A Dire Crisis in Sudan: A Global Call to Action

1[House Hearing, 119 Congress]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                    A DIRE CRISIS IN SUDAN: A GLOBAL CALL5                               TO ACTION67=======================================================================89                                HEARING1011                                OF THE1213                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA1415                               BEFORE THE1617                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS18                     U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES1920                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS2122                             FIRST SESSION2324                               __________2526                              May 22, 20252728                               __________2930                           Serial No. 119-203132                               __________3334        Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs3536[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3738Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov, http://docs.house.gov,39                       or http://www.govinfo.gov4041                                __________4243                   U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE4461-183 PDF                  WASHINGTON : 20254546-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------4748                      COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS4950                    BRIAN J. MAST, Florida, Chairman51MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas             GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York,52CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey         Ranking Member53JOE WILSON,, South Carolina          BRAD SHERMAN, California54SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania            GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia55DARRELL ISSA, California             WILLIAM R. KEATING, Massachusetts56TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee              AMI BERA, California57MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee             JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas58ANDY BARR, Kentucky                  DINA TITUS, Nevada59RONNY JACKSON, Texas                 TED LIEU, California60YOUNG KIM, California                SARA JACOBS, California61MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK,62BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan                  Florida63AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,       GREG STANTON, Arizona64    American Samoa                   JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida65WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio                JONATHAN L. JACKSON, Illinois66JAMES R. BAIRD, Indiana              SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California67THOMAS H. KEAN, JR, New Jersey       JIM COSTA, California68MICHAEL LAWLER, New York             GABE AMO, Rhode Island69CORY MILLS, Florida                  KWEISI MFUME, Maryland70RICHARD McCORMICK, Georgia           PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington71KEITH SELF, Texas                    GEORGE LATIMER, New York72RYAN K. ZINKE, Montana               JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI Jr, Maryland73JAMES C. MOYLAN, Guam                JULIE JOHNSON, Texas74ANNA PAULINA LUNA, Florida           SARAH McBRIDE, Delaware75JEFFERSON SHREVE, Indiana            BRADLEY SCOTT SCHNEIDER, Illinois76SHERI BIGGS, South Carolina          MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania77MICHAEL BAUMGARTNER, Washington78RYAN MACKENZIE, Pennsylvania7980              James Langenderfer, Majority Staff Director81                 Sajit Gandhi, Minority Staff Director82                                 ------8384                         SUBCOMMITTEE ON AFRICA8586               CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey, Chairman87MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida        SARA JACOBS, California, Ranking88 RONNY JACKSON, Texas                    Member89 BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan              SHEILA CHERFILUS-McCORMICK,90 AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN,          Florida91    American Samoa                    JONATHAN JACKSON, Illinois92 JIM BAIRD, Indiana                   PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington93                                      JOHNNY OLSZEWSKI, Maryland9495                 Joe Foltz, Subcommittee Staff Director9697                         C  O  N  T  E  N  T  S9899                              ----------100101                            REPRESENTATIVES102103                                                                   Page104Opening Statement of Subcommittee Chairman Christopher H. Smith..     1105Opening Statement of Subcommittee Ranking Member Sara Jacobs.....     3106107                               WITNESSES108109Statement of Ken Isaacs, Vice President, Programs & Government110  Relations, Samaritan's Purse...................................     6111  Prepared Statement.............................................    