“Anti-American Antitrust: How Foreign Governments Target U.S. Businesses”

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                        PARTISAN AND PROFITABLE:5          THE SPLC'S INFLUENCE ON FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS POLICY67=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213        SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT1415                                 OF THE1617                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY1819                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2021                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2223                             FIRST SESSION2425                               __________2627                       TUESDAY, DECEMBER 16, 20252829                               __________3031                           Serial No. 119-453233                               __________3435         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3637    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839               Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov40                                   _______4142                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE434462-368                    WASHINGTON : 20264546                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4748                        JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair4950DARRELL ISSA, California             JAMIE RASKIN, Maryland, Ranking51ANDY BIGGS, Arizona                      Member52TOM McCLINTOCK, California           JERROLD NADLER, New York53THOMAS P. TIFFANY, Wisconsin         ZOE LOFGREN, California54THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky              STEVE COHEN, Tennessee55CHIP ROY, Texas                      HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,56SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin              Georgia57BEN CLINE, Virginia                  ERIC SWALWELL, California58LANCE GOODEN, Texas                  TED LIEU, California59JEFFERSON VAN DREW, New Jersey       PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington60TROY E. NEHLS, Texas                 J. LUIS CORREA, California61BARRY MOORE, Alabama                 MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania62KEVIN KILEY, California              JOE NEGUSE, Colorado63HARRIET M. HAGEMAN, Wyoming          LUCY McBATH, Georgia64LAUREL M. LEE, Florida               DEBORAH K. ROSS, North Carolina65WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   BECCA BALINT, Vermont66RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina          JESUS G. ``CHUY'' GARCIA, Illinois67GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California68BRAD KNOTT, North Carolina           JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida69MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York70ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       JASMINE CROCKETT, Texas71DEREK SCHMIDT, Kansas72BRANDON GILL, Texas73MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington7475                                 ------7677        SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION AND LIMITED GOVERNMENT7879                         CHIP ROY, Texas, Chair8081TOM McCLINTOCK, California           MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania,82THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky                  Ranking Member83HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming             STEVE COHEN, Tennessee84WESLEY HUNT, Texas                   PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington85GLENN GROTHMAN, Wisconsin            JOE NEGUSE, Colorado86MARK HARRIS, North Carolina          BECCA BALINT, Vermont87ROBERT F. ONDER, Jr., Missouri       SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California88BRANDON GILL, Texas                  DANIEL S. GOLDMAN, New York8990               CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director91                ARTHUR EWENCZYK, Minority Staff Director9293                            C O N T E N T S9495                              ----------9697                       Tuesday, December 16, 202598                           OPENING STATEMENTS99100                                                                   Page101102The Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee on the103  Constitution and Limited Government from the State of Texas....     1104The Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking Member of the105  Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government from106  the State of Pennsylvania......................................     4107The Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member of the Committee on108  the Judiciary from the State of Maryland.......................     6109110                               WITNESSES111112Tyler O'Neil, Senior Editor, The Daily Signal113  Oral Testimony.................................................     9114  Prepared Testimony.............................................    11115Tony Perkins, President, Family Research Council116  Oral Testimony.................................................    19117  Prepared Testimony.............................................    21118Andrew Sypher, Executive Vice President of Field Operations,119  Turning Point USA120  Oral Testimony.................................................    29121  Prepared Testimony.............................................    31122Amanda Tyler, Executive Director, Baptist Joint Committee123  Oral Testimony.................................................    33124  Prepared Testimony.............................................    35125126          LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING127128All materials submitted by the Subcommittee on the Constitution129  and Limited Government, for the record.........................    60130131An article entitled, ``No, Trump Did Not Call Neo-Nazis and White132  Supremacists `Very Fine People,' '' Jun. 21, 2024, Snopes,133  submitted by the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee134  on the Constitution and Limited Government from the State of135  Texas, for the record136Materials submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking137  Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited138  Government from the State of Pennsylvania, for the record139    An article entitled, ``Trump administration threatens Sister140        Norma Pimentel's migrant aid with 6-year funding ban,''141        Dec. 15, 2025, America Magazine142    An article entitled, ``Vance spars with US bishops over their143        pushback on Trump's immigration policy,'' Jan. 27, 2025,144        Catholic Review145    An article entitled, ``U.S. Bishops Issue a `Special Message'146        on Immigration from Plenary Assembly in Baltimore,'' Nov.147        12, 2025, United States Conference of Catholic Bishops148        (USCCB)149    A letter to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee150        on the Constitution and Limited Government from the State151        of Texas, and the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking152        Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and153        Limited Government from the State of Pennsylvania, from154        The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, Dec.155        15, 2025156    A letter to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee157        on the Constitution and Limited Government from the State158        of Texas, and the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking159        Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and160        Limited Government from the State of Pennsylvania, from161        the Congressional Black Caucus, Dec. 16, 2025162    A letter entitled, ``An Open Letter Rejecting Presidential163        Attacks on Nonprofit Organizations,'' from multiple164        organizations165    A letter to the Honorable Chip Roy, Chair of the Subcommittee166        on the Constitution and Limited Government from the State167        of Texas, and the Honorable Mary Gay Scanlon, Ranking168        Member of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and169        Limited Government from the State of Pennsylvania, from170        the Independent Sector and the National Council of171        Nonprofits, Dec. 16, 2025172    A statement from Dr. Rachel Kleinfeld, Senior Fellow,173        Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Dec. 16, 2025174Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the175  Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government from176  the State of Arizona, for the record177    An article entitled, ``Southern Poverty Law Center Settles178        Lawsuit After Falsely Labeling `Extremist'179        Organization,'' Jun. 18, 2018, Newsweek180    An article entitled, ``Southern Poverty Law Center apologizes181        to Ben Carson, takes him off `extremist' list,'' May 2,182        2016, Fox News183    An article entitled, ``Opinion | The Southern Poverty Law184        Center has lost all credibility,'' Jun. 22, 2018,185        Washington Post186    An article entitled, ``Has a Civil Rights Stalwart Lost Its187        Way,'' Jul./Aug. 2017, Politico188    An article entitled, ``The lucrative business of `fighting189        hate': In-house bigotry rocks Southern Poverty Law190        Center,'' Aug. 2019, Freedom Socialist Party191    A fact sheet entitled, ``What are They Saying?'' SPLC192An article entitled, ``SPLC Files Complaint Against Two Notorious193  Neo-Nazi Leaders and Goyim Defense League for Violating Civil194  Rights of Members of Nashville Jewish Center,'' Dec. 10, 2025,195  SPLCenter, submitted by the Honorable Steve Cohen, a Member of196  the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government197  from the State of Tennessee, for the record198Materials submitted by the Honorable Jamie Raskin, Ranking Member199  of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Maryland,200  for the record201    An article entitled, ``No Bias Found in FBI Report on202        Catholic Extremists,'' Apr. 18, 2024, The New York Times203    A letter entitled, ``Jefferson's Letter to the Danbury204        Baptists: The Final Letter, as Sent,'' from President205        Jefferson, Jan. 1, 1802, Library of Congress Information206        Bulletin207A letter entitled, ``The Destruction of DOJ's Civil Rights208  Division: Why it Matters,'' from multiple attorneys, Dec. 9,209  2025, submitted by the Honorable Sydney Kamlager-Dove, a Member210  of the Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government211  from the State of California, for the record212213                        PARTISAN AND PROFITABLE:214          THE SPLC'S INFLUENCE ON FEDERAL CIVIL RIGHTS POLICY215216                              ----------217218                       Tuesday, December 16, 2025219220                        House of Representatives221222        Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government223224                       Committee on the Judiciary225226                             Washington, DC227228    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 2 p.m., in Room2292141, Rayburn House Office Building, the Hon. Chip Roy [Chair230of the Subcommittee] presiding.231    Members present: Representatives Roy, McClintock, Hageman,232Grothman, Harris, Onder, Gill, Scanlon, Raskin, Cohen, Jayapal,233Balint, Kamlager-Dove, and Goldman.234    Also present: Representative Biggs.235    Mr. Roy. The Subcommittee will come to order. Without236objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a recess at any237time. I welcome everyone to today's hearing on the Southern238Poverty Law Center and Federal civil rights policy.239    I will now recognize myself for an opening statement.240Before I begin, I just want to apologize to the witnesses and241for the folks in the crowd and to my colleagues that we got242started a little bit late. We were dealing with some votes on243the House floor. It ran long, and I apologize to the witnesses244and appreciate your patience and I appreciate you all being245here.246    Today the Subcommittee meets to examine a troubling247reality, that one of the most politically motivated,248financially lucrative, and ideologically extreme nonprofits in249America, the Southern Poverty Law Center, has been permitted to250wield extraordinary influence over Federal civil rights policy,251Federal law enforcement training, and the private sector252mechanisms that increasingly dictate who is permitted to253participate in civic life.254    This is a far cry from the Southern Poverty Law Center's255early reputation as a group engaged in concrete litigation256against civil violence and the KKK. The SPLC has reinvented257itself as a political fundraising machine built on an ever-258expanding, ideologically defined hate mission.259    Since 2000, the SPLC has published what it calls a hate260map, a physical nationwide map that places bright-red markers261over the approximate location of designated hate groups across262America. The map is updated annually, amplified to the media,263and used by activists and even Federal agencies as if it were a264neutral intelligence product.265    How did we arrive at a point where a tax-exempt political266organization can smear mainstream faith-based groups, parental267rights advocates, even Muslims who reject terrorism, or student268groups like Turning Point USA, and virtually anyone else who269disagrees with its far-Left ideology as extremists, feeding270these designations directly into Federal agencies, watching as271violence follows, and then continuing to profit from the very272fear it helps create?273    This is not neutral monitoring. It is a political weapon274masquer-275ading as a public interest watchdog. SPLC leadership openly276admits as such, with a spokesman stating plainly, quote, ``Our277aim in life is to destroy these groups, completely destroy278them.'' This is despite explaining that their designations are279strictly ideological, not based on criminality, violence, or280danger, conceding that their hate-group labels are based on281opinion, not objective standards.282    To illustrate just how far this mission creep has gone, the283Center for Immigration and Federation for American Immigration284Reform, which are groups dedicated to evaluating the effects of285mass illegal and legal immigration, are labeled as hate groups286by the SPLC. The SPLC's November 2025 extremism-tracking287bulletin even flagged me personally, not for violence or288lawlessness or any actual threat, but for legislative work on289issues like border security and concerns about radical290Islamism.291    A mere difference in policy opinion may land you on SPLC's292hate map that has countless groups listed over mere293disagreements. Moreover, these labels have real-world294consequences, including the 2012 armed attack on the Family295Research Council, an attack in which the shooter admitted he296selected his target directly from the SPLC hate list and used297the hate map to determine FRC's location. He then entered with29850 rounds of ammo and a bag of Chick-fil-A sandwiches he299intended to smear on his victims' faces as a political message.300    Even after this attack, Federal agencies continued relying301on SPLC materials, with the FBI citing SPLC classifications in302at least 13 intelligence products on so-called radical303traditionalist Catholics. We see the same pattern again more304than a decade later, when on September 9, 2025, one day before305Charlie Kirk was assassinated, the SPLC's Hatewatch newsletter306singled out Charlie and Turning Point USA by name, labeling307them dangerous extremists.308    As with FRC, in the aftermath of Charlie's assassination,309there have been no retractions, no accountability, and no310acknowledgment of the risks inherent in branding mainstream311political figures as