Oversight: Path of Purpose: Restoring the VA VR&E Program to Effectively Serve Veterans

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                       PATH OF PURPOSE: RESTORING5                         THE VA VR&E PROGRAM TO6                       EFFECTIVELY SERVE VETERANS7=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                               BEFORE THE1213                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY1415                                 OF THE1617                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS1819                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES2021                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2223                             FIRST SESSION2425                               __________2627                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 20252829                               __________3031                           Serial No. 119-313233                               __________3435       Printed for the use of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs3637[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3839                    Available via http://govinfo.gov4041                               __________4243                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4461-358                     WASHINGTON : 20254546-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4748                     COMMITTEE ON VETERANS' AFFAIRS4950                     MIKE BOST, Illinois, Chairman5152AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       MARK TAKANO, California, Ranking53    American Samoa, Vice-Chairwoman      Member54JACK BERGMAN, Michigan               JULIA BROWNLEY, California55NANCY MACE, South Carolina           CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire56MARIANNETTE MILLER-MEEKS, Iowa       SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,57GREGORY F. MURPHY, North Carolina        Florida58DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin         MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky59MORGAN LUTTRELL, Texas               DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois60JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              NIKKI BUDZINSKI, Illinois61KEITH SELF, Texas                    TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York62JEN KIGGANS, Virginia                MAXINE DEXTER, Oregon63ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                 HERB CONAWAY, New Jersey64KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       KELLY MORRISON, Minnesota65    Mariana Islands66TOM BARRETT, Michigan6768                       Jon Clark, Staff Director69                  Matt Reel, Democratic Staff Director7071                  SUBCOMMITTEE ON ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY7273                 DERRICK VAN ORDEN, Wisconsin, Chairman7475JUAN CISCOMANI, Arizona              CHRIS PAPPAS, New Hampshire,76ABE HAMADEH, Arizona                     Ranking Member77KIMBERLYN KING-HINDS, Northern       MORGAN MCGARVEY, Kentucky78    Mariana Islands                  DELIA RAMIREZ, Illinois79TOM BARRETT, Michigan                TIMOTHY M. KENNEDY, New York8081Pursuant to clause 2(e)(4) of Rule XI of the Rules of the House, public82hearing records of the Committee on Veterans' Affairs are also83published in electronic form. The printed hearing record remains the84official version. Because electronic submissions are used to prepare85both printed and electronic versions of the hearing record, the process86of converting between various electronic formats may introduce87unintentional errors or omissions. Such occurrences are inherent in the88current publication process and should diminish as the process is89further refined.9091                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S9293                              ----------9495                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 20259697                                                                   Page9899                           OPENING STATEMENTS100101The Honorable Derrick Van Orden, Chairman........................     1102The Honorable Chris Pappas, Ranking Member.......................     3103104                               WITNESSES105                                Panel I106107Ms. Margarita Devlin, Acting Principal Deputy Under Secretary for108  Benefits, Veterans Benefits Administration, U.S. Department of109  Veterans Affairs...............................................     5110111                                APPENDIX112                    Prepared Statements Of Witnesses113114Ms. Margarita Devlin Prepared Statement..........................    23115116                       Statements For The Record117118U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of the Inspector119  General Prepared Statement.....................................    29120Veterans Education Success Prepared Statement....................    37121122                       PATH OF PURPOSE: RESTORING123                         THE VA VR&E PROGRAM TO124                       EFFECTIVELY SERVE VETERANS125126                              ----------127128                        WEDNESDAY, JULY 16, 2025129130      Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity,131                    Committee on Veterans' Affairs,132                             U.S. House of Representatives,133                                                    Washington, DC.134    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 2:31 p.m., in135room 360, Cannon House Office Building, Hon. Derrick Van Orden136(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.137    Present: Representatives Van Orden, Ciscomani, Barrett,138Pappas, and McGarvey.139140        OPENING STATEMENT OF DERRICK VAN ORDEN, CHAIRMAN141142    Mr. Van Orden. The subcommittee will come to order. I want143to thank everyone for being here today to discuss the Veterans144Readiness and Employment Program, or VR&E.145    The purpose of this program is to assist veterans and146servicemembers who have service-connected disabilities with on-147the-job training, education, and skills they need in order to148obtain meaningful employment to live full independent lives.149When this program is appropriately administered, VR&E, it is150more than just a benefits program. It is also a vital first151step for disabled veterans to become more financially152independent and give back to their community and achieve their153own American Dream. I used VR&E to go to law school at the age154of 50 and it led me to Congress, so maybe we should cancel this155program. That is a joke. Seriously, this job, right? Yes, he156got it. He is the only guy that got it.157    Unfortunately, VR&E has been at a crossroads for several158years and, unfortunately, it has been abused by a lot of folks.159I am very thankful that over this last year our team has been160able to investigate some of these potential fraud, waste, and161abuse cases. It includes site visits to Detroit, Muskogee,162Buffalo, Baltimore, and just last week the folks got back from163San Diego. What they found is truly disturbing.164    We are now seeing unprecedented increase in wait times and165an increased burden on counselors with higher caseloads. There166has got to be a better balance of priorities in the program to167make sure that veterans get what they need while also ensuring168that the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) is a169responsible steward of the taxpayers' investment. I found that170this is a responsibility that VA has a profound and constant171inability to perform the oversight function. I am also going to172point the finger this way. We have an oversight responsibility,173you have an oversight responsibility, and I think both sides of174this fence have not been meeting that.175    Finally, my staff has also seen some data that veterans176have been in this program for over 20 years. Many veterans are177using more than $250,000 in benefit payments, and one veteran178in Boston spent over $350,000 in 18 months. Another veteran in179Los Angeles has spent $895,000 in 6 years and is still in180rehab-to-employment phase of the program. If anyone is181concerned about funding for veterans, they need to be concerned182about what is going on in this program, also. Cases like this183are a direct result of VA granting entitlement extensions past184the 48-month limit mandated by law for VR&E recipients; well185over 99 percent of the time are not doing their due diligence186on the program.187    In fact, the VA Committee last month found out that since188Fiscal Year 2024, 62,355 extensions were approved while just 59189requests for extensions were denied. That is statistically190impossible for that to be a functioning number. It is just191absurd.192    I am looking forward to hearing from the VA about the real-193life examples that constitute granting a waiver. On paper,194bureaucrats may just be completing a checking the box exercise195instead of completing a thorough review.196    Additionally, we heard numerous concerns about long wait197times. The current wait time for a veteran to be seen by a198counselor in San Diego, Oakland, and Albuquerque is over 100199days. 40 percent of regional offices take over 60 days for a200veteran to meet a counselor for an initial evaluation, above201the VA goal of a 60-day maximum wait time. A month is too long.202Making a veteran put their lives on hold for nearly a year203before even being seen by a counselor is ridiculous and has a204negative impact on not only their lives, but their entire205families.206    Finally, we found that 45 percent of participants within207the VR&E program have successfully completed the program and208subsequently re-entered it. That means that nearly half of the209VR&E participants complete a program successfully only to210return to the program. I understand the need for the veteran211whose disability worsens or reenters the program with the goal212of becoming gainfully employed again. However, 45 percent of213individuals using a jobs program more than once is a failure,214and this will not stand on my watch any longer.215    We have also heard from VR&E executive director himself216that many veterans are retiring from their jobs and applying217for VR&E to receive a substance allowance to supplement their218income until they are able to receive retirement benefits and219Social Security. In essence, some