city,'' said another939witness to Mr. Pretti's death. This person was a doctor who had940run to the scene to perform CPR on him. Quote, ``I worry that I941or someone I love will be shot and killed for voicing their942displeasure and being in the wrong place at the wrong time.''943    This is not the America we recognize. This is not the944America, and the free country that we cherish. It is not the945America we deserve, nor one that our laws or Constitution946allow.947    At the worst moments, it has felt like we are living in a948police State. Agents have stormed our parks and school yards.949They have blocked our streets. They have barricaded store950parking lots. They have thrown tear gas in front of our homes.951They have pepper-sprayed peaceful protesters and952indiscriminately pointed semiautomatic weapons in the faces of953American citizens.954    People living in the United States are not, and should not955have to be, accustomed to armed agents demanding to see their956papers, but that's now happened in far too many places in the957region.958    Heavily armed, masked squads have broken into people's959homes and dragged American citizens into the street. If you960appear to ICE or Border Patrol as a possible immigrant, you961risk being snatched of the street, often with physical962violence, and being put into detention. Although many963Minnesotans are peacefully protesting, thousands of Minnesotans964are now afraid to leave their homes.965    Public schools in Minneapolis closed the week of January9668th, after Federal agents pepper-sprayed, tackled, and967handcuffed multiple people. According to school district968officials from Fridley and Richfield, more than 30 percent of969students were absent from classes that week. Across the region,970children are still learning online due to fear of attending971school.972    The business and commercial districts are like ghost towns,973as the very presence of Federal agents make people terrified to974go about their daily life, and immigrant community members and975neighbors have not left their homes in weeks--avoiding even976basic daily activities, like buying groceries, picking up977prescriptions, or going to work.978    This is not an unintended impact. It is intentional. The979administration has deployed thousands of agents in a bid to980spread fear, cause people to flee the country they call home,981and make the rest of us too afraid to speak out.982    These agents are bound by the Constitution. Yet, they have983broken dozens of our laws and agency policies, as well as the984faith of the American communities they are meant to protect.985    I'm here to ask you, as Members of Congress, to act. Our986cherished rights, all our cherished rights, are at stake.987Please use the power of the purse to rein in this988unprecedented, lawless, and dangerous escalation in our989community. We urge you to demand that Federal forces withdraw990from Minnesota now--before another life is taken. Thank you.991    [The prepared statement of Mr. Mayell follows:]992993    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]994995    Chair Jordan. Thank you. We will now proceed with five-996minute questions from the Members. The Chair recognizes the997gentleman from California, Mr. Kiley.998    Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our999witnesses.1000    History shows that freedom of speech is rare, and that1001censorship and oppression are common. Perhaps the primary1002principle that has set the United States apart through our 250-1003year history is our commitment to freedom of speech as the1004foundation of our democracy and self-government.1005    Yet, even here, we witness threats to freedom of speech1006from time to time. Thanks to the work of this Committee, we1007were able to uncover the extent to which censorship took hold1008during the prior administration in pressuring social media1009companies to censor the content and speech of American1010citizens.1011    For example, on perhaps the most significant event in1012generations, the COVID-19 pandemic, individuals were forbidden1013from positing a theory as to how it started that likely turned1014out to be true.1015    In the runup to the 2020 election, damaging information1016about one of the Presidential candidates was systematically1017censored on social media, which the leaders of those companies1018have now admitted was wrong. Indeed, in response to this1019Committee's investigation, Mr. Zuckerberg of Facebook has1020stated that it was wrong for that platform to respond to the1021censorship demands of the Biden Administration.1022    Thankfully, we are in a much different place in this1023country now, although in some parts of the country there still1024is an impulse to censor. In my State of California, the1025Governor, Gavin Newsom, saw a parody video that was criticizing1026Kamala Harris right before the 2024 election, promptly called1027for a law to ban the video. It was signed. Thankfully, that was1028struck down by the courts in short order. We still do have1029checks and balances here.1030    Increasingly, we're seeing that the threats to the freedom1031of speech of American citizens emanate from abroad, as the1032different approach that some of our European allies have taken1033to freedom of speech has become even more different and1034systematic and global in nature in recent years.1035    Mr. Linehan, I want you to just walk us through what1036happened to you. Because you were in the United States. You put1037up a tweet. You're a comedian. You used some off-color1038language, maybe different than the way I would say things1039sometimes, but that's what you do. You made a comment about the1040propriety of biological males being in female-only spaces. Can1041you tell me exactly what happened when you landed at Heathrow1042Airport in some detail?1043    Mr. Linehan. Well, as I said, because I'd been arrested1044before, and because I'm sort of the victim of village gossip on1045a global scale, when the plane actually taxied to a stop, and1046we were kept there for longer than is usual, I sort of1047immediately knew that I might be about to be arrested.1048    When I got to the door, I couldn't believe it. There were1049five police, all of them armed, which is standard in Heathrow.1050It was a shock. I didn't think they--I didn't see how five1051police were necessary, especially as I was coming into the1052country to testify in another trial, and they would have known1053that.1054    Yes, I have to say, even though it was shocking and1055unpleasant, and I ended up having such high blood pressure that1056I had to be transferred to a hospital, in many ways, I'm very1057glad it happened to me. Because my voice has been silenced so1058long in the U.K.--I'm very much a niche voice because of the1059kind of control gender ideology has over the whole country,1060over institutions.1061    Mr. Kiley. Well, it's also probably the chilling effect,1062right?1063    Mr. Linehan. Yes.1064    Mr. Kiley. You put up a tweet. You say something that you1065believe, and you're met by five armed guards who put you in1066jail. What effect does that have on other people speaking their1067minds?1068    Mr. Linehan. As you know, as you say, the chilling effect,1069who knows? Who knows what the effect is? Since the censorship1070that's at play when it comes to issues around women's rights,1071it's a kind of quiet censorship. People are counseled quietly.1072They just stop being invited to things.1073    Mr. Kiley. Right.1074    Mr. Linehan. They stop getting contracts, and so on. Yes,1075that's one of the things I wanted to get across to people, that1076there's more than one form of censorship. It's not just the1077government being heavy-handed. It is a sort of an orthodoxy1078that has been imposed across British society, especially in1079certain industries that attract very privileged middle-class1080people. We have publishing, theater, the media, and the NHS1081now, which is very frightening.1082    All these institutions have been captured by gender1083ideology, and no one is objecting to it. Just the fact that no1084one is objecting to it does not mean that people don't object1085to it. Do you know what I mean?1086    Mr. Kiley. That's right and that is what has been1087recognized by our courts as the peculiar evil of censorship, is1088that it ends up silencing a much broader swathe of speech, and1089thereby distorts democracy, distorts the values of society, and1090impedes progress. That's what we're trying to stop with this1091hearing today.1092    Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.1093    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman from1094Maryland is recognized.1095    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, thank you. Mr. Price, we've seen you1096now four times. We met you in Brussels. We met you in London.1097You've come twice to testify here. We're familiar with your1098views. I do think you call yourself a civil libertarian,1099someone who is a champion of free speech.1100    Would you agree with me that nobody should be shot or1101killed by their government for exercising their freedom of1102expression?1103    Mr. Price. Absolutely, people shouldn't be killed, unless1104there's, obviously--there's an investigation I believe1105underway, in the incident you're referring, but--1106    Mr. Raskin. How about reporting on the activities of1107government officials? Do you think that the public has the1108right to take notes, to video record, and then, to publicly1109disseminate information about what our police officers, ICE1110agents, or government officials are doing? Is that part of the1111freedom of expression?1112    Mr. Price. I think people have the right to share1113information online, sir.1114    Mr. Raskin. Yes, our courts have certainly found that.1115Thank you for coming and contributing your voice on that.1116    Mr. Mayell, thank you for coming all the way from1117Minnesota. I hope you don't feel like you've entered ``The1118Twilight Zone'' here.1119    We're having another hearing about the imaginary threat to1120the transphobic material of Irish comedians against the1121European Union. We can't seem to have a hearing about ICE1122agents shooting Americans in the face for exercising their1123First Amendment rights. Please give us a sense of your1124experience of what the topic of this hearing is versus what's1125going on in our country.1126    Mr. Mayell. Thank you. I am here to talk about the most1127significant threat to free speech in our lifetime. That is not1128happening online or digitally right now. It is happening on the1129streets of Minnesota and Minneapolis. As well as the most1130significant attack on our First Amendment and the principles of1131the First Amendment, and the protections against warrantless1132arrests as well.1133    Mr. Raskin. Well, you made a really significant point in1134your testimony when you said: ``We, of course, are seeing tens1135of thousands of Minnesotans out in the streets every day1136protesting this reign of terror.'' You've also said that, ``a1137lot of people are afraid now to go out because of the violence1138that's occurred.''1139    In other words, those huge protests could be even much1140huger without government oppression? Am I reading you right on1141that?1142    Mr. Mayell. Yes. I can't describe in words fully how1143disruptive, terrifying, and intense this feeling is in1144Minnesota right now. People are scared to leave their homes.1145People are scared to go about their daily business.1146    I'm not talking about just immigrants. I'm talking about1147immigrants with legal status. I'm talking about people of1148color. I'm talking about whole swathes of the community that1149are afraid to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'm1150talking about people who are exercising their protected First1151Amendment rights of free speech.1152    Mr. Raskin. Well, are the ICE agents who we see ripping1153people out of their cars, knocking down doors without warrants,1154shooting people, are they distinguishing between U.S. citizens1155and immigrants? Are these authoritarian, violent tactics being1156used against anybody who they perceive to be in their way?1157    Mr. Mayell. Well, we heard, starting when the surge began1158in late November--we started to immediately hear of reports of1159unconstitutional activity, the use, the wild use of pepper1160spray on crowds, and peaceful protesters; the pointing of1161semiautomatic weapons indiscriminately; the deploying of tear1162gas in playgrounds and in residential neighborhoods. It has1163been a broad swathe of unconstitutional activity.1164    Mr. Raskin. Well, are the people in Minnesota upset about1165the way that the European Union Digital Services Act is1166affecting Elon Musk? Are people talking about that?1167    Mr. Mayell. I'm here to talk about what is happening on the1168ground in Minnesota and the most significant free speech issue1169happening in the country today.1170    Mr. Raskin. Well, we appreciate the fact that you came, and1171we appreciate the fact that the ACLU is standing up for1172people's rights.1173    You've seen lots of rights under attack. The freedom of1174speech is under attack. The right to assemble peacefully is1175under attack. The right to petition government for redress of1176grievances is under attack. The freedom of the press is under1177attack. The First Amendment right not to have your door knocked1178down without a search warrant based on probable cause, issued1179by a neutral, independent magistrate, is under attack there.1180    All these things have become the object of destruction by1181ICE and by the Trump Administration. I just wonder if you would1182reflect generally on the State of freedom in your city.1183    Mr. Mayell. I can tell you that it feels like the rule of1184law is under siege in Minnesota.1185    Mr. Raskin. Thank you. I yield back to you, Mr. Chair.1186    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman from1187Wisconsin is recognized for five minutes.1188    Mr. Fitzgerald. Just an inquiry to the Chair, before I ask1189my questions. I was wondering, is it possible, Chair, to bring1190back Alejandro Mayorkas before the Committee? I realize that1191the impeachment process certainly was explored and failed, but1192it would be great to know how he sat before this Committee and1193deceived and lied and systematically1194    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, point of order. Is the gentleman1195using his time or is this a parliamentary inquiry? I'm not1196quite sure what's going on.1197    Chair Jordan. Yes, his time should be running. It's five1198minutes.1199    Mr. Fitzgerald. I'm just wondering if we could get the1200Secretary, the former Secretary, before the Committee. Because1201he systematically opened the border to illegals from 2021-20251202for a purpose, I suppose, of securing some type of new1203political base.1204    Minneapolis never happens if it wasn't for Biden, Mayorkas,1205and the elected officials have pretended that opening the1206border to illegal criminals for five years wouldn't have to be1207reversed and cleaned up at some point. I just think it would be1208interesting if the Committee could bring him back.1209    Mr. Linehan, to my knowledge, you were the first person1210arrested by the U.K. government over tweets, but this could1211have happened to any American resident who uses social media to1212discuss politics. Isn't that right? If somebody was on their1213way back from the U.K. and suddenly arrived at Heathrow, they1214could be arrested, too, even if they were an American citizen?1215    Mr. Linehan. I can't really speak to that, but I wasn't the1216first. There are many women arrested because trans activists1217have reported them to the police before me.1218    As far as America goes, I don't think they would like the1219publicity of arresting an American national in the U.K. We1220really only have that to depend on. They just choose not to do1221it at the moment.1222    Yeah, that there is a general danger of people being1223affected by really quite random rules on speech. Something1224that, like saying that there are two sexes used to be something1225we all believed. I believe Mr. Raskin possibly even believed1226it. Nowadays, people are pretending not to believe that there1227are two sexes, and it is something that destroyed my whole1228career and life, that I insisted on the truth.1229    We can't rely on the mood of governments being affected by1230incoherent liberal orthodoxies.1231    I'm sorry, it's not a great answer to your question, but--1232    Mr. Fitzgerald. No, no. It's very good. Thank you. Mr.1233Price, why should Americans care about Graham Linehan's arrest?1234    Mr. Price. Why? They should care because it shows very1235clearly what's happening in Europe. What we're talking about is1236European laws now being exported by the European Union via1237content moderation rules across the world. That's what is going1238on now.1239    American speech is already being affected, and in my1240written statement, you'll see a sample of some of the really1241quite Draconian and bizarre laws that we have in Europe when it1242comes to speech. That type of legal system is now being pressed1243down via these digital content moderation rules into American1244speech.1245    For Graham and for Paivi, you can see very clearly that1246these laws aren't theoretical. They put them into force, and it1247means people are arrested. There are interrogations. Their1248freedom is taken away. Paivi has faced a six-year court battle1249to get to this point. Graham, undoubtedly, is in their1250crosshairs for more action in the future, which means that,1251really, we just don't know--as we say, the extent of the1252chilling effect is enormous in Europe, and exporting that1253globally via EU digital regulation is--it should be a real1254concern for this Committee. Indeed, it is, thanks to your1255investigations.1256    Mr. Fitzgerald. A recent report by the House Judiciary1257Committee shows evidence that the person in charge of enforcing1258the Digital Services Act was also concerned about enforcement1259of the DMA, the Digital Markets