10112Statement of Cameron Hudson, Senior Fellow, Africa Program,113  Center for Strategic and International Studies.................    15114  Prepared Statement.............................................    17115Statement of Kholood Khair, Founder and Director, Confluence116  Advisory.......................................................    22117  Prepared Statement.............................................    25118119                                APPENDIX120121Hearing Notice...................................................    54122Hearing Minutes..................................................    56123Hearing Attendance...............................................    57124125            A DIRE CRISIS IN SUDAN: A GLOBAL CALL TO ACTION126127                              ----------128129                         Thursday, May 22, 2025130131                  House of Representatives,132                             Subcommittee on Africa133                              Committee on Foreign Affairs,134                                                    Washington, DC.135136    The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:39 a.m., in137room 2200 Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Christopher Smith138(chairman of the subcommittee) presiding.139    Mr. Smith. The Subcommittee on Africa will come to order.140And the purpose of this hearing is to examine the ongoing141conflict in Sudan, its devastating humanitarian consequences,142including widespread displacement, violence, and external143involvement, and to review the conflict's root causes,144developments, and the responses from the United States and the145international community.146    I do recognize myself at this point for an opening147statement.148149           OPENING STATEMENT OF CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH150151    Over the decades, as especially our distinguished panel152knows, the people of Sudan have been subjected to unbearable153pain, suffering, and loss of life, even slavery. Since the1541990's, I have been a vocal advocate for human rights,155democracy, and stability in Sudan. Soon after Republicans took156control of the House, I chaired a hearing in 1996 on slavery in157Sudan and Mauritania.158    Today, there's a dire crisis again in Sudan, necessitating159a global call to action. I went to Khartoum, for example, in160August 2005 to meet with President Omar al-Bashir and other161government officials, a number of people from the faith162community, to press for an end to the genocide in Darfur. The163meeting was necessarily contentious. Bashir denied any164wrongdoing or complicity in the killings of Darfur genocide.165    In 2009, however, I point this out, Bashir was charged by166the International Criminal Court with committing war crimes and167crimes against humanity. And in 2010, he was the first person168ever charged for the crime of genocide by the ICC.169    After meetings with Bashir and other government officials,170I visited two refugee camps--many of you have done that, many171of my colleagues have done that. Those two camps I went to in172Darfur were Kalma camp and I stayed overnight at another called173Mukjar in western Darfur. An experience that profoundly174motivated me to do more to end the mass violence. When our175helicopter landed at the remote Mukjar camp, thousands, and I176mean thousand, a line was formed of these wonderful people:177women and children dancing, clapping, singing beautiful African178traditional songs. The people of Darfur have a remarkable179generosity and spirit, and it was awe-inspiring.180    Just about everybody I spoke with, however, especially the181women, told me personal stories of rape, senseless beatings,182and massacres by the Janjaweed and Sudanese militias. I was183deeply impressed with the dedication of the African Union184peacekeepers operating under extremely difficult circumstances185and urged international partners, including the United States,186to better equip them. I was shocked to learn they were getting187a little of a dollar a day. It was absurd.188    I went to Condoleezza Rice upon my return and said,189``Please, we've got to augment that. We've got to increase it.190These soldiers are putting their lives on the line. They should191not be so grossly underpaid and not getting the kind of things192that they need in terms of munitions.''193    In November 2005, I chaired another hearing in a series on194Sudan and was absolutely clear that the situation in Darfur was195a genocide. At that time, over 400,000 killed and over a196million displaced. We did stress, all of us, at that hearing197the need for a comprehensive plan that could best contribute to198peace and hold those who have murdered, raped, enslaved, and199plagued the people of Sudan accountable.200    Meanwhile, Chairman Henry Hyde, Donald Payne, who was my201ranking member from New Jersey, Frank Wolf, Tom Lantos, and a202number of others, we pushed the Darfur Peace and Accountability203Act that declared that the slaughter in Darfur was genocide,204imposed sanctions on the malign actors, talked about helping205the peacekeepers. And it was signed into law in October 2006.206That law was built upon the Sudan Peace Act of 2001 and the207Comprehensive Peace in Sudan Act of 2004.208    I also, and I wasn't the only one, called on the Arab209League to leverage its influence over the Sudanese government210by encouraging the government to end its