people are retiring from a220job and then entering this program for a period of time to221carry them into the age when they are eligible for Social222Security. That is not what this program was designed for.223    VA knows that there is abuse in this program yet again I224hear--until I hear otherwise, VA is not working to fix the225holes in the system, period. We cannot ignore this because we226cannot let this program fail.227    Finally, I recognize VR&E's latest Information Technology228(IT) project of Readiness Employment System, or RES, was229launched as a pilot in 2024, and early reports showed that the230program has been received very well. I know the VA states they231are finally on the right path with the new case management232system. However, I am skeptical as this undertaking will now233span a term of four administrations and we all know how good234the VA is at wasting taxpayers' dollars for IT failures. As a235matter of fact, they have a 0 percent rate of getting IT236projects right.237    Ms. Devlin, I got to tell you, I know you just got here. We238met the other day in our office and, as discussed, this is how239I want this hearing to go. This is going to be a post-apartheid240Truth and Reconciliation Commission, meaning, you know, we are241not going to hold you to account. I know you just got here a242month ago and I want to make sure that this is an open kimono243discussion so that we can clearly identify, articulate, and244brainstorm about how to fix these problems. Is that clear?245    Ms. Devlin. Yes, got it.246    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. With that, I would like to now yield247to my very good friend and ranking member, Mr. Pappas, for his248opening remarks.249250       OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRIS PAPPAS, RANKING MEMBER251252    Mr. Pappas. Thank you very much, Chairman Van Orden, for253holding today's hearing on the Veterans Readiness and254Employment Program, otherwise known as VR&E.255    We know VR&E is designed to help disabled veterans gain256meaningful employment and independent living after their time257in service. However, this committee is rightfully concerned258about the overall outcomes and effectiveness of the program259based on data about its performance and issues veterans have260raised about response and wait times, among others. I hope to261learn more today about the ways in which we can improve the262program so that service-connected disabled veterans are263receiving the support they need and have earned and ensure that264their transition to civilian life is a successful.265    One area that I would like to focus on is the caseload266ratios for counselors, which, since 2018, VA established should267be at 125 veterans per 1 counselor. Since the passage of the268The Sergeant First Class Heath Robinson Honoring our Promise to269Address Comprehensive Toxics (PACT) Act, however, caseloads270exceed this ratio nationwide and in some areas the ratio is271currently 204-to-1.272    Additionally, in many regional offices a veteran waits on273average a month or more to meet with a counselor, with Boston274experiencing an average wait time of 33 days, Phoenix 68 days,275Atlanta 77 days, and San Diego 159 days. This means that276veterans are waiting longer, counselors are being strained, and277veterans are not receiving the best quality of services, and we278need to fix that.279    While improvements can be made to the program overall, the280solution to truly ensuring veterans are accessing and able to281make the most of the VR&E program comes down to one critical282factor: staffing. For example, VA recently brought down the283wait times in Southern California, brought them down284dramatically, and the solution was more staff to lessen285workload per counselor, process veteran information faster, and286give veterans specialized attention and resources that they287require.288    I am also aware that VA is in the process of modernizing289its case management system and implementing the use of290Artificial Intelligence (AI) tools, such as the electronic291virtual assistant to help schedule appointments with292counselors. While these initiatives surely will help make293casework more efficient, it is highly unlikely that this will294be enough to help VA keep up with the expected increase in295caseloads, as VA itself has forecasted.296    We also cannot expect VA to improve its performance in the297already understaffed program, with VA's recent announcement298projecting an expected loss of 30,000 employees by the end of299this year. We also acknowledge that VA counselors in general300have a high turnover rate, but that is mostly because their301caseloads have become unmanageable.302    I share the chairman's concerns about veterans staying in303the VR&E program for a long period of time, but I do not304necessarily agree that instituting time limits is the correct305course of legislative action. VR&E counselors do need306flexibility in determining individual veterans' situations and307circumstances rather than putting additional administrative308burdens on them to prove why a veteran needs more time.309Addressing the retention of counselors and getting their310caseload down to VA's recommended ratio of 125-to-1 is a better311use of our time.312    VA data shows that regional offices that are adequately313staffed are performing well, both in terms of maintaining314manageable caseload and number of days for veterans to have315their initial meeting with a counselor. Unfortunately, only 28316percent of regional offices are at or below the targeted317caseload, with the national ratio currently at 175 cases per318counselor. There is significant room for improvement there. I319hope that this committee agrees that this is a problem that320needs to be addressed.321    The services a veteran receives should not be dependent on322where a veteran chooses to live after military life, nor should323it depend on VA's plans to cut staffing that will undermine324critical programs like VR&E that veterans rely on after having325served their country. Leaving veterans to their own devices326upon leaving the service or critically undermining the VR&E327program effectiveness would be a terrible disservice to328veterans and their families and, in the end, will only hurt329veterans trying to secure the help that they deserve.330    I thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing, and I331yield back.332    Mr. Van Orden. The ranking member yields back. Thank you,333Mr. Pappas.334    I will now introduce our witness panel. It is you. Ms.335Margarita Devlin, acting principal deputy under secretary for336Benefits at the Department of Veterans Affairs. Will you please337stand and raise your right hand, ma'am?338    [Witness sworn.]339    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you. Let the record reflect that the340witness answered in the affirmative.341    Ms. Devlin, you are now recognized for 5 minutes to deliver342your testimony on behalf of the Department of Veterans Affairs.343344                 STATEMENT OF MARGARITA DEVLIN345346    Ms. Devlin. Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas,347thank you for this opportunity to testify on the Veteran348Readiness and Employment Program.349    I have had the privilege of seeing personally the350transformational effect that this program can have on veterans351lives, both when I started as a voc rehab counselor myself in352the field, through various leadership positions in the field353,and at national headquarters in Veterans Benefits354Administration (VBA). At every level, I witnessed how important355this program can be to their career goals or their independent356living goals.357    During the first Trump administration, I served as the358principal deputy undersecretary for Benefits, and at that time359we worked diligently to get to the 1-to-125 ratio, so it was360disheartening to see that that has unraveled. VR&E's workload361has dramatically increased. In recent years, from October 2020362to June 2025, the caseload grew by 52.3 percent, and that sharp363increase was largely driven by an increase in the eligible364veteran population due to the PACT Act. Staffing allowances in365the past few years hypothetically allowed VR&E to hire 1366counselor for every 140 veterans. However, this is in sharp367contrast with VR&E's actual caseload ratio, as you mentioned,368of 1-to-175 when factoring in the current caseload and the369onboard number of counselors.370    Despite these challenges, VBA has made meaningful progress371in the past couple of months. We have worked to accelerate372eligibility determinations to make sure veterans are getting373the timely support that they deserve, and we have increased374oversight over the program. VBA leadership at all levels are375being held accountable for the performance of this program so376that veterans receive the care and benefits that they deserve.377    VBA is addressing the increased workload in several ways.378We deployed a help team to reduce pending applications at379several stations to help expedite entitlement determinations.380We implemented a national workload assignment strategy where381VBA assigns workload from offices with the highest caseload382ratios to stations with lower caseload ratios. This national383approach is supported by the fact that many veterans prefer the384flexibility of a virtual appointment through telecounseling385versus coming into a brick-and-mortar appointment. This helps386us balance some of the workload demands across the available387capacity. We also provided additional contract counselor388support to help some stations with higher workloads.389    We have seen a huge difference across the Nation from the390cumulative effects of these workload management strategies. For391example, in one regional office we reduced the average days392pending in applicant status from over 200 days in January to an393average of 39 days as of the end of June. Veterans are seeing394success through the program. As of the end of June, over 14,000395veterans achieved positive outcomes through the VR&E program so396far this year, which is 10 percent more than this time last397year.398    Employment is tracked as a subset of all positive outcomes.399An employment outcome is when a veteran finishes their training400and gains suitable employment. As of the end of June, over4017,000 veterans achieved successful employment outcomes through402VR&E, which is 15 percent above VR&E's stated goal for this403point in the year.404    VBA has successfully deployed