Act. Should we be concerned1260that the EU regulators could be using a threat of additional1261fines under the DMA to compel compliance with its global1262censorship regime?1263    Mr. Price. Certainly. One way to look at it is that you1264have to imagine there's concentric circles, and at the center1265is speech. Speech is the greatest threat to the European Union1266at this point. Being openly able to criticize the various1267escalating crises in Europe is the worst thing that they can1268have, and at the moment, X, and to a growing extent, Meta, is1269where that conversation is being had.1270    They will use other forms of weapons outside of that to1271attack companies allowed. There is a huge amount of regulation1272over the last 10 years that they've introduced, including the1273Digital Markets Act, the General Data Protection Regulation,1274GDPR. It's growing all the time.1275    If they don't start an investigation under the Digital1276Services Act, they have other options. At the core of this is1277an antipathy of hatred of free speech, which they want to1278globalize to protect their power in Europe.1279    Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Chair. I yield back.1280    Chair Jordan. There are =120 million reasons why DMA is a1281concern to America. We know what's going on.1282    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair?1283    Chair Jordan. The gentleman has a unanimous consent--1284    Mr. Raskin. Yes, thank you. I've got two quick UCs.1285    First, from Tech Policy Press, ``How the House Judiciary1286GOP misread Europe's 120 million euro X decision.''1287    Then, I'm wondering if it's possible for us just to1288incorporate by reference and resubmit everything that we had at1289the last hearing, since this is, essentially, duplicative of1290what we did last time, and just it's more environmentally1291responsible just to have it resubmitted rather than--1292    Chair Jordan. As long as it's not a problem. I can check1293with our parliamentarian.1294    Mr. Raskin. Yes. OK.1295    Chair Jordan. As long as it's not a problem--1296    Mr. Raskin. OK. Good deal.1297    Chair Jordan. Without objection, we can--1298    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much.1299    Chair Jordan. We can do that, and it saves us time.1300    Mr. Raskin. Yes.1301    Chair Jordan. Now, is it Mr. Nadler, the gentleman from New1302York, is recognized.1303    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Chair, masked Federal agents are wreaking1304havoc in our streets and killing our citizens. The Trump1305Administration has launched a brutal and reckless campaign to1306strike fear in immigrant communities--conducting warrantless1307raids, pulling elderly people from their homes without judicial1308warrants, tearing children away from their parents, and taking1309the lives of American citizens who are exercising their First1310Amendment rights to protest, and to shine a light on the1311horrors unfolding in their communities.1312    It's no wonder the Republican majority wants to change the1313subject and to distract from its utter failure to perform1314oversight over the Trump Administration's lawless and deadly1315policies. It is absolutely gulling that they have called yet1316another hearing on alleged threats to free speech in Europe,1317while they stay silent about the greatest threat to free speech1318on either side of the Atlantic--the President of the United1319States.1320    From the earliest days of his administration, the President1321has conducted a full-scale assault on the First Amendment--1322targeting news organizations, individual journalists,1323individual students, and even comedians who would dare1324challenge him or his policies. Any news organization that1325publishes unflattering coverage, or any journalist who asks a1326question he does not like, is at risk.1327    He has tried to ban the Associated Press from the Oval1328Office because it refuses to use the absurd name ``Gulf of1329America.''1330    He sued such prestigious outlets as the BBC, The New York1331Times, and The Wall Street Journal for billions of dollars1332apiece because they have reported true and critical1333information.1334    He was hoping that they would be intimidated and will1335follow the cowardly examples set by CBS and ABC's corporate's1336owners who settled baseless lawsuits. CBS's parent company was1337handsomely rewarded for this strategy, when its multibillion1338dollar merger was approved days after settling with Trump.1339    The threats of CBS continued just last month, when the1340White House press secretary relayed a message directly from1341Donald Trump to a CBS anchor who had just conducted an1342interview with the President, that if they did not add the full1343interview, the interview in full, then, quote, ``We'll sue your1344ass off.''1345    Just last week, his Attorney General ordered the arrest of1346independent journalists Don Lemon and Georgia Fort for1347reporting in a protest in St. Paul, Minnesota, despite a judge1348having previously found no probable cause to believe they had1349broken the law.1350    Even comedians who are critical of the President cannot1351escape his retribution. We all remember his hand-picked FCC1352Chair threatening that, if ABC did not take Jimmy Kimmel off1353the air, the FCC could, quote, ``do this the easy way or the1354hard way.''1355    After comedian Trevor Noah made a joke about the1356President's relationship with Jeffrey Epstein during the Grammy1357Awards the other night, Trump threatened on Truth Social that,1358as he did with ABC and CBS, he would send his lawyers to sue1359him and, quote, ``have some fun with him.''1360    Between the school-yard torrents and the childish nicknames1361in his posts, it would be easy to dismiss this pathetic rant as1362a joke, but the President has shown that he's all too serious1363about using and abusing his authority to go after critics.1364    His administration has followed his lead, sometimes with1365deadly consequences. When Alex Pretti and Renee Good were shot1366in cold blood by ICE agents, it was because they were1367exercising their First Amendment rights to protest and monitor1368law enforcement. They were trying to hold these agents1369accountable, filming their activities, and shining a light on1370their abuses.1371    The administration officials rushed to paint the victims as1372the aggressors, smearing their names, and making false claims1373about what happened. It is only because we have video evidence1374of these incidents that we all know the truth, and that is1375exactly what is so threatening to this administration. They1376want to silence their critics. They will use any means to do1377so.1378    They've even pressured tech companies to take down apps1379that allow people to alert their neighbors about ICE activity1380in their community.1381    While the Trump Administration conducts a breathtaking1382assault on the First Amendment, we have not heard a peep from1383our Republican colleagues. Instead, they want to focus our1384attention on European regulators and online safety laws. The1385Republicans insist that they are the true defenders of free1386speech. Give me a break.1387    Mr. Mayell, the people of Minnesota have shown us how1388powerful it can be when citizens bear witness to the dangerous1389and unlawful actions of their government. Why is that so1390important to protect?1391    Mr. Mayell. Well, our First Amendment protects our right to1392record ICE. I want to just focus-in on that as really important1393part of the constellation of accountability. Taking photographs1394and videoing of things that are plainly visible in public1395spaces is a constitutional right, and that includes police and1396other government officials carrying out their duties.1397Specifically, the First Amendment protects the right to both1398photograph and video police conduct occurring in both public--1399because it protects the right to gather information about what1400public officials do on public property, and because it protects1401the right to record such matters. That includes the right to1402livestream such content.1403    Mr. Nadler. Mr. Mayell, thank you for being here today to1404share with us your firsthand account of the terror that Federal1405agents are inflicting on our communities.1406    My time has expired. I yield back.1407    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. Mr. Mayell, did1408the Biden Administration censor people?1409    Mr. Mayell. I'm sorry. Thank you for your question. I'm1410here to talk about what's happening in Minnesota on the First--1411    Chair Jordan. Well, it's a simple question. Did they do it?1412    Mr. Mayell. --on the ground there.1413    Chair Jordan. Did the previous administration censor1414American speech? You're from the ACLU. You should care about1415that, too.1416    Mr. Mayell. We do care about free speech, but what I'm1417talking about here today is the most significant threat to free1418speech happening in this country.1419    Chair Jordan. You can say the truth. I got that. You said1420that every time the Democrats asked you a question. I want to1421know, did the previous administration censor American speech?1422    Mr. Mayell. Chair, this is not--what is happening in1423Minnesota is not normal.1424    Chair Jordan. OK. Well, here's what Mark Zuckerberg said to1425the Committee in August 2024: ``Senior officials from the Biden1426Administration''--1427    Mr. Nadler. Pardon me. On what time is the Chair asking1428this?1429    Chair Jordan. My time and the clock is ticking.1430    Mr. Issa. He hasn't gone yet.1431    Mr. Nadler. Oh, OK.1432    Mr. Issa. Could we restore the time?1433    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yielded, and it's my five1434minutes.14351436        Officials from the Biden Administration, including the White1437        House, repeatedly pressured our teams for months to censor1438        COVID-19 content, including humor and satire.14391440Did it happen, Mr. Mayell?1441    Mr. Mayell. Chair, I would love to be sitting here talking1442about online privacy.1443    Chair Jordan. Did Mark Zuckerberg lie to the Committee?1444    Mr. Mayell. I'm here talking about what's happening on the1445streets in Minnesota.1446    Chair Jordan. Did Mark Zuckerberg lie to the Committee? Did1447Mark Zuckerberg lie to the Committee when he said that?1448    Mr. Mayell. I am not here to speak about that. I wish I1449was, but I'm here to speak about the more significant threat to1450free speech.1451    Chair Jordan. Here's how it works. Mr. Price, let me ask--1452here's how it works. Day three of the Biden Administration,1453they send a tweet from the White House to Twitter, ``Take down1454this tweet ASAP.'' It was tweet from RFK, Jr., and it was about1455COVID. That's how it started, specific tweets.1456    Then, it progressed to policy. We have all kinds of1457documents we got in our investigation last Congress which show1458the policy: Change your policy. The leadership asked for1459misinformation policy, a couple of teams on product policy, to1460brainstorm some additional policy levers.1461    Then, it was broader. First, it was just specific tweets,1462``Oh, we've got to stop this tweet from influential people.''1463Then, it's a broader policy. Now, we have got foreign1464governments trying to impact American speech.1465    It's so pervasive that you have individuals who put a Bible1466verse up that they're coming after. That's the progression this1467takes.1468    Is that accurate, Mr. Price?1469    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.1470    Chair Jordan. That's how it goes. One tweet. We don't like1471RFK, Jr.,--oh, by the way, everything RFK, Jr., said in that1472tweet was true, back to Mr. Kiley's point. Many things they1473said to take down were true.1474    I bet Mr. Linehan would agree with that, too. That's how it1475goes. Sometimes the thing they want to censor is the truth.1476That's how this works.1477    By the way, Mr. Linehan, when they arrested you, were there1478cameras there? I'm just curious.1479    Mr. Linehan. No.1480    Chair Jordan. How about you, Doctor? When you were charged,1481how was that--how did that happen?1482    Well, let me go back for a second. I was curious about1483this, too, Mr. Linehan. When you were apprehended at Heathrow1484Airport, what did the police officers say? What did they say to1485you? Did they say--were they coming in aggressive? Or did they1486say, ``Hey, man, we're sorry. This is ridiculous. We've got to1487do our . . . '' How did that go down?1488    Mr. Linehan. I got that impression, that they felt a bit1489embarrassed about it, yes. Basically, the U.K. police are now1490in this situation where they are trying to contain every1491problem that Keir Starmer doesn't want to talk about, and1492that's all they do.1493    Chair Jordan. Yes.1494    Mr. Linehan. We can't get burglaries investigated and1495rapists put in prison, but we can get the police--1496    Chair Jordan. They can arrest a comedian who tweeted1497something in the United States who's not even a U.K. citizen.1498They can do that?1499    Mr. Linehan. Yes.1500    Chair Jordan. The police are just like, ``Dude, sorry about1501this. We've got to--we've got to do it??1502    Mr. Linehan. Yes.1503    Chair Jordan. Right?1504    Mr. Linehan. Now--1505    Chair Jordan. I guess it was the same with you, Doctor. Is1506that right? What did they say?1507    Dr. Rasanen. I mean, they said--1508    Chair Jordan. Maybe I'm wrong, but that would be my guess.1509    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. My process started over six years ago,1510and there was a Pride parade in Finland, and my church, the1511leadership of the church, decided to support that parade; also,1512finance really.1513    Chair Jordan. Yes.1514    Dr. Rasanen. It was a shock to me. I was afraid that this1515would undermine people's trust in the Bible. Then, it is not1516only about marriage or sex, but also about salvation of people.1517That's why I wrote that Twitter update, where I took a quote1518from the Bible and made a question to the leadership of the1519church.1520    Chair Jordan. Yes. Yes.1521    Dr. Rasanen. After that, some citizen made a criminal1522complaint about my Twitter update--1523    Chair Jordan. Did the police--1524    Ms. Rasanen. --and the police starting coming there--1525    Chair Jordan. Did the police come to your house? Did the1526police come to your house and charge you? How did it work? The1527police came--1528    Dr. Rasanen. The police started to investigate the case.1529    Chair Jordan. Yes.1530    Dr. Rasanen. I was then interrogated by police in a small1531police room, which was a very unreal situation, because some1532years before--1533    Chair Jordan. For a Bible quote?1534    Dr. Rasanen. --I was the Minister of Interior. Then, I was1535sitting there. The Bible was on the table, and the police was1536asking me very theoretical questions.1537    Chair Jordan. If I could, I'm just about out of time,1538Doctor, but I just want to say this. Thank you for that.1539    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.1540    Chair Jordan. That's where it progresses to. Specific1541tweets. Broad policy. Foreign governments getting involved in1542American speech, and focused on it, that they're willing to1543come after a member of Parliament who simply posted a Bible1544verse. They know it's wrong, as evidenced by the police have1545said like, ``Dude, we're sorry. We've just got to--we've got to1546do it.'' They know it's wrong.1547    We can't even get the guy from the ACLU to admit that the1548previous administration censored speech. That's the State of1549affairs. That is the State of affairs. The fact that the guy1550from ACLU can't even say, ``Oh, yes, they did it. Mark1551Zuckerberg said it. We got all kinds of evidence of it.''1552    It's so pervasive, they're even going after people, nice1553people like the doctor, who simply put a Bible verse online.1554    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair?1555    Chair Jordan. I yield back.1556    Mr. Raskin. Could I introduce for unanimous consent the1557Supreme Court's decision and Justice Barrett1558    Chair Jordan. It sounds like you're doing that right now.1559    Mr. Raskin. If that's all right?1560    Chair Jordan. Yes.1561    Mr. Raskin. It's Murthy v. Missouri, rebutting everything1562that you just said about what happened to that in the last1563administration.1564    Chair Jordan. Without objection. The Chair now recognizes1565the gentleman from Georgia for five minutes.1566    Mr. Johnson. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Price, you would1567agree that a free press is a hallmark of freedom of speech,1568would you not?1569    Mr. Price. Yes.1570    Mr. Johnson. You would have a problem if reporters and1571reporting organizations were barred from government offices and1572officials if they did not agree beforehand that they would1573allow those officials to approve their publications or their1574stories? You would agree that would be against principles of1575free speech, correct?1576    Mr. Price. In responding to the theoretical question, I1577would--1578    Mr. Johnson. Well, it's actually not even a theoretical1579question. It happened about a year ago. Just days into this new1580administration, the Department of Defense kicked out news1581organization that refused to agree to allow their stories to be1582preapproved to have access to the government offices and those1583officials. That actually happened.1584    This Committee has had no hearings on that. Yet, it would1585call you over here, and you agree with me that is an impediment1586toward free speech, when the press does not have access to1587government officials. You would agree with that. Correct?1588    Mr. Price. If--1589    Mr. Johnson. Yes or no?1590    Mr. Price. Well, it's a little bit more complicated than1591that, sir.1592    Mr. Johnson. OK. Well, no, it's not complicated at all.1593    What do you think about that, Mr. Mayell? You would agree1594that government officials should be subject to the media,1595correct?1596    Mr. Mayell. Yes. I believe in a free press, as protected by1597the First Amendment.1598    Mr. Johnson. Yes, this Committee also has not had any1599hearings about this administration issuing a search warrant to1600obtain the communications devices, computers, and records of1601The Washington Post reporter. That was something that was1602egregious, but this Committee is silent about it.1603    Calls you all from overseas to talk about First Amendment1604issues here in America, but is failing to look at what this1605current regime is doing to stifle free speech when it comes to1606freedom of the press, which, Mr. Price, you agree is a hallmark1607of freedom of speech.1608    Why is it that this Committee is wasting time because of a1609$125 million assessment against Elon Musk by Great Britain for1610violating its rules? This man is worth $700 billion, and you1611all are over here talking about $150 million. This Committee is1612wasting its time trying to protect Elon Musk from $125 million,1613when we have our First Amendment that is under attack in this1614country. We've said nothing about it.1615    News organizations being sued by the billionaire Donald1616Trump for saying something that he disagrees with, when your1617top government official is suing news organizations, doesn't1618that create an impediment to the exercise of the First1619Amendment, Mr. Price? Yes or no?1620    Mr. Price. Sir, you're very blessed you have a First1621Amendment. We wish we had that on our side of the Atlantic.1622    Mr. Johnson. Well, shouldn't we be talking about those1623issues here in this Committee rather than bringing you,1624importing you over from Great Britain to talk about what's1625going on in your country, when we who set the standard for the1626First Amendment are sitting idly by while it's burned, crushed,1627and shattered? Isn't that ironic? Don't you find some irony in1628that?1629    Mr. Price. All the things you described are ultimately1630under the right to appeal to a court.1631    Mr. Johnson. Just this past weekend two members of the1632press arrested. Don't you find that troubling, Mr. Price? In1633America, don't you see that our First Amendment is under1634attack; our freedom of speech is under attack in this country?1635    Mr. Price. You have a court system, hopefully, that will1636vindicate it.1637    Mr. Johnson. Well--1638    Mr. Price. We don't have that, unfortunately.1639    Mr. Johnson. Well, the court system, we have a Supreme1640Court that is owned lock, stock, and barrel by the billionaire1641President. That posed some very difficult problems for American1642democracy moving forward--at this 250-year mark of the1643Declaration of Independence from the monarchy, which I'm sure1644that you can appreciate.1645    Mr. Price. As an Irishman, I certainly do.1646    Mr. Johnson. Yes, sir. Thank you.1647    [Laughter.]1648    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair?1649    Chair Jordan. Are you going to have one of these every1650time?1651    Mr. Raskin. Well, I'm struggling to keep up with the1652onslaught here.1653    Chair Jordan. Well--1654    Mr. Raskin. This will go quickly.1655    Chair Jordan. All right.1656    Mr. Raskin. My UC, first, ``Twitter kept entire database of1657Republican requests to censor posts.'' That is February 8,16582023, Rolling Stone.1659    Second, ``Trump asked Twitter to take down derogatory tweet1660from Chrissy Teigen: Whistleblower.''1661    Third, `` `Trump censorship and control campaign threatens1662press freedom,' FCC Commissioner says.''1663    Finally, ``FBI raids home of Washington Post reporter in1664highly unusual and aggressive move.'' That's from The Guardian,1665January 14, 2026.1666    Chair Jordan. Without objection. The gentleman from1667California is recognized.1668    Mr. Issa. Thank you. I'm sure Mr. Raskin will cut me off1669exactly at zero, unlike his own people that go well beyond1670that.1671    Mr. Mayell, would you agree that one of the tenets of the1672First Amendment, the most important part in the ACLU in its1673history, is the ability to seek the enforcement of it in court?1674Without the support of the court, the First Amendment is moot,1675as far as its enforcement. Is that correct?1676    Mr. Mayell. That accountability is a constellation of1677things.1678    Mr. Issa. No, no. Of course, I know I'm a Republican and I1679know you want to be evasive. The ACLU has sued probably in1680Federal court more than any other entity to enforce the First1681Amendment in the past, including some very important things,1682and other constitutional--the access to the court is how we1683enforce the First Amendment here in the United States; how we1684enforce what is right and wrong. Is that correct?1685    Mr. Mayell. I don't want to I'm going to answer the1686question. What I want to say is that the courts are one way to1687seek redress and a cause of action for a First Amendment1688violation. Accountability is more than just that.1689    Mr. Issa. OK.1690    Mr. Mayell. Accountability is just a number of different--1691    Mr. Issa. OK. I hear you answer. I hear your answer, but1692you said--1693    Mr. Mayell. It's not just--1694    Mr. Issa. I hear you answer, but I heard nothing when we1695had this tirade about a man seeking to be made whole when he1696felt he was sued inappropriately because $125 million, from the1697gentleman from Georgia, isn't much money. I heard you and I1698hear you loud and clear.1699    You think it's OK to obstruct justice here in America; to,1700in fact, use the First Amendment as a sword instead of a1701scalpel. I'll give you an example.1702    You said that people were being forced to flee the country1703of their choosing, flee the country they call home. Were you1704talking about people who came here illegally? Yes. Were you1705talking about people who came here illegally, and then, may1706have gotten temporary protective status? Yes.1707    Mr. Mayell. I--1708    Mr. Issa. Now, look, it's my time, and if I ask you a1709question, I'll ask you a question.1710    The fact is you've come here for a hearing that was about1711whether or not the First Amendment should have a global reach--1712where there's somebody who says something in America who's a1713citizen of another country, can be arrested in a third country,1714because they don't like what was said in America. Instead of1715being here to testify for that, when the Chair asked you a1716question, you go dumb.1717    Shame on the ACLU. You didn't protect the First Amendment1718under the last four years. Now, you've come here with the1719hypocrisy of all time to pretend that the ACLU hasn't become an1720arm of the Democratic Party; that it hasn't become--1721    Mr. Mayell. No administration has gotten a free pass from1722the ACLU.1723    Mr. Issa. Yes, yes. Well, the last one got a hell of a free1724pass.1725    I'm going to ask the other folks a question, which is a1726question--I'm the Vice Chair of the Foreign Affairs Committee.1727Although this is Judiciary Committee, clearly, the question of1728whether we can work together to enforce it is important.1729    For each of the witnesses who came here to answer questions1730related to the hearing, if the United States uses its global1731reach, power, and influence to enforce that, when the First1732Amendment occurs--when speech occurs in the United States, that1733you are at that point an American person for purposes of1734protection under the First Amendment. If we begin a process of1735retribution, censoring--I'm sorry--sanctioning, whatever it1736takes, even against our best friends in Europe, to say, if you1737say it in the United States, you cannot be prosecuted in1738another country, is that something you believe that we should1739do as a tenet of global democracy that America was founded on?1740We were founded just on the question of rights here. We were1741founded on spreading democracy and freedom around the country.1742    Yes or no, to the greatest extent possible, should we, in1743fact, begin a process of doing what I know the Chair wants to1744do, and I want to do, which is making you a protected person?1745If you say it in America, if you publish it in America, that we1746will not allow you to be prosecuted for that speech in another1747country?1748    I'm going to start with the doctor.1749    Dr. Rasanen. Yes, I have to say that I'm very happy for1750your support for freedom of speech. I noticed that you all have1751raised great respect to the First Amendment. I'm happy for the1752support that you give.1753    Mr. Issa. Mr. Chair, briefly, could the others--1754    Chair Jordan. Yes, Mr. Price and Mr. Linehan.1755    Mr. Linehan. Yes, that would be a great--I think that's a1756great idea. If they won't--we need freedom of speech. It's that1757important. These are--I know there's been efforts to dismiss1758the subjective--the trans issue, but it's a very important1759issue. A lot of children have been hurt. Thousands of children1760have been hurt. They have received double mastectomies--1761    Mr. Issa. Mr. Price, briefly.1762    Mr. Price. Yes, sir, it's a very wise idea, and there are1763plenty of options, I think, that we could discuss.1764    Mr. Issa. Thank you. I yield back.1765    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentlelady1766from Washington is recognized for five minutes.1767    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1768    We have a five-alarm fire here on the First Amendment1769rights in the United States. Even your Republican witnesses1770have said that this is the model. You wish you had it, right,1771Mr. Price?1772    Yet, this Committee is spending no time at all on actually1773looking at that. It's the first time Republicans have wanted to1774import foreigners to talk about any issue.1775    Let me just be clear that, right now, we have a situation1776where Trump's ICE and Border Patrol agents are routinely using1777excessive force, killing two U.S. citizens, using chemical1778weapons, physically assaulting and threatening people, directly1779attacking people who are exercising their free speech rights,1780hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times.1781    With respect to Mr. Price and Mr. Issa who seem to suggest1782that the courts can resolve everything, there is no court order1783that can bring back people from the dead after they've been1784shot.1785    This is a serious issue and I don't want you all to be used1786to further some false thing about how we have to fight for free1787speech rights of Americans in your countries, when we are not1788addressing the First Amendment right here at home.1789    You don't have to just take my word for it. I have a video1790to play. Please play the video.1791    [Video shown.]1792    Ms. Jayapal. Those are just a small fraction of what is1793happening in the United States of America. Be very careful when1794you come here at the request of my Republican colleagues to1795testify on the abuses of First Amendment rights, when we have1796this happening right here in this country. Do not let1797yourselves be used.1798    Mr. Mayell, as Executive Director of the ACLU of Minnesota,1799you and your colleagues have been on the frontlines of Trump's1800assault on Americans' free speech rights. The video we wanted1801is so horrific. Yet, there are so many more terrifying tactics1802that immigration agents and Border Patrol agents are using1803against people of all statuses.1804    In fact, Tom Homan seems to suggest that their intimidation1805and attack tactics on First Amendment protections will1806continue, saying, quote, that they, ``will not draw down on1807personnel providing security and responding to hostile1808incidents until we see a change in what is happening.''1809    Let's be clear that, while he is admitting that Kristi Noem1810has failed in this whole effort, when he says he'll draw down1811700 agents in Minnesota, that's still 2,300 agents that are1812left in Minnesota, four times the size of the local Minneapolis1813police force.1814    Can you just describe how agents are surveilling people and1815the fear that even U.S. citizens face in being threatened at1816their homes?1817    Mr. Mayell. Yes, thank you for the question.1818    I'll tell you about Sue Tincher, who is our lead client in1819our lawsuit Tincher v. Noem. She has been living in Minnesota1820for 30 years. She heard about an ICE activity in her1821neighborhood. She went out to the site, and distance from an1822ICE agent, simply asked the question, ``Are you ICE?''1823    She was then tackled in the snow, arrested, taken to the1824Whipple Detention Center. At that site, she was--had parts of1825her clothes cutoff. She had her purse cutoff, and she had her1826wedding band cutoff.1827    This is not normal, what is happening. I just want to make1828that very clear, that this is not normal law enforcement.1829    Ms. Jayapal. There are cells in Whipple specifically for1830U.S. citizens who are being held, most of whom are then being1831released without charges. I have a series of very quick1832questions.1833    Are you aware of any city in Belgium where 3,000 agents1834have been deployed and those agents are dragging people out of1835their cars?1836    Mr. Mayell. Not that I'm aware of?1837    Ms. Jayapal. Any city in the U.K. where Federal agents1838point firearms at civilians exercising their legal right to1839observe them?1840    Mr. Mayell. In recent--1841    Ms. Jayapal. Quickly, Mr. Mayell.1842    Mr. Mayell. In recent years, not that I'm aware of.1843    Ms. Jayapal. Are you aware of any city in the United--EU1844where a Federal agent has shot and killed a citizen, and the1845leaders of that country justify the killing with no credible1846evidence before any investigation had occurred?1847    Mr. Mayell. In recent moments, not that I'm aware of.1848    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Mayell.1849    I think the situation is clear. This Committee should focus1850on our First Amendment violations right here at home instead of1851pulling people in from other countries. That's where we have to1852protect our democracy and our rights--right here at home.1853    I yield back.1854    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back. The gentleman1855from Texas is recognized.1856    Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair. Mr. Mayell, let me ask you a1857question. Kenneth Moreno Guzman, a criminal alien from Mexico,1858forcibly broke into the backdoor of a family's home on January185912, 2025, a year ago, and proceeded to rape an 11-year-old girl1860and held her 10-year-old sister at knifepoint.1861    Was sought after to be removed by ICE. Should ICE remove1862that individual from the United States?1863    Mr. Mayell. First, I want to say that's tragic. It's1864horrible--1865    Mr. Roy. Yes or no, should ICE carry out its function to1866remove that individual from the United States--1867    Mr. Mayell. I just want to say that every--1868    Mr. Roy. --and get him to law enforcement for prosecution?1869    Mr. Mayell. --every victim deserves justice, as--1870    Mr. Roy. Hector Balderas-Aheelor, a criminal alien from1871Mexico was arrested for a felony hit-and-run that killed an 11-1872year-old boy on Thanksgiving morning. ICE worked to get this1873person into custody. Should ICE do that?1874    Mr. Mayell. This, what I'm talking about is not normal law1875enforcement. I want to be really clear about that.1876    Mr. Roy. Should, yes or now, should ICE remove these1877individuals who are a danger to the American people? Yes or no?1878    Mr. Mayell. I am here to speak about--1879    Mr. Roy. Yes or no, should ICE carry out--1880    Mr. Mayell. --what is happening--1881    Mr. Roy. --its function in law enforcement to remove these1882people who are killing Americans? Yes or no?1883    Mr. Mayell. ICE has the ability to do its law enforcement1884activity. What I'm talking about is not normal--1885    Mr. Roy. ICE should carry out its law enforcement function1886to remove people who are criminal--who are harming the American1887people, such as the next person. Marvin Fernando Morales Ortez,1888a criminal legal alien from El Salvador, brutally murdered a1889resident inside his home in Reston, Virginia, just one day1890after sanctuary politicians refused to honor the ICE arrest1891detainer and released his from jail. That's what we've been1892dealing with. That was the product of the previous1893administration.1894    Now, we're trying to remove dangerous actors, and you want1895to turn that into some sort of cause celebre.1896    Mr. Mayell. I'm trying to speak--1897    Mr. Roy. Meanwhile, meanwhile, meanwhile--1898    Mr. Mayell. --about something that is not normal law.1899    Mr. Roy. It's my time. It's my time, Mr. Mayell. Meanwhile,1900Mr. Price, in the United Kingdom, do you not have your own1901level of immigration problems?1902    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.1903    Mr. Roy. Right now, are there not significant impacts by a1904massive increase in the Islamic population in London and1905throughout the entire U.K.? Now, is it not true that there are1906significant questions about whether the U.K. will adopt anti-1907Muslim hate speech provisions.1908    For example, a draft definition that says, ``Anti-Muslim1909hostilities. Engaging in or encouraging criminal acts,1910including acts of violence, vandalism''--but here's the key1911part--``that is harassment/intimation which is directed at1912Muslims, or those perceived to be Muslim because of their1913religion/ethnicity. Also, the prejudicial stereotyping and1914racialization of Muslims.''1915    Is that kind of language also not going to interfere with1916free speech?1917    Mr. Price. It's very serious. We have a client who was1918arrested for preaching the gospel, and on the arrest, one of1919the arresting officers said, ``You shouldn't be saying those1920kind of things during Ramadan.''1921    Mr. Roy. There is a direct connection to dealing with1922immigration policy and what we're dealing with from a First1923Amendment standpoint.1924    Now, I want to direct some questions to Dr. Rasanen.1925    First, thank you. Thank you for standing up. Thank you for1926standing up in the face of the tyrannical interference