existential threats. These incidents,312separated by 13 years but linked by the same targeting313architecture, underscore a sobering reality. The SPLC's314designations don't merely stigmatize. They can serve as315ideological permission slips for individuals already willing to316commit political violence.317    We must examine how Federal agencies, from the Department318of Justice and FBI to the Department of Education to even319elements of the Department of War, have relied on or320incorporated SPLC's briefings, training materials, or lists of321so-called extremist groups. How did we allow private322organization with no objective standards and no accountability323and a long history of internal corruption and bias to become324embedded in Federal civil rights enforcement, determining whose325speech gets chilled, whose religious exercise is punished,326whose organizations are suddenly surveilled, de-banked, de-327platformed, or targeted because a multimillion-dollar activist328nonprofit decided they were politically inconvenient?329    The SPLC is just one in a sprawling ecosystem of Left-wing330foundations, foreign funding streams, donor-advised networks,331legacy media partners, and activist legal groups. This network332deploys billions of dollars annually to shape public-facing333extremism narratives, pressure corporations into policing334speech, and lobby Federal agencies behind closed doors,335encouraging the Federal Government to treat ideological dissent336as a threat to civil rights law or domestic security.337    This is a broader ideological campaign designed to narrow338the boundaries of acceptable speech, to define traditional339religious beliefs as dangerous, to collapse the distinction340between advocacy and violence, and to shift the Federal civil341rights apparatus from its original purpose of protecting equal342treatment under law toward policing political dissent.343    That is why this hearing is so important, because we must344recognize that only a select committee equipped with subpoena345authority, forensic tools, and investigative staff can follow346the money, map the coordination, and expose how partisan347nonprofits embedded themselves into Federal civil rights348enforcement to intentionally undermine constitutional349liberties, as the so-called targets of these systems are not350violent extremists. They are ordinary Americans, parents,351pastors, students, and community leaders expressing their352values and exercising their constitutional rights.353    Civil rights law was not designed to punish people for354holding biblical beliefs or advocating for secure borders. The355incentives for expanding these extremist categories are356enormous. The SPLC now holds over $829 million in assets, with357an endowment exceeding $738 million and tens of millions stored358in offshore investment vehicles. Fear is profitable, and these359organizations have built a financial model around it.360    Today's hearing is a critical step to affirming a basic361truth. The Constitution, not the SPLC, not wealthy donors, not362activist bureaucrats, and certainly not political violence,363sets the bounds of our liberty. It is our duty to defend it. It364is important as we discuss this today to remember that we are365here to defend and protect the First Amendment, and we are not366suggesting that we shouldn't have groups that are able to367exercise all their First Amendment rights and speak clearly and368freely.369    We are saying that we ought to, as an oversight body, be370looking into the connections and the networks and how they are371extended into the decisionmaking of the Federal Government and372how they are being used to target average and everyday373Americans. The American people have a right to know and to see374and to understand it.375    With that, I will now yield to the Ranking Member for her376opening statement.377    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you and thank you to our witnesses for378appearing today.379    Our Republican colleagues call this the Subcommittee on the380Constitution and Limited Government. When Democrats are in381charge, we call I the Subcommittee on the Constitution, Civil382Rights, and Civil Liberties. It is clear from this hearing and383others that have preceded it that our colleagues' idea of384limited government only applies to the people and parts of our385society that they agree with.386    Otherwise, this administration and its allies are more than387happy to use the power of government to ruthlessly intrude in388Americans' lives, whether it is interfering in people's private389medical decisions made between themselves, their families, and390their doctors; banning children's books and censoring what391history they can learn in school; or silencing people and392institutions for speaking out or working for causes that Right-393wing extremists disagree with, which brings us to today's394hearing.395    This is just the latest act in a growing assault against396organizations that serve an important function in our society.397While today's hearing targets one particular group, the398Southern Poverty Law Center, it is part of a much larger attack399than on just one liberal institution. It is part of a broader400strategy by the Trump Administration and its Congressional401allies to silence and intimidate civil society.402    Civil society is not a concept that we have had to think403about much in these United States of America because, for the404most part, our leaders in government have generally respected405our bedrock American values of free speech and thought and the406equal and fair application of our laws, even when applied to407those with whom we disagree. Civil society is a diverse range408of institutions and people distinct from our government that409includes nongovernment organizations, universities, cultural410institutions, religious congregations, clubs, the free press,411social movements, and active citizens, indivisible groups.412    Civil society is a key part of our social fabric and serves413all of us by providing information and opportunities for414engagement, delivering important services, upholding our415rights, and helping to keep our government accountable. These416are organizations that Americans trust and contribute to417because they support our neighbors and our communities and418because they work to promote the common good and a better419America.420    This administration and some of its supporters have taken421steps to undermine and dismantle these civic institutions to422stifle dissent and consolidate power. In the words of423conservative columnist David Brooks, quote,424425        What is happening now is not normal politics. We are seeing an426        assault on the fundamental institutions of our civic life,427        things we should all swear loyalty to, Democrat, Independent,428        or Republican. This is a single effort to undo the parts of429        civilizational order that might restrain Trump's acquisition of430        power.431432    These actions are right out of the authoritarian playbook.433First, remove professional nonpartisan civil servants from key434government agencies, especially watchdogs, and replace them435with loyalists. Then weaponize these agencies against436individuals and organizations that might stand in opposition to437this administration's out-of-control agenda. Use the438Presidential bullhorn to undermine those who are meant to serve439as a check on the administration, whether it's the press, the440courts, labor unions, religious institutions, professionals441like doctors, lawyers, and scientists.442    Over the past year, we have seen this administration443attempt to intimidate and seek retribution against elected444officials who have sought to hold it accountable, as well as445civil society groups such as law firms that brought cases446challenging the President and his prior administration, schools447and universities that it considers ideological enemies, media448organizations, journalists, and comedians that have published449or broadcast stories and jokes critical of this administration,450public interest groups that advocate for causes and viewpoints451this administration doesn't like, and nonprofits dedicated to452work that runs counter to this President's political agenda.453    Take, for example, the fact that late last month, the454Department of Homeland Security suspended Federal funding for455Catholic charities of the Rio Grande Valley. Sister Norma456Pimentel, a close ally of Pope Francis, runs the organization457and has been lauded worldwide for her humanitarian work with458migrants, work that has put her and others who work with faith-459based immigration services in the crosshairs of anti-immigrant460politicians, particularly as Catholic leaders, including Pope461Leo and the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, have spoken462out against this administration's dehumanizing rhetoric and463cruel deportation activities.464    We have seen these efforts to suppress opposition to the465Trump agenda aided and abetted by Republicans here in Congress.466They have supported unilateral White House efforts to rescind467congressionally approved funding and bully the media, law468firms, universities, and nonprofits, despite their big talk469about freedom, individual liberties, and yes, limited470government.471    Instead, we now see this administration and its472Congressional allies attempting to paint ideological opponents473as domestic terrorists. In September, the administration issued474National Security Presidential Memorandum NSPM-7, singling out475those that it would characterize as anti-American,476anticapitalist, anti-Christian, or otherwise hostile toward the477so-called traditional views on questions of religion and478morality.479    In other words, this administration and its allies are480trying to redefine constitutionally protected speech against481this President and his administration as domestic terrorism.482This isn't a new playbook. During the McCarthy era,483conservative idealogues tried to paint Martin Luther King, Jr.,484and other civil rights leaders as dangerous communists. It goes485against everything our Constitution stands for.486    In the tradition of attacks on civil society as a whole, we487have seen a cottage industry of meritless conspiracy theories488grow and be leveled against the SPLC and other civil rights489organizations, groups that seek to ensure that all Americans490are given a seat at the table regardless of race or gender or491background.492    Throughout its history, the SPLC has done important work to493identify hate groups and extremist threats. It is exactly that494work that has made the SPLC and similar groups prime targets495for Right-wing forces now. Ultimately, these individual496baseless accusations are just a means to an end. They are part497of a larger goal to weaken and delegitimize the pillars of498civil society.499    A strong, robust civil society provides the infrastructure500we need for robust democratic self-governance. Right now, these501organizations and individuals that stand up for us, the ones502that people look to for protection against government503oppression, are under attack by this administration and its504allies. We as Americans mush push back because, while today the505target may be one particular group or those perceived to be506part of one particular political ideology, the next day, it507could easily be you or me.508    Without civil society and the stability and protection509these organizations provide us to counter creeping510authoritarianism and Right-wing propaganda, all our rights are511at risk because our fundamental rights, the freedoms and512principles we hold so proudly as Americans, are only guaranteed513if we stand up and defend them when they are under attack.514    I yield back my time but not my defense of our515Constitution, our civil rights, and liberties.516    Mr. Roy. I now recognize the Ranking Member of the Full517Committee, Mr. Raskin.518    Mr. Raskin. Thank you, Chair Roy.519    Welcome to all our witnesses here. Lethal hate crimes are520on the rise in America. We saw it at the Tree of Life521synagogue. We saw it in Buffalo at the Tops supermarket. We saw522it in El Paso, Texas, at Walmart. We saw it in Charleston,523South Carolina, at church.524    We see hate crimes every day across America. The President525does not talk about extremist racial violence or White526nationalism, which the Department of Homeland Security just a527couple years ago defined as America's greatest domestic terror528threat. The Trump Administration calls ANTIFA the most serious529terrorist threat in the country, although no one can tell us530where it is headquartered, who its leaders are, what its531structure is, how many members it has, or what crimes it is532responsible for committing.533    The FBI in the last few months abruptly cut ties with the534Anti-Defamation League, deliberately closing its eyes to the535episodes of antisemitism that the ADL wants to bring to the536attention of the country. The administration gutted the537Domestic Terrorism Operations Section of the FBI, which has538monitored threats by violent groups, including White539nationalists.540    President Trump, in fact, has a history of disturbing541actions in this field. He invited over for a lavish dinner in542Mar-a-Lago Nicholas Fuentes, a vicious neo-Nazi and Holocaust543denier who calls for annihilation of the Jews, and self-544proclaimed Hitler lover Ye.545    Infamously, Donald Trump said he saw very fine people on546both sides of an antisemitic riot in Charlottesville547accompanying the Unite the Right rally in 2018. He saw very548fine people marching down the boulevard, which led into an549antisemitic riot, a confusion that has not afflicted prior550Presidents like Franklin D. Roosevelt, who knew exactly which551side America needs to be on when Nazis are on the march.552    President Trump's immigration enforcement teams are553encouraged to violate people's civil rights, arresting people554solely on the basis of the language they speak or the color of555their skin. The President calls the refugees garbage. He calls556the Somali American community garbage. He uses expletives to557describe entire countries in Africa.558    He pardoned 1,600 rioters who attacked the U.S. Capitol and559our Constitution on January 6, 2021, including hundreds who560pled guilty to or were convicted of violently attacking our561police officers with baseball bats, steel pipes, broken562furniture, and bear mace. Many of those pardoned convicts563proudly carried Confederate battle flags and Nazi paraphernalia564into the Capitol, and many of them, since their pardons, have565gone on to commit other crimes against American citizens, like566terroristic threats, home invasion, armed robbery, rape, child567sex abuse material, trafficking, and so on.568    Now, in other times, Democrats and Republicans alike would569rely on the Southern Poverty Law Center to help us keep track570of the movements of violent White supremacy in the country. The571Southern Poverty Law Center has been a vigilant voice in civil572society against radical White nationalist violence and573extremism, neo-Naziism, and other forces across the political574spectrum that spread organized hate from any quarter.575    The President, however, wants to undermine civil society576organizations and to reduce our ability to defend ourselves577against the virus of racial violence. The administration is578engaged in a full-blown assault on civil society: The579nonprofits, the law firms, the universities, the independent580journalists who gather information, research the White581supremacist movement, and defend our freedom and our civil582rights and voting rights in court. The Majority, unfortunately,583now has chosen a hearing to promote its conspiracy theories584about the Southern Poverty Law Center simply for exercising its585First Amendment rights.586    If my friend the Chair is shocked and horrified that a587private group would call out hate speech and