the Readiness and Employment405System, or RES, to all regional offices in the Southeast and406Northeast districts, and we are on track to deploy the407Continental and Pacific districts by the end of September. RES408has already shown measurable results. RES application409automation improved processing time from 7 days down to 3.4410days in the pilot and currently is at 2.3 average days for an411eligibility determination. This does not only expedite that412decision-making, but gets veterans quicker to a counselor for413their first appointment.414    In conclusion, the VA is fully committed to making the415improvements necessary to strengthen the VR&E program. At the416heart of all this is one goal: ensuring that veterans get the417support that they need when they need it without lengthy wait418times. My commitment is simple. I want to restore your trust in419the VR&E program. More importantly, I want to make sure420veterans and transitioning servicemembers understand this421program is here for them and that they can trust that the422program will take care of them. We have a lot more work to do423and we are determined to get it right.424    Mr. Chairman, this concludes my statement and I welcome any425questions you and the ranking member and any other committee426members have for me.427428    [The Prepared Statement Of Margarita Devlin Appears In The429Appendix]430431    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ms. Devlin. The written statement432of Ms. Devlin will be entering into the record.433    We are going to proceed to question you now. Everyone is434going to stick to the 5-minute rule.435    I now recognize Ranking Member Pappas for 5 minutes for436questions.437    Mr. Pappas. Well, thank you, Ms. Devlin for joining us. I438appreciate you being here and I appreciate you also relating439your experience as a voc rehab counselor. That is all valuable440perspective, but I also notice that the executive director of441the program, the one program that we are discussing today, is442not at this hearing.443    Mr. Pamperin led the program during record-setting444enrollment during the PACT Act, the development of the RES445scheduling system. In fact, the reason I think we are holding446this hearing is because the chairman and Mr. Pamperin had a447back-and-forth line of questioning at a hearing a few weeks448ago. I am wondering if you can answer the question why Mr.449Pamperin is not at this hearing today.450    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. Thank you for that question.451    Mr. Pamperin is in charge of the VR&E service program, but452as I am currently performing the delegable duties of the under453secretary for Benefits, I am also responsible not only for the454VR&E program, but for the Office of Field Operations. VR&E455service controls the policymaking, the quality assurance, and456many other functions in VR&E, but it is field operations that457we are typically talking about that we have concerns with. It458is the staffing in the field. It is the counselors doing the459work on the ground.460    The VR&E program leaders are just one group of leaders that461are responsible for implementing the program. We are also462talking about VA regional office directors and district463directors. Those people do not report to Mr. Pamperin. They464report to me.465    Mr. Pappas. Well, I do not doubt your oversight and your466involvement in the program, but he is the named executive467director of the program. There are four additional seats at468that table and one of them should have been filled by him.469    I am wondering if we can get into the detail of some of470your testimony and talk about the extended enrollment times471that we have seen. The chairman has brought to this committee's472attention a few cases in which veterans have been in VR&E for473far longer than the policy ever intended. Can you help us474understand why there are times that veterans might need to stay475in the program longer than just the average time?476    Ms. Devlin. Yes, there are many reasons that a veteran477might be in a program for a long time. Sometimes it is because478they are in and out of the program. Maybe they began their479program and life circumstances took over. It could be a480worsening of their disability conditions. It could be some481other life circumstances. It could be a geographic relocation.482It could be an accident. It could be a family emergency. It483could be a whole host of reasons that could interrupt that484veteran's program and then they can return when those issues485are resolved.486    You know, I have seen a case, just a veteran who was487rehabilitated just July 8th, and that veteran was in the488program for a few years, had to take time off because of489disability conditions, and then came back years later and was490able to finish, graduate the program in May--sorry, get a job491in May as a human resources manager, and is successfully492rehabilitated. You might look at that on the surface and say,493well, why was that veteran in the program so long? They needed494to take the time off for those medical conditions to restore495their health.496    Mr. Pappas. Well, thanks. Are veterans paid by VA for the497entire time period that they are in the program?498    Ms. Devlin. Veterans receive subsistence allowance only for499the time that they are actively pursuing training.500    Mr. Pappas. Okay. Is there an average number of months that501benefits are paid out?502    Ms. Devlin. Veterans are typically entitled to up to 48503months of entitlement for payment of subsistence unless an504extension is granted.505    Mr. Pappas. Okay. Are there just the most common reason why506a veteran might exceed that 48-month timeframe?507    Ms. Devlin. Typically it is because they have what we call508a serious employment handicap, which means they have509significant barriers to employability above an employment510handicap that requires them to have additional months of511training that they might need to become employable----512    Mr. Pappas. Okay.513    Ms. Devlin [continuing]. and compete with other people for514that same occupation.515    Mr. Pappas. When a veteran enrolls in VR&E, what is the516process and how are counselors assigned to that veteran?517    Ms. Devlin. Counselors are typically assigned based on518geography, where the veteran applies. As I indicated earlier,519however, because of our capacity issues, we have assigned520veteran applicants to counselors that have availability so that521they do not have to wait. Those counselors would meet with that522veteran either virtually or in person, depending on the523circumstances, to determine their entitlement and review524whether they--what type of rehabilitation program they might525need.526    Mr. Pappas. We do hear complaints from veterans sometimes527about the difficulty in getting in contact with their528counselor. If a veteran moves to a college in a different529location, do they keep the same counselor or are they assigned530a new one?531    Ms. Devlin. It depends on the changes and the capacity of532the VR&E office. If a veteran is having a hard time reaching533their counselor and they have left a voicemail message and not534gotten a return call, I would encourage them to call our main535number because we can warm transfer them to the VR&E office and536see if somebody else in that office can make sure that they get537taken care of.538    Mr. Pappas. Okay. My time is limited, so maybe we will come539back in a second round, but thank you.540    I yield.541    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.542    The chair now recognizes Mr. Barrett for 5 minutes.543    Mr. Barrett. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for544being here today. Appreciate your testimony.545    I am learning a little bit more about this program along546with several others that certainly VA has and continue the547mission that we owe to our veterans. I know you mentioned to548the ranking member a 48-month eligibility window. That is the549months of eligibility in the program, not the calendar months550it would take to necessarily progress through the program. Is551that fairly accurate?552    Ms. Devlin. That is correct.553    Mr. Barrett. Then an individual could be eligible for an554extension of that due to a life circumstance or a geographical555change or a worsening of their condition, another additional556months for a new training for maybe a new job or something of557that sort?558    Ms. Devlin. In certain circumstances, yes, there are559criteria for those extensions.560    Mr. Barrett. A person may somewhat--not to compare this561directly to the GI Bill, but maybe they would use 12 months of562eligibility, have a break in time where they were not using it,563and then come back and use it again sometime later?564    Ms. Devlin. Yes. If they still have remaining months of565entitlement, they can do that.566    Mr. Barrett. Okay. I know that--I believe in some of my567analysis before me, it said something like there were some568veterans in this program for like--since the 1990's, I think.569Is that some of what--is that starting and stopping or is that570people getting new benefits that have been awarded to them due571to a change in circumstance?572    Ms. Devlin. Yes, thank you for the question. In my573oversight we have--I have been looking at those cases and I574have been asking the regional office directors to look at those575cases. What we found is a combination of things. Some of the576cases of veterans who seem to have been in for many, many577years, they have been in and out of the program to the point of578actually having their cases closed where they are no longer an579active case in our program. Then they come back sometimes years580later and they reapply. When we look at their cases, we see the581life of their participation even if they left the program for582several years and came back.583    Mr. Barrett. Okay. The individual I think from 1991 or 1992584that we were alerted to would be somebody most likely, without585speaking in that case specifically, but in general would be586somebody who may have had some number of benefits 30 years ago587and then had time off from that and then maybe had either a588worsening of their condition, a geographic relocation, or589another change of life circumstance that would necessitate them590re-entering the program and reopening that up at some point591more recently?592    Ms. Devlin. Right. Without seeing the case specifically, I593cannot speak to that case.594    Mr. Barrett. Yes.595    