military offensive in211Darfur and accept the United Nations peacekeeping which was212there under the auspices of the AU. They didn't do it. It was213like crickets. We got almost no response at all other than214thank for raising it. So here we are again.215    In January 2017, again on this committee, I objected to the216Obama administration's decision to ease sanctions on Sudan. I217know it had to have been a tough call. We're always trying to218look when the sanctions become counterproductive, so there was219an argument to be made. But I thought it was the wrong one220because Khartoum's government continued pervasive human rights221violations. And we pointed out, at the time the violent222government actions against the Sudanese citizens in Darfur,223Nubia, the Nuba Mountains, and Blue Nile, alongside the224persecution of Christians nationwide.225    I was also disappointed in 2024 by the decision to allow226Sudanese warlord Abdel Fattah al-Burhan into the country for a227meeting with the U.N. Secretary-General. Burhan, as we all228know, has massive amounts of blood on his hands and should229never have been allowed into the U.S.230    Yet the Biden administration delayed and denied robust231sanctions against both Burhan and Hemedti, delaying such232actions until the administration's final hours. While we were233glad when they did it, but we believe, I believe, and many of234us believe it should've been done sooner. There will never be235peace in Sudan until there's accountability for the atrocities236committed by the twin butchers of Darfur.237    Over 18,000 civilian deaths have been committed since 2023,238with estimates as high as 150,000, and more than 10 million239people displaced. These are not just numerical estimates. But240it's the evidence of an appalling range of harrowing human241rights violations and international crimes. Each murder or242displaced civilian is a person with dreams and hopes, family--a243person whose life has been taken or irrevocably changed by244these atrocities.245    Both the Sudanese Armed Forces, SAF, and the Rapid Support246Forces, RSF, are guilty of arbitrary killings, detentions,247abductions, rapes--including the rape of children--repression248of fundamental human rights, illicit gold mining, and child249solider recruitment.250    Illicit Sudanese gold, which the RSF struggles--smuggles, I251should say, through the UAE is crucial to preventing the252continued funding of Hemedti's atrocities and perpetuating this253bloody conflict. The RSF's main international backer is widely254reported to be the UAE, which has supplied weapons and255financial support. Other external actors, such as Chad, have256been accused credibly of enabling arms transfers and have been257implicated in supporting the RSF.258    Domestically, the RSF has allied with some of non-RSF259Janjaweed militias. It is clear that RSF is grappling with260command and control, however, allowing its fighters to rape and261to pillage, to target vulnerable women and children, and to262attack civilian infrastructure. This is the opposite of capable263government, and such behavior only confirms this to the264Sudanese people.265    The SAF has received support from various domestic groups266including the al-Bara Battalion--known as the Popular267Resistance--which openly espouses a militant Islamist ideology,268and former rebel groups including the Sudan Liberation Movement269under Minni Minnawi and Mustafa Tambour. Externally, the SAF270has received support from countries like Egypt, Iran, Qatar,271and Turkey. Russia continues to pursue naval access to Port272Sudan.273    I'd like to now welcome my distinguished colleague, Ms.274Jacobs, for any opening comments that you have.275276        OPENING STATEMENT OF RANKING MEMBER SARA JACOBS277278    Ms. Jacobs. Well, thank you, Chairman Smith, and thank you279to all of our witnesses joining us today to testify and bring280attention to the ongoing catastrophe in Sudan. Last month281marked 2 years since the outbreak of war in Sudan. It is now282the largest humanitarian crisis in the world. Nearly 25 million283people--half of Sudan's population--are facing acute hunger,284and more than half a million people are facing famine. More285than 13 million Sudanese have been displaced from the homes286since the conflict began, including nearly four million people287forced to flee across Sudan's borders as refugees. And I have288seen the suffering firsthand when I traveled to Chad and met289with Sudanese refugees last year.290    And let's be clear: this is a war of choice. The Rapid291Support Forces and the Sudanese Armed Forces and allied292militias have waged this war, committing war crimes and holding293the Sudanese people captive for their own selfish interests.294And their external backers, particularly the United Arab295Emirates with their support to the RSF, in addition to Egypt,296Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Iran, and Russia, have turned this war297into a regional proxy war by supporting and arming either side,298risking further regional destabilization.299    But despite this, the Trump administration is nowhere to be300found. In fact, the administration's actions have only worsened301the suffering of the Sudanese people. The Trump302administration's sham foreign assistance review was really just303a pretext to end most foreign assistance--like food aid,304disaster relief, global health programs, development and305economic aid, and more. In Sudan, it's meant canceling millions306of dollars in U.S.