violence where it588arises, how does the Chair feel about actual government589officials accusing other government officials of various590crimes? On November 20th, President Trump accused six Members591of the House and Senate, quote, ``seditious behavior from592traitors. Lock them up,'' when all they did was to State the593uncontroversial truth the members of the Armed Forces have a594duty to refuse illegal orders.595    How does he feel about high-ranking Presidential aide596Stephen Miller saying the Democratic Party is not a political597party; it is a domestic extremist organization? Certainly, I598think it is more dangerous when you have government officials599engaging in speech like that.600    The Southern Poverty Law Center promotes nonviolence in601America, an interracial coalition, and peace. To my knowledge,602there has never been a single member of the Southern Poverty603Law Center in its more than five decades of existence that has604ever been convicted of participating in a violent crime. It is605the target of this hit job today, part of this broader attack606on the not-for-profit community.607    Long before the horrifying assassination of Charlie Kirk,608which I have vehemently denounced, the President and his allies609have targeted law firms that represent clients he doesn't like,610universities that don't follow a line of Right-wing dogma and611political correctness, and journalists who dare to report facts612critical of the Trump Administration's corruption and613authoritarianism. They now simply are using Mr. Kirk's murder614to engage in tactics imputing collective guilt, guilt by615association, and guilt by pure invention against civil society616groups that they don't like.617    This past September, President Trump issues an Executive618Order purporting to designate ANTIFA as a domestic terror619organization even though a senior FBI official struggled just620last week in testimony in Congress to explain how ANTIFA is621even an organization after claiming without irony that it is622the largest domestic threat facing the United States.623    More than 3,000 nonprofit groups have signed an open letter624asserting that the National Security Presidential Memorandum on625Countering Domestic Terrorism and Organized Political violence626is not about protecting Americans or defending the public627interest. It's about using unchecked power to silence628opposition and voices that the President disagrees with.629    To put it bluntly, the Trump Justice Department seeks to630redefine any kind of political dissent against him as domestic631terrorism. That is a classic Orwellian and authoritarian tactic632that anybody who loves freedom should reject. We must hold a633hearing on the Trump Administration's attempt to criminalize634political dissent in the country. Instead, we get this hearing635rehashing the same old lies about the Southern Poverty Law636Center.637    Mr. Chair, we can do a lot better than this. We should all638be working together to oppose real political violence and639terror, which remain a plague on the land. We must denounce640political violence across the spectrum. We should allow any641civil society group to call out extremism, terrorism,642fanaticism, and violence as they see it.643    Today, we missed the mark a lot by targeting one group644only, which has always proclaimed its fidelity to the645Constitution, to civil peace, and to nonviolence in the646country.647    I yield back to you, Mr. Chair.648    Mr. Roy. I thank the Ranking Member.649    Without objection, I will introduce into the record a story650by Snopes entitled, ``No, Trump Did Not Call Neo-Nazis and651White Supremacists Very Fine People.''652    Without objection, all other opening statements will be653included in the record.654    We will now introduce today's witnesses.655    Mr. Tyler O'Neil. Mr. O'Neil is a Senior Editor of The656Daily Signal, where his reporting focuses on nonprofit657organizations and where he looks into and investigates the flow658of dollars and the extent to which nonprofit organizations and659how they're founded and how they're connected. He previously660was an editor at PJ Media and Fox News and is the author of two661books.662    Mr. Tony Perkins. Mr. Perkins is the President of the663Family Research Council, a nonprofit organization that664advocates for family centered policies. He is an ordained665minister and previously served as the Chair and Vice Chair of666the United States Commission on International Religious667Freedom. Mr. Perkins also previously served as a member of the668Louisiana House of Representatives.669    Mr. Andrew Sypher. Mr. Sypher is the Vice President of670field operations at Turning Point USA, a nonprofit organization671that advocates for fiscal responsibility, free markets, and672limited government. She oversees the organization's support of673more than 2,000 high school and college chapters across the674country.675    Ms. Amanda Tyler. Ms. Tyler is the Executive Director of676the Baptist Joint Committee for Religious Liberty, a nonprofit677organization that advocates on matters of religion. She678previously worked in Congress and private law practice.679    We thank our witnesses for appearing today, and we will680begin by swearing you in. Would you please rise and raise your681right hand? Do you swear or affirm under penalty of perjury682that the testimony you are about to give is true and correct to683the best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help684you God?685    Let the record reflect that the witnesses have answered in686the affirmative. You may be seated. Please know that your687written testimony will be entered into the record in its688entirety, accordingly, we ask that you summarize your testimony689in five minutes.690    Mr. O'Neil, we will begin with you. I will remind you to691turn your microphone on and stay within the five-minutes. Thank692you.693694                   STATEMENT OF TYLER O'NEIL695696    Mr. O'Neil. Chair Roy and the Members of the Subcommittee,697imagine that an organization notorious for comparing mainstream698conservatives and Christians to the Ku Klux Klan, which699inspired a literal domestic terror attack and has ties to700ANTIFA, advised the Federal Government on how to counter the701domestic terrorism threat.702    This Orwellian nightmare isn't a hypothetical; it actually703happened in the Biden Administration. It is the reason I am704testifying before you today. In the next few minutes, I will705explain just how biased the SPLC is, its influence in the706previous administration, and why this should concern every707American.708    The SPLC gained its reputation by suing Ku Klux Klan groups709into bankruptcy. Now it weaponizes that reputation, putting710mainstream conservative and Christian groups on a hate map with711clan chapters. It uses this map to scare donors into712contributing to its $786 million endowment and to demonize its713political and ideological opponents by suggesting opposition to714its agenda is driven by hate.715    On the hate map are moms and dads who oppose critical race716theory in schools, doctors who question the grotesque717transgender treatments euphemistically referred to as gender-718affirming care, and even lesbians and gays who oppose drag719queen story hour.720    The hate map inspired a terrorist attack at the Family721Research Council in Washington, DC. The man who opened fire at722the ongressional baseball game practice, had liked the SPLC on723Facebook, and supported Bernie Sanders. The SPLC also added724Turning Point USA to the hate map mere months before Charlie725Kirk's assassination.726    Yet, none of this led the Biden Administration to think727twice about working with the SPLC. The Biden White House hosted728the SPLC at least 18 times. Biden nominated an SPLC attorney to729a top Federal judgeship. He touted the SPLC's help in the White730House's strategy to combat antisemitism.731    More disturbing, however, was the SPLC's influence on732Federal law enforcement. The FBI's Richmond office cited the733SPLC on radical traditional Catholic hate groups. The FBI734rushed to rescind the memo when a brave whistleblower published735it.736    Yet, it seems the Justice Department's Civil Rights737Division had no such compunction over its close ties to the738SPLC. In fact, the division's head, Kristen Clarke, took a739break from prosecuting prolife protestors to meet with SPLC740leaders and the staff in March 2023?741    Also, when the SPLC added Moms for Liberty to the hate map742in 2023, it shared an embargoed copy of the report with the743civil rights division. An SPLC researcher brief DOJ prosecutors744on the threat of the ant-LGBTQ movement? Why does this matter?745The SPLC has suggested that merely quoting the Catechism of the746Catholic Church is enough evidence of anti-LGBTQ hate to land747you on the map.748    For years, the SPLC defended itself from the charge of749being anti-Christian by noting that it does not put every750organization that upholds biblical sexual morality on the hate751map. It only cited one piece of evidence for this claim: Its752decision not to put Focus on the Family on the map. As it turns753out, the language responding to the anti-Christian charge754disappeared from the website recently, and this year, SPLC755added Focus on the Family to the hate map.756    The SPLC acts as the Left's ideological enforcer, narrowing757the parameters of socially acceptable debate. Through the hate758map, it suggests that mere disagreement with its agenda on759immigration, critical race theory, or trans issues amounts to760bigotry. This contributes to the hostile climate in which761conservatives keep their mouths shut to avoid being accused of762racism, Islamophobia, or hate.763    It is no accident that activists use this hat map to764deplatform conservatives or that activist groups have tried to765pressure donor-advised funds to blacklist the SPLC's targets.766Law enforcement should not rely on such a biased anti-Christian767organization. The FBI Director Kash Patel was right to swear768off this partisan smear machine.769    Americans deserve to know just how much influence the SPLC770had in the Biden Administration. As Chair Jordan recently771noted, there is yet more to be revealed.772    [The prepared statement of Mr. O'Neil follows:]773774    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]775776    Mr. Roy. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. O'Neil.777    Mr. Perkins, you now have five minutes. Reminding you to778turn your microphone on.779780                   STATEMENT OF TONY PERKINS781782    Mr. Perkins. Chair Roy and the Members of the Subcommittee,783thank you for the opportunity to testify today.784    On August 15, 2012, our organization experienced firsthand785what happens when inflammatory rhetoric is legitimized by786respected institutions. That morning, an armed LGBTQ activist787named Floyd Corkins entered FRC's headquarters with a loaded788semiautomatic pistol, nearly 100 rounds of ammunition, and 15789Chick-fil-A sandwiches.790    He later admitted to the FBI that his intention was to kill791the people in the building and stuff the sandwiches into his792victims' mouths as a political statement. Corkins is the first793person convicted under the District's post-9/11 terrorism794statute. When the FBI asked him why he chose FRC, he told them795plainly, ``he found us via the Southern Poverty Law Center's796hate map.''797    Two years earlier, FRC became the first mainstream798Christian public policy organization labeled a hate group by799the SPLC. The SPLC not only placed us on a list, but they also800published an interactive map pinpointing our location, doxxing801us and making us a target.802    Despite appeals after the shooting, the SPLC refused to803remove us from their map. To the SPLC, the life-threatening804gunshot suffered by our African American building manager, Leo805Johnson, was little more than collateral damage, acceptable if806it intimidated Christians who uphold biblical teaching on807marriage and human sexuality.808    As was stated, once upon a time, SPLC did legitimate civil809rights work. Today, even former SPLC insiders have acknowledged810the organization's internal ethical failures and ideological811turn. The SPLC is an activist advocacy organization that, to812use a sports analogy, is not only a player, but they blow the813whistle, call the penalties, claiming authority to decide who814may speak while actively shaping the political fight815themselves.816    Their hate map isn't research. It is a political weapon817aimed at silencing viewpoints that the Left opposes. The legacy818media is a silent partner with them. When FRC was added to the819list, a Soros-funded group immediately demanded MSNBC and Chris820Matthews ban me from appearing on Hardball. Within days, the821SPLC label functioned like a verdict, treated as an822unquestionable fact without investigation or accountability.823The result is the silencing of conservative voices.824    More troubling, government agencies have used SPLC825materials to shape training and threat assessments. The826Department of Defense previously used SPLC materials in827trainings that cast suspicion on Christian organizations. Local828law enforcement agencies circulate SPLC lists as though they829were intelligence bulletins. Schools have incorporated SPLC's830material into curriculum, presented to children as objective831fact. Major corporations, from online platforms to payment832processors, have used SPLC's label to deny services, restrict833donations, and cutoff basic financial tools to Americans.834    Once a group is branded, the SPLC label functions like a835digital scarlet letter, deployed to restrict speech,836marginalize, and financially ruin individuals and837organizations. This is precisely the SPLC's intent, not to838fight violence, but to silence political and cultural opponents839one way or another.840    Labeling is not without consequence. The SPLC's agitation841propaganda has inspired more than one act of violence. In 2017,842Congressman Steve Scalise was shot and nearly killed by a man843immersed in SPLC online ecosystem that relentlessly demonized844conservatives. Prior to the shooting, the SPLC had called for845Steve to be removed from his GOP leadership position.846    Following this pattern, earlier this year, after months of847SPLC targeting, Charlie Kirk was assassinated in an environment848supercharged by ideological hostility toward social849conservatives. The SPLC and other groups in this Left-wing850ecosystem create an environment ripe for terrorism, a form of851terrorism in which influential public figures and media outlets852use incendiary but deniable rhetoric to incite anonymous853ideologically aligned individual to commit unpredictable and854often violent acts.855    The government, the media, and corporations should not856facilitate an organization that characterizes law-abiding857citizens in a way that suggests violence against them is858justified. The SPLC refuses to acknowledge its role in fueling859this hostility. Denial does not erase responsibility.860    If the SPLC is truly committed to reducing hate, then they861should drop the gun, take down the hate map, and stop feeding862the dynamic that pushes unstable individuals toward violence.863    In conclusion, Mr. Chair, just after midnight on August 15,8642012, I stood in the hospital waiting for our wounded building865manager to emerge from a long and complicated surgery. When he866did, I went into the recovery room to see him and to pray with867him.868    Then, I asked him the same question that the FBI agent869asked when we were reviewing the video footage of the shooting.870I said, ``Leo, this question has been swirling in my mind all871day. Why did you not shoot Corkins when you had taken his gun872and you had it trained on him as you were bleeding and about to873lose consciousness?'' Leo said, ``Because God told me not to.''874    That kind of restraint, the belief that life is sacred, is875what the SPLC refuses to acknowledge in the very people it876labels as dangerous. If we want a freer, safer, and more just877society, we must reject the SPLC's practice of ideological878blacklisting and ensure the government agencies, media outlets,879corporations, and schools stop outsourcing moral judgment to an880organization that has long abandoned neutrality and morality.881    [The prepared statement of Mr. Perkins follows:]882883    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]884885    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Mr. Perkins. I appreciate that886testimony.887    We will give Ms. Tyler some grace on her time as well. Feel888free to use the time as needed.889    Mr. Sypher, you now have five minutes. Reminding you to890turn your microphone on. Right before you begin, I do want to891say this. Obviously, all of us were horrified about what892happened to Charlie in September. I can't believe it has been893three months. I know that given your responsibilities in894dealing with university chapters that you were physically895present on the scene. Just know that we are praying for you,896for Charlie's family, for the entire, Mr. Perkins, USA family,897and appreciate your willingness to be here.898    You are now recognized for five minutes.899900                   STATEMENT OF ANDREW SYPHER901902    Mr. Sypher. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Good afternoon, Mr. Chair903and the Members of the Committee. My name is Andrew Sypher, and904I am the Executive Vice President of Field Operations for905Turning Point USA.906    In my many years leading our operations, I have overseen907the chapter growth at colleges and high schools, building the908largest campus chapter organization in the country. I have also909managed our campus events, including Charlie Kirk's ``Prove Me910Wrong,'' tables or his passion for open dialog with disagreeing911students that made him a social media giant, reaching millions912of young people through tough, humanizing conversations.913    Over the years, Charlie and Turning Point have been914attacked by groups like the Southern Poverty Law Center, which915villainizes our open-dialog approach on campuses. The SPLC916hastily labels ideologically opposing organizations as hate917groups, misleading well-intentioned entities and blurring the918line between real hate and mere differences of opinion.919    Charlie warned just before his murder that the SPLC's hate920map designation equating campus kids who promote the921Constitution, the Bill of Rights, and prolife, profamily values922with the KKK and neo-Nazis would put Turning Point in the923crosshairs. This proved prophetic. Just months later, an924assassin took Charlie Kirk's life on campus during one of those925open-dialog events that often lowered tensions and fostered926healthy debate among young people.927    Charlie embodied what made America great: Free speech.928Students flocked to these exchanges, not just for929entertainment, but to witness how conversations labeled930triggering or hateful by the Left could humanize even the931toughest of opponents.932    This is the work we continue in Charlie's legacy. We reject933the idea that more speech is hate speech. Hate festers when934institutions shut down dialog, creating divides and equating935ordinary Americans with home-grown terrorism, what we call the936coddling of the American mind.937    We have seen this animosity firsthand. I was standing just938ten feet to his left when Charlie was assassinated at Utah939Valley University, an act later condoned and justified by some940of the very people who labeled him and Turning Point a hate941group.942    At places like Berkeley, where we recently held a943prescheduled event, violent protestors gathered and injured944civilians. This mirrors years of organized protests involving945groups like ANTIFA breaking doors, destroying property, setting946fires, and intimidating our attendees.947    Since Charlie's death, political violence against948conservatives has only risen. I urge this Committee to act949decisively. We cannot allow biased organizations like the SPLC950to arbitrarily dictate good and evil in our government and951culture or to weaponize the hate label against ideological952opponents.953    My hope is that this becomes America's turning point, that954we never forget Charlie Kirk's murder, and that Congress955confronts the brewing political violence in our midst. Thank956you.957    [The prepared statement of Mr. Sypher follows:]958959    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]960961    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Mr. Sypher. Thank you for your962testimony. Ms. Tyler, you have five minutes. Reminding you to963turn your microphone on, and a little grace on the five minutes964if you need it.965966                   STATEMENT OF AMANDA TYLER967968    Ms. Tyler. Thank you. Good afternoon, Chair Roy, Ranking969Member Scanlon, and the Members of the Subcommittee. I am970Amanda Tyler, Executive Director of Baptist Joint Committee for971Religious Liberty.972    As a faithful Christian and a patriotic American, I am973honored to be here this afternoon to offer testimony about why974the treatment of civil society organizations is directly975relevant to religious liberty and First Amendment protections.976    First, I mourn with the Jewish community in the wake of the977deadly antisemitic attack at Bondi Beach in Australia this978weekend. This latest attack, fueled by antireligious hate, is a979tragic reminder of the need for a united front that will stand980against every instance of violence and actively work to981dismantle the ideologies that drive that violence.982    For 89 years, the BJC has worked to advance faith freedom983for all. The BJC has a consistent record of supporting both of984the First Amendment's religion clauses, no establishment and985free exercise. Our commitment to religious freedom stems from986the historical experiences of early Baptists, who suffered the987pain of persecution that resulted from religious fervor coupled988with the coercive power of the State.989    The BJC works with a diverse group of organizations, both990secular and religious, and various coalitions. Depending on the991case or the policy we are working on, we may find ourselves on992the same or opposing sides with other groups that work on993religious freedom issues or other concerns that are crucial to994our pluralistic democracy.995    Nonprofits, religious and secular, are essential to996American democracy, creating opportunities for civic997engagement, caring for neighbors, and standing up to abuses of998power. When government attacks these institutions, especially999during moments of instability or when government services are1000strained, communities suffer.1001    American civil society represents the broad diversity of1002the American people. Dissent and disagreement between these1003groups is a hallmark of a free society. We cannot conflate1004policy disagreement with dangerous conduct. The government and1005especially law enforcement, should respond to facts, not1006ideology.1007    Civil rights organizations, Southern Poverty Law Center1008included, are part of the essential infrastructure of American1009civil society. Civil rights organizations have historically1010helped communities in many ways, including documenting and1011combating discrimination and racially motivated violence,1012ensuring access to justice, providing education and services1013where government capacity is limited, supporting those targeted1014by bigotry or political retaliation, and strengthening1015democracy by defending constitutional rights.1016    Today, as communities face rising extremism, political1017polarization, and gaps in Federal support, these organizations1018remain crucial, often stepping in where government has stepped1019back. Today's hearing is not about one nonprofit. Instead,1020hearings like this one serve to normalize the idea that1021government should use oversight, enforcement, and public1022rhetoric to punish and make examples of organizations whose1023viewpoints or work challenge the administration's agenda.1024    Such retaliation can chill advocacy, undermine1025constitutional norms, and threaten the independence of the1026nonprofit sector. The government targeting of nonprofits should1027concern all Americans. A functioning democracy depends on the1028ability of organizations across the spectrum of viewpoints to1029debate without fear of retaliation.1030    What begins as political retaliation against civil society1031organizations quickly becomes a threat to conscience rights,1032religious pluralism, and the foundational First Amendment1033protections that safeguard all people and all faith1034communities.1035    Religious liberty depends on a government that remains1036neutral when it comes to religion, neither favoring nor1037denigrating any religious viewpoint held by individuals and1038groups. The government misuse of its authority, whether through1039investigations, rhetoric, or selective enforcement, creates a1040climate where religious people, houses of worship, and faith-1041based charities are put at risk.1042    For faith to remain free, it must never be used as a tool1043of political power. Religion must never be used as a proxy for1044threat or danger. There are no second-class faiths in this1045country. When the State elevates certain ideologies and1046stigmatizes others, it erodes both free expression and free1047exercise.1048    A vibrant and free civil society is core to religious1049liberty in our country, as well as essential to achieving the1050promise of our constitutional democracy that all belong, no1051matter how one worships, how one believes, or how one1052identifies religiously or not. Thank you.1053    [The prepared statement of Ms. Tyler follows:]10541055    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]10561057    Mr. Roy. Thank you, Ms. Tyler, for your testimony.1058    Without objection, the gentleman from Arizona, Mr. Biggs,1059will be permitted to participate in today's hearing for the1060purpose of questioning the witnesses if a Member yields him1061time for that purpose.1062    Without objection, we will now proceed under the five-1063minute rule with questions, and I will now recognize the1064gentlelady from Wyoming for five minutes.1065    Ms. Hageman. Thank you. Good afternoon everyone. We1066appreciate you joining us here for this important discussion.1067    The intended effect of SPLC's Hate Map is clear: By lumping1068mainstream conservative voices an organization in with actual1069Nazis and extremists the SPLC delegitimizes any opinion to the1070right of whatever line the SPLC deems acceptable.1071    Richard Cohen, the former President of the SPLC, when1072discussing whether ANTIFA would be listed, was quoted as saying1073that, quote, ``There might be forms of hate out there that you1074may consider hateful, but it's not the type of hate we1075follow.''1076    In June 2020, the SPLC published an analysis stating that1077designating ANTIFA as a domestic terrorist organization is1078dangerous and threatens civil liberties. Let that sink in.1079    According to the Southern Poverty Law Center's website, its1080hate data list for 2024 includes 1,371 groups, up from 599 in1081the year 2000. Some of the groups listed what we should expect:1082Neo-Nazis, the KKK, and others. However, this list lumps in1083countless conservative advocacy organizations including the1084Alliance for Defending Freedom, Moms for Liberty, Parents1085Defending Education, Turning Point USA, and the Family Research1086Council.1087    Now, Mr. Sypher and Mr. Perkins, you have both testified1088about the impact and the consequences of the SPLC designating1089your organizations as hate groups.1090    I am going to start with you, Mr. Perkins. Could you1091briefly describe or list any of the commonly held conservative1092beliefs that would lead the SPLC to classify your organization1093as a hate group?1094    Mr. Perkins. According to the SPLC the reason is our1095biblical view of marriage and human sexuality. That is what1096causes them to classify us as a hate group.1097    Ms. Hageman. As a result then you had the incident that you1098described during your testimony earlier. They actually put a1099target on your back, didn't they, Mr. Perkins?1100    Mr. Perkins. Correct. If you'll recall, back in 2012 there1101was a Chick-Fil-A Day where nationwide people went to Chick-1102Fil-A because Chick-Fil-A at the time had made a statement in1103support of natural marriage. Because we, along with then-1104Governor Mike Huckabee, now Ambassador Huckabee, had promoted1105that day, Corkins went to the map of SPLC to find FRC and he1106targeted us. It was also when he was arrested, he had a list in1107his pocket which had actually a couple of more Washington, DC-1108based organizations coming from the SPLC map.1109    Ms. Hageman. Mr. Sypher, can you describe some of the1110beliefs of Turning Point USA that would warrant a listing as a1111hate group by the SPLC?1112    Mr. Sypher. For the record, none. We have three core1113beliefs at Turning Point USA. Charlie would always state them.1114First, the constitution is the greatest document to ever be1115written. Second, the U.S.A. is the greatest country to exist in1116this world. Third, that capitalism is the greatest economic1117system to lift people out of poverty.1118    Ms. Hageman. As a result of those three core beliefs SPLC1119has designated you as a hate group. Is that fair?1120    Mr. Sypher. Not at all.1121    Ms. Hageman. That is right. While there is no doubt that1122these designations can have a significant impact not only on1123the reputation and operation of listed organizations, tying1124them to the entities that are truly responsible for hateful1125acts and and violence, it actually inflames tensions and1126threatens individuals' safety, as you have both described.1127    One point that sticks out to me when looking through the1128center's hate data is that very few, if any, Left-wing1129extremist organizations and activities show up. In one of the1130more well-known examples, ANTIFA is conspicuously absent1131despite the SPLC's specifically maintaining categories for1132antigovernment extremist groups and general hate. In a more1133recent example, the SPLC failed to specifically condemn the1134violent actors endangering Jewish students at American1135universities following the horrific October 17th attack carried1136out by Hamas and supported by radical Islamists, including many1137right here in the United States of America.1138    Mr. O'Neil, could you briefly provide some insights on why1139they would exclude ANTIFA, pro-Palestinian, and pro-Hamas1140organizations on American campuses, Jane's Revenge, and other1141Left-wing extremist groups from their hate data framework?1142    Mr. O'Neil. They have ties to some of these organizations,1143particularly with ANTIFA. They hired a woman who is described1144as ANTIFA's secret weapon, a researcher. When it comes to--I1145can't speak to exactly why they don't, but what I can say is it1146is an absolute travesty that they will put organizations like1147Turning Point USA and Moms for Liberty as antigovernment1148extremist groups, comparable to the Klan in their view, and1149then not put actual groups that are hurling Molotov cocktails1150at government buildings.1151    Ms. Hageman. I think that you make a very good point. I'm1152out of time. I yield back. Thank you all for being here today.1153    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady from Wyoming for her1154questions.1155    I will now recognize the Ranking Member, the gentleman from1156Maryland, Mr. Raskin, for five minutes.1157    Mr. Raskin. Mr. Chair, thank you. Maps are protected by the1158First Amendment. You can make a flat Earth map, you can make a1159map of s--hole countries, as designated by Donald Trump, you1160can make a map that calls the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of1161America or the Gulf of Mexico. If you