Ms. Devlin. Yes, it could be any host of those things.596    Mr. Barrett. The window of time would suggest that this597person had been in the program since 1990-whenever, when, in598fact, they may have had possibly some months of eligibility599then, and then some months of eligibility today. The entirety600of that would be shown up on a report somewhere?601    Ms. Devlin. Yes, that is correct.602    Mr. Barrett. Okay. I appreciate that background. Then could603an individual use this, is this just for upskilling or could it604be for higher education, advanced degree fields, things of that605sort as well, sort of like the GI Bill?606    Ms. Devlin. The way the statute is written is it is for a607vocational goal. Whatever that veteran's career goal, it is the608educational level that they need to be able to compete for609entry into that occupation. If that occupation that is within610their interests, aptitudes, and abilities requires a bachelor's611degree or a master's degree or, in some cases, a noncollege612degree, some technical training----613    Mr. Barrett. Right.614    Ms. Devlin [continuing]. that would be the level of615training that they would be approved for to participate in.616    Mr. Barrett. I know we have a lot of GI Bill eligibility of617differences and things like that. Is there a lot of overlap618between a program that would be GI Bill-qualified and would be619qualified under this program as well?620    Ms. Devlin. Recently, actually, VR&E tightened up those621guidelines based on an Office of Inspector General (OIG)622review. The only types of training programs that a VR&E623counselor can authorize for a veteran must be also approved for624the GI Bill. The only exception is if they want to approve a625special school, it has to come up all the way to the VR&E626service director for review.627    Mr. Barrett. Okay. It would have--it is not the other way628around, though. The GI Bill does not have to be through VR&E.629The VR&E would have to be a GI Bill-approved institution----630    Ms. Devlin. That is correct.631    Mr. Barrett [continuing]. for qualifying. Okay. Do we pay632the full freight for that program if it is GI Bill-eligible, if633you are VR&E-eligible?634    Ms. Devlin. The GI Bill has different rules in place for635how much tuition can be paid for.636    Mr. Barrett. Yep.637    Ms. Devlin. A VR&E participant would get 100 percent of all638tuition, books, fees, and supplies that are necessary for them639to complete the program.640    Mr. Barrett. The living stipend, as well?641    Ms. Devlin. As well as the living stipend, which they can642elect the Chapter 33 rate if they have that eligibility.643    Mr. Barrett. Okay. Up to 48 months of eligibility, which644could be academic months, not calendar months?645    Ms. Devlin. Correct. It is academic months. It is the646months that they actually receive subsistence allowance.647    Mr. Barrett. Okay, thank you. Then my last question, in648just the brief time I have available, some of the automation649that you have in the replacement of legacy systems, you feel650that that is going to offload some of your staff workload to651kind of open up more bandwidth for them?652    Ms. Devlin. It is definitely going to help. We are already653showing that it is limited to about----654    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.655    Ms. Devlin [continuing]. 6,000 hours.656    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman's time has expired.657    The chair now recognizes Mr. McGarvey for 5 minutes.658    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Ms. Devlin for659being with us today.660    I would like to take a moment to talk about a piece of661bipartisan legislation I am working on and proud to be co-662leading out of this committee, the Focused Assistance and663Skills Training for Veterans Employment and Transition Success.664We call it FAST VETS for short. It is one of the several665efforts coming out of this committee aimed at making the VR&E666program work better for the people it is meant to serve: our667veterans.668    The FAST VETS Act is not about overhauling VR&E. It is669about restoring integrity and ensuring counselors are not given670unnecessary workloads. This bill puts in place commonsense671guardrails. They respect veterans' time, counselors' capacity,672and taxpayer investment because a well-crafted plan is more673than a piece of paper. It is a promise.674    Ms. Devlin, let us say that Jane Yoakum from Veterans of675Foreign Wars of the United States (VFW) Post 8639 in676Louisville, Kentucky, is approved for a vocational677rehabilitation plan, but later wants to change it. Something678happens. What exactly are the counselors looking at when679deciding whether to approve that change?680    Ms. Devlin. That is a really great question. That is681considered a redevelopment of a plan and the counselors do have682the authority to review the plan with the veteran. In fact,683they must review the plan with the veteran at least once a year684to make sure the veteran is on track. A veteran who wishes to685change their program simply because they wish to must undergo a686review by the counselor to determine that they are not going to687be wasting basically months of entitlement on training that688would no longer be viable.689    What usually happens is there is a change in circumstances690in that veteran's life. It could be disability-related, it691could be geography-related. Occupations are different in692different, you know, parts of the country. In those cases, the693VR&E counselor would work with the veteran to make sure that694they can leverage the months of entitlement they have used695while redeveloping their plan to the new vocational goal.696    Mr. McGarvey. Right, because things happen, life happens.697Are those criteria consistent across regional offices? Or is,698my example I use Jane Yoakum from Louisville, Kentucky, is that699going to experience going to depend on where the veteran lives?700    Ms. Devlin. It really depends on that veteran's701circumstances. This is a program for veterans who are all702individuals with their own unique circumstances and the career703goals that they are interested are unique as well. I would say704it is tailored to the individual.705    Mr. McGarvey. Let us say that FAST VETS is enacted and706plans are only changed if there is a real need, like when the707plan is not workable or no longer fits their situation, like708you were just describing. What new protocols would the VA need709in place within the first year?710    Ms. Devlin. That is a great question. If this was enacted711into law, we would need to put procedures in place that would712have the counselor documenting why there was a circumstance713that required this change versus it being just a request by the714veteran, which is, I believe, what you are aiming to achieve715with this bill, if I understood you correctly.716    Mr. McGarvey. It is. Also, I think, you know, we are717worried about this actually going into effect. Right? Again,718this cannot be a piece of paper. We are trying to make a719program workable for our vets. This is a bridge to their720independence that we want to have happen. At least if this gets721going, can you commit to issuing updated guidance for722counselors and sharing that data with this committee on the723redevelopment rates and rationales?724    Ms. Devlin. Absolutely, yes.725    Mr. McGarvey. Perfect. In your written testimony, you noted726that the VA is currently short 387 vocational rehabilitation727counselors that is necessary to meet the VA's 1-to-125 target728counselor-to-veteran ratio. Given that only vocational729rehabilitation counselors are authorized to make redevelopment730decisions for veterans' rehabilitation plans and not other731employees like vocational rehabilitation specialists, what732steps is VA taking to prevent burnout and to ensure these733important decisions are not being rushed or missed?734    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. That is one of the735reasons we implemented the national strategy of caseload736assignment, so that we can make sure we are not burning out the737counselors in the jurisdictions where we have increased veteran738workload that they cannot manage. I will tell you that the739President's budget for Fiscal Year 2026 does allow for an740additional 403 counselors.741    Mr. McGarvey. Thank you. Like I said, this is about keeping742promises. Right? This is about making sure that our veterans743have the resources they need to get back into the workforce to744build that bridge to independence. If we want VR&E to be a745bridge to that independence, we need clarity. We need746consistency. We need accountability. I know this FAST VETS bill747lays the foundation, at least a stone in the foundation for748that.749    Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.750    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back the remainder of751his time.752    The chair now recognizes my friend from the great State of753Arizona, Mr. Ciscomani.754    Mr. Ciscomani. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you also,755Ms. Devlin, for being here today and thank you for your756testimony and thank you for the time with us for coming over757and testifying.758    I have been very interested in learning more about the VR&E759program as you have been talking about its success and how we760can best improve it to ensure veterans with disabilities or761barriers to employment are properly trained and also educated762in that process. I was proud to see you mentioned my bill, H.R.7633579, the Veterans Readiness and Employment Program Integrity764Act, in your testimony and that there is a benefit in having765success metrics such as participants, the employment status,766and the annual wages tracked. I think any kind of metric in767every area in government is important, but definitely here to768make sure that our veterans are being served properly, and for769the average wait times to see a counselor be published online.770I think that transparency is also very important and it points771to something that we can improve and do a better job at.772    A quick question here. One key issue that I often hear773about from my constituents are the long wait times associated774with VA services overall. At the Phoenix VA in my home State of775Arizona, the average wait time for a VR&E appointment is around776114 days. One hundred and 14 days to meet with a vocational777rehab counselor, VRC obviously, which well exceeds the VA's778goal of the 60-day maximum that we have talked about.779    What do you believe accounts for this and what is the VA's780plan of action to reduce these wait times, specifically in781Arizona, where the wait times in the Phoenix VA is different782than the one in the Tucson, the Southern Arizona VA, which they783happen to be on different sides of the wait time spectrum here?784What are your thoughts on that?785    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. I will tell you,786though, we have improved the wait times in Arizona. It is down787to just a little over 41 days now.788    Mr. Ciscomani. The Phoenix VA specifically?789    Ms. Devlin. Arizona as a whole.790    Mr. Ciscomani. Arizona as a whole?791    Ms. Devlin. Yes.792    Mr. Ciscomani. Yes.793    Ms. Devlin. What we are doing to improve that is we are794using a national strategy for reassigning signing cases. We795have some stations where the counselors are at either 1-to-125796ratio or less than that. We have greater capacity there. We are797using virtual counseling capability where the veteran has a798virtual counseling appointment with a counselor. It does not799have to be a counselor in Arizona. It can be a counselor in any800one of our stations that has capacity. The goal being to get801them their entitlement decision quickly so they do not have to802wait to get into a rehabilitation program.803    Mr. Ciscomani. They take this from home or----804    Ms. Devlin. Yes.805    Mr. Ciscomani. Yes? Excellent. Okay. Well, that is good.806Thank you for informing me of that. You know, the experiences807that I hear about from our veterans at home between one of the808VAs, the Tucson one or the Phoenix one, sometimes is very809different. I am interested in looking more into the 41-day810average, I am assuming, that is between both VAs, which I am811assuming that the wait times in the Tucson VA help the average812out from what I am hearing from Phoenix. The wait times813specifically in the Phoenix one continue to be high from what I814am--from the information that I have. I want to make sure that815we tackle that.816    I think I may have time for one more question. As I817mentioned previously, I believe that it is our role to ensure818individuals participating in this program are getting a good819return on the investment. Some of the recent statistics show820that what appears to be a high number of veterans re-enrolling821in the program, about 45 percent from the information that I822have. What do you believe is the cost of this high re-823enrollment rate? What does that say about the success metric of824the program and its ability to prepare and connect disabled825veterans to meaningful careers?826    Ms. Devlin. Thank you for the question. The statute does827allow for veterans who were previously rehabilitated to,828obviously, reapply and to be considered for the program again.829If their disabilities worsened or that for some other reason830they can no longer perform the occupation, they may be found831entitled to another program of services. It is not a832continuation of their previous program. It is a new program833because that employment that they were suitably employed in is834no longer going to work for them.835    Mr. Ciscomani. It is considered a re-enrollment, but it is836in nature a new experience, a new enrollment, a new result I am837assuming that they are waiting for?838    Ms. Devlin. It does require--yes, it requires a new839rehabilitation plan with a new goal.840    Mr. McGarvey. Okay, excellent. Well, that is all. I have841got one more, but we can do that later.842    Thank you, sir. Appreciate it. Yield back.843    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.844    Ms. Devlin, I just want to--what happened, like, what845happened over the last, you know, insert months where this846seemed to kind of spiral out of control? Can you, you know,847give me the Reader's Digest on that one?848    Ms. Devlin. Well, the main thing is the ballooning of the849workload because of the PACT Act making more veterans eligible850to apply. Those veterans are predominantly in--certain states851have a higher, you know, veteran population. Those stations got852impacted more.853    Mr. Van Orden. I was not here. Were you here for the PACT854Act, Chris?855    Mr. Pappas. Mm-hmm.856    Mr. Van Orden. Was that thought of? I mean, was this857predicted in the PACT Act? By the way, we are going to have858more guys and gals, and, therefore, we are going to have to859have more counselors for VR&E?860    Mr. Pappas. I am sure it was anticipated, yes.861    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Then we are just failing somewhere862along the lines.863    I want to talk to you for a second. You said you need 387864additional counselors on top of what is in the President's865budget?866    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. That would be to get us to the 1-to-867125 ratio.868    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. You are saying you need roughly 800869counselors, is that right?870    Ms. Devlin. We currently have 1,056 performing this work.871    Mr. Van Orden. You need 1,400 or 1,500 total? Okay. How872many vets have been in this program for longer than 48 months?873    Ms. Devlin. I do not have that number off the top of my874head, sir.875    Mr. Van Orden. Right here. It is big. This is, I mean,876Chris cannot read this, by the way. I can. I mean, it is really877small. I did take my glasses off to read it, but we got some878people here that have been receiving these benefits for like 82879months in a row and 461,000 bucks, we got $895,000. The list880goes on and on and on and on and on. I am just wondering, you881know, has anyone been held accountable to your knowledge, and I882know you just got there, for this?883    I mean, imagine how much medical benefits we could give to884folks or how many more of these people we could hire if we were885not spending $900,000 for an individual to get 72 months of886training doing I do not know what. To your knowledge, has887anyone been held accountable for this?888    Ms. Devlin. We have increased oversight over the last889couple of months in looking into those cases to make sure that890the right things are being done. Either the veteran needs to be891re-engaged and finish their program or----892    Mr. Van Orden. Ma'am, I understand. I am talking about at893the Veterans Affairs Administration, to your knowledge, has894anyone been held accountable for this absolute buffoonery?895    Ms. Devlin. We have to look at the individual cases. It is896not necessarily incorrect for that veteran to be in the program897that long.898    Mr. Van Orden. Ms. Devlin, where do you go to college where899you spend $900,000 for a degree?900    Ms. Devlin. One of those cases that I looked at in my901oversight capacity was actually an independent living case902where the veteran needed adaptation to their home to be able to903navigate their home effectively.904    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Now, this is what we talked about905previously, and we are talking about splitting pools of money,906but is that the case with this guy? We do not know. It is907interrupted. We need to really get into this because this908committee is also responsible for adaptive housing, so we need909to have very clear funding lines.910    There is another thing. How do you establish the Basic911Allowance for Housing (BAH) rate for a student? What is it912based on?913    Ms. Devlin. The BAH rate is established in the Chapter 33914guidelines, and VR&E simply uses those tables.915    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. If a person's home of record is in916Michigan and they fly to San Diego to take a single class, they917get San Diego per diem?918    Ms. Devlin. They would get their rate----919    Mr. Van Orden. Or BAH.920    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. They would get the rate based on the921facility they are attending in person.922    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. See, this is an issue because that is923$4,000. BAH, you know, having been in the military for a long924time, is based on where you live or your duty station. This is925something that Chris and I have to work on because that is926fraudulent, in my opinion. You know, you are living in a place927where the cost of living is so small, and then you fly in for a928single class to do something, and you are, you know, making929three times the BAH. That is something we need to look at from930an oversight perspective, because that is legislative.931    Ms. Devlin. That is legislative. That is correct, sir.932    Mr. Van Orden. That is why we need to do our job. I am933telling you, it is frustrating a little bit. What do you think?934Like, right now, you have a magic wand, what do you do to fix935this program? We got 19 seconds.936    Ms. Devlin. I do not have a magic wand. What we are doing937is increasing internal controls to make sure that we can more938closely monitor these things and hold our leaders accountable939for monitoring the program.940    Mr. Van Orden. Okay. Well, my time has expired.941    Mr. Pappas, do you have more questions?942    Mr. Pappas. Yes, thank you.943    Mr. Van Orden. All right. We will do a second round of944questioning. Mr. Pappas, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.945    Mr. Pappas. Thanks very much. I know our friend Mike Levin946used to sit in the seat and was very much focused on what was947happening in San Diego, where the numbers were far greater in948terms of wait times than what I would see in my region of the949country. The regional office for VR&E in my region in Boston,950the wait time is 33 days. I understand that progress has been951made at San Diego. I know that was in your testimony. Can you952drill down a little bit on that in terms of what tools have953proven successful there? I know you talked about the virtual954counseling capabilities and redistributing work, and if you955could also talk about whether that has met with veteran956acceptance along the way, and that is a path that veterans are957okay with choosing, it would be great to hear that.958    Ms. Devlin. Yes. With San Diego specifically, we deployed a959help team of 11 people. These are people who were recently put960into quality assurance positions. They are some of our best961counselors, and they dug in and helped San Diego first, and962then we also did the reassignment of work for the virtual963counseling.964    We have not heard any complaints. Veterans seem to really965appreciate