-funded life-saving aid. For instance, before307it was illegally dismantled, USAID was supporting the heroic308efforts of the Sudanese Emergency Response Rooms to open309community kitchens and provide basic meals to Sudanese310civilians throughout the country. Following the massive cuts to311U.S. foreign assistance, which included USAID support to the312ERRs, more than 80 percent of the roughly 1,500 community313kitchens across Sudan have been forced to close their doors--314cutting of vulnerable Sudanese civilians from life-saving food315assistance.316    And the administration hasn't stopped there. Yesterday,317they announced over $87 million worth of canceled humanitarian318programs, including $30 million for emergency nutrition, water,319and food aid in Darfur. The SAF and the RSF continue to commit320atrocities against the Sudanese people, and the people of321Darfur are facing a second genocide in 20 years at the hands of322the RSF. Yet despite the clear need for the United States to323play an active role in negotiations to end this brutal324conflict, the Trump administration has failed to dedicate the325resources necessary to do so.326    More than 4 months into President Trump's term, the327administration has still failed to nominate an Assistant328Secretary for the Bureau of African Affairs at the State329Department, an NSC Senior Director for Africa, or a Special330Envoy for Sudan--a position that the administration is required331to fill by law. And just yesterday, during Secretary Rubio's332testimony, he actually refused to say the word genocide and333reaffirm his previous statements that the RSF is in fact334committing a genocide.335    These actions--or lack thereof--show that Sudan is just not336a priority for the Trump administration. And while the337administration ignores the conflict and its human consequences,338it chooses instead to provide weapons to the UAE--a country339that is arming the RSF, fueling the war, and facilitating a340genocide in Darfur. There is widespread and credible reporting341that the UAE continues to funnel arms to the RSF, even though342the UAE continues to deny this publicly. But instead of343pressuring the UAE to stop arming the RSF forces currently344carrying out a genocide, the Trump administration has chosen to345blow through a congressional hold by Ranking Member Meeks and346proceed with arms sales worth more than $1 billion.347    Just as I did under the Biden administration, I believe348that the United States needs to use its significant leverage349with the UAE to pressure them to finally end their support to350the RSF. That is why I, along with Ranking Member Meeks,351introduced Joint Resolutions of Disapproval last week to block352the administration's arms sales to the UAE. If the United353States wanted to, we could take tangible actions and make354sensible policy decisions that would help bring an end to the355war in Sudan and a sustainable peace agreement that ends356military rule, establish a civilian government, and provides a357clear roadmap to democratic elections. Instead, this358administration seems to be ignoring the problem and selling359weapons that are fueling genocide, war crimes, crimes against360humanity, and ethnic cleansing.361    The Sudanese people have suffered enough. It is time for362the United States and the international community to step up363and focus on bringing an end to this war so that the Sudanese364people can finally rebuild their country. Thank you, Chairman365Smith, and with that, I yield back.366    Mr. Smith. We are very pleased to welcome a distinguished367panel of experts to provide insights on the ongoing crisis in368Sudan and its far reaching consequences before us today. We369look forward to your recommendations in terms of policy. I do370believe the Secretary of State said both before the Senate and371before our Committee in answer to questions that he would372welcome a special envoy.373    We have a sense of the Congress resolution because it is374required by law to do just that. I know that special envoys and375the key as you mentioned a moment ago, Ken Isaacs, he has to376have--or she--direct access to the President. It has to be. It377can't go through a bureaucracy and it ends up on somewhere over378in Foggy Bottom.379    We got to have that kind of access. And I'll never forget380how well a person like Senator Danforth did who had the381gravitas and the ability to promote peace. Of course, peace382remains elusive, but he did an amazing job, I thought at the383time, and as did some of the others at this job.384    So I do think that's something that is evolving and will385happen. It should've happened yesterday. But it will happen, I386believe.387    So let me introduce first of all Ken Isaacs who's vice388president of Programs and Government Relations at Samaritan's389Purse. Mr. Isaacs brings over three decades of experience390responding some of the world's worst and most urgent391humanitarian crises from war zones to natural disasters. He's392also former director of USAID's Office of Foreign Disaster393Assistance.394    So he knows how it works on the inside of our government,395and I deeply appreciate that kind of expertise. He led relief396efforts in response, for example, to the Indian Ocean tsunami,397the