don't like somebody1162else's map, you make your own map. That is basic John Stuart1163Mill. That is what we do under the First Amendment. We have got1164an entire hearing organized around one map published by one1165group.1166    Look, I am someone who is an ardent defender of freedom of1167speech, on all sides. People also should be held responsible1168for the speech they engage in. Legally we can hold them1169responsible only if their speech incites imminent lawless1170action and violence. That is the Brandenburg standard. Short of1171that--or engages in defamation, for example. Short of that, we1172hold them accountable morally and politically. There is nothing1173wrong with the process of saying I don't like your speech, I1174don't like your map.1175    Of course, it would be good if we had a real hearing that1176was about hate speech generally in the country or speech that1177endangers other people. For example, a number of the mass1178murderers who showed up in Buffalo or in El Paso and killed1179dozens of people themselves in their manifestos and their1180social media statements said that they were acting based on the1181statement that--and the well-known conspiracy theory that1182George Soros is engaged in a plan to replace the American1183population, the so-called great replacement theory. Does that1184mean we can ban that speech? No, we can't ban that, but1185certainly we should talk about it, and we should talk about the1186moral implications of people engaged in.1187    Same thing with people in the Pro-Life Movement who call1188doctors and physicians, who are OB/GYNs, baby killers, which1189has led in many cases to doctors being murdered or violently1190assaulted, or attacks on abortion clinics. It is true that1191speech does have a real world effect even though in our society1192we only allow it to be punished if it is incitement to imminent1193lawless action, or analogous to that.1194    Ms. Tyler, let me ask you: I think that we don't want1195violent attacks against the Southern Poverty Law Center. I know1196you don't work for them. You work for the Baptist Committee,1197right?1198    Ms. Tyler. That's right. I work for Baptist Joint Committee1199for Religious Liberties.1200    Mr. Raskin. OK. Is the Southern Poverty Law Center a hate1201group like the Ku Klux Klan or the Neo-Nazis? Do they proclaim1202interest in violence or nonviolence, and has anybody at the1203Southern Poverty Law Center ever been convicted of engaging in1204a conspiracy to murder to engage in violence against anybody1205including Charlie Kirk?1206    Ms. Tyler. I know of no reports of that violence, and I1207know of SPLC as a civil rights organization that tries to draw1208awareness to White supremacy and files legal action to protect1209our civil rights laws.1210    Mr. Raskin. OK. The way that we sort this out in an1211organized society under the rule of law is that if somebody1212actually engages in a conspiracy to murder, or aids and abets a1213murder, or imminently incites violence against someone, they1214can be prosecuted. Short of that, if they engage in speech,1215especially the kind of speech the SPLC is involved in, which is1216trying to stop hate violence in the country, then we1217essentially leave them alone, except for some reason we have1218decided to have an entire hearing about one map created by this1219one group.1220    Look, if we really wanted to promote nonviolent peaceful1221discourse in the country and to promote greater understanding1222and civil peace, which I hope everybody in this room could get1223behind, what would we be doing? What are you doing to try to1224promote civil peace and civil conversation and dialog?1225    Ms. Tyler. Well, one thing we do at Baptist Joint1226Committee, along with a number of other organizations, is1227trying to draw awareness to our First Amendment protections for1228religious freedom, and to make space for all different views on1229religion, and to help people have some tough conversations1230including in religious communities. One of the projects that we1231work on is something called Christians Against Christian1232Nationalism. We don't shy away from difficult topics that we1233believe do contribute to different--1234    Mr. Raskin. OK. I am running out of time, but just tell us1235finally what do you think is behind this really extraordinary1236attack on civil society organizations and particular groups1237like the Southern Poverty Law Center?1238    Ms. Tyler. Well, I see this as an attack on civil society,1239as a way to try to quash dissent, as a way to chill advocacy.1240That I really fear for the future of our pluralistic democracy1241if groups and individuals succumb to the intimidation. This is1242a moment that we all need to be leaning into our democratic1243society and participating like many of us have never done so1244before.1245    Mr. Raskin. Thank you. I yield back, Mr. Chair.1246    Mr. Roy. I thank the Ranking Member, Mr. Raskin. I will now1247recognize the gentleman from North Carolina, Mr. Harris, for1248five minutes.1249    Mr. Harris. Thank you, Mr. Chair and thanks to all of you1250on our panel today.1251    Something that has been concerning to me is the Biden-1252Harris Administration's targeting of Catholics in Richmond for1253being so-called extremists. It was thanks to the investigative1254work done by this Committee that we learned at the Biden-Harris1255Administration relied on the Southern Poverty Law Center and1256its memo that labeled traditional Catholics as domestic1257terrorist threats.1258    I applaud FBI Director Kash Patel's decision to terminate1259the FBI relationship with the SPLC, although such a1260relationship should have been terminated a long, long time ago.1261    Mr. Sypher, what does it say to you about the Biden1262Administration's view of conservatives that they were using a1263resource that categorized conservative groups like ADF and1264Family Research Council among the likes of the Aryan1265Brotherhood and the Nation of Islam?1266    Mr. Sypher. Mr. Harris, thank you. What it shows is that1267the Biden-Harris Administration did not truly care about what1268most Americans believe. Turning Point USA represents what most1269Americans believe, in the nuclear family. They believe in law1270and order. Those very things are the things that the SPLC uses1271in their very biased approach in targeting and labeling1272Christian conservative organizations.1273    Mr. Harris. Well, thank you, sir. Mr. Perkins, your1274organization advocates from a Christian world view, but was1275labeled a hate group by the Southern Poverty Law Center for1276taking stances that align with simply biblical teaching. I want1277to ask you a few questions, Mr. Perkins. Is the Christian world1278view hateful?1279    Mr. Perkins. No.1280    Mr. Harris. Is it affirming that there are only two genders1281hateful?1282    Mr. Perkins. No.1283    Mr. Harris. Is believing God created marriage between a man1284and a woman hateful?1285    Mr. Perkins. No. It's the reason we're all here today.1286    Mr. Harris. Is the Christian world view that teaches the1287very morals on which this Nation was founded hateful?1288    Mr. Perkins. No, sir.1289    Mr. Harris. Does disapproving of someone's actions mean1290that you hate them?1291    Mr. Perkins. No. The definition that the SPLC holds out is1292one that's trying to prevent violence. Words are not violent1293when you're having a disagreement over public policy. You1294should be free to do so. We advocate for their rights and their1295freedom to do that. As a former police officer, as a Marine1296veteran I protected the First Amendment right. As the issue1297here today is not a map; it's who uses the map. Government1298agencies should rely on transparent peer-reviewed criteria, not1299partisan advocacy groups. We should implement safeguards1300against unverified external lists used by government to target1301peace-loving, law-abiding citizens.1302    Mr. Harris. Well, according to a Gallup poll 69 percent of1303Americans identify with a Christian denomination. Now, of1304course, you and I know that there's a diversity of beliefs1305within Christianity, but what does it say about the SPLC that1306they would label as hateful a group that aligns with the1307identity of the majority of our country?1308    Mr. Perkins. Well, that they are anti-Christian for one,1309and biblical truth. I would even question whether or not1310they're pro-American.1311    Mr. Harris. Thank you, sir. Mr. O'Neil, I worry that not1312every organization may have the resources to be able to deal1313with the consequences of being placed on SPLC's Hate Map. What1314are some of the challenges that you will see that may arise1315within an organization if they happen to land or be labeled a1316hate group by this group?1317    Mr. O'Neil. Yes, there are many challenges. It chills some1318donors who are afraid that because of the Hate Map, the hate1319group designation, their information might be leaked, and then1320they would face repercussions for giving to an organization1321they believe in.1322    There are also--I have a list here--Alphabet used it for1323YouTube as a trusted flagger. AmazonSmile excluded conservative1324and Christian. By the way, not always conservative and1325Christian; there are some very nonpartisan and Left-leaning1326groups on this map. They excluded them on AmazonSmile.1327Benevity, which works with hundreds of companies to determine1328where their employees can give to charities has bragged about1329using the SPLC Hate Map to determine which nonprofits can1330receive money. There are many ways in which an organization can1331be negatively impacted by being put on this map.1332    Mr. Harris. Well, thank you. Thanks to all of you as1333witnesses. Mr. Chair, thank you for bringing this before the1334American people. I yield back.1335    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from North Carolina. I will1336now recognize the Ranking Member for some unanimous consent1337requests.1338    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I would seek unanimous consent to1339introduce into the record several articles. The first would be1340from America Magazine. ``Trump Administration threatens Sister1341Norma Pimentel's migrant aid with a 6-year funding ban.'' That1342is dated December 15, 2025. This is from the Catholic Standard,1343``Vance with U.S. bishops over their pushback on Trump's1344immigration policy,'' dated January 20, 2025. ``The U.S.1345Bishops Special Message,'' dated November 12, 2025, addressing1346their concern for the immigration policy of the Trump1347Administration.1348    Mr. Roy. Without objection. I will now recognize the1349gentleman from Tennessee for five minutes.1350    Ms. Cohen. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I listened to all your1351opening statements, and the Chair and the Ranking Member, and1352everybody here until I came down.1353    One thing concerned me. Ms. Tyler, I'd like to ask you Mr.1354O'Neil said that the Southern Poverty Law Center was anti-1355Christian. It upsets me greatly when any group is anti-Jewish,1356anti-Catholic, anti-Muslim, and anti-Christian. Does the1357Southern Poverty Law Center have any Church of God and Christ1358folks that maybe support them, and Baptists, Southern Baptists1359folk, and Methodists, et cetera, et cetera?1360    Ms. Tyler. I don't work for the Southern Poverty Law1361Center. I can't speak exactly, but what I hear you saying is1362there's a difference between being against a religion and and1363calling out ideologies, or hate speech in this case, which is1364what is the issue here that we're discussing.1365    Mr. Cohen. Is the Southern Poverty Law Center against1366Christian nationalism?1367    Ms. Tyler. I think that they have named White Christian1368nationalism as an ideology to watch, as something that does1369fuel hate-driven violence.1370    Mr. Cohen. Can you define White Christian nationalism for1371me?1372    Ms. Tyler. Yes. White Christian nationalism is this1373political ideology that seeks to merge American and Christian1374identities into one. Put another way, White Christian1375nationalism suggests that to be a real American that one has to1376be a Christian. It does provide cover for White supremacy and1377racial subjugation. As I mentioned earlier, to be against1378Christian nationalism is not to be anti-Christian.1379    Mr. Cohen. Right.1380    Ms. Tyler. I am a Christian and I represent many, many more1381people, Christians, who are horrified to see our faith used to1382justify discrimination, to justify exclusion, and in some cases1383violence.1384    Mr. Cohen. What are some of the other things that--I know1385you're not necessarily a spokesperson for the Southern Poverty1386Law Center, but what are some of the other things they stand1387for and support, and oppose?1388    Ms. Tyler. Yes, I know them as a historic civil right1389organization that stands as against White supremacy, that1390stands against antisemitism, that has brought critical1391litigation against the Ku Klux Klan, that stands for supporting1392civil rights and making sure particularly in the American South1393that our promise of equal protection of the law and all our1394other civil rights and liberties are protected to the fullest1395extent of the law.1396    Mr. Cohen. Well, Mr. O'Neil or maybe Mr. Perkins both1397mentioned the history of the Southern Poverty Law Center being1398outstanding. Then, Mr. Roy did, too, that they used to bring1399cases. I still think they do bring cases that are important.1400Julian Bond was a very close friend of mine and somebody I know1401Mr. Raskin knew. He was a great American. He was one of the1402founders of the Southern Poverty Law Center. Morris Dees as was1403a very strong spokesperson for civil rights and support. He was1404one of the founders.1405    Mr. O'Neil, is there anything you can help me with on1406Christian groups that they--not Christian groups, but the fact1407your statement that the Southern Poverty Law Center is anti-1408Christian? How is the Southern Poverty Law Center anti-1409Christian?1410    Mr. O'Neil. Yes. There is this document called the1411Catechism of the Catholic Church. It lays out the belief1412statements for Catholics, one billion people across the world.1413    Mr. Cohen. Whose statement? Is that the Southern Poverty1414Law Center?1415    Mr. O'Neil. No. This is published by the Catholic Church.1416    Mr. Cohen. OK. Mr. O'Neil. By the Magisterium of the1417Catholic Church.1418    The Southern Poverty Law Center when they decided to put1419the Ruth Institute, which is a small charity in Louisiana, one1420of the groups that it finds it difficult to respond and have1421the money to respond to the negative defamation of the Southern1422Poverty Law Center, in justifying putting them on the Hate Map1423the SPLC quoted--and they didn't just quote it once, they1424quoted it twice--they quoted the president of the Ruth1425Institute just saying that the Catholic Church believes--and1426this is the statement of faith for all Catholics, remember,1427that homosexual activity is intrinsically disordered.1428    The SPLC put that on there twice, suggesting that just1429believing what one billion Catholics ostensibly say they1430believe justifies you being on the Hate Map. If there is1431anything more anti-Christian than that, I'm not sure what it1432is.1433    Mr. Cohen. Frankly, what did the Ruth Institute do to have1434this SPLC come at it?1435    Mr. O'Neil. Yes. The Ruth Institute advocates for survivors1436of the sexual revolution. That is what they call people who1437suffer from family breakdown.1438    The President of the Ruth Institute, Jennifer Roback Morse,1439has gone on the radio many times. She is a devout Catholic. She1440has cited the eight positions of the Catholic Church. It is1441those statements of faith from the Catholic Church that derive1442directly from the Catechism that the Southern Poverty Law1443Center decided was hateful enough to cite as evidence to put1444her on the Hate Map.1445    