the availability of virtual counseling. Truthfully,966it is seamless to them where their counselor sits as long as967they get the counseling appointment that they need to get968entitlement and get a rehabilitation plan developed.969    Mr. Pappas. Okay. It appears that progress was made in part970by making sure that ratios were in a much more acceptable place971than they previously had been in San Diego. Is that right?972    Ms. Devlin. Yes. Ratios were adjusted based on moving the973workload to the people that we have on board.974    Mr. Pappas. Okay. It appears that you cannot fully get975there nationally and address those ratios without the976additional people that you indicated you need for the program.977    Ms. Devlin. That is correct.978    Mr. Pappas. Okay. As enrollments increased since the979passage of PACT, obviously staffing became a challenge and did980not keep pace. I am wondering if you can reflect a little bit981more on why that was the case.982    Ms. Devlin. The VR&E Division and the field offices did do983some hiring over the last few years, but they also had some984attrition. I will say that the field of rehabilitation985counseling as a whole is not a growing occupation. That is why986the new position of voc rehab specialist was created, so that987different bachelor's degrees, for example, in other human988services occupations could be considered.989    The previous administration had to make decisions, and they990made decisions about hiring based on disability claims991processing. The priority was given to hiring of disability992claims processors versus voc rehab counselors.993    Mr. Pappas. In terms of the work that counselors do,994obviously you can look at it in terms of numbers and having995caseloads in the right place that might provide them with a996better working environment and an ability to help veterans in a997more timely fashion. Are there other ways you are thinking998about retention and holding on to those qualified counselors999that you have and working to avoid burnout?1000    Ms. Devlin. Yes, I am very concerned about retention with1001our counselors. I have recently convened a group of leaders1002from the field, regional office directors, assistant directors,1003and VR&E officers to meet with me to give me recommendations on1004how we can make improvements in the field. VR&E service has1005done some great work, but really the field is where the rubber1006meets the road. Those are the people that I need to hear from1007directly. We have started meeting and discussing what to do to1008improve the program as a whole and also to improve things like1009retention and recruitment.1010    Mr. Pappas. Okay. That is it for me. I will yield back, Mr.1011Chairman.1012    Mr. Van Orden. Thank you, Ranking Member Pappas.1013    Can you explain to me the difference between a veterans1014rehabilitation specialist and a veterans rehabilitation1015counselor?1016    Ms. Devlin. Yes, sir. A vocational rehabilitation counselor1017has a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling, and so it1018is a specific industry. Then a vocational--and they can make1019decisions, like entitlement decisions, and they can do the full1020gamut of services. They can get a veteran all the way from the1021very beginning of application, all the way through to1022declaration of rehabilitation.1023    A vocational rehab specialist can be at a bachelor's level,1024similar types of educational credentials, but at the bachelor's1025level. They cannot make entitlement decisions, but they can1026help the veteran. Once the rehabilitation plan has been1027developed by a voc rehab counselor, they can help the veteran1028throughout the lifetime of their case, all the way through1029declarations of rehabilitation or discontinuance if the veteran1030stops participating.1031    Mr. Van Orden. What is the ratio between a specialist and a1032counselor? Like, how many specialists do you have compared to1033counselors?1034    Ms. Devlin. Well, you know, I have the combined number. It1035is 1,056 of the two combined. I am sorry, I do not have the1036ratio between the two.1037    Mr. Van Orden. In your professional opinion, do you think1038you need a master's degree to pull this off?1039    Ms. Devlin. I think that what the master's degree gives us,1040I have a master's degree in rehabilitation counseling, and the1041training that you get in those master's degrees is how to1042really take a look at the disability conditions and the1043occupational areas and all of the support that a veteran might1044need to achieve rehabilitation and overcome those barriers.1045Other occupations, such as social work, for example, might be1046more comprehensive in the clinical sense, but less focused on1047the occupational sense.1048    Mr. Van Orden. Well, Ms. Devlin, I would posit that if you1049have a 45 percent recidivism rate, that is the wrong term1050because they are not going to jail, but if 45 percent of our1051veterans are returning, I would say that maybe we are not1052getting the money--or the bang for the buck with a master's1053degree. If someone is--if they are missing the mark 45 percent1054of the time. What we are trying to do, if you need an1055additional 400 folks, you know, that is going to be really hard1056to produce these people.1057    What I need from you is I need the ratio and I would like1058to see the specific differences. If you do not have in front of1059you right now, just get it to me. I want to see the specific1060differences in authorities. Having done this myself, and my1061counselor, her first name was Ann, I will not say her name, but1062was awesome. You know, I do not know if she had a master's1063degree or a bachelor's degree. She was great. Then seeing1064people along the way, I just think that what we are doing is we1065are requiring an educational--we are setting a standard for an1066education that is actually limiting our ability to hire people.1067I do not see an appreciable difference between the two right1068now.1069    I do not want this to be a program that is hampered by an1070artificial requirement. The Secretary of Defense and some other1071folks have removed these requirements for GS levels. You know,1072you have to have a bachelor's to be this and a master's. Okay.1073That has been removed through a lot of these different career1074fields. I think that is something we need to look at here just1075because of these things. I mean, we got real--we have empiric1076knowledge, you know, experience-based knowledge now that this1077is something that needs to be looked at. You know, to my1078ranking member friend's point, you know, we want to make sure1079that we can get everybody what they need.1080    You are good? Okay. Well, I want to thank you for coming1081today, Ms. Devlin. We do have a lot of work ahead of us. I want1082this to be an open line of communication and, again, I accept1083full responsibility for my lack of oversight being the chairman1084of the subcommittee in the last Congress. That is on me and I1085am not running away from that. I know that you have personally1086assured me and I am going to take you at your word that you1087will increase your oversight and I would like to be able to1088exchange ideas on this.1089    Again, this is a fantastic program, but it is rife for1090abuse and it is too easy to defraud this program. We want to1091make sure that we hyper focus these dollars because this, I1092mean, how much is it, 72,000 bucks a year? I mean, we could1093essentially fund everybody you need if we got rid of what is1094clearly fraud. I mean, we can say whatever you want, but you do1095not spend $900,000, not have a bachelor's degree. It is just1096not it.1097    Then we are also going to work on splitting off the1098adaptive home things because those are super important, too. I1099mean, that veteran loses their legs or arms or whatever, that1100is--we need to do that and I do not care how much it costs.1101That is a debt that we owe to the veterans. I just want to be1102able to clean up our funding lines so we know exactly what we1103are spending it on, so we can maximize these dollars to give1104every veteran that earned these benefits exactly what they need1105to thrive.1106    I would now like to yield to my ranking member if you have1107any closing comments, sir.1108    Mr. Pappas. No, thanks. I think we generally agree on the1109challenges here, and I am, you know, grateful to hear some of1110the ways that you have made some progress at realizing better1111numbers in certain locations around the country, including San1112Diego. I think they are important lessons to be learned.1113    In addition to rebalancing caseloads and having better1114internal controls and providing the best training possible, it1115is clear this is an issue where we need more people. We need1116more counselors and support staff in order to get to those1117ratios that are acceptable so that veterans are not waiting far1118too long and are getting the help that they deserve.1119    I know I want to work with you on that to help get you the1120support that you need and deserve there. I am grateful for your1121reflections and want to continue to make sure we are engaging1122the veteran community in terms of their own satisfaction and1123trust with respect to this program, which is a real game-1124changer, as you said, Mr. Chairman. I am glad that this support1125is there.1126    We have got a ways to go to make it better. Certainly we1127have to pay attention to those cases where fraud is possible or1128where it may be happening. As you say, there are complex cases1129out there, and I think we need to make sure that we are focused1130on the big challenge here, which is ensuring that the increased1131number of veterans that are moving through this program get the1132help they need. You cannot get there without people and having1133the right staff. I remain committed to providing that as best I1134can.1135    I yield back.1136    Mr. Van Orden. The gentleman yields back.1137    Ms. Devlin, again, thank you so much for coming today. I1138appreciate it. It is kind of lonely sitting out there by1139yourself, but you did a bang up job.1140    I ask unanimous consent that all members may have 51141legislative of days to revise and extend their remarks and1142include extraneous materials.1143    Without objection, so ordered.1144    The hearing is now adjourned.1145    [Whereupon, at 3:21 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]11461147=======================================================================11481149                         