with1927your ability to carry out your faith and speak freely about it.1928    As you know, a number of us have been watching this very1929closely and we are proud of what you have been doing to send a1930message around the globe.1931    Let me ask you just a couple of quick questions.1932    Is it correct that the alleged crimes against you, that1933were charged against you, consisted solely of, as you described1934before, a Bible verse posted on social media, comments during1935radio debate, and a religious pamphlet published years earlier?1936    Dr. Rasanen. No, I don't think that it is right because I1937have not insulted anyone. My speech has been peaceful.1938    Mr. Roy. At no point did you call for violence, coercion,1939or unlawful conduct?1940    Dr. Rasanen. No, no. I have told all the time that all1941people are equal and we all are sinners, and we all are in need1942of Christ. I do not insult any--1943    Mr. Roy. Is it true that prosecutors reportedly compared1944portions of the Bible to extremist literature when they were1945going after you?1946    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. The prosecutor thought up charges because1947of my five Twitter update. The main focus was on the Bible1948verses.1949    Mr. Roy. Has the prosecution reportedly offered you a deal1950to recant your statements in exchange for avoiding prosecution?1951Is that accurate?1952    Dr. Rasanen. Already in the police investigation the police1953have gaven me two weeks' time to take away my writings and I1954said that I will stand up before these meetings.1955    Mr. Roy. My final point is, the trial court unanimously1956acquitted you, correct?1957    Dr. Rasanen. Pardon?1958    Mr. Roy. The trial court unanimously acquitted you,1959correct?1960    Dr. Rasanen. Yes, yes.1961    Mr. Roy. The acquittal was later affirmed by an Appellate1962court. Despite that, prosecutors appealed again to the Supreme1963court in your country, keeping you under legal threat for1964years, even now, is that correct? For simply speaking about1965your faith, putting it in a pamphlet years before, that's what1966is occurring? Is that correct?1967    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.1968    Mr. Roy. Well, we thank you for that. I would like to1969insert into the record, Mr. Chair, a letter that I signed and1970sent to Dr. Rasanen and some others, dated May 21, 2024, on1971this point.1972    I wrote an op-ed called, ``The War on Religious Freedom: We1973Must Stand up for Finnish Christians Facing Trial for Their1974Faith,'' in which we described this, that I jointly authored1975with Tony Perkins.1976    I would like to include, also, several letters that I could1977go through one by one, but, for the sake of time, I would just1978like to insert them in a group form; that are signed by a host1979of our colleagues; that were directed to Dr. Rasanen about her1980courage and her faith, letters that we've sent since 2021,19812022, 2023, and 2024, encouraging her and others to stand up.1982I'd like to insert those into the record without objection.1983    Chair Jordan. Without objection. Doctor, God bless you for1984your courage as well.1985    Dr. Rasanen. Thank you.1986    Chair Jordan. I think the gentlelady from Washington has a1987UC.1988    Ms. Jayapal. I do. I have a couple of UCs here, Mr. Chair.1989    First, from The New York Times, I believe, about the way in1990which the Trump Administration is smearing and humiliating1991citizens to influence public opinion, while sending a warning1992to other critics to beware of crossing the administration.1993    It's called, ``They Couldn't Break Me': A Protestor, the1994White House and a Doctored Photo.''1995    Second, from CBS News, titled, ``ICE Agents Wrongfully1996Detained U.S. Citizen in Minneapolis for Looking Somali.''1997    Third, the BBC, ``New Jersey Mayor Arrested in Protest at1998Migrant Center.''1999    Chair Jordan. Without objection.2000    Ms. Jayapal. I believe that's it. Thank you.2001    Chair Jordan. Is it the gentlelady from Vermont? Or Ms.2002Scanlon?2003    Ms. Scanlon. I'm next.2004    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from Pennsylvania is2005recognized.2006    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I understand that our Republican2007colleagues would prefer to distract and divide with a hearing2008that completely misses the moment--just days after armed and2009masked U.S. agents have shot and killed two citizens on the2010streets of an American city. It's important that we refocus on2011the threats to civil rights and liberties that are occurring2012right here right now in America.2013    I want to thank Mr. Mayell for bringing firsthand testimony2014to Congress about what is happening on the streets of2015Minneapolis. Because the people of Minneapolis have risen to2016this moment and understand it better than everyone.2017    The White House has unleashed armed and masked Federal2018agents onto our streets to terrorize our communities. If you2019think it doesn't affect you, think again.2020    Masked government agents are kidnapping people on the2021streets of American cities, citizens and noncitizens alike;2022breaking into their cars and homes; holding them at gunpoint;2023raiding homes without warrants--in violation of the Fourth2024Amendment.2025    The government agents are surveilling, threatening, and2026assaulting Americans when they peacefully observe and protest2027these actions are in violation of the First Amendment.2028    They're detaining children and adults with no criminal2029records in nightmarish conditions are in violation of every2030standard of human decency.2031    In the last 28 days, Trump's paramilitary goons have2032violently and lawlessly shot and killed two Americans. In the2033aftermath, the administration tried to smear the dead2034Americans' actions and characters and convince the world not to2035believe what we saw with our own eyes.2036    Throughout our government--not foreign governments--has2037tried to silence those who expose or criticize those excesses--2038arresting and threatening elected officials, journalists, and2039concerned citizens.2040    Why is Republican leadership of this Committee and Congress2041hauling the Department of Homeland Security and Kristi Noem2042before this Committee? Why aren't they conducting an2043investigation into the killing of American citizens and the use2044of excessive force by ICE and CBP? Why aren't they doing their2045jobs to demand accountability?2046    Americans are outraged. I don't understand why my2047Republican colleagues are not. Instead, they're trying to2048deflect attention and tell us that Europe poses the biggest2049threat to Americans' rights. It's insulting because it is2050really clear that right now the most serious threat to American2051civil rights and civil liberties is coming from our own2052government.2053    Now, Mr. Mayell, we've seen ICE agents conducting2054warrantless arrests. A particularly egregious example occurred2055in Minnesota when masked agents broke into a man's home, held2056him at gunpoint, and dragged him out into the freezing cold in2057his underwear and a pair of Crocs--only to realize he was an2058American citizen with no criminal record, and the guy they were2059actually looking for was already in prison.2060    How would the Fourth Amendment address this situation? Why2061is it important that we have warrants with respect to searches2062of people's homes, et cetera?2063    Mr. Mayell. The Founders ensured that the Fourth Amendment2064places significant limits on the government's ability to enter2065our homes, search our persons, and subject us to arrest. One of2066the clearest rules under the Fourth Amendment is that Federal2067agents just can't break into your home and arrest you without a2068judicial warrant. A judicial warrant is a critical component to2069ensuring accountability.2070    That is what we are seeing more and more that is missing.2071We are seeing on the ground the use of administrative warrants,2072which do not allow someone, an agent, to enter your home and2073arrest you.2074    Ms. Scanlon. If a judicial warrant is sought, doesn't the2075judge require the government to show that they have the right2076house, and the right person, and there is reasonable--that2077there is probable cause to suspect that they are going to find2078the person they are looking for there?2079    Mr. Mayell. That's right. That's that layer of2080accountability that comes into showing that you are not just2081going into someone's home based on a limited amount of2082suspicion or, in certain cases; in these cases, racial2083profiling or just thoughts that this person might not be here2084legally.2085    Ms. Scanlon. Would you agree that when folks argue that2086immigrants don't have constitutional rights or immigrants don't2087have the right to demand a warrant before their home is2088searched, not only is that contrary to the Constitution, but if2089you take that position, then you can end up with the situation2090that we had in Minnesota, where a citizen's constitutional2091rights are being violated, because there was no due process, no2092probable cause, no warrant?2093    Mr. Mayell. Our constitutional rights and the rights of the2094Bill of Rights apply to us all.2095    Ms. Scanlon. Explicitly, the Fourth Amendment says ``all2096persons.'' It doesn't say citizens, does it?2097    Mr. Mayell. That is correct.2098    Ms. Scanlon. OK. Are you familiar with the opinion by the2099Texas judge in the case involving the boy in the blue, long2100bunny hat? Didn't the judge there say that using an2101administrative warrant is like the fox guarding the hen house?2102    Chair Jordan. OK. You can answer that real quickly, Mr.2103Mayell.2104    Mr. Mayell. We are really concerned, very concerned, about2105the erosion of the Fourth Amendment. I know that this is2106something that is dear to many people on this Committee. The2107use of an administrative warrant is a significant erosion if it2108is being used to go into homes to arrest people.2109    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time has expired.2110    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I have a U.C.2111    Chair Jordan. OK, go ahead.2112    Ms. Scanlon. I seek unanimous consent to introduce a2113Guardian British Newspaper article, ``Eight people have died in2114dealings with ICE so far in 2026. These are their stories.'' It2115is dated January 28th.2116    Chair Jordan. Without objection. The gentleman from Arizona2117is recognized.2118    Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Mr. Mayell, isn't it true2119that there are constraints on the use of First Amendment speech2120rights?2121    Mr. Mayell. I mean, so, yes. In the First Amendment--2122    Mr. Biggs. The First Amendment, there are constraints on2123it, right? It is permissible for individuals to protest in2124America, right?2125    Mr. Mayell. There are rights to protest in the United2126States of America.2127    Mr. Biggs. Right. I would--2128    Mr. Mayell. People can even--the courts have found--2129    Mr. Biggs. These are yes or no. You don't need to go2130through it.2131    Mr. Mayell. Sure.2132    Mr. Biggs. If you filibuster, which sometimes people like2133to do, we will never get through this. I am going to make sure2134we get through it, no matter how much overtime I go. Just like2135the Democrats are.2136    People can even video police actions in public spaces,2137right? Courts have held that?2138    Mr. Mayell. Yes.2139    Mr. Biggs. Multiple courts, right?2140    Mr. Mayell. Yes.2141    Mr. Biggs. There is a caveat to that right, isn't there?2142There is a list of constraints even there, right?2143    For instance, you cannot videotape police activity if there2144is a reasonable expectation of privacy by anyone there, right?2145    Mr. Mayell. I am not following that.2146    Mr. Biggs. That is what the courts say.2147    Mr. Mayell. I am not following that.2148    Mr. Biggs. You have a right to videotape law enforcement2149when law enforcement is conducting its activity in public2150spaces. In public spaces, right?2151    Mr. Mayell. That is wrong.2152    Mr. Biggs. If there is a reasonable expectation of privacy,2153courts have said that you can't go beyond that. They have also2154said you can't interfere with or obstruct police activities,2155right?2156    Mr. Mayell. The First Amendment does not protect2157interference with law enforcement obstruction.2158    Mr. Biggs. Right? You don't need to repeat everything I2159say. You can either agree or disagree, that is fine.2160    If there is an intention to interfere or if the individual2161should have known that they were interfering, their right to2162videotape is not protected. Isn't that true? Just answer the2163question.2164    Mr. Mayell. Well, the issue that is happening is when there2165is unlawful speech, when it is not protected, it--2166    Mr. Biggs. Does the court say that?2167    Mr. Mayell. It does not give law enforcement the right to2168wildly pepper spray.2169    Mr. Biggs. Sir. Sir.2170    Mr. Mayell. It does not give them the right to throw tear2171gas.2172    Mr. Biggs. OK. You want to pontificate. We realize that you2173were brought here to pontificate the Democrats deal.2174    Sir, you are--2175    Mr. Mayell. I was brought here to tell you what is2176happening on the ground in Minnesota.2177    Mr. Biggs. Arguing instead of--2178    Mr. Mayell. It is happening and it is being recognized by2179Republicans and Democrats. Law enforcement--2180    Mr. Biggs. Sir. Sir.2181    Chair Jordan. The time belongs to the gentleman, the time2182belongs to the gentleman from Arizona.2183    Mr. Biggs. Yes. I am asking you questions. You answer them.2184You can agree or disagree. These are very simple. I think you2185will get them, even, because they are yes or no questions.2186    The individual cannot videotape if it actually it hinders2187public safety. Isn't that true? You are not allowed to2188interfere with law enforcement?2189    Mr. Mayell. You can if you are--2190    Mr. Biggs. If you interfere--2191    Mr. Mayell. You are talking about a hypothetical scenario.2192    Mr. Biggs. If you are in--2193    Mr. Mayell. You are talking about laws.2194    Mr. Biggs. If you are impeding public safety, courts have2195held you can't get there. Apparently, I can't ask you2196questions, because you are not going to answer truthfully. Here2197we go. Here is the deal.2198    Mr. Mayell. I have answered that.2199    Mr. Biggs. Here is the deal.2200    Mr. Mayell. I have answered that. You cannot imply--2201    Mr. Biggs. Here is the deal. It is my time. I would like to2202reclaim it. Here is the deal. If you are impeding public2203safety, the courts have said you cannot continue to videotape.2204    The courts have said the police can set distance parameters2205that the public must stand back from, to preserve public safety2206or to prevent damage to a crime scene. You would agree with2207that much at least, right?2208    Mr. Mayell. Well, but--2209    Mr. Biggs. Yes.2210    Mr. Mayell. There are limits to protected speech.2211    Mr. Biggs. You can't enter public, excuse me, private2212property. You can only do it on public property, correct?2213    Mr. Mayell. There are limits to protected speech. Your2214hypotheticals are really broad.2215    Mr. Biggs. These are court cases. You can't trespass2216either, right? You cannot violate someone's privacy rights.2217That is all true.2218    Mr. Mayell. Yes.2219    Mr. Biggs. That is true. Let's watch a video really quick2220here of what is going on in Minnesota. This is not peaceful2221protest.2222    [Video shown.]2223    Mr. Biggs. All right. What you got, what you have there, in2224that first scene, is not peaceful protest. That is not2225protected speech.2226    If you look at the statute, and I assume that you have Mr.2227Mayell, if you look at the statutes here and the courts have2228upheld it, something called administrative warrants, where you2229have a reasonable suspicion to believe somebody is in this2230country illegally, you are allowed to make the stop.2231    You are allowed to make the arrest. You are allowed to2232presume that way. Reasonable suspicion is the standard under2233INA, Sec-tion 236.2234    When I look at this and I listen to you, and I am looking2235at it, and I am sorry you folks have come here, you have seen2236the real attack is coming from the Left, on speech rights in2237this country.2238    Here is the beautiful part about it, because they have2239conviction and they have so much passion, they think they are2240correct. They think that it is true. Much of what we have heard2241today is inaccurate, false, and wrong. Here is the bottom line,2242conviction and passion does not make you correct. Sometimes it2243just makes you crazy.2244    I will yield back.2245    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The Chair now2246recognizes the gentlelady from Georgia.2247    Ms. McBath. Thank you, Mr. Chair. In part one of this2248hearing earlier, I asked our witness, Professor David Kay, what2249this country would look like if the Majority did not join the2250Minority in checking First Amendment violations committed by2251the government.2252    We were warned that there would be dark days ahead. Well,2253sadly, we are in those dark days right now.2254    This government was built to include checks and balances, a2255practice that has protected this democracy for the last 2402256years. Democrats have done our part in honoring that2257constitutional intent.2258    Whether in the Majority or in the Minority, we have taken2259the time to ensure that we are truly doing our job, providing2260oversight to other branches regardless of the party that is2261governing in the White House. Will my colleagues across the2262aisle commit to doing the same?2263    Secretary Noem has done nothing to reign in her agents, to2264remind or even to inform them that it is unconstitutional to2265impede on First Amendment rights.2266    We have seen countless videos and justified outrage after2267Federal Immigration Enforcement agents shot and killed a 37-2268year-old woman, Renee Nicole Goode, a mother, a