Darfur crisis before. And I remember a whole group of us398responded to the tsunami.399    If it wasn't for the work that was done by disaster relief,400by our DART teams and everything else, so many more people401who've died even though it was a quick--I mean, I never saw402anything like it. And we had a bipartisan group who went to Sri403Lanka and other places. So thank you for that leadership. It's404extraordinary.405    We're going to hear from Cameron Hudson, Senior Fellow of406the Africa Program at the Center for Strategic and407International Studies. Mr. Hudson has served at the highest408levels of government, including as director for African affairs409at the White House National Security Council and as Chief of410Staff to multiple U.S. special envoys for Sudan. So what a411perch you have in order to say what needs to be done. And thank412you for that. He also led the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum's413Center for Prevention of Genocide.414    And then Ms. Kholood Khair, founder and director of415Confluence Advisory. Ms. Khair is also the host and co-producer416of Spotlight 249, Sudan's first English language political417debate show created to engage a new generation in political418discourse. I don't want to debate you, so thank you for being419here.420    And please take as much time as you--there's no clock. We421really need to hear what you've got to say. So I'd like to now422recognize Mr. Isaacs.423424                    STATEMENT OF KEN ISAACS425426    Mr. Isaacs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Ranking427Member Jacobs. This hearing has been long needed, and I'm428grateful that even in spite of a late night that it was able to429come together today. So I've been working in Sudan for 32430years.431    I've had the privilege to know all of its leaders and seen432the inner workings of much of as what has happened. When I look433at Sudan today and I just want to ask the question, is Sudan in434a crisis? Right now, it is near collapse on all levels:435political, security, economic, social, humanitarian, health,436food security, and infrastructure.437    This war has been going on since 2023, and it is438essentially between two armed groups: the Sudan Armed Forces439and a heavily armed militia group, the Rapid Support Forces,440which it's worth noting were previously the Janjaweed in441Darfur. And they were reformed under security reforms that in442the Khartoum process I think in 2015 was when they really443started upping their game. And that came with EU funding, and a444lot of people don't dial into that.445    But nevertheless, it is an experiment that didn't work446well. And today, they have come to the level where they have447now challenged the Sudan Armed Forces. And there's a horrible448civil war going on.449    The level of human suffering is horrible. Over 13 million450people are displaced. Four million have fled to other nations.451The death rate, as you said, is somewhere between 28 and452150,000 people. I think those numbers are probably an453understatement.454    Six hundred thirty-eight thousand are in Phase 5 IPC.455Technically, they're in famine. And we proved that through a456detailed statistical analysis which was submitted and reviewed457by the Famine Review Committee. There's an additional 8.1458million in Phase 4 food insecurity. That's near famine.459    It is has been--famine has been declared in both Darfur and460South Kordofan states. And there's 17 additional locations at461risk of falling into famine. And the total in all of that is46224.6 million people are highly food insecure.463    I have seen the effects of famine on individuals,464communities, and nations. And the one point that I would point465out about Sudan, it is totally a manmade failure. It is a466manmade famine.467    And last year what we started seeing in March--well,468actually it was, yes, last year--hundreds of thousands of469people were pouring into Kordofan State. And they were coming470into a State that had a 41 percent decrease in crop production.471But why were they coming there? They were coming there to get472away from the fighting that was going on in the RSF attacked473areas.474    I know this because we had staff there. We interviewed475them. It was a very exhaustive process. It took about 4 months.476And those people's lives were in immediate risk. I have some477photographs here. I don't know if it's attached to the paper.478But this is what the famine looks like. These are photographs479that the staff at Samaritan's Purse took, and this is rampant.480These are just two pages of photographs. I have hundreds of481them.482    The Janjaweed was formed around the early 2000's by483President Bashir as a way to control insurgency in Darfur. What484they are known for is chaos, brutality, and savagery, killing.485They're a very brutal force.486    And that DNA has been carried over to some extent in the487Rapid Support Forces today. Their mandate has always remained488the same, although their geographical assignments have been489reassigned from time to time. The current civil war has seen490the RSF position itself against this very State that created491it.492    I would concur with you on the command and control of the493RSF. I think that it is so shaky that even if they entered into494a peace agreement, it's not likely that they can enforce it,495even with the best intentions. And as you