A  P  P  E  N  D  I  X11501151=======================================================================11521153                    Prepared Statements of Witnesses11541155                              ----------11561157                 Prepared Statement of Margarita Devlin11581159    Chairman Van Orden, Ranking Member Pappas, and distinguished1160members of the Subcommittee, I appreciate the opportunity to appear1161before you today to discuss the Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E)1162Program.1163    I had the privilege of seeing the transformational impact of the1164VR&E program from multiple vantage points. I began my journey as a1165counselor working directly with Veterans to navigate their career paths1166and achieve their goals. I then had the honor of holding several1167leadership positions in VR&E in the field and at headquarters. At every1168level I witnessed how the program can truly change lives--helping1169Veterans rediscover purpose, achieve independence, and thrive in their1170post-service careers. During the first Trump administration, I served1171as the Principal Deputy Under Secretary for Benefits.1172    One of our top priorities at that time was to address staffing1173shortfalls in VR&E by working diligently to achieve the counselor-to-1174Veteran ratio of 1 to 125. That is why it was especially disheartening1175to see much of that progress eroded over the past 4 years.11761177Challenges and Change11781179    One of the challenges we face is the result of programmatic1180mismanagement over the past few years, which diverted critical funding1181away from hiring much needed counselors. Under this Administration's1182leadership, I developed a resourcing plan to ensure that resources1183allocated to VR&E through the President's budget are fully directed to1184the mission they are intended to support. Bottom line--not having focus1185on the program and ignoring the challenges it faced was unacceptable.1186    Despite these challenges, we made meaningful progress in the past1187couple of months. I understand that your staff recently visited our San1188Diego Regional Office. I hope you saw there that we are working hard to1189make changes to better serve Veterans.1190    Other significant changes currently in progress include improving1191workload management, which you highlighted in previous hearings--high1192wait times and cases so old due to lack of proper oversight.1193    We also are accelerating eligibility decisions and making sure1194Veterans are getting the timely support they deserve. We deployed help1195teams, streamlined processes, and focused squarely on service delivery.1196    Under new leadership, my commitment is simple. I want to restore1197your trust in the VR&E program and earn the trust of the Veterans and1198transitioning Service members who earned this benefit and deserve only1199the best.12001201Program Overview12021203    The mission of the Veterans Benefits Administration (VBA) VR&E1204program is to assist Service members and Veterans with a service-1205connected disability that limits their ability to work or prevents them1206from finding or maintaining suitable careers or living more1207independently. VBA achieves this mission by providing direct counseling1208services to ensure participants' goals are not only achievable but1209attained.1210    VR&E assists Service members and Veterans to find a suitable career1211goal or to live more independently through its five tracks of service:1212(1) rapid access to employment, (2) re-employment, (3) employment1213through long-term services, (4) self-employment, and (5) independent1214living. VR&E works directly with Service members and Veterans to1215identify suitable goals and develop a highly individualized plan for1216them. VR&E also monitors their progress and provides professional1217counseling and support by trained Vocational Rehabilitation Counselors1218(VRCs) and Vocational Rehabilitation Specialists (VRS).12191220Program Growth, Staffing, and Workload Management12211222    VA consistently monitors Veteran participation in VR&E services to1223ensure that the program provides dedicated and focused counseling that1224leads to successful employment outcomes. From October 2020 to June12252025, the VR&E caseload grew significantly. The caseload was 112,627 in1226October 2020 and is 186,826 as of June 2025, reflecting a total growth1227of 52.3 percent. This sharp increase underscores the escalating demand1228for VR&E services, driven by an increase in the eligible Veteran1229population due to the PACT Act and Benefits Delivery at Discharge1230program, as well as successful outreach efforts aimed at informing more1231Veterans about the program. This includes the program name change in1232June 2020, to better reflect the program's focus on helping Veterans1233achieve their employment goals and reduce any stigma or confusion1234associated with the previous name.1235    Staffing allowances in the past few Fiscal Years allowed VR&E to1236hire 1 counselor for every 140 Veterans in the program. However, with1237VBA's current counselors onboard, VR&E is at a national caseload ratio1238at 1 to 175. VR&E currently requires an additional 387 counselors to1239meet the growing demand for VR&E services and drive the staffing toward12401 to 125 counselor to caseload ratio. While VA is reviewing the1241staffing levels and budget, VR&E is actively taking steps to ensure1242that every Veteran receives the care and benefits they earned.1243    VBA is addressing the increasing VR&E workload through several1244approaches. In recent months, we implemented a help team approach to1245reduce pending applications at several stations. In this model we take1246a team of 11 Quality Review Specialists and partner them with station1247resources to conduct group orientation sessions and expedited1248entitlement determinations in the initial stages of the VR&E claims1249process. This implementation allows us to reduce the pending work at1250the application and evaluation and planning stages, thus providing1251faster decisions to Veterans. The San Diego Regional Office (RO) used1252this approach, and recently other stations used this approach to assist1253pending workload. Quality Assurance results will be monitored to1254determine if there is an impact to claim quality.1255    We implemented brokering strategies to address geographical demand1256and make the most efficient use of our national resources to process1257pending claims timelier. Stations with the highest caseload ratios1258broker work to stations with lower caseloads, thus allowing the pending1259work to be addressed more efficiently. We shift work strategically to1260balance demands and resources nationwide, thus improving the timeliness1261of services to Veterans. We employ a combination of a regular brokering1262cadence and supplement this by addressing surges in workload as needed.1263We conduct a regular analysis of all workload stages and make1264adjustment as needed.1265    We also address our increasing claims inventory by using1266contracting funds. We are using contracting funds to target assistance1267to stations with high workloads. The primary focus is on the reduction1268of the applicant workload but also focuses on cases in the interrupted1269status. We assign contract dollars as needed for this effort to ensure1270the funds are allocated based on greatest workload need. Initial1271results of this new effort are positive.1272    We are taking advantage of technology to improve our service to1273Veterans participating in the VR&E program. We launched the Electronic1274Virtual Assistant (eVA) system on June 20, 2020, which increased1275efficiencies in administrative duties like requesting and collecting1276documents in support of the claim and sending appointment reminders. We1277began implementation of our new Readiness and Employment System (RES)1278nationwide on May 19, 2025. RES is a new modern case management system1279that will ultimately replace the legacy system, CWINRS.\1\ RES will1280increase automation and reduce manual calculations, reduce the time1281needed to perform case management activities, display real-time1282eligibility and benefit information, and improve business processes to1283name a few. We will complete this staged implementation roll out by the1284end of September 2025. Once RES is fully deployed, it will capture1285additional efficiencies in the establishment of new cases, automate1286certain financial functions, and provide a more efficient VRC user1287interface. Veterans will experience reduced wait times and faster1288decisions.1289---------------------------------------------------------------------------1290    \1\ Corporate Winston-Salem, Indianapolis, Newark, Roanoke, and1291Seattle System. The name is derived from the first letter of the names1292of the five pilot test stations that tested the original program. It is1293an automated case management system supporting the VR&E program1294(legacy).1295---------------------------------------------------------------------------1296    To address the growing demand for VR&E services, we designed these1297multiple approaches to mitigate against the current staffing shortage.1298In addition to these efforts, we use and leverage overtime funds for1299addressing high priority areas, conduct monthly calls with stations for1300discussing the status of aging cases, and increase oversight and1301management support for improving efficiency, applying best practices,1302and ensuring agile workload strategies are in place.13031304Program Oversight13051306    VA's dedication to improving the VR&E program led to several1307initiatives aimed at enhancing service delivery for Veterans. Our1308comprehensive plan to enhance VR&E program compliance underscores our1309strong commitment to proper oversight, regulatory adherence, and1310consistent service delivery across all regional offices. Due to the1311increased demand for services, national compliance required additional1312oversight for workload management and customer service strategies.1313Consequently, we adjusted auditing processes to ensure field leaders1314had the necessary knowledge and skills to meet larger workload demands.1315    As part of this initiative, we designed revamped site visit1316protocols to ensure consistency and thorough workload management. We1317structure these visits to identify best practices, address challenges,1318and ensure compliance with regulations, policies, and procedures. The1319goals are