poet, and a2269writer.2270    Operation Metro Surge continued and protestors continued to2271exercise their rights. Not even three weeks later, 37-year-old2272ICU nurse Alex Pretti was helping others and recording on his2273phone, when officers surrounded him and proceeded to shoot him227411 times in the back.2275    When protestors are literally being shot in the street as2276they exercise their First Amendment rights, gunned down while2277peacefully protesting heightened enforcement operations,2278targeted raids that break up families, and watch in the2279oppression of their communities by agents of their own Federal2280Government. I know for a fact that these situations are what we2281should be talking about, not Europe, our own. We should be2282focusing on the government agencies here at home that are2283impeding the constitutional rights of our citizens.2284    From the First Amendment to the 14th Amendment, even due2285process rights, right here in America, are being violated. So2286much so, that a government attorney asked to be held in2287contempt, just to get sleep, because ICE arrests have been so2288sloppy that her office has become overwhelmed with ICE, because2289ICE complies with the flooded court orders coming in.2290    Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous consent request. I would like2291to enter into the record this article from Fox News, entitled2292``ICE Attorney, this job sucks.''2293    Chair Jordan. Without objection.2294    Ms. McBath. Thank you. In which attorney Julie Lee, she2295states, and I quote, ``The system sucks. This job sucks. I'm2296trying with every breath I have, to get you what I need.''2297    Chair Jordan. Without objection.2298    Ms. McBath. Thank you. People across our country are taking2299to the streets, asking for justice, calling for Federal law2300enforcement to leave their communities, and they are demanding2301accountability.2302    This continued threat to our First Amendment rights extends2303to voting and elections. My home State of Georgia Federal2304Election Investigations and Enforcement actions have created2305fear, confusion, and hesitation among voters and election2306workers alike, all for an election that was decided over five2307years ago, over a vote count that leaders from the sitting2308President's own party have affirmed to be lawful and correct.2309    These tactics are meant to scare voters and make them worry2310that their vote, and therefore their voice, is not going to2311matter. Volunteers may step back rather than step forward, that2312is how suppression works in practice. Not only through the laws2313on the books, but through fear, and discourages participation.2314    Mr. Mayell, you have said that Minnesotans are foregoing2315basic daily tasks, their children are not even going to school.2316If conditions persist, how could the government's response to2317citizens exercising their First Amendment rights, impact on our2318voter turnout and our upcoming elections?2319    Mr. Mayell. Thank you for the question. I can tell you2320right now that the feeling in Minnesota is one of disruptions.2321Normal day-to-day activities, and we are talking about work,2322groceries, going to school, have been disrupted significantly.2323    If we continue to have this presence of this Federal force,2324life will continue to be disrupted.2325    Ms. McBath. Thank you for that. I contend to say that there2326are going to even be darker days in our future.2327    I yield.2328    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields. The gentleman from2329Texas is recognized.2330    Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Mr. Chair. We have had a lot of2331discussion here today about DSA, DMA, and their effect on2332American free speech.2333    While these are very important issues, I also want to2334emphasize the danger of other EU overreach that directly2335affects my constituents in the great State of Texas.2336    The Corporate Sustainability Reporting Directive and the2337Corporate Sustainability Due Diligence Directive, the CSRD and2338the CS3D, are nothing short of a full-blown assault on American2339sovereignty and energy independence.2340    These extraterritorial ESG mandates force Texas oil and gas2341companies to comply with burdensome rule reporting and due2342diligence rules tied to the environmental treaties we never,2343ever ratified.2344    With over 4,000 U.S. companies affected, including2345thousands in our energy sector, these laws impose massive2346compliance costs, deter investments in LNG exports, where2347America leads the world, and threatens thousands of high paying2348Texas jobs in drilling, refining, and clean energy projects.2349    The CS3D could cost the Texas economy over $68 billion in2350one-time compliance costs, and over $1 trillion in potential2351loss revenue. In my State's manufacturing sector alone, one-2352time compliance costs are forecast at $26 billion, along with2353ongoing annual compliance costs.2354    The CS3D could cost over 63,000 Texas jobs, which is the2355equivalent of raising my State's unemployment by 0.4 percent.2356Payroll losses could exceed $6 billion, and over 490,000 Texas2357small businesses will be most affected since they lacked their2358sources to2359comply.2360    Exxon's CEO rightly called the CS3D the worst legislation2361he has ever seen. The ironic thing is, Europe is actually2362shooting itself in the foot by driving away innovation,2363accelerating deindustrial-ization, and chasing off key energy2364suppliers.2365    I am glad President Trump is taking strong action by2366flagging these rules as threats to our trading relationship,2367securing commitments to limit their undue burdens on American2368companies, and standing ready with tariffs and every tool2369necessary to defend our innovators from foreign overreach.2370    Mr. Chair, I have a UC request. I would like to enter it2371into the record, a January 2026 report by Hudson Institute2372Senior Fellow, Harold Furchtgott-Roth, ``Quantifying costs of2373the EU's CS3D on U.S. industry.''2374    Chair Jordan. OK. Without objection.2375    Mr. Nehls. Legislative responses, we have a great Member,2376you heard from him earlier, Rep. Fitzgerald out of Wisconsin,2377H.R. 4279, his legislation, Protect U.S. companies from Foreign2378Regulatory Taxation Act, would prevent U.S. courts from2379recognizing foreign judgments under rules like the CSRD and2380CS3D.2381    Mr. Price, what additional steps can Congress take to2382shield American businesses from these extra territorial ESG2383mandates?2384    Mr. Price. Well, sir, the aggregation of more and more of2385these regulations, and, as you say correctly, extractive2386industries, but also in the tech space, are part of a concerted2387effort by the European Union to make the world in its image,2388the so-called Brussels Effect.2389    You are correct that passing legislation here that would2390restrict the ability to enforce these decisions, is a very wise2391step.2392    Ultimately, what will have to happen is using diplomatic2393pressure and indeed, as this Administration has done, start to2394name names about the people who are forcing these things on2395U.S. companies.2396    The cumulative effect of this is extraordinary. As I was2397saying, it is not just simply the Digital Service Act, but all2398these regulations, and then expanding even further into the2399mandates you are describing, are trying too effectively, create2400a trade barrier regulatory-wise, against the United States. It2401is not explicitly a tariff barrier, but it has the same effect.2402    Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Mr. Price, for being here. I yield2403the balance. I appreciate it.2404    Chair Jordan. Mr. Price, is government the biggest purveyor2405of misinformation?2406    Mr. Price. I certainly think, sir, we have seen during the2407last number of years, and particularly in COVID, that to be2408very much the case.2409    Chair Jordan. Indeed.2410    Mr. Price. The European Union as well.2411    Chair Jordan. Do you agree Mr. Linehan?2412    Mr. Linehan. Yes. I think that often by--oh, sorry. Yes.2413Often by reasons, or often by means of omission, yes. It is the2414things they don't talk about.2415    Just as today, people haven't been talking about the2416Minnesota fraud that kicked this whole thing off. The2417journalist on X who exposed it, Nick Shirley.2418    It is what they don't say that is often where they are2419dishonest.2420    Chair Jordan. Our government actually tried to set up,2421well, actually not tried, did set up a Disinformation2422Governance Board.2423    A bunch of bureaucrats are going to tell you what you can2424say, what you can tweet, what you can post, and what you can2425read, frightening. That is the same. That dynamic is what we2426are concerned about.2427    I bet even the guy from the Minnesota ACLU, Mr. Mayell,2428would probably say that this is not a good idea to have a board2429tell you what you can say, or some bureaucratic board, tell you2430what is true and what isn't true.2431    Typically--well, I am over time. We will get back to that.2432We will go to the gentlelady from Vermont is recognized.2433    Ms. Balint. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank the witnesses for2434being here.2435    I wanted to just start by sort of level setting here. Where2436we are at right now in this country, it is not good. It is not2437good.2438    I can talk to the European guests here. My dad was born in2439Europe, came here after losing his father in the Holocaust.2440Built a new life here. Understand in the most deepest way, the2441importance of protecting our civil rights and civil liberties.2442    At a very young age, I was taught that rights do not erode2443overnight. It happens little by little while you are not even2444sure that it is happening. Norms are upended. Groups are2445scapegoated.2446    When I look, and I have spent time both in Minneapolis-St.2447Paul, and I have spent time in Chicago, and what we are seeing2448on the ground, is absolutely terrifying.2449    You have members of the clergy being pepper balled in the2450head while they are peacefully praying and protesting in front2451of immigration facilities.2452    You have members of the press being arrested. Other members2453of the press being roughed up, even after they are identifying2454themselves as members of the press.2455    You have election offices being raided. You have Americans'2456First Amendment, Second Amendment, and Fourth Amendment rights2457being eroded. You have citizens being arrested.2458    Even before the murders of Renee Goode and Alex Pretti, we2459had documented over 170 American citizens who had been arrested2460and detained by ICE and Border Patrol. It has gotten worse2461since then.2462    When we talk about ChongLy Scott Thao, who was arrested,2463Patty O'Keefe, Aliyah Rahman, Sue Tincher, and we can go on and2464on.2465    We take this very seriously. I understand that you care2466deeply about First Amendment rights. The battle that we have2467right now with all due respect, is not about what is happening2468in Europe. It is what is happening right here in our cities.2469    I am just so shocked that in the last few days too, we have2470a President now saying that we should nationalize our election,2471in clear violation of our Constitution, and not hearing2472anything from the Members in this Committee about that. It is2473shocking.2474    Now, as I said, I have been to both Minneapolis and I have2475been to Chicago, and I have seen the violations of our civil2476Constitution, and honestly, our humanitarian rights.2477    Mr. Mayell, I was able to meet with you there. I just want2478to go through this again to reestablish what it is that2479Americans are allowed to do.2480    Does the First Amendment give people a right to film2481Federal Immigration agents on our streets?2482    Mr. Mayell. Yes, it does.2483    Ms. Balint. Does the First Amendment give people a right to2484tell their neighbors and others around them that ICE raids are2485happening?2486    Mr. Mayell. You are allowed to alert other people and2487notify people of law enforcement activity, and particularly2488aggressive law enforcement activity.2489    Ms. Balint. Does the First Amendment still apply to apps or2490social media posts?2491    Mr. Mayell. The First Amendment applies to everyone however2492they choose to speak.2493    Ms. Balint. Because that is what we are here to talk about,2494right? As my Republican colleagues have made clear today, they2495care deeply about First Amendment rights as it relates to2496online content.2497    Big tech is actually at the center of this issue. The Trump2498Administration has a two-part strategy right now, and both2499parts require big tech support.2500    (1) The first part is to censor what is online, force the2501companies to pull down the content showing what is really2502happening on American streets.2503    (2) To craft a message that will recruit more agents,2504regardless of qualifications, who are willing to carry out2505atrocities on Americans.2506    We know that Apple has removed apps dedicated to tracking2507ICE raids. Apparently, under government pressure, Meta has2508blocked apps seeking to identify government agents. These2509companies are folding under pressure from this Administration.2510    The press has reported that both Google and Meta have taken2511millions of dollars from DHS to display content with clear2512connections to White nationalism.2513    Since last summer, DHS has reportedly spent half a million2514dollars on recruitment advertisements. Many of these have clear2515connections to White nationalist ideology, including phrases2516like, ``we will have our home again.''2517    This is happening at the same time that DHS has lowered2518hiring standards. I have a letter along with my colleague on2519this Committee, Representative Jayapal, that we sent to Meta2520and Google demanding answers regarding the work with the2521Department of Homeland Security in recruiting immigration2522agents for Trump's assault on American cities.2523    We are demanding that these companies provide us with2524answers to why they are choosing to platform this hatred, this2525scapegoating, and are complicit in what, I believe, is2526President Trump's authoritarian work.2527    The dangers are right here at home. That is why we are2528speaking up in this Committee. I yield back.2529    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.2530    I should have mentioned this earlier, and I apologize, if2531any of you need a restroom break, just let us know, or let some2532of your team behind us let us know. We will be able to do that.2533    We are going to go to the gentleman from North Carolina,2534Mr. Harris.2535    Mr. Harris. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank you all of you on2536the panel for being here to share today.2537    We have heard a lot from your testimony. Dr. Rasanen, I2538want come to you. What Bible verse did you post that caused you2539to be criminally prosecuted?2540    Dr. Rasanen. Thank you. It was from the Book of Romans,2541first chapter, and verses 24-27.2542    Mr. Harris. OK. Could you help me know why you chose that2543particular passage to post?2544    Dr. Rasanen. The Apostle Paul teaches in these verses about2545the marriage and about the same sex relationships. He defines2546them as sinful and shameful.2547    Mr. Harris. What message were you trying to convey in that?2548    Dr. Rasanen. I wanted to make it clear that what if the2549leadership of the church is supporting the pride event, it is2550in contradiction with its verses, the Bible.2551    Mr. Harris. OK. After you posted the Bible verse, if I2552understand correctly, you were charged under Finland's War2553Crimes and Crimes Against Humanity Law?2554    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. In that section, we have a law about2555aggregation against minorities.2556    Mr. Harris. Wow. Well, as a pastor for 37 years now myself,2557to think of someone that can be criminally charged for posting2558a Bible verse in the EU and NATO country, worries me deeply.2559    As you have already heard from this panel today, God bless2560you. God bless you for coming here today to share your story.2561    My prayer is that it causes people to wake up to the2562threats that we are facing from those who seek to undermine our2563God-given right to free expression. We even saw just in a piece2564of the video clip that Mr. Biggs shared, of when a church was2565stormed right there in Minneapolis.2566    Leaving families scattering, and all kinds of threats that2567were felt that day. Still dealing with that even now.2568    I also want to State to Mr. Price, one of the things that2569brings Western countries together is our shared values. In my2570view, the right to freedom of speech is one of these values.2571    While I understand our European counterparts have not2572always been as gung-ho perhaps, about free speech is us in the2573United States, I never thought in 2026, we would be seeing2574people jailed for posting Bible verses or even crass jokes.2575    Thankfully, high profile Americans are calling out our2576friends for this madness. In February 2025, Vice President2577Vance gave a high-profile speech at the Munich Security2578Conference, in which he urged Europeans to turn away from2579censorship and re-embrace fundamental free speech principles.2580    What effect, Mr. Price, do you think the Vice President's2581words had, and what signal did they send to Europe?2582    Mr. Price. They were very impactful, because the2583Administration was shining a light on the nature of the2584problem. This is going to get worse.2585    We have people being arrested for praying silently in the2586U.K. We have people being prosecuted for posting Bible verses,2587for making jokes.2588    The European Union is attempting now to export that through2589the Digital Services Act, and force it on Americans, these2590European laws.2591    They are not going to back down easily, because as you can2592see with the approach they have taken to X, when a company2593commits itself to free speech, they have to stop that, because2594of, as I say, they see it as an existential threat.2595    I am ashamed to say as an Irishman, my own country is2596playing a central role in this, because most of these large2597U.S. platforms are headquartered in Dublin. It is the Irish2598regulator that is cooperating closely with the European2599Commission enforcing this.2600    As I said on the last occasion, I really hope that the2601United States, using its diplomatic channels, brings this home2602to the Irish government. That forcing American companies to2603police American speech, and generally to police anyone's2604speech, is wrong.2605    That if they escalate in this direction, it is going to2606cause significant additional problems.2607    Mr. Harris. Well, I applaud our Vice President for his2608speech. I hope we can continue to remind our friends and allies2609of the value of free speech and expression.2610    Unfortunately, we have heard in today's hearing, we have a2611long way to go. Mr. Chair, I yield back to you, the balance of2612my time.2613    Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman. We will, we will2614just--2615    Ms. Balint. Mr. Chair, I have a UC.2616    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from Vermont is recognized.2617    Ms. Balint. Mr. Chair, I ask unanimous consent to introduce2618for the record, a letter from Reverend Jered Weber-Johnson of2619St. John the Evangelist Episcopal Church in Saint Paul,2620Minnesota, which calls what is happening in Minnesota,2621``unlawful and unconstitutional, as well as a blasphemy against2622God.''2623    Chair Jordan. Without objection.2624    Ms. Jayapal. Mr. Chair?2625    Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from Washington is recognized.2626    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask unanimous consent2627to enter into the record, an article from The Hill, entitled,2628``Poll: 62 percent think ICE efforts go too far.'' That2629includes 92 percent of Democrats, 65 percent of Independents,2630and even 30 percent of Republicans, a 10-point shift in2631Republican's attitudes to ICE.2632    Chair Jordan. Without objection. Mr. Raskin?2633    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I ask for unanimous2634consent to enter into the record, this Minnesota Star Tribune2635article from February 2, 2026, titled, ``Another Wave of2636Departures in Minnesota's U.S. Attorney's Office, as 142637Additional Attorneys Left This Year.''2638    Chair Jordan. Without objection. The gentleman from2639Illinois is recognized.2640    Mr. Garcia. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I join my Democratic2641colleagues in denouncing this sham hearing, which is an effort2642to distract from the brutal assault on First Amendment rights2643by the Trump Administration and its lackeys in Congress.2644    The greatest threat to free speech and dissent is the2645Republican Party today. We are in the midst of an authoritarian2646crackdown on the First Amendment, led by ICE and CBP agents who2647are murdering American citizens in peaceful protests, while the2648President threatens to sue a comedian over a joke.2649    That ain't funny. These attacks have escalated, but they2650are not new. Republicans have gutted funding for colleges and2651universities while trying to dictate the academic content and2652make it more Right-wing.2653    They have weaponized the immigrant system against Mahmoud2654Khalil, Rumeus Ostrid, and others who dared to speak for2655Palestinian rights.2656    They have literally banned the Federal Government from2657using words and phrases they are terrified of, like women. Oh2658my God, diverse, holy cow.2659    Affordable housing, who would ponder that? Clean water, you2660want to drink dirty? Equality, think of that. I thought all2661people were created equal.2662    These attacks have not spared the Chicago-land region.2663Republicans have attacked Chicago and Illinois for our2664welcoming policies and illegally tried to withhold funding2665based on decisions by local officials.2666    They funded mass death squads that killed, in my district,2667Silverio Villegas Gonzalez, shot Marimar Martinez, who was here2668in the U.S. Senate yesterday, and spread violence and terror in2669our streets.2670    As our neighbors exercised their First Amendment rights to2671peacefully protest the severe abuses at the Broadview facility,2672they were met with brutal repression by the Federal Government.2673    A pastor was shot in the head with pepper balls, right2674adjacent to my district. Journalists were tear gassed and six2675protestors, including local elected officials, were arrested on2676vague conspiracy charges without substantial evidence. These2677charges and the actions of Federal agents overall constitute a2678fascist attack on democracy.2679    We are not backing down. We continue to nonviolently2680protest, and the courts have struck down the attacks on2681welcoming policies, and the extreme use of force against2682protestors and journalists at Broadview.2683    Mr. Mayell, thank you for being here today and for the work2684that you have done keeping Minnesotans' safe. I deeply2685appreciated your testimony at the field hearing that many of us2686attended in Minneapolis a couple of weeks ago.2687    Can you speak to how the Administration's occupation in our2688neighborhoods, in our cities, and our basic freedoms has2689escalated over the past year from Los Angeles to Chicago to the2690Twin Cities?2691    Mr. Mayell. Yes. That you can look at what is happening in2692Minnesota as part of a broader pattern of abuse that has been,2693and brutality that has been documented in court after court2694across the country.2695    That includes the targeting of protesters and observers,2696and also the targeting of immigrants, and the due process2697rights that are being violated in the process of arrests and of2698apprehending immigrants.2699    That is a really important piece of this conversation here,2700is the racial profiling and the warrantless arrests that are2701happening on the streets of Minnesota right now.2702    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Mayell, can you talk about what you take2703away from the things that have mobilized people in Minneapolis,2704like we haven't seen anywhere else in the country? What is at2705the heart of it?2706    Mr. Mayell. What I can say is that the people of Minnesota2707have been disrupted, are shocked, are in a State of grief, and2708they are opposing what they are seeing as unlawful,2709unconstitutional, un-American activity on their streets.2710    This goes across party lines, across employment. You are2711seeing it with law enforcement. You are seeing it with elected2712leaders.2713    Again, this is not normal law enforcement. This is not2714normal what is happening in Minnesota, and it should alarm2715everybody.2716    Chair Jordan. The time for the gentleman has expired. The2717gentleman yields back. The Chair now recognizes the gentleman2718from North Carolina.2719    Mr. Knott. Thank you, Mr. Chair. It is worth noting, just2720for the people watching this hearing, that what is happening in2721Minnesota, appears to be fairly unique to Minnesota.2722    Local leftist law enforcement has abrogated their2723responsibilities to maintain order, and rather, they are2724encouraging attack on Federal law enforcement. It is not2725happening in my State. It is not happening in South Carolina,2726Texas, Florida, and even California.2727    What is happening in Minnesota is a unique circumstance2728that is aggravated by the Left and the Left only. My colleague2729who proceeded me is a suitable spokesman, and an able spokesman2730for the Democratic party.2731    It is worth noting that his home State, while illegals are2732welcomed in droves to Illinois, lured there by traditional2733leftist overtures, what he left out is that for more than ten2734consecutive years, hundreds of thousands of Americans have left2735Illinois, because of high costs, high crime, and a landscape2736that is unrecognizable to most people who used to see Chicago2737and Illinois as a flagship for American exceptionalism.2738    The Left has destroyed Illinois. Americans have shown that2739with their movement.2740    Dr. Rasanen, I want to start with you by thanking you for2741taking a stand. You, in many ways, represent concern that2742Christians all over the world fear, that is growing hostility2743toward our faith from leftist governments.2744    I want to talk to you specifically about what you were2745prosecuted for. You did not post a Bible verse in an official2746capacity, correct?2747    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. I posted it in--2748    Mr. Knott. It was not part of a State action.2749    Dr. Rasanen. No, no.2750    Mr. Knott. It was a personal action, correct?2751    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. Yes, my personal.2752    Mr. Knott. Then, you issued a pamphlet in your personal2753capacity.2754    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. Yes, it is here.2755    Mr. Knott. Yes. You did not incite. You did not advocate2756for violence. You did not advocate for the silencing.2757    Dr. Rasanen. No, absolutely not. I said for example, in2758this pamphlet, that I believe that all people are equal and we2759have to respect all people.2760    Mr. Knott. In regard to your litigation, your case, you won2761your case at the trial level, correct?2762    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.2763    Mr. Knott. How many times?2764    Dr. Rasanen. Two times.2765    Mr. Knott. Two times?2766    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.2767    Mr. Knott. Then, the prosecutor appealed.2768    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. It is possible in Finland, even though2769that you are acquitted, that the prosecutor can appeal to the2770Supreme Court, which is the highest level.2771    Mr. Knott. What remedy is this prosecutor looking for? Do2772they want to put you in jail? Do they want to fine you?2773    Dr. Rasanen. They want to have, they want to fine me. What2774is the most dangerous, they want to ban, for example, this2775booklet with my paper post.2776    Mr. Knott. Yes. Well, ultimately, they want to ban your2777belief in scripture. They want to ban your ability to cite the2778Bible.2779    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.2780    Mr. Knott. To believe in the Bible.2781    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.2782    Mr. Knott. To make it socially unacceptable to do so,2783correct?2784    Dr. Rasanen. Yes.2785    Mr. Knott. I want to make this very clear, as a former2786prosecutor myself, I find it grossly offensive that the2787resources of the State are going after wonderful people like2788you, while crime of every sort has increased over the last2789number of years in your home country.2790    The property crimes, sex crimes, and violent crimes, they2791are increasing, and they are going after you.2792    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. At almost seven years now.2793    Mr. Knott. That is disgusting. Again, thank you for your2794faith. Thank you for your bravery. Know that we are behind you2795in full support.2796    Dr. Rasanen. Thank you.2797    Mr. Knott. Mr. Price, I want to talk to you. You said that2798speech was the chief threat to the European Union.2799    [Audio interruption.]2800    Mr. Knott. You can go ahead and answer that.2801    Mr. Price. Oh yes. Yes sir, indeed, that is how they see2802it, unfortunately. What I would say is, as far as the European2803Union is concerned, and we have seen this again and again from2804the President of the Commission of Senior European Leaders,2805they regard misinformation, disinformation, these very nebulous2806fake terms, and hate speech as a threat to the democratic2807cohesion of it.2808    What I think is quite interesting, and I don't want to go2809too far into a history lesson, but all this started after2810Brexit, the election of Donald Trump for his first term, and2811the migrant crisis in the EU. Before that, we had essentially2812almost no regulation on online speech.2813    Mr. Knott. Right.2814    Mr. Price. We had an e-commerce directive and a few other2815pieces of legislation, but nothing on content as such at an EU2816level.2817    The Germans were the first to move. They brought in their2818own draconian law. Then, as often happens in the European2819Union, everybody follows Germany.2820    Since then, we have just added more and more layers of2821this. Now, it is really starting to bite, because they are2822trying to destroy, frankly X.2823    Mr. Knott. Now, they are going after X--2824    Mr. Price. Yes.2825    Mr. Knott. With lock, stock, and barrel. You have one2826individual, in Elon Musk, whose companies exceed the GDP of2827most European countries. You would think that they would2828welcome Elon Musk to try to incentivize some type of freedom,2829economic activity, and economic expansion, but they are2830attacking him.2831    Mr. Price. Yes. The story over the next couple of decades,2832for all of us, will be watching Europe descend into a2833significant series of crises, demographic, economic, and so on.2834It is going to be a real tragedy.2835    The only solution they have, is don't talk about it, just2836ignore it. That is why they have targeted X.2837    Mr. Knott. Um-hum. Thank you, sir.2838    Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman from2839Florida is recognized.2840    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair?2841    Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Illinois is recognized.2842    Mr. Garcia. Mr. Chair, I offered a UC. I want to submit the2843following articles for the record:2844    First, ``Elon Musk's Grok A.I. Chatbot Made Millions of2845Sexualized Images, New Estimates Show,'' The New York Times,2846Jan. 22, 2026.2847    Second, ``Elon Musk's X Faces EU Inquiry Over Sexualized2848A.I. Images Generated by Grok,'' Jan. 26, 2026, The New York2849Times.2850    Third, ``Grok, Elon Musk's A.I., is Generating Sexualized2851Images of Real People, Fueling Outrage,'' Jan. 8, 2026.2852    Chair Jordan. Without Objection. The gentleman from Florida2853is recognized.2854    Mr. Moskowitz. Thank you, Mr. Chair. If you want to know2855how things are going in America, just look at my colleagues.2856They want to talk about Europe, because things are going so2857well here.2858    Mr. Chair, Secretary Noem is scheduled to appear here in a2859month, and I am going to say something that might surprise you,2860I don't think she should come.2861    You know why I don't think she should come? Because, I2862think, she should be fired before that. She shouldn't be here.2863    If you want to invite her as a private citizen, no problem.2864Leader Thune was asked, does he have confidence in her? He2865said, ``that is up to the President.''2866    Josh Hawley was asked, ``Would he vote for her again?'' He2867says, ``Thank God he doesn't have to.'' That is a real vote of2868confidence there. Senator Kennedy wants Tom Homan to run the2869show.2870    By the way, he now is. Senator Tillis wants her fired.2871Senator Murkowski wants her fired. Congresswoman Malliotakis2872says, all options should be on the table with who should run2873the agency.2874    Not a single Republican House Member or Senator is running2875to the television to defend Noem. By the way, President Trump,2876it wasn't lost on me, skipped her in his cabinet meeting just a2877couple days ago. She was the only Secretary he didn't allow to2878talk.2879    It is time to fire her. Why hasn't it happened? I know what2880I need to do. I need to remind the President who it used to be.2881I want to take you down memory lane.2882    You know what we need? We need apprentice Trump. Where is2883that guy? Look, let me remind him of who he used to be really2884quick.2885    [Video shown.]2886    Mr. Moskowitz. Where is that guy? What happened to him? Mr.2887President, you had one of the most popular TV shows, right?2888People would tune in weekly.2889    You would fire the weakest link of your teams. People loved2890it when you fired people, Mr. President. Sitting in the2891boardroom, Eric on one side, Junior on the left, was much watch2892TV.2893    You made millions of dollars firing people for a living.2894Now, someone convinced you that firing people is weakness. That2895is why ratings are down, Mr. President.2896    It would be much watch TV, think about it, Mr. President,2897tens of millions of people will tune in. You bring Kristi Noem2898into your little conference room. You have a cabinet meeting,2899right?2900    You fire her right there on TV. Oh, the ratings would be2901through the roof. Think about the hat she would wear. It will2902be majestic. OK?2903    Let me show you, Mr. President, what that might look like.2904    [Video shown.]2905    Mr. Moskowitz. That is how that would look, right? I would2906watch it. We would all watch it. Mr. President, you fired2907people so many times, they even made a doll about you firing2908people. I bought it on Amazon. It was $9. Obviously, it is2909doing very well.2910    Look, you take this doll out, it is probably made in China.2911You take the doll out and look, it has got, very nicely done by2912the way, if any of my Republican friends want to spend time2913with it later, I will loan it to them.2914    Look, here is the doll. It says to fire people in 172915different ways. You go to the back, you push it. The battery is2916a little old. Let's see if I can find the little button.2917    Well, anyway, it says you are fired, 17 different ways, Mr.2918President. OK? I don't understand what the problem is.2919    I don't get it. For years, you fired people. It was2920strength. Now, you think that is weakness?2921    If we can't get apprentice Trump, can we at least get like,2922Home Alone 2 Trump? Can he at least show her the lobby and out2923the door?2924    She is coming here in a month, OK? It is not going to be a2925good hearing for her. It is going to be a disaster. You all are2926going to have to defend her, which you are not willing to do on2927TV. This will be very televised.2928    Why did the President not let her speak in the cabinet2929meeting? Why didn't she get to talk, right? Why is Tom Homan2930now running the Department?2931    Why is Roger Stone taking shots at her? It is time for her2932to be fired. She is the weakest link of his team, and it is2933enough.2934    Again, I got plenty of material as you see, Mr. President,2935to remind you how to do it. Just go back, go on your reruns, go2936find some old episodes for some inspiration.2937    I yield back.2938    Mr. Van Drew. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back. I2939will recognize myself.2940    Real quickly, just on a lighter note, Mr. Price, do you2941think that the Congressman might have been censored in what he2942said and what he did if it was up to the EU?2943    Mr. Price. Yes, sir. Under German legislation, he is2944engaged in criminal insults to a politician.2945    Mr. Moskowitz. Is that what happened to Jimmy Kimmel?2946    Mr. Van Drew. It is my time now.2947    Mr. Price. Moreover, he might well have been violating2948electoral disinformation. Which would mean that the EU's2949watchdog on electoral disinformation, we call him.2950    Luckily, he is in Florida, of course, and he can invoke the2951First Amendment. Mr. Van Drew. Do we still have--2952    Mr. Moskowitz. This isn't disinformation. They made a doll.2953    Mr. Van Drew. I remind the gentleman from Florida, this is2954not his time, that he had his time. I thank the gentleman.2955    All right. I don't know where to begin, but let me begin by2956we, how do I say this? I really want to try to be a little2957friendlier to the other side here.2958    It is always politics 24/7. The damn hearing isn't about2959politics. Quite frankly, it isn't about Minnesota particularly.2960It isn't about that issue.2961    Is that issue worthy of discussion? Absolutely, the issue2962here was the threat to America's freedom by foreign countries.2963    Now, just in case anybody needs a reminder, I don't think2964we do, we have got a real lot of smart people in this room.2965American men and women died so that we have that freedom of2966speech.2967    American men and women were willing to give up everything,2968so we have that freedom. This is a big deal. It is always the2969politics of the day on the other side.2970    It is always whatever is the hot issue, but nothing to do2971with what the hearing is about. The hearing is important,2972because we really could lose our freedoms.2973    We have other countries controlling the hard-fought2974freedoms of the United States of America. It is terrible. It is2975awful.2976    That is why we are having this hearing, I thank you all for2977being here. Mr. Mayell, I am not trying to give you a hard2978time, but you are from the ACLU. You are a really smart guy.2979You know your stuff, right?2980    You look pretty smart. If I ask you a question, although2981they wanted you to talk about Minnesota, because God forbid, we2982talk about the real issue.2983    You should be able to answer issues of the loss of freedom,2984whether you are liberal, conservative, Republican, or Democrat,2985socialist, and progressive. I don't care what you are, you2986should have that right to speak about what you believe.2987    If you are a Christian, you should be able to have that2988right. If you are Islamic, you should be able to have that2989right.2990    That is what this hearing is about. Most of all, Mr.2991Mayell, the hearing is about whether you are an American and2992you have that right.2993    It is not just, we don't need another politician here2994talking about politics. We need somebody that is going to tell2995us what that freedom really means and what the First Amendment2996really means.2997    Mr. Price, I am going to ask you a few questions. I just2998need yeses or nos, because I want to not run out of time. Yes2999or no, major social media platforms generally apply one global3000set of content moderation rules worldwide.3001    We are part of globalism now. We are all the same, yes or3002no?3003    Mr. Price. Yes.3004    Mr. Van Drew. Because platforms rely on global rules,3005global, not American rules. Forgive me, I know some of us3006aren't American, but I want to talk about America.3007    Global rules, changes to those rules affect users, are3008people that cherish freedom in America. It affects us, yes or3009no?3010    Mr. Price. Yes, it does.3011    Mr. Van Drew. Under the Digital Services Act, platforms can3012be fined up to six percent of their global revenue for3013noncompliance. Yes or no?3014    Mr. Price. Global turnover. Yes, sir. That is how, boy,3015that is a really effective way to stop freedom and freedom of3016speech. That is what we are supposed to be talking about today.3017Not all this other stuff.3018    We can have a hearing. We are going to have Kristi Noem. We3019are going to have the Attorney General. We are going to have3020other hearings.3021    We may have a hearing on Minnesota, I don't know. We will3022talk about those issues then. Let's talk about this big bad3023issue that threatens the very foundation of America and3024American freedom, for God's sake.3025    Yes or no, are the threats of fines that large, designed to3026pressure platforms to over-censor speech to avoid getting3027punished in that way?3028    Mr. Price. Yes, sir. They have that effect.3029    Mr. Van Drew. Yes or no, when Americans are censored3030because of foreign government pressure, they have no ability,3031talk about taxation without representation, this is worse.3032    You lose your freedom of speech, and you have no ability to3033get those people out of office. They are in another country.3034They are not liable to you at all, but you have to acquiesce to3035them, yes or no?3036    Mr. Price. Yes. We can't get them out of office either.3037    Mr. Van Drew. It is scary. If Americans are losing their3038speech rights because of laws written overseas, then this is3039not just a tech issue.3040    This is not some boring issue that people want to put in a3041closet somewhere where people go on and forget about it. There3042is freedom of religion, freedom of speech, freedom of the way3043to raise your family the way you want to. All the freedoms that3044we cherish in America, yes or no?3045    Mr. Price. Yes, sir.3046    Mr. Van Drew. Is it a direct attack on American3047sovereignty, and shouldn't we do everything we can to stop it?3048    Mr. Price. Absolutely.3049    Mr. Van Drew. That is the bottom line here, ladies and3050gentlemen. This is a big deal. I am sorry for what you went3051through. God knows, it is a big deal.3052    It doesn't matter if they agree with your face. It is your3053face and it is your right to represent that face. You shouldn't3054go to jail, you shouldn't be fined, you shouldn't be3055embarrassed, and you shouldn't be censored. Damn it, we are3056sick of it.3057    Instead of talking about that, which is an area we should3058all agree on, Republican and Democrat, what do we do? We avoid3059it and we go to the political issues of the day. Every hearing.3060    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, that the gentleman's time has3061expired by about 49 seconds.3062    Mr. Van Drew. My time has expired, yes. I think the real3063Chair is going to take over now.3064    Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] We have about 20 minutes. If you3065can all hang with us for 20 minutes, that would be great.3066    We are going to recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin, and3067then Ms. Hageman, the gentleman from South Carolina, and then3068Mr. Onder from Missouri. The gentleman from Wisconsin is3069recognized.3070    Mr. Grothman. Sure, thanks. I am very glad we are having3071this hearing. I think it is a very scary hearing.3072    Not only because our platforms can be affected by laws3073abroad, but frequently what happens in the United States,3074happens in--I guess, you would say, the decline in the United3075States right now that we see in our culture, sometimes follows3076a decline in Europe.3077    When we hear what is going on in Europe today, we have to3078be really careful what is going to happen in this country.3079    When I think that last time a Presidential candidate ran,3080got 48 percent of the vote after the Administration she was in3081tried to set up a Disinformation Governance Board, once that3082was done, that party should have been in Timbuktu for a long3083time.3084    In any event, Mr. Price, could you give us some more just3085quick examples?3086    I am going to yield to my Chair, some quick examples,3087egregious examples, so the American listening public can know3088the type of speech they are banning in what used to be the3089wonderful bastion of freedom, Europe?3090    Mr. Price. Yes, sir. Well, we, or my client here beside me,3091Paivi Rasanen, have given a very good account of what has3092happened to her.3093    We were, myself and my colleague, Paul Coleman, very3094honored to stand beside her in her Supreme Court hearing.3095    That is just only one part of it. In the United Kingdom,3096where, in London where I am living at the moment, we have a3097situation where people are being criminally prosecuted for3098praying silently, for offering to have conversations with3099people in public places.3100    Mr. Grothman. Anti-Christianity in Europe.3101    Mr. Price. That is a very accurate way of describing it,3102yes. We have situations where people are being prosecuted for3103reading scripture when other people find it offensive,3104particularly people from the Islamic community, and they make3105criminal complaints. We act for those as well.3106    We have a client, for example, Rose Doherty in Scotland,3107who held a sign saying, ``I'm here to talk if you want.'' Five3108police officers arrived to arrest, detain, and search her for3109breaching Scottish law in relation to that.3110    There are many examples. I have given some statistics in my3111written testimony, which outline the dire State of affairs.3112    It is entirely correct when Vice President Vance said when3113he was in Munich, that we now have a civilizational divide3114opening up between Europe and the United States.3115    That would be bad enough for us on our own, if it wasn't3116for the fact that the European Union is trying to impose it on3117you as well, by virtue of these tech regulations such as the3118DSA.3119    Mr. Grothman. Thank you. I am going to yield to my great3120Chair here.3121    Chair Jordan. Thank you. I thank the gentleman for3122yielding. Mr. Price, why are they really going after X?3123    Mr. Price. Sir, it is my view that they are going after X,3124because X has decided to take a maximalist position for free3125speech. To have the most possible free speech.3126    That is inimical to their view, which is that we cannot3127have free speech.3128    Chair Jordan. The Left loved Elon Musk until he spent, what3129did he say, I spent, ``I didn't spend $50 billion to buy3130Twitter, I spent $50 billion to save the First Amendment.''3131    They loved him before he bought X and said, ``I'm going to3132honor the First Amendment and respect the First Amendment.'' Is3133that--would you agree, Mr. Linehan?3134    Mr. Linehan. Yes. The effect of all these policies in3135Europe is, I will give you one example. In Dublin recently,3136there were riots.3137    I have never seen riots in Dublin in my life. This is3138because people cannot speak honestly about the thing that3139matters most to them at the moment, which is unchecked3140immigration.3141    That frustration and the kind of silencing of alternative3142voices is what is leading to things like riots.3143    Long-term, we could see societal collapse. I really do3144think that it is a possibility in some countries.3145    Chair Jordan. In the last Congress, we had a journalist3146from Canada, Rupa Subramanya, came here, testified. She had3147covered the truckers' crisis in Canada back during COVID.3148    She had covered that and been censored for her, as a3149journalist, and been censored.3150    Mr. Linehan. Yes.3151    Chair Jordan. She sat right there and said the same thing3152you did. She said, ``the hallmark of Western civilization is3153free debate, free expression.''3154    Mr. Linehan. Yes.3155    Chair Jordan. To your point, if you don't have that, the3156alternative is scary, right?3157    Mr. Linehan. Yes.3158    Chair Jordan. Because you can't settle the, then disputes3159don't get settled via debate, they get settled via some other3160way. That is the scary thing.3161    That is what is so frustrating. The DOJ, the SEC, and the3162FTC, all go after Elon Musk here in the United States after he3163buys Twitter.3164    Now, we got Spain, the U.K., and Ireland, all going after3165him. France going after him, the EU. Never before when he was3166on the Left.3167    As soon as he comes out for free speech--3168    Mr. Linehan. Yes.3169    Chair Jordan. Free expression, here comes the government. A3170scary, scary world.3171    Again, thank you all for--I do have to run, I apologize. We3172are going to let someone else Chair. We are down to the last 203173minutes.3174    Before I recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, I3175wanted to say thank you all for coming. We appreciate it.3176Doctor, thank you.3177    Many people have said it, but the courage that you have3178shown, and frankly, the courage Mr. Linehan has shown, when you3179are attacked for speaking your mind.3180    God bless you. We really appreciate you all being here. Mr.3181Price and Mr. Mayell, we appreciate you. We will have you all3182back at some point as well.3183    With that, I recognize the gentlelady from North Carolina3184for five minutes.3185    Ms. Ross. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I find it ironic that my3186Republican colleagues are spending this Committee's time3187talking about an imagined threat of Europe to America's freedom3188of speech and innovation.3189    Never has freedom of speech in this country been more under3190threat, maybe since the Alien and Sedition Act. The threat3191isn't coming from Brussels. It comes from inside the White3192House and the President's cabinet.3193    We are seeing this Administration send masked roving3194paramilitary forces to cities whose leaders have stood up to3195the President.3196    We are seeing these agents use the excuse of immigration3197enforcement to execute American citizens in the street for3198exercising their freedom of speech and their freedom of3199assembly.3200    If you are executed without a trial, don't worry, the3201Administration's chief propagandist will make up the reason why3202you deserved it, 10 minutes after the news breaks. Probably3203because you committed domestic terrorism by filming them.3204    Even Saturday Night Live had a good time with that last3205weekend. Helping a woman up who had been pushed to the ground.3206    In my State of North Carolina, ICE and CBP descended on3207cities, snatching up people based on the color of their skin or3208because of where they worked, frequently, U.S. citizens.3209    It is not just Republicans in the Federal Executive Branch3210that are going after freedom of speech. When ProPublica was3211researching a story on how Paul Newby, the Chief Justice of the3212North Carolina Supreme Court, politicized a once impartial and3213respected institution, the spokesman for the North Carolina3214Republican Party told ProPublica that, ``I'm sure you're aware3215of our connections with the Trump Administration, and I'm sure3216they would be interested in this matter. And I would strongly3217suggest you dropping this story.''3218    The Trump Administration called Renee Goode and Alex3219Pretti, agitators and domestic terrorists. They have used3220rubber bullets, real bullets, tear gas, and military equipment3221against peaceful protestors.3222    The Administration is calling everyday Minnesotans, who3223record ICE and CBP officers, agitators. Mr. Mayell, does3224recording immigration enforcement agents make someone an3225agitator?3226    Mr. Mayell. You have a First Amendment right to record and3227video law enforcement.3228    Ms. Ross. Does delivering meals to neighbors too scared to3229leave their home make someone an agitator?3230    Mr. Mayell. Delivering meals is not unlawful activity.3231    Ms. Ross. Does standing outside a school pickup line to3232make sure your child's friend doesn't get abducted make someone3233a domestic terrorist?3234    Mr. Mayell. My understanding of the definition of3235``domestic terrorism'' does not match any of what we have seen.3236    Ms. Ross. Yet, all this is happening in your State?3237    Mr. Mayell. Our State is under siege in a way that we have3238not seen, certainly not in my lifetime, and free speech is3239under threat in a way that--in the most significant way that we3240have seen in our lifetime. The rule of law is under siege.3241    Ms. Ross. Well, I really want--I appreciate your testimony3242today. I appreciate what you're doing during this very3243difficult time to protect Americans' right to free speech.3244    Every time I do a townhall, people ask me what they can do,3245I remind them that in this country we have the First Amendment,3246and the only way we can change things is to use every single3247right in the First Amendment. Pull out your Constitution and3248pick what you're going to do, whether it's praying, speaking,3249petitioning the government for redress of grievance. We have3250all those rights in this country, and we should be proud of our3251citizens for standing up against their government when their3252rights are being infringed.3253    Mr. Chair--or Madam Chairwoman, I didn't notice. Thank you.3254    I have a unanimous consent request. It's from the San3255Antonio Express News, January 25, 2026, ``Pete Hegseth censures3256Mark Kelly for saying the things he himself said.''3257    Ms. Hageman. [Presiding.] Ordered.3258    Ms. Ross. Thank you very much, and I yield back.3259    Ms. Hageman. Thank you. I now recognize myself for five3260minutes of questioning.3261    Mr. Linehan, in your testimony, you describe how the U.K.3262police identify