know, tribesmen have496come all the way across the Sahel and joined the fighting.497    And I don't see any structure for pay other than whatever498you can get is yours. So it's a very, very chaotic situation.499What we have noticed also over the last 2 years is that when500you look at maps of displaced people and refugees, they flow501out of the RSF areas and they're going to SPLM north area and502then they'll go into SAF areas when those areas are won back.503    In September of last year, I had an idea. We identified504this one area in western Kordofan. It's in the written505testimony. But the malnutrition rate in households was upwards506of 50 percent.507    And kids were dying. People were dying. They were starving508to death. We had people that had eaten grass to the point where509the raw grass couldn't be digested and it had ripped through510their organs and they were dying.511    We came up with the idea of air dropping food. And it was512that desperate of a situation. I had the opportunity to meet513with President Salva Kiir, and I asked him if he would talk to514General Burhan and ask for permission. He did 2 days later.515Burhan agreed, and that led to a protracted negotiation.516    It took us about three or 4 weeks. There were trips to Port517Sudan, trips to Juba. In the end, we had a written agreement518for 30 days to fly planes from Juba with food and air drop that519food in what's called Julud and Kadugli.520    It was challenging, but the program went well. At the end521of 30 days, the parties came together and we extended it 60522more days. And in the end, we air dropped 2,502 tons of food.523    I will have to say that humanitarian access was fully given524by the Sudan People's Liberation Movement-North and by the525Sudan Armed Forces. Everybody abided by the agreement. The526reason that I'm making this point is that agreements can be527made.528    They are open to humanitarian access and at the same time529have legitimate security concerns. When I was in Port Sudan,530the government of Sudan asked me if I would go look at El-531Gadarif which is a city over in the eastern part of Sudan.532Gadarif was an interesting situation in that the population is533normally 1.5 million.534    Displaced people fleeing the RSF fighting had come into the535area and the population was three million. The obstetric536hospital was full. We were seeing three to five patients in a537bed.538    So we set up an emergency field hospital there. This is539Samaritan's Purse and it was done with private money, not with540any government money. And we treated thousands of people, and541we were delivering a lot of babies and most of them by542caesarian section. I think we delivered about 506, and we had5439,149 patients and 562 babies.544    That work went very well. And I will have to say that545government of Sudan was very supportive. And it was difficult546getting visas and travel permit. And we're landing in Addis and547it's electronic.548    And a lot of the frustrations that they had honestly were549limited bandwidth. And I didn't realize that until I drove550through Port Sudan 1 day by the Office of Immigration. There551were over 2,000 people, I estimate, crammed into a little552parking lot waiting to get into the building. And I realized553they have stepped away from whatever their administrative554infrastructure was in Khartoum when they fled that city.555    So the security and the humanitarian situation in Sudan is556truly a crisis. And yes, an enormous amount of humanitarian557assistance is needed. But the key issue is we cannot dig558ourselves out of this hole or change this situation with559humanitarian assistance. The war must stop.560    And that's going to require persistent, intentional,561political involvement. And that is really what's needed is to562do that. You mentioned a special envoy. I second that notion563and I think it needs to be an envoy that has direct access to564the President of the United States to carry any gravitas.565    Why should America be involved in Sudan? An interesting566question, right? What's our interest there. I think that if our567foreign policy is built around governance of democracy, human568rights, and humanitarian assistance, we have a weak foreign569policy.570    We need to have foreign policy that's more forward looking.571And it needs to be transactional to the extent that we have572some business relations. We have other relations besides573wagging our finger and telling people what to do.574    When I met with General Burhan, he was very clear. He was575expressly clear. He wanted American businesses to come to576Sudan. He wanted American businesses to help on the Red Sea. He577wanted American businesses in his petroleum and his mineral578extraction industries. And he didn't pull any bones about it.579He just said it directly.580    When I look at the Red Sea and I think of real eState,581location, location, location, the Red Sea is not so wide. On582the other side are people that we're attacking right now,583Houthis, because they're destabilized in that whole region. I584think the argument could easily be made that anywhere on the585Red Sea is of strategic value.586    The Russians are setting up some kind of military base. The587Iranians have been there. This is north of Port Sudan. I don't588know what those details are. But if the United States isn't589involved, then it's a vacuum.590    