to guarantee consistent service delivery across all VR&E ROs,1320provide comprehensive workload management and oversight, highlight and1321share best practices, and promptly address challenges. These measures1322reflect our dedication to improving the VR&E Program and offering1323Veterans the highest quality of service.1324    VA is committed to ensuring that congressional intent is carried1325out in a fiscally responsible and responsible manner to honor Veterans1326enrolled in the program. An example of VA's responsiveness is1327demonstrated by the quick actions taken as a result of a 2023 Office of1328Inspector General (OIG) report. VA demonstrated proactive leadership1329and commitment to compliance by implementing significant reforms to1330ensure adherence to Chapter 31-only program requirements. OIG1331identified that VR&E did not correctly implement the law requiring1332individual waivers from the executive director for each participant in1333a Chapter 31-only program.1334    VA updated its guidance, emphasizing that VRCs must use approved GI1335Bill programs to the maximum extent. VA worked to ensure only Veterans1336in unique circumstances received approval to attend a program with this1337limited authority. VA provided training, updated national procedures,1338and discontinued facilities outside of congressional intent in less1339than a year. We complemented these efforts with the establishment of1340robust monitoring processes, including the implementation of compliance1341surveys and Department-wide auditing, thus ensuring all Chapter 31-only1342programs align with legislative intent. VA's proactive actions reflect1343a dedicated effort to enhance program integrity and ensure that1344Veterans receive the highest standard of service. These initiatives1345fortified VA's compliance framework and reaffirmed its commitment to1346accountability and oversight of Veteran service delivery.1347    VBA also conducts monthly national quality assurance (QA) reviews1348on random samples from each RO, alongside individual case manager1349performance assessments through QA reviews conducted at each local1350office. As of May 2025, VR&E exceeded the outstanding target in all1351national performance metrics including Fiscal Accuracy (96 percent),1352Case Management Accuracy (84 percent), and Program Outcome Accuracy (981353percent).13541355VR&E related legislation13561357    VA testified before the House Committee on Veterans' Affairs1358Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity on June 11, 2025, on several bills1359that would impact the VR&E program. VA supported the proposed1360legislation that would limit the extension of a vocational1361rehabilitation program under Chapter 31 to 96 months unless the1362Secretary determines that extraordinary circumstances apply and submits1363written notices of the extension and the extraordinary circumstances to1364the House and Senate Committees on Veterans' Affairs. The limitations1365on extensions in the proposed bill would ensure that resources are used1366effectively and fairly. The goal of the VR&E program is to provide1367personalized support tailored to each Veteran's rehabilitation1368objectives, thus helping them achieve suitable employment or live more1369independently within a reasonable timeframe rather than extending1370benefits indefinitely. Furthermore, VA proposed an amendment to align1371the calculation of entitlement for the VR&E program with other VA1372education programs. This amendment aims to reduce the disparity in the1373order of usage and address reductions of entitlement in the VR&E1374program resulting from the transfer of entitlement to a dependent.1375    VA also supported H.R. 3579, the Veterans Readiness and Employment1376Program Integrity Act. This proposed legislation would require the1377Secretary to report on the employment and annual wages of its1378participants, thus ensuring Veterans are achieving meaningful1379employment. It also would require the Secretary, on an annual basis, to1380publish on a VA website the average wait time from when a Veteran1381requests a vocational rehabilitation program under Chapter 31 to when1382the Veteran first meets with a counselor as part of the Veteran's1383program.1384    Additionally, H.R. 3579 proposes a 1-year limit on employment1385assistance for Veterans who have previously participated in the VR&E1386program or a similar vocational rehabilitation service. Research1387indicates that the highest engagement in employment services typically1388occurs within the first 3 to 6 months. Most participants find1389employment during this timeframe. VA suggested an amendment to apply a1390similar limitation to counseling and placement and postplacement1391services addressed in section 3105(b)(1), which currently allows for1392assistance for up to 18 months. This limitation aims to ensure that1393services and resources are used more efficiently and effectively.1394    The VR&E program acknowledges that collecting and reporting data is1395crucial for demonstrating the program's effectiveness and improving its1396services. The program recently achieved split positive outcomes to show1397those metrics on Veterans who obtain employment and those who have1398achieved rehabilitation to the point of employability. The program1399constantly seeks ways to demonstrate a good return on investment and1400ensure that it effectively meets the needs of Veterans participating in1401the VR&E program.14021403Employment Metrics14041405    Veterans who complete a program of rehabilitation show1406significantly better outcomes compared to those who stop participating1407such as higher employment rates (73 percent vs. 43 percent), greater1408income earnings ($80k vs. $50k), and increased home ownership (771409percent vs. 62 percent).\2\ In addition, their reliance on supplemental1410programs decreased (35 percent vs. 58 percent), thus highlighting1411participants successful transition and reduced need for further1412support.1413---------------------------------------------------------------------------1414    \2\ Fiscal Year 2023 Veteran Readiness and Employment (VR&E)1415Longitudinal Study1416---------------------------------------------------------------------------1417    Continuing our commitment to helping more Veterans successfully1418transition into the workforce, VR&E focuses on employment outcomes. An1419employment outcome represents a rehabilitation when a Veteran completes1420their program and is successful in gaining suitable employment. From1421Fiscal Year (FY) 2020 to Fiscal Year 2024, VR&E Service recorded a1422consistent number of employment outcomes, over 10,000 each fiscal year,1423and 10,501 in Fiscal Year 2024 alone. In Fiscal Year 2025, 7,4861424employment outcomes were achieved through June 20, 2025, which is1425currently 9 percent over the established target for Employment1426Outcomes.14271428Readiness and Employment System14291430    As noted earlier in this testimony, VR&E began implementation of1431the RES nationwide. A significant leap toward enhancing efficiency and1432service delivery, VR&E successfully automated the eligibility1433determination process through the RES. This process, previously1434requiring the effort of two employees, was streamlined to require only1435one employee, thanks to the integration with the Master Person Index1436and VA Profile. When an application arrives in RES, it is immediately1437matched with enterprise data to automate previously manual data entry,1438thus ensuring all necessary information is readily available. The1439system's intuitive design processes the data and uses green checkmarks1440and red X's to visually represent eligibility decisions, thus1441simplifying the validation process for field staff. This automation not1442only expedites decision-making but also allows staff to focus on more1443critical aspects of their roles. Accepted applications lead directly to1444case creation and the assignment of a VRC, thus ensuring timely service1445for Veterans. By the end of the pilot, RES automation demonstrated an1446average processing time for Eligibility of 3.4 days, versus over 7 days1447in the legacy CWINRS platform.1448    RES significantly increases the availability of real-time data,1449thus enabling more informed and accurate entitlement decisions through1450automated business rules. By consolidating various data sources and1451providing comprehensive insights into each Veteran's profile, RES helps1452address individual needs more effectively and optimizes the support1453provided. In addition, RES's embedded analytics and robust tracking of1454case management enable more effective decision-making and workload1455management.1456    Since October 9, 2024, the automation processes within RES1457eliminated 5,903 hours of manual data entry, thus allowing field staff1458to dedicate more time to directly supporting Veterans. The automated1459eligibility determinations transformed a two-person intake process into1460a simplified one-person review, which greatly improved efficiency. In1461addition, the automation of calculation and case approval processes1462reduces the need for out-of-system procedures, thus simplifying data1463management. The implementation of a modern user interface based on1464human-centered design principles minimizes fatigue and ensures easy1465access to information within correct workflows, thus further reducing1466administrative constraints.14671468Conclusion14691470    In conclusion, VA is fully committed to making the improvements1471necessary to strengthen the VR&E program from ensuring fiscal1472stewardship and filling critical vacancies to modernizing how we1473deliver services. At the heart of all this work is one goal: ensuring1474that Veterans receive the support they earned, when they need it,1475without lengthy wait times. We know we have work to do, and we are1476determined to get it right. Our Veterans deserve nothing less. Mr.1477Chairman, this concludes my statement. I would be happy to answer any1478questions you or other members of the Subcommittee may have.14791480                       Statements for the Record14811482                              ----------14831484 Prepared Statement of U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs, Office of1485                         the Inspector General1486[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14871488            Prepared Statement of Veterans Education Success1489[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]14901491                                 [all]