what they refer to as ``noncrime hate3263incidents'' against citizens, even if there's no actual3264violation of the law. Talk about Orwellian. Could you please3265briefly explain to us what a ``noncrime hate incident'' is?3266    Mr. Linehan. It's, essentially, the British Government's3267attempt to control people's speech without appearing to.3268``noncrime hate incidents,'' I believe they appear on3269background checks, but it's very hard to find out what they are3270saying about you.3271    I was invited to the Conservative Party Conference in the3272U.K., and my accreditation was turned down. I still don't know3273why. The Conservative Party overthrew it. I have a feeling that3274my--the kind of popular conception about me being a bigot, and3275so on, has found its way into the police files.3276    Ms. Hageman. You're saying these allegations against3277British citizens actually appear on your record like a criminal3278conviction, but there is a criminal conviction. Is that right?3279    Mr. Linehan. That's right. That's right.3280    Ms. Hageman. This sounds to me like a form of a social3281credit score, where the State uses taxpayer funds to collect3282information on its citizen as a mechanism for public shaming.3283Is that a fair description?3284    Mr. Linehan. I would say so, yes.3285    Ms. Hageman. Are these so-called ``noncrime hate3286incidents,'' are they at least enforced equally? In other3287words, are these targeted against people of certain religious3288or political beliefs or against people who fail to subscribe to3289in-vogue woke ideology?3290    Mr. Linehan. Well, I'm not sure. As I said earlier, I think3291the U.K. police, their main job now is keeping the people under3292control. Because too many of them are noticing things that are3293worrying them, things that they want to talk about, and they're3294not allowed to talk about it.3295    For instance, the BBC, for 10 years now, has basically3296ignored the gender issue completely, which means that the side3297of the story that is just a very kind of calm and compassionate3298laying out of things that feminists believe is just unspoken on3299the BBC.3300    Yes. I don't know, I don't know much about the operation of3301noncrime hate incidents. I believe, because of my arrest, they3302say they're not going to prosecute them anymore; they're not3303going to investigate them.3304    Ms. Hageman. Oh.3305    Mr. Linehan. I'm hoping that's true.3306    Ms. Hageman. Well, but isn't it a fact that the information3307is then often used by employers, banks, people who may have3308invited you to speak, to actually ruin someone's life--a person3309that has not been convicted of any crime, but in this shadowy3310netherworld of surveillance and observation, and trying to3311define what is appropriate speech and inappropriate speech,3312it's actually ruining people's lives or preventing people from3313getting jobs, simply because of this nebulous antifree speech3314other world.3315    Mr. Linehan. Sure. Yes.3316    Ms. Hageman. OK. Well, how did we come to this point? How3317did a European country claiming to be free, and allied with us,3318with our country, to defeat mankind's greatest threats to3319freedom in the 20th century--here they are; they have now3320become this type of very ugly, censorious regime. How did that3321happen?3322    Mr. Linehan. Because they won't fix the problems that are3323causing the--some people have been arrested for genuinely3324violent speech, and they've gotten into trouble for that. A lot3325of people are frustrated, simply because they cannot speak3326about the things that matter to them. When they do speak about3327the things that matter to them, they're labeled as bigots or3328racists. Also, I think it's the same here as well, in the sense3329that--3330    Ms. Hageman. Yes, it is.3331    Mr. Linehan. --it's not just the absence of people talking3332about it; it's mainstream legacy media directing people's3333attention elsewhere and simply not reporting on things.3334    There's just a huge bubbling sense of frustration that3335could, as I said earlier, lead to some sort of societal3336collapse. I don't think that's out of the question at all.3337    Ms. Hageman. That your warning in that regard is very well3338taken, at least for some of us on this panel.3339    The first act of a tyrant is to strip you of your right to3340speak, because they know that their policies and ideas cannot3341withstand scrutiny, which is, I believe, what you're saying.3342They cannot survive being mocked. That we're seeing that3343repeatedly in England, in Spain, in France, and other3344countries. We're seeing it here as well.3345    We do have the First Amendment, freedom of speech. We have3346the right to freedom of speech. What I have been observing in3347terms of what is going on in Europe is they cannot tolerate3348dissent; they cannot tolerate alternative views, because they3349cannot tolerate the scrutiny that will come with allowing3350people to freely speak and having to defend the horrific3351policies that they've been implementing in their countries for3352the last couple of decades.3353    I'm out of time. I now am going to call on the gentleman3354from South Carolina for his five minutes of questioning. Thank3355you.3356    Mr. Fry. Thank you, Madam Chair. Mr. Price, are the Online3357Safety Act and the Digital Services Act extraterritorial in3358scope?3359    Mr. Price. They, in effect, are, yes.3360    Mr. Fry. They were not designed that way originally, right?3361    Mr. Price. Well, that's a very good question. There's3362enough ambiguity that this was the intention in my view. It's3363not precise.3364    Mr. Fry. At our last hearing, Mr. Farage--that you were3365here--Mr. Farage discussed the emergence of a two-tiered system3366of justice and how censorship efforts in the EU and the U.K.3367disproportionately target conservatives and individuals3368critical of their governments, particularly on issues like3369migration.3370    Under the DSA, would a statement like, ``We need to take3371our country back'' be considered illegal hate speech?3372    Mr. Price. It was given, in fact, that very phraseology, as3373an example of something that would be in some of the documents3374that this Committee has revealed.3375    Mr. Fry. Right. That was in the European Commission's May33762025 workshop, right?3377    Mr. Price. Yes. Correct.3378    Mr. Fry. In your opinion, do you think that there is a3379migrant crisis in Europe?3380    Mr. Price. There is a very serious crisis in Europe with3381migration, and I agree entirely with Graham that it's fueling a3382lot of political division because our governments are not seen3383to take actions on it, not take it seriously.3384    We saw in Spain recently over 500,000 migrants, their3385status was changed. They were regularized or legalized, and3386then, almost immediately afterwards, the Spanish Prime Minister3387is announcing that he intends to launch a major crackdown on3388what he describes as ``hate speech online.'' I don't think3389those things are unconnected. I think they're very much3390connected.3391    This is what we're seeing across the European Union as3392well--a desperate attempt to hold together the civic discourse3393by using censorship and threats. That's precisely--it's very3394interesting talking to Ranking Member Raskin about this--it's3395precisely the opposite of the tradition of this country3396historically. You have the debate out in open here; whereas, in3397Europe, your silenced, your suppressed, and your arrest.3398    Now, the problem with the DSA, as we've been describing,3399that takes the European approach to things and it globalizes3400it, and it forces it on the Americans.3401    Mr. Fry. That's kind of remarkable. If you live in Europe3402and you recognize this migrant crisis, you see the strain maybe3403on the social--the system itself. You see the money that's3404being spent. You're kind of wondering, what about us that live3405here?3406    If you were to speak out about that would be hateful3407speech; therefore, illegal under the DSA, just by speaking out3408about it. Briefly, under the DSA, who determines what qualifies3409as hate speech or deceptive content? Who makes that3410determination?3411    Mr. Price. That's made, in practice, by national3412regulators, by local law enforcement. We all come down,3413unfortunately, to the lowest common denominator, and, in3414effect--I don't mean to be attacking Germany all the time--it's3415Germany. The Germans and the U.K. has its own system outside of3416the DSA, but the level of crackdown on speech in Germany is3417unprecedented. 60 Minutes did a very good documentary3418highlighting that issue.3419    Because of the German obsession with controlling speech,3420that has been now expanded across the European Union, and is3421now being globalized, unfortunately, through the DSA, we're3422seeing everything set to that standard.3423    Mr. Fry. In effect, this is the subject of determination by3424some faceless, unelected, unaccountable bureaucrat that is3425making the determination on what ``hate speech'' is or3426``deceptive content'' is or is not.3427    Do you trust EU bureaucrats to define hate speech when they3428label ``We need to take our country back'' as such?3429    Mr. Price. No, I don't, and as I say, most of the raft of3430digital regulation that we've seen came in on the foot of the3431so-called ``rise of the right,'' the BREXIT folks, and that's3432very tightly connected. It's caused by that. It's correlated3433with it. The reason being that they felt they had lost3434narrative control, and Graham is correct, the legacy media in3435Europe is heavily funded by the State in many accounts;3436whereas, with X, people can post their opinions. They can get3437millions of views for them.3438    Mr. Fry. Right. It's a free exchange of ideas. Right?3439    Mr. Price. A free exchange of ideas.3440    Mr. Fry. It's the modern public square. Under the DSA,3441companies are required to monitor and censor such language, and3442violations, obviously, would result in fines or maybe even FBI3443raids or Federal raids in Paris on X. Right? That's the next3444punitive step?3445    Mr. Price. Yes, sir, that's where we see--3446    Yes, the lawyers are often careful about making3447predictions, but the next--I confidently predict that the next3448round of fines on X will be connected with illegal content and3449this content moderation for systemic risk. They identify so-3450called ``antimigration narratives,'' or others, as a systemic3451risk to the discourse inside the European Union, and they have3452to stop it.3453    It's not just Europeans, and this is where this becomes3454global. If you're in Texas, South Carolina, or New York, and3455you're commenting on what's going on in Europe, saying, ``The3456migration situation is a disaster,'' they don't want that3457speech to leak across into Europe. Either X will start to3458globally moderate it by removing it or we're going to see a3459firewall being set up in the center of the Atlantic, and that3460would be a disaster even further for free speech. It creates3461exactly what Vice President Vance described as a3462``civilizational divide.''3463    Mr. Fry. Well, it's alarming to me. I just visited the DMZ3464a couple of months ago, and the divide between the West and3465South Korea, if you will--3466    Mr. Price. Uh-hum.3467    Mr. Fry. --and then, North Korea, this seems like--and the3468suppression, the length that the North Koreans go to make sure3469that things don't come into the country sounds exactly like3470where Europe is headed, and hopefully, they can course-correct,3471and that we never follow them on this path.3472    Thank you, Madam Chair, and with that, I yield. Mr. Chair,3473I yield back.3474    Mr. Onder. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields back. I want3475to recognize myself for five minutes.3476    First, I want to personally thank you, Mr. Linehan and you3477Dr. Rasanen, for your courage in speaking out against gender3478ideology. I share your conviction, and I speak out because of3479my own medical training and my understanding of human biology.3480    Most concerning of all, this ideology is dangerous when3481it's imposed upon our children. For years, many of us have3482raised alarms on this issue, despite knowing that it would be3483unpopular.3484    I am often asked why I continue to press this point. The3485answer is simple: Because we are confident, we are right and we3486believe that, finally, now mainstream medicine in the United3487States is catching up. We were late to the game compared to3488some of our colleagues in Europe.3489    Just yesterday, a major U.S. medical association, the3490American Association of Plastic Surgeons, reversed its position3491and came out against so-called gender-affirming surgeries for3492minors. They did so for very good reasons that many of us have3493articulated for years. Because these procedures do more harm3494than good, and they are not supported by solid clinical3495evidence.3496    In response, the American Medical Association then3497acknowledged that it is time to stop performing these surgeries3498on children.3499    That is why I have worked with the Attorney General who3500transmitted the Chloe Cole Act to Congress. This bill would3501allow all victims who are permanently harmed by the3502experimental trans-3503gender procedures to sue for damages, and I look forward to3504continuing that conversation when the Attorney General3505testifies next week.3506    Mr. Price, I'm going to read you something that Pope Leo3507the 14th said when he was serving as Bishop in Peru. I'd like3508you to tell me whether this would be considered hate speech3509under current European law. Quote,35103511        The idea of promoting gender ideology is confusing because it3512        creates genders that don't exist. So, God created men and3513        women, and the attempt to confuse ideas from Nature will only3514        harm families and people.35153516He further said,35173518        To talk about matters of identity and sexual orientation with a3519        child who hasn't yet reached a sufficient age of development3520        will create much confusion.35213522    In your opinion, would this be considered hate speech and3523subject to censorship and prosecution under European law?3524    Mr. Price. It's entirely possible that a prosecutor or3525regulator somewhere in Europe could see that as denigrating a3526specific identifiable group.3527    Mr. Onder. Yes. I believe--I'm Catholic--this is accurately3528Catholic doctrine on this subject. It's actually, a soft3529statement of it, in fact. The Catholic faith is shared by 1.43530billion people around the world. Potentially, the faith of 1.43531billion people around the world is hate speech?3532    Mr. Price. Yes.3533    Mr. Onder. Potentially?3534    Mr. Price. We've seen examples--there's Dr. Rasanen,3535sitting beside me of people being prosecuted for their3536religious beliefs.3537    Mr. Onder. Yes. Yes.3538    Mr. Onder. I would like to ask you, Doctor, you were3539questioned by police about a message from the Book of Romans3540and the meaning of the word ``sin.'' You were charged with the3541crime, one categorized as ``a crime against humanity.'' The3542prosecutor even lectured you on the Gospel itself.3543    Now, you were quoting from the Book of Romans, from the3544Bible, considered by 2.6 million Christians around the world to3545be the inspired word of God. Yet, this text you quoted was3546considered to be hate speech. Do I understand your case3547correctly?3548    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. Yes, you understand.3549    Mr. Onder. It's fair to say that the Finnish Government3550adopted the position that speaking what you consider, and many,3551probably billions of Christians around the world consider to be3552biblical truth, they consider that to be hate speech?3553    Dr. Rasanen. Yes. In fact, it is the prosecutor general who3554has said and who has claimed that this is hate speech. This is3555against the law about agitation against minorities.3556    Mr. Onder. Yes. Well, thank you.3557    To describe the current European censorship regime as3558Orwellian, I'll tell you, the Big Brother had nothing on the3559European censorship industrial complex. From George Orwell's35601984,35613562        The Ministry of Truth concerns itself with lies. War is peace,3563        freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.35643565In the end, the Party could announce that 2 + 2 = 5, and you3566would have to believe it.3567    We have a regime where boys can be girls; COVID came from3568pangolins in a wet market; toddlers should be wearing masks;3569Trump was elected by the Russians, and speech we don't like is3570hate speech.3571    Western Civilization is in a sorry State if we reject3572freedom of speech.3573    Thank you all, and I yield back.3574    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, I just have a few UC requests.3575    Mr. Onder. Without objection.3576    Mr. Raskin. Thank you kindly.3577    First, ``Elon Musk, King of Censorship: 10 Times the `Free3578Speech Absolutist' Silenced Twitter Users,'' Gizmodo.3579    Second, Salon, ``Trump's war on comedy threatens the free3580speech for all Americans.''3581    Third, aclu.org's No. 162025, ``Trump Is Firing Federal3582Workers over Beliefs He Doesn't Like.''3583    Fourth, ``Trump calls for `termination' of 60 Minutes in3584fresh attack on the U.S. media.''3585    Mr. Onder. This concludes today's hearing. We thank the3586witnesses for appearing before the Committee today.3587    Without objection, all Committee Members will have five3588legislative days to submit additional written questions for the3589witnesses or materials for the record.3590    Mr. Onder. Without objection, the hearing is adjourned.3591    [Whereupon, at 1:04 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]35923593    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the3594Committee on the Judiciary can be found at: https://3595docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=118923.35963597                                 [all]