Mr. Cohen. They put her on the Hate Map?1446    Mr. O'Neil. Yes. They put her on the Hate Map. They have1447not put the Catholic Church on the Hate Map. Though, by putting1448her on the Hate Map in this way they have suggested that the1449entire Catholic Church should be on the Hate Map. This is1450something I would love Democrats--1451    Mr. Cohen. That is wrong. You take one example, Ms. Morse,1452and put her on a Hate Map and say that is the entire Catholic1453Church? I don't think Pope Leo would be put on that group, I1454wouldn't think.1455    Mr. O'Neil. Well, Pope Leo stands for the faith statements1456in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.1457    If the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a hateful1458document that justifies putting you on the Hate Map, then he1459belongs on the Hate Map, logically, based on the Southern1460Poverty Law Center's own presentation.1461    Mr. Cohen. Ms. Tyler, do you know anything about this lady1462for the group?1463    Ms. Tyler. I do not.1464    Mr. Cohen. OK. Anything else Mr. O'Neil that makes you1465think--I know a lot of ministers that are Church of God in1466Christ ministers who support the SPLC.1467    Mr. O'Neil. Yes.1468    Mr. Cohen. There are a lot of Black Baptist churches, maybe1469not Southern Baptist Churches, maybe there are Black Southern1470Baptist Churches, too, that support the SPLC.1471    Mr. O'Neil. The other aspect is,--1472    Mr. Cohen. They are Christian.1473    Mr. O'Neil. --and something I mentioned in the testimony,1474that the SPLC for a long time, because groups like Tony's had1475been put on the Hate Map, the SPLC claims it isn't because they1476stand for marriages between a man and woman, but that is1477essentially what it boils down to if you look at the history of1478why they chose to put them on there.1479    The SPLC has defended themselves from the charge of being1480anti-Christian for years. The fact they changed this language1481once from anti-LGBT to anti-LGBTQ in explaining on their1482website, so, they stood by this. They said when they were1483called anti-Christian they said, ``no, we are not anti-1484Christian because we don't put every Christian group that1485stands for the traditional definition of marriage on the Hate1486Map.''1487    They only had one piece of evidence for this. That was that1488they didn't put Focus on the Family on the Hate Map. Then,1489earlier this year the language defending themselves from the1490anti-Christian charge disappeared from their website and they1491put Focus on the Family on the Hate Map.1492    Mr. Cohen. My time is up. Thank you for--1493    Mr. Roy. Mr. Cohen, I like the spirited back and forth and1494the way you handled that. I was happy to let it go overtime.1495    Mr. Cohen. Thank you.1496    Mr. Roy. I appreciate your questions. I now recognize the1497gentleman from California for five minutes.1498    Mr. McClintock. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First, I agree with1499Mr. Raskin that the Southern Poverty Law Center has a right to1500say whatever it is that they want to say. The reason we defend1501outrageous speech like theirs is because we have the same1502freedom as men and women of good will to call them out on it.1503    That is what I see as the purpose of this hearing today, to1504call them out for truly outrageous and patently unfair and1505hypocritical allegations. That is the point that Ms. Hagerman1506made.1507    Ms. Tyler says, well, this is an attempt to intimidate and1508chill SPLC's speech. Well, that is an interesting perspective,1509considering the fact that the SPLC's stock in trade is to1510intimidate and chill the speech of anyone they disagree with,1511mainstream conservative groups like Turning Point USA, and the1512Family Research Council, the Federation for American1513Immigration Reform, Moms for Liberty, and the Center for1514Immigration Studies.1515    Mr. O'Neil, have they ever called out ANTIFA? I think did I1516understand you to say they actually had ANTIFA activists1517involved with their organization??1518    Mr. O'Neil. Yes. They had a woman who was described as1519ANTIFA's secret weapon. She was profiled in Wired Magazine1520describing her that way.1521    Mr. McClintock. Well, what was--1522    Mr. O'Neil. She was hired full time. Then, they also had a1523man who was charged with domestic terrorism for his role in a1524Molotov cocktail riot in 2023. He is an SPLC attorney.1525    Mr. McClintock. Well, they are calling Turning Point USA1526and Family Research Council hate groups. Have they ever called1527out the Animal Liberation Front for their vandalism and violent1528attacks they have made, or Jane's Revenge?1529    Mr. O'Neil. No.1530    Mr. McClintock. Weather Underground?1531    Mr. O'Neil. No.1532    Mr. McClintock. How about Students for Justice in Palestine1533or any--1534    Mr. O'Neil. No.1535    Mr. McClintock. --of the Palestinian groups that are1536responsible for violence on our campuses, for intimidating and1537threatening, in some cases attacking Jewish students; have they1538called out any of these as hate groups?1539    Mr. O'Neil. That would be another no. Also, when the1540October 7th attack happened they waited three weeks before1541issuing a statement. Then, they falsely accused Israel of1542targeting civilians.1543    Mr. McClintock. How about the Council on American-Islamic1544Relations that was just declared a terrorism organization by1545the State of Florida? Have they ever called them a hate group?1546    Mr. O'Neil. No. They work very closely with them.1547    Mr. McClintock. How about the Turtle Island Liberation1548Front that was just implicated in the news today in a massive1549plot to detonate multiple bombs throughout Southern California1550to create a mass casualty attack against Americans?1551    Mr. O'Neil. No. Not present on the Hate Map.1552    Mr. McClintock. Those are not hate groups according to the1553SPLC, but Turning Point USA, Family Research Council, and the1554other mainstream conservative groups are.1555    Do I have that correct?1556    Mr. O'Neil. Gays Against Groomers, which is a LGBT group1557that opposes drag queen story hour.1558    Mr. McClintock. The other question that has been raised is,1559well, why does this rise as a fit object for a Congressional1560hearing is simply because this group, with assets of hundreds1561of millions of dollars, has been advising both government1562agencies to direct their powers against these Americans, as1563well as advising financial institutions and social media1564platforms.1565    Social media platforms, of course, is the prime public1566square of today's society, discouraging the very right of these1567groups to even express themselves.1568    Mr. O'Neil. Exactly. There are few organizations that1569engage in the chilling of civil society more than the Southern1570Poverty Law Center.1571    Mr. McClintock. I have got about a minute-and-a-half left.1572I yield to Mr. Biggs.1573    Mr. Biggs. I thank the gentleman for yielding. I will just1574echo one of the points you made is that stock in trade at SPLC1575is to do exactly what they are decrying other groups, and that1576is to intimidate, bully, scare, and go after.1577    In so doing they make mistakes. They made a mistake with1578FRC. They made a mistake with Turning Point USA.1579    Here is one. I would like to submit these article for the1580record: ``Southern Poverty Law Center settles lawsuit after1581falsely labeling extremist organization;'' ``The Southern1582Poverty Law Center apologizes to Ben Carson,'' takes him off1583extremist list; ''Southern Poverty Law Center has lost all1584credibility;'' ``Has a civil rights stalwart lost its way?'';1585and from the Freedom Socialist Party, ``Fighting Hate: The1586lucrative business of fighting hate: In-house bigotry rocks1587Southern Poverty Law Center.''1588    Mr. Roy. Without objection.1589    Mr. Biggs. With that I will yield back this at time.1590    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from California. I thank the1591gentleman from Arizona. I will now recognize, well, I will1592recognize the gentleman from Tennessee for something for the1593record, I think.1594    Mr. Cohen. Exactly. Thank you, sir. I introduce for the1595record an article that the ``SPLC Files Complaint Against Two1596Notorious Neo-Nazi Leaders and Goyim Defense League for1597Violating Civil Rights of Members of Nashville Jewish Center.''1598    Mr. Roy. Without objection. I now recognize the gentlelady1599from Washington for five minutes.1600    Ms. Jayapal. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1601    It is quite unprecedented for us to use the Committee time,1602valuable Committee time to target a specific group. Based on1603what I am hearing, the criticisms of the Southern Poverty Law1604Center seem to boil down to three things:16051606    (1)  That it has healthy finances and an endowment;1607    (2)  that it collaborated with the Department of Justice1608during the Biden Administration; and1609    (3)  that it calls out White supremacy, including White1610Christian Nationalism.16111612    I guess if my colleagues on the other side of the aisle are1613so hellbent on the finances of nonprofits, we could also talk1614about the Koch Brothers funding tens of hundreds of millions of1615dollars to the Cato Institute and Americans for Prosperity.1616    If they are so concerned about nonprofits collaborating1617with the Executive Branch, where do I even begin with the1618Heritage Foundation and Project 2025? Throughout his campaign1619Donald Trump disavowed the conservative nonprofit's policy1620blueprint when polls showed that it was deeply unpopular with1621the American people.1622    As soon as he took office, he made it the foundation of his1623policies by appointing at least half a dozen Project 20251624architects and supporters to oversee the Federal budget, mass1625deportations, cuts to healthcare and SNAP, dismantling of1626environmental protections, policies that harm all communities,1627and disproportionately target communities of color.1628    Now, maybe this shouldn't be a surprise. The President has1629a history of nominating or appointing officials with racist1630beliefs, including Paul Ingrassia and Carl Higbie. Architects1631of Project 2025 also have a very well-documented history of1632writing racist, writing statements or activity.1633    I won't repeat all of them here. I do have a visual right1634behind me with just a couple of examples, including assertions1635that Black people and immigrants have lower I.Q.s than White1636citizens.16371638        We have known for a while . . . that individuals differ in1639        their inherent capabilities. The racists do, too, with Whites1640        and Asians on the top, and Blacks on the bottom.16411642That was from Richard Hanania, contributor to Project 2025. How1643about this one:16441645        The ceaseless importation of Third World foreigners with no1646        tradition of, taste for, or experience in liberty, means that1647        the electorate grows more Left and less traditionally American.16481649Whatever that means--with every cycle. That is from Michael1650Anton, also a contributor to Project 2025. How about this one:16511652        The prediction that new Hispanic immigrants will have low I.Q.1653        children and grandchildren is difficult to argue against.16541655That is from Jason Richwine, contributor to Project 2025.1656    Just today I was reading an article about a Member of the1657Judiciary Committee who said,16581659        It is time for a Muslim travel ban, radical deportations of all1660        mainstream Muslim legal and illegal immigrants, and citizenship1661        revocations wherever possible. Mainstream Muslims have declared1662        war on us. The least we can do is kick them the hell out of1663        America.16641665    Do people understand that there are two billion Muslims1666across the world? That is 25 percent of the global population.1667I am waiting to see if anybody on that side says anything about1668condemning those remarks about Muslims.1669    We should be very clear here about what is going on. Ms.1670Tyler, I just want to ask you, what role does rhetoric like1671these, these quotes that I mentioned, what role does it play in1672promoting White supremacy and violence?1673    What happens when we give people who espouse this kind of1674rhetoric more responsibility in our civic institutions?1675    Ms. Tyler. Well, rhetoric like this certainly furthers1676White supremacy and can further discrimination and,1677potentially, violence against marginalized communities.1678Particularly in the minds of violent extremists when it1679combines with more extreme views like the Great Replacement1680Theory, as it has done, and killed people in this country.1681    When this rhetoric is also espoused by people who hold1682government power, members of these marginalized communities1683will fear not just that violence might come to their community,1684but also that the force of government might be used against1685them in various ways.1686    Ms. Jayapal. Civil rights groups like the Southern Poverty1687Law Center have a long history of suing White supremacist1688groups for violent rhetoric and actions that target communities1689of color.1690    What are some of those lawsuits and why are they critical1691for keeping communities safe?1692    Ms. Tyler. Well, I think Mr. Cohen just referenced a recent1693lawsuit that was filed that involved a Jewish Community Center1694and some individuals who entered that with the intent to1695intimidate and potentially commit violence. They brought a1696lawsuit that included claims under the Ku Klux Klan Act.1697    Ms. Jayapal. This is such important work. Yet, we are1698trying to undermine the SPLC simply because it disagrees with1699far Right policies, and shines a spotlight on White supremacist1700ideology.1701    How has the Trump Administration used the power of the1702Federal Government to silence and weaken these groups like1703SPLC?1704    Ms. Tyler. Well, we have seen a number of actions this1705year. Some of them are rhetorical by blaming, for instance,1706Lutheran social service organizations, accusing them baselessly1707of money laundering. That was in the early DOGE attacks.1708    Then, more recently, with the Presidential Memorandum that1709has this very broad language that tries to link ideologies that1710are really ill-defined, ideologies like anticapitalism or anti-1711Christianity, trying to link those without evidence to violent1712conduct.1713    The impact of is that it will chill advocacy, that it tries1714to silence dissent. Because even if that Presidential1715Memorandum lacks the force of law, since there are no laws on1716the books around domestic terrorism, they do serve to be a1717warning to groups that if you oppose this administration that1718you will come under scrutiny, extra scrutiny, like this1719hearing.1720    Ms. Jayapal. A threat to free speech rights of some of us1721matter to all of us.1722    I thank you, Mr. Chair.1723    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady from Washington. I now1724recognize the gentleman from Missouri for five minutes.1725    Mr. Onder. Thank you, Mr. Chair. For more than two decades1726the Southern Poverty Law Center has operated its so-called Hate1727Map, a project it claims is meant to track extremist1728organizations, but which increasingly functions as a political1729weapon.1730    Since its launch in 2000, the number of groups labeled as1731hate groups has ballooned from 599-1,371. This dramatic1732increase does not reflect a sudden increase in extremism but,1733rather, SPLC's steady expansion of what it defines as hate, a1734definition that increasingly targets traditional Christian1735beliefs and conservative viewpoints.1736    Ms. Tyler, in your opinion is Alliance Defending Freedom a1737hate group?1738    Ms. Tyler. I don't work for SPLC. I wouldn't try to--1739    Mr. Onder. I understand that. You came here today. You