I think that if we find a way to be involved and I think591that we should find a way to be involved, I think it would be592good. I have not seen sanctions work in North Korea, in Cuba,593in Iran. They're just not working that good.594    And I think that we need to find a new way to bring peace595to Sudan. And that is not going to happen if we don't have596serious diplomatic intervention. That's the end of my words.597    [The prepared statement of Mr. Isaacs follows:]598[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]599600    Mr. Smith. Mr. Hudson.601602                  STATEMENT OF CAMERON HUDSON603604    Mr. Hudson. Thank you. Chairman Smith, Ranking Member605Jacobs, and distinguished members of the Subcommittee on606Africa, thank you for having me participate in today's hearing.607It's an honor to be here, and I commend the subcommittee for608focusing on this urgent and evolving challenge. And in609particular, I want to thank both the chairman and the ranking610member for you long history on this issue and for doing what611you have done in recent months to shine a light on the drivers612of this conflict.613    The views I express today are my own and should not be614attributed to the Center for Strategic and International615Studies, my employer. And I would like to request that the full616text of my testimony be submitted for the record.617    Mr. Smith. Without objection, so ordered.618    Mr. Hudson. Thank you. As the title of today's hearing lays619bare the ongoing crisis in Sudan is indeed dire and is620worsening by the day. Now into its third year, we see in full621relief the consequences of a distracted, disjointed, and anemic622international response.623    We are faced with a conflict in which no corner of the624country is safe for civilians where battle lines now shift by625the hour, where every single neighboring country is playing a626role by both bearing the costs and reaping the rewards from627this conflict, where civilians are sacrificial pawns in a game628between generals and ambitious regional states, and where629horrific humanitarian conditions now threaten the lives of more630people that the fighting itself.631    Two months ago, Sudan's army retook the Presidential palace632in central Khartoum, signaling what many of us hoped would be a633turning point in this war by retaking control of the capital.634But in a war marked by momentum shifts, these army gains gave635been no sooner eroded and the very nature of this conflict636transformed by the introduction of more advanced weaponry.637Sudan is today an international arms bazaar, and the war itself638has fully transformed into a battle for influence among a host639of local and regional actors who seek economic, geopolitical,640and strategic gain in the context of this war.641    This fight is existential for both sides, and we are seeing642that both sides are prepared to do whatever it takes, ally643themselves with whomever it takes, and purchase weapons from644wherever they must in order to emerge victorious. To illustrate645this point, in a matter of days this month, Sudan army drones646purchased from Turkey bombed an RSF air base in Nyala, the647capital of South Darfur State, reportedly killing as many as648eight Emirati military officers along with mercenaries, local649press reports, from Colombia, Kenya, Ethiopia, and South Sudan.650This is in addition to mercenaries that have been documented as651fighting on the side of the RSF from Chad, Libya, Niger,652Burkina Faso, and Mali.653    The following day, the RSF countered this attack 1,200654kilometers--or sorry, miles away in Port Sudan using their own655long distance and kamikaze drones, drones from China656transferred via the UAE through a field hospital covering as a657military base in eastern Chad. This was a sophisticated aerial658operation requiring planning, coordination, and targeting659between forces based hundreds of miles apart on specific660targets inside a crowded city. These are skills that we know661the RSF does not alone possess and demonstrates that this war662is no longer a conventional ground campaign with predictable663battle lines.664    As troubling as the conflict and its humanitarian665consequences are inside the country, its suspension and666ultimate resolution are unlikely to come from the belligerents667themselves. The parties remain unwilling to engage each other668directly. And for a host of reasons, there is currently no669civilian leaders that have emerged with sufficient influence to670govern a new transition.671    Instead, we must directly engage the regional parties who672are supporting the two sides to advance their own political,673economic, and strategic ambitions. There is no single country674better placed to do this than the United States. And it isn't675too late to add Sudan to our agenda.676    However, rather than appointing a Sudan envoy whose efforts677are focused inside the country as some have suggested, we678should also acknowledge where the power to end the fighting679lies and realize that the Trump administration has already a680fully staffed Middle East envoy team in place that is well681positioned to take on this issue. As a first priority, the682Trump administration must engage its allies in the United Arab683Emirates about de-escalating and suspending their support to684the RSF. It strains credulity for the UAE to continue to deny685any role in