know1740what the title is, and you said some complementary things about1741SPLC in your written testimony. In your opinion, is ADF a hate1742group?1743    Ms. Tyler. I wouldn't use that term.1744    Mr. Onder. Yes, I wouldn't either for an organization that1745argued 16 cases before the U.S. Supreme Court.1746    How about Turning Point USA, is Turning Point USA in your1747opinion a group?1748    Ms. Tyler. Again, I don't speak for SPLC. I don't--1749    Mr. Onder. I am asking for you and your organization.1750    Ms. Tyler. My organization, I am here for my organization.1751    Mr. Onder. Do you believe Turning Point USA is a hate1752group, Ms. Tyler?1753    Ms. Tyler. My organization doesn't label groups.1754    Mr. Onder. OK, good.1755    Ms. Tyler. I don't.1756    Mr. Onder. How about Family Research Council, is Family1757Research Council a hate group, Ms. Tyler?1758    Ms. Tyler. Same, same answer.1759    Mr. Onder. OK. Is Focus on the Family a hate group?1760    Ms. Tyler. Same answer.1761    Mr. Onder. How about Prager University?1762    Ms. Tyler. I don't. I don't have any of these labels for1763any of these organizations.1764    Mr. Onder. OK. You talk a lot in here about what1765constitutes a hate group, and a White supremacist organization.1766Is Center for Immigration Studies a White supremacist1767organization?1768    Ms. Tyler. I am not familiar with that organization.1769    Mr. Onder. No. How about Catholics who go to Latin Mass,1770are they a hate organization, are they haters by definition?1771    Ms. Tyler. No. I don't know what that is.1772    Mr. Onder. Yes, I wouldn't think so. In your written1773testimony you said BJC has a consistent record of supporting1774both the First Amendment's religion clauses, no establishment1775and free exercise.1776    A little bit later you said our commitment to religious1777freedom stems from the historical experience of early Baptists.1778    You said, further, the government targeting nonprofits1779should be of concern to all Americans. Has your organization or1780you personally condemned the Biden Administration's targeting1781of Catholics who attend Latin Mass as hate groups?1782    Ms. Tyler. I don't understand the question.1783    Mr. Onder. Oh. Well, the Biden Administration, as you may1784know, the Richmond Field Office targeted Latin Mass Catholics1785as a hate group. Their evidence for that was the Southern1786Poverty Law Center's suggestion that those Catholics were hate1787groups.1788    This is your wheelhouse here, right: Religious liberty--1789your testimony--government targeting of nonprofits. Have you or1790your organization condemned the SPLC and the Biden1791Administration for targeting Latin Mass Catholics?1792    Ms. Tyler. We speak consistently that religion should never1793be used as a proxy for threats.1794    Mr. Onder. OK, thank you. Mr. Perkins, you don't think your1795organization, Focus on--or Family Research Council is a hate1796group?1797    Mr. Perkins. No.1798    Mr. Onder. Or Turning Point USA, or ADF?1799    Mr. Perkins. No. None of those organizations. One of the1800things we all have in common: None of us advocate violence.1801    Mr. Onder. In any of these organization, your own, any of1802the others that I just listed, have they ever committed arson,1803destroyed a police station, targeted a police officer or ICE1804agent maybe even overturned a patrol car?1805    Mr. Perkins. No. We have been the target of violence.1806    Mr. Onder. Indeed you have. Indeed you have. How do you1807explain this list that SPLC has that Ms. Tyler refuses to1808answer. She doesn't have an opinion as to whether your1809organization is a hate group. How do you explain that list?1810    Mr. Perkins. Well, the difficulty is because it is not1811based on any type of action. It is based on ideology that1812Southern Poverty Law Center disagrees with.1813    Mr. Onder. Ah.1814    Mr. Perkins. Again, they have the freedom to speak and make1815lists. They could do it all day long.1816    It is when the government uses that list to marginalize1817citizens, you have taken a player and you have made them a1818referee.1819    Mr. Onder. Isn't that why we are here today?1820    Mr. Perkins. That is exactly why we are here.1821    Mr. Onder. Because the Biden Administration used SPLC's1822hate list, Hate Map to target, among others, I am sure, I am1823sure--1824    Mr. Perkins. Did the Obama Administration?1825    Mr. Onder. Did the Obama Administration? That is what we1826are talking about. The SPLC, in collusion with government,1827targeting--1828    Mr. Perkins. Yes, sir.1829    Mr. Onder. --religious groups and political groups with1830which the Biden regime and the Obama regime disagreed. Well,1831thank you for your testimony. Thank you to all the witnesses1832for being here today. Thank you, Mr. Chair.1833    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from Missouri. I now1834recognize the Ranking Member of the Committee for U.C. advice.1835    Mr. Raskin. Thank you very much. Just two things, Mr.1836Chair.1837    One is an article from April 18, 2024, The New York Times,1838``No bias found in FBI report on Catholic extremists.'' Also,1839Thomas Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists.1840    Mr. Roy. Without objection. I will now recognize the1841gentlelady from Vermont for five minutes.1842    Ms. Balint. Thank you so much, Mr. Chair.1843    We are here today because Republicans are uncomfortable1844that a nonprofit has labeled of their core organizations as1845hate groups. I would like to explore the facts and understand1846why the organizations sitting before us today, particularly,1847the Family Research Council, Mr. Perkins, may have been labeled1848a hate group by the SPLC.1849    The FRC was designated as an anti-LGBTQ hate group by SPLC1850in November 2010, for its dissemination of false and1851denigrating propaganda about gays and lesbians. The designation1852was based on FRC's pattern of spreading debunked claims linking1853homosexuality to pedophilia.1854    Mr. Perkins wrote that, ``while activists like to claim1855that pedophilia is a completely distinct orientation from1856homosexuality, evidence shows a disproportionate overlap1857between the two. It is a homosexual problem.''1858    Mr. Perkins also called the ``It Gets Better'' antibullying1859campaign, which is designed to save the lives of gay kids1860across this country who are being bullied mercilessly, he1861called it ``disgusting and part of a concerted effort to1862persuade kids that homosexuality is OK, and actually to recruit1863them into that lifestyle.''1864    I would like to say for the record, nobody recruited me. I1865would have loved to have had somebody actually talking to me1866about my experience.1867    Didn't happen. Doesn't happen. If that is not enough, we1868have documented connections that Mr. Perkins has appeared at1869organizations that have been supportive of White supremacist1870groups.1871    Look, the SPLC did not make up these designations out of1872thin air; we have the receipts. Just want to say that words1873matter. Accusations that an entire community is dangerous1874because of who they love makes LGBTQ Americans, who live in all1875our districts, every single district here, over nine percent of1876Americans identify as being part of the LGBTQ community. That1877makes all those people less safe. That's tens of millions of1878Americans. I am one of them.1879    As far as I know, I am the only one that I know of on this1880Committee that identifies. As I say, ``that I know of,''1881because the largest subsection of the LGBTQ community in this1882country is the bisexual subset of that organization. Again,1883that I know of.1884    I am curious, Mr. Perkins, are you familiar with the app1885Grindr?1886    Mr. Perkins. With what?1887    Ms. Balint. The app Grindr. Are you familiar with the app1888Grindr?1889    Mr. Perkins. No, I am not.1890    Ms. Balint. You are not. OK, well, I will just say it is a1891gay dating app. I brought it up today because I am so sick of1892the hypocrisy coming from the other side of the aisle.1893    Did you know the Grindr app crashed at the RNC Convention1894in Milwaukee? Do you know it crashed again near the Charlie1895Kirk Memorial?1896    This is no slight to all those people who were there1897grieving. I am just saying this is the reality. In your own1898ranks, in your own offices there are gay Americans who1899desperately want you to stand up for them.1900    It is so disheartening over and over again to come into1901this Committee and be told that somehow, I don't have a right1902to be here. That somehow, I am making Americans less safe just1903by existing when tens of millions of Americans just want to1904live their life and be left alone. They want to be left alone.1905They don't want to have their lives dragged once again in front1906of this Committee.1907    Now, I appreciate your time being here today, but I wish1908that you would put your energy and focus on actually protecting1909Americans and not scapegoating individuals who are just trying1910to live their lives.1911    Ms. Tyler, thank you so much for joining us here today. We1912don't have that much time. I needed to get that off my chest.1913    How does scapegoating groups like the LGBT community that I1914am a part of fit into the authoritarian playbook? Because that1915is what concerns me.1916    Ms. Tyler. Scapegoating groups or marginalizing them, using1917dehumanizing language, that all tries to make an example of one1918particular group. It starts often with groups that have the1919least power in society and then goes from there.1920    As Americans, we should be about protecting every person in1921this country and making sure that all their civil rights and1922liberties are fully protected.1923    Ms. Balint. That is right: We need to push back. I just1924want to say, Mr. Sypher, I believe it was you who said earlier1925that the majority of the country stands with you against same1926sex marriage.1927    The most recent Gallup Poll shows about 70 percent of this1928country supports same sex marriage. It has been holding steady1929at that number for quite a long time.1930    I yield back.1931    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady from Vermont. I will now1932recognize the gentleman from Wisconsin for up to five minutes.1933    Mr. Grothman. Thank you.1934    Mr. Roy. I will note that votes have been called. I am1935going to try to work out what the timetable is. To the extent1936that people want to speed things along, that may help us in our1937quest to finish before we have to go vote. I yield.1938    Mr. Grothman. I will comment again briefly. The Chair1939pointed out an article in Snopes, ``No, Trump did not call Neo-1940Nazis and White Supremacists very fine people.''1941    I would have thought that was so well known by now. The1942only reason people would say that is they knowingly lied. They1943should be called out for knowingly lying.1944    Second thing in general, we talk about hate speech or hate1945crimes. Well, I am not sure either should be sanctioned outside1946of the crime itself or outside of the speech itself.1947    Do any of the witnesses, we can start with you, Mr. O'Neil,1948should there be something of hate speech or a sanction against1949something called hate speech? Should there be crimes with a1950separate penalty that is a hate crime as opposed to a crime?1951    Mr. O'Neil. I am not here to testify on the specifics of1952hate crime law.1953    Mr. Grothman. Any of you guys have a comment?1954    Mr. Perkins. I believe we should focus on behavior and not1955ideology, and not beliefs.1956    Mr. Grothman. Nobody wants to answer the question, do you?1957    Mr. Sypher. More speech is a good thing.1958    Ms. Tyler. Hate speech is protected speech in the1959Constitution. Then, also speech that calls out hate speech must1960be protected.1961    Mr. Grothman. At least you got the most conservative1962answer, I guess. OK, Mr. O'Neil, why was SPLC founder Morris1963Dees fired in 2017?1964    Mr. O'Neil. Yes, it is an interesting thing to bring that1965up. It was 2019.1966    This is something our friends on the other side of the1967aisle seem not to remember. I think Mr. Cohen praised Morris1968Dees. Morris Dees had longstanding accusations of racial1969discrimination and sexual harassment.1970    It was in the context of that scandal that he was fired,1971that Richard Cohen, the long-term president of the Southern1972Poverty Law Center resigned, and that the Southern Poverty Law1973Center began the process of unionization which led to1974accusations of union busting last year and the ouster of their1975most recent president Margaret Huang.1976    Mr. Grothman. OK. It is accurate to say that I guess you1977can describe Southern Poverty Law Center about five years ago1978as just a big moneymaking racket. Is that true?1979    Mr. O'Neil. I would continue to describe it that way. It1980does do a few other things besides falsely defame conservatives1981and raise money by doing so, but that is the main proposition,1982value-add if you talk to donors.1983    Mr. Grothman. With their endowment of $700 million; right?1984    Mr. O'Neil. What?1985    Mr. Grothman. Their endowment is about $700 million?1986    Mr. O'Neil. Yes, $786 million.1987    Mr. Grothman. OK. Given the public record of retractions,1988settlements, and criticisms of Southern Poverty Law Center1989methodology, why do you believe so many--this is a really good1990one--why do you believe so many national news organizations1991rely on SPLC, given the blizzard of legal, I guess you call1992them malfeasance they have been involved in?1993    Mr. O'Neil. It is a useful political weapon, not just for1994the legacy media but also for our friends on the other side of1995the aisle. It is also a useful weapon for Ms. Tyler here.1996    It was very interesting to me to hear her not stand by some1997of the accusations that Alliance Defending Freedom, and Family1998Research Council, and groups like that are hate groups, despite1999the fact that she is constantly using Christian Nationalism to2000demonize conservative positions.2001    Mr. Grothman. OK. I tell you what, we are running out of2002time. Why don't I, we will give it back to you, Mr. Chair. You2003can take the two-minutes.2004    Mr. Roy. I will do that, I will yield the time if the2005gentleman is fine yielding time. I will recognize the2006gentlelady from California.2007    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will get right2008into it.2009    Ms. Tyler, historically the U.S. Government has not2010targeted conservative groups, it has targeted civil rights2011organizations like the NAACP, like Dr. King, like the Black2012Panthers, often labeling them as extremist or dangerous to2013justify surveilling them.2014    Mr. Roy. Would the gentlelady pause for one second? I2015apologize for interrupting her. I will make up the time.2016    Can I ask the witnesses really quick, we are trying to2017figure out. The vote has been called on the floor.2018    We either are going to have to suspend and come back around20195:00-ish to finish another 20-ish minutes of questions or we2020are going to have to somehow truncate it.2021    Are the witnesses able to stay and finish out at 5:00 p.m.2022for 30 minutes, if that is what we are going to have to do?2023Yes. OK. The gentlelady can proceed with her questions until we2024are done.2025    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. OK. Labeling them as extremists or2026dangerous to justify surveilling and silencing them.2027    Ms. Tyler, how does today's rhetoric accusing civil society2028organizations of weaponization echo those past Government2029abuses used to silence or intimidate civil rights movements?2030    Ms. Tyler. Yes, I definitely see some historical analogues2031to what you are speaking of. What we are seeing now is even2032more extreme because we see it with this Congressional hearing,2033but also with actions from the administration that seek to,2034again, with a very wide swath call out anything that falls into2035their view of being anti-Christianity or anticapitalism, for2036instance, or taking what they view to be extreme positions on2037gender or immigration, that those could be singled out as2038domestic terrorist organizations with the full freight of the2039government behind it to prosecute them in some way.2040    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Yes. In fact, Mr. O'Neil said a lot of2041things, but he did say that SPLC does a few other things. I2042want to talk about some of the few other things that they do,2043the great work.2044    They have a continuous history of exposing anti-Black2045violence and White supremacist movements while defending the2046rights of those targeted by discrimination. In 2024, for2047example, the SPLC protected the voting rights of more than20483,000 Georgia voters after Cobb County failed to send absentee2049ballots on time.2050    In Alabama they organized an unlawful voter purge that2051would have stripped more than 3,200 naturalized citizens of2052their right to vote.2053    Ms. Tyler, how do watchdog organizations that track2054extremism help to safeguard communities, especially those that2055have been historically targeted by hate groups?2056    Ms. Tyler. Civil rights organizations like SPLC draws2057awareness to hate groups and helps to warn communities ahead of2058time when there might be violent action.2059    It is important to civil society, including civil rights2060organizations play a vital role in the overall fabric of2061American society. We need to have strong public-private2062partnerships to keep all Americans safe.2063    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Absolutely. I have a few other questions2064for you. Would you say that the Cato Institute is like a Left-2065wing ANTIFA-allied organization? Would you categorize Cato as2066that?2067    Ms. Tyler. I would not.2068    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. OK. I wouldn't either. They are2069libertarian at best.2070    Even the Cato Institute, I believe, released a report2071saying that since 1975 people motivated by hard-right2072ideologies have been responsible for 63 percent of politically2073motivated murder. How does that sound? Have you heard of that2074report?2075    Ms. Tyler. I have not.2076    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. OK.2077    Ms. Tyler. I don't--it--2078    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. We are going to trust Cato today. How2079about that? Even I am going to say that.2080    There was a killing of a representative from Minnesota, Ms.2081Hortman, who was killed alongside her husband and her dog. The2082police recovered many items of the person responsible for2083killing them. Maybe you have heard. Have you heard if they had2084also recovered materials that this person had belonging to SPLC2085or other Left-wing, Left-leaning organizations?2086    Ms. Tyler. I have not heard that.2087    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. No, I haven't either. What I have heard2088is that the person was motivated by the false but racist Great2089Replacement Theory, conspiracy theory. In fact, had a list2090targeting other Democrats and wanting to go after them. In2091fact, it was a list of 70 targets. Doesn't seem to me that was2092a person that was connected to, motivated by ANTIFA.2093    In fact, Ms. Tyler, I don't know if you know this, but the2094FBI actually took down, right, stopped working with both the2095SPLC and also the Anti-Defamation League. Did you know that?2096    Ms. Tyler. I learned that earlier in this hearing.2097    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. What do you think about that?2098    Ms. Tyler. Well, that it is vital that our Government meet2099with a broad variety of organizations, especially those that2100are concentrating on rooting out White supremacy and anti-2101Semitism, to make all our communities safer.2102    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. Well, I would think. I am going to enter2103into the record, Mr. Chair, because I know we are out of time.2104    Mr. Roy. Yep.2105    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. ``The Destruction of DOJ's Civil Rights2106Division: Why it Matters.''2107    Mr. Roy. Without objection.2108    Ms. Kamlager-Dove. I will yield back.2109    Mr. Roy. The gentlelady from California. I will recognize2110the gentleman from Texas for a few minutes.2111    Mr. Gill. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this2112hearing and thank you to the witnesses for taking the time to2113be here and very eloquently explaining your position.2114    Ms. Tyler, I want to start with you. You have written2115pretty extensively about what you call White supremacy and2116Christian Nationalism. Is that correct?2117    Ms. Tyler. Yes. Most specifically Christian Nationalism.2118    Mr. Gill. Got it. Do you believe that White Christians are2119a problem?2120    Ms. Tyler. No.2121    Mr. Gill. You have written that--I have got an interview2122here, the transcript from an interview you gave in November2123last year with the Interfaith Alliance where you wrote, quote,2124or you stated, ``White Christians have been more a part of the2125problem than a solution.'' That was in relation to your views2126on Christian Nationalism. Do you remember that?2127    Ms. Tyler. Yes. I am including myself; right? I am2128including, I am a White Christian, and I am saying that White2129Christians because--2130    Mr. Gill. That is because of views on Christian2131Nationalism; is that right?2132    Ms. Tyler. Yes, so.2133    Mr. Gill. OK. Did you know that 34 percent of Black2134Americans support ``Christian Nationalism?'' That number is 302135percent for White Americans?2136    Ms. Tyler. That Christian Nationalism is an ideology that2137every racial group, every religious group embraces or rejects2138to different extents.2139    Mr. Gill. Do you think that Black Christians are also a2140problem?2141    Ms. Tyler. I said no. When you asked me if White2142Christians--2143    Mr. Gill. You stated in this interview. I have the2144transcript here.2145    Ms. Tyler. Yes.2146    Mr. Gill. You stated in this interview that White2147Christians are a problem. I am asking you if you have the same2148view about Black Christians.2149    Ms. Tyler. White Christians have done more than other2150groups to perpetuate White Christian Nationalism. I include2151myself in that category.2152    Mr. Gill. Black Christians support Christian Nationalism at2153higher rates than White Christians, per the statistics that I2154just read.2155    Ms. Tyler. Christian Nationalism is an ideology that all2156different groups can reject.2157    Mr. Gill. Got it.2158    Ms. Tyler. That is one social--2159    Mr. Gill. I got it. No, no, no, my understanding is that2160the categorical, the categorical condemnation only applies to2161White Christians and not to Black Christians, that seems to be2162your testimony. Appreciate it.2163    Ms. Tyler. Most of my work is working with White2164Christians--2165    Mr. Gill. We have got limited; we have got limited time. I2166asked you about those. We have got limited time, so I want to2167move on here. I just wanted to clear that up, to make that very2168clear for everybody listening. Mr. Sypher, I want to thank you2169for being here. Has Turning Point USA ever advocated violence2170against innocent groups?2171    Mr. Sypher. More speech is a good thing.2172    Ms. Tyler. Hate speech is protected speech in the2173Constitution. Then, also speech that calls out hate speech must2174be protected.2175    Mr. Gill. At least you got the most conservative answers, I2176guess.2177    Mr. Sypher. Never.2178    Mr. Gill. Have they ever harbored, as an institution2179harbored racial animus against any group?2180    Mr. Sypher. No. In fact, it is quite the opposite. Charlie2181would always say, disagreements come to the front. He wanted to2182talk with those that disagreed. He didn't want to talk to an2183echo chamber like we find so many places here in D.C.2184    Mr. Gill. Mr. Perkins, has Family Research Council ever2185advocated violence against any other group?2186    Mr. Perkins. No.2187    Mr. Gill. Have they ever advocated racial animus or any2188other type of animus against any other group?2189    Mr. Perkins. No. To the opposite.2190    Mr. Gill. Got it. Mr. O'Neil, I will end with you because2191we are trying to go quickly here. Why do you think that the2192SPLC labels or has labeled TP USA and the Family Research2193Council as hate groups?2194    Mr. O'Neil. They are effective organizations on the2195opposite of the SPLC on various political and ideological2196issues.2197    Mr. Gill. Awesome. Thank you. Since we are out of time due2198to the votes, I will yield back, Mr. Chair.2199    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentleman from Texas for his2200indulgence. I will now recognize the Ranking Member for as much2201time as she needs, up to five minutes.2202    Ms. Scanlon. OK, thank you. I do think this has been a2203fascinating hearing in which there has been a number of attacks2204on a nonprofit rights organization which was not called to2205testify in its own defense. Certainly, we have heard a lot of2206pretty far-reaching and, apparently, inaccurate statements2207about that.2208    Ms. Tyler, I do appreciate the perspective you bring about2209the importance of our First Amendment, particularly with2210respect to the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise2211Clause.2212    The district that I represent in Pennsylvania is the site2213where William Penn first landed to establish a community based2214on tolerance, especially for Quakers who were fleeing--a2215Christian group who were fleeing persecution in their homeland.2216    You have been asked a number of questions and you have2217referenced in your testimony doing work as Christians against2218Christian Nationalism.2219    Why is that important?2220    Ms. Tyler. I approach this both as a faithful Christian and2221patriotic American.2222    Ms. Scanlon. Uh-huh.2223    Ms. Tyler. As a Christian I view Christian Nationalism as a2224form of idolatry. It causes us to confuse political and2225religious authority and to potentially worship government over2226God.2227    I also see it as a gross distortion of the teachings of2228Jesus. Jesus who was all about love. That it turns the Gospel2229of Jesus into a false idol of power. As a Christian, I feel a2230calling to call out Christian Nationalism.2231    As a patriotic American I view it as a way that we are not2232being true to our constitutional values of religious freedom2233for all people.2234    As stated in the First Amendment, that people, regardless2235of religious identity, should all be equal in this country.2236That Christian Nationalism betrays that constitutional promise.2237    Ms. Scanlon. Thank you. I appreciate that. Because we have2238certainly over the course of this hearing heard a variety of2239opinions on things such as which form of Christianity is the2240right one or the one that we should be adhering to. We have2241certainly heard about it with respect to the abortion question.2242There is a variety of opinions on that issue among Christian2243and other sects.2244    We have seen it increasingly with respect to this2245Administration's immigration policies, that there is a wide2246variety of policies. As you suggested, with a loving God who2247counsels respect for the dignity of all people, we have seen2248some pretty strong statements from our Catholic hierarchy as2249well.2250    I do want to enter into the record several I offer for2251unanimous consent.2252    First, the December 15th letter to myself and Chair Roy2253from the Leadership Conference condemning this hearing.2254    Second, a December 16th letter from the Congressional Black2255Caucus expressing great concern about today's hearing targeting2256the Southern Poverty Law Center.2257    Third, an open letter from 3,000 coalition--a coalition of22583,000 nonprofit and nonpartisan organizations rejecting2259Presidential attacks on nonprofit organizations.2260    Fourth, a December 15, 2025, letter from the National2261Council of Nonprofits sharing their concern about the2262Subcommittee's hearing today.2263    Mr. Roy. Without objection.2264    Ms. Scanlon. OK. I would yield back.2265    Mr. Roy. I thank the gentlelady. I thank the gentlelady for2266limiting her time. I appreciate the witnesses' patience for2267coming here. We were a little late starting. I am only going to2268use about a minute here to wrap up with my normal questioning.2269    I think that a lot of the things that we wanted to2270illuminate have been illuminated. The only thing that I want to2271just finish here with is, and specifically for you, Mr. Sypher,2272given the circumstances of what occurred this year in2273September.2274    Is it your considered judgment, and the considered judgment2275of people that you associate with at TP USA that the focus by2276not just the Southern Poverty Law Center but by those that are2277trying to designate people for expressing free speech views and2278expressing their views on biblical principles or other2279principles that people find objectionable, that labeling that2280as hate, and specifically SPLC, do you believe that that2281created an environment that led to the attack on Charlie?2282    Mr. Sypher. Most definitely. I find it ironic that a civil2283rights organization is marginalizing over half the country in2284their viewpoints.2285    On college campuses what you see is when people celebrate2286violence, as we saw post-assassination, it shows the sad state2287of this country. It means that communication and dialog is2288dying.2289    Charlie fought against that. That is why so many people2290craved coming to his ``Prove Me Wrongs.'' That is why they2291craved to see him work through those thoughts with disagreers.2292Because people need to talk for violence to be done away with.2293    Mr. Roy. Mr. Perkins, you stated earlier that it was your2294belief that the purpose of this hearing, as I share, was to2295focus on the extent to which not just the SPLC but generally2296when the government is then utilizing these organizations2297effectively as a tool to carry out its objectives, that that is2298now a different world. That is not just talking about speech,2299that has an oversight function for us to understand how that2300labeling has been having an effect on our legal system, on2301civil rights in general.2302    Is that correct?2303    Mr. Perkins. It is correct. To Mr. Sypher's point, as the2304government elevates that voice and legitimizes that voice, the2305media takes it and runs with it.2306    The dialog that we had in this city and in this Nation 15,230720 years ago has ceased. It does lead to violence. The best way2308to stop violence is to have conversations and to allow people2309of differing views to speak, even when you disagree with them.2310That is what a healthy nation does.2311    The Southern Poverty Law Center is about silencing, not2312facilitating.2313    Mr. Roy. I thank you, Mr. Perkins.2314    Out of respect for my colleagues that shortened their time,2315I am going to do the same.2316    I appreciate the witnesses.2317    That concludes today's hearing. We thank the witnesses for2318appearing before the Subcommittee today.2319    Without objection, all the members will have five2320legislative days to submit additional written questions for the2321witnesses, or additional materials for the record.2322    Mr. Roy. Without objection, the hearing is adjourned.2323    [Whereupon, at 4:38 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.]23242325    All materials submitted for the record by Members of the2326Subcommittee on the Constitution and Limited Government can2327be found at: https://docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent2328.aspx?EventID=118758.23292330                                 [all]