this conflict.686    But make no mistake. The UAE are not alone in fueling this687fight. And while suspending their support is necessary, it is688not a sufficient condition for ending the war. That's why the689Trump team should initiate an honest conversation among all of690our allies across the region about the risks and rewards they691face in Sudan.692    Such a discussion would reveal that the United States, the693UAE, and other regional actors active in Sudan like Egypt,694Saudi Arabia, and Turkey harbor many of the same concerns and695share similar interests in Sudan. Avoiding the country becoming696a failed State, preventing Sudan from once again becoming a697nexus for international terrorism, arresting a further698degradation of Red Sea security, and avoiding a return of699Islamist leaders to a position of authority in the country. I700believe these are all shared concerned among regional allies.701    The people of Sudan deserve to see their democratic702aspirations supported and the promise of their popular703revolution fulfilled. But that conversation is unlikely to704succeed until the guns go silent and those fueling this war are705made to understand that an absolute military victory is simply706not possible. If Washington does not use its influence that it707has and initiate a de-escalatory dialog with the region708quickly, we will be left with little choice but to begin709preparing a containment strategy for the forces that will710surely lead to the breakup of Africa's third largest country.711Thank you very much.712    [The prepared statement of Mr. Hudson follows:]713    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]714715    Mr. Smith. Thank you so very much. Without objection, your716full statement as you asked, and same with Mr. Isaacs and Ms.717Khair.718    The floor is yours.719720                   STATEMENT OF KHOLOOD KHAIR721722    Ms. Khair. Thank you very much. Chairman Smith, Ranking723Member Jacobs, honorable members of the African Subcommittee,724good morning. I know you've all had a very long time, and your725presence here this morning is a testament to your commitment to726Sudan. And for that especially I thank you. I also like to727thank your staff for their efforts in keeping Sudan on this728committee's agenda.729    Congress has been a vital champion for the people of Sudan.730Throughout decades of Islamist rule under dictator Omar al731Bashir through the revolution and the transitional period and732was quick to condemn the 2001 coup that derailed the path to733democracy and put Sudan on a trajectory toward this devastating734war. In the interest of time, I'll be summarizing the points in735my statement already submitted to the committee and will focus736on humanitarian situation and atrocities.737    This hearing comes at a crucial time. I think we all738recognize that. Sudan is now the world's largest humanitarian,739hunger, displacement, and protection crisis all at once.740    This apocalyptic situation is caused by the counter741revolutionary war led by factions of Bashir's security regime,742now at war with each other. As the heirs of Bashir, the743Sudanese Armed Forces and the Rapid Support Forces are using744every tool in the Bashir playbook, including ethnic745mobilization, genocide, the use of chemical weapons, and the746policy of starvation as a weapon of war to capture the leaders747of Bashir's lucrative security State and position themselves to748decide the political and economic future of Sudan. They're749currently incentivized by their ambitions, their foreign750backers, and the domestic political constituencies, in751particular, the broad church of Sudan's Islamists to keep the752war going for as long as possible in the hopes of eroding the753calls for democracy, accountability, and civilian rule.754    All the while, humanitarian needs continue to mount, and755Sudan is potentially facing another failed agricultural season.756Famine, announced months ago, has not had the required757international or national response. This is in great part758because the Sudanese Armed Forces denies there even is a famine759and the Rapid Support Forces has systematically destroyed hard-760won harvests and looted food stocks.761    International community response has been criminally woeful762with the UN's humanitarian response only 13 percent funded, 1-7633. To make matters worse, the UN's inexplicable decision to764treat the Sudanese Armed Forces as a de facto authority has765made the entire international humanitarian system complicit in766the starvation campaign that the SAF continues to wage. The767deference has not paid off.768    Access blocks, movement restraints, holding up of permits,769all hallmarks of the Bashir playbook are all being used to770devastating effect during this war with only few exceptions.771The only bright spot has been the volunteered humanitarian772response rooms--emergency response rooms, excuse me, and other773mutual aid groups who are not only providing the lion's share774of the humanitarian response in terms of providing food,775medicine, safe spaces, and evacuations. But they're doing so776with far fewer resources and under immense repression from both777warring parties.778    The U.S. has been the largest humanitarian donor in Sudan,779and the generosity of the American people has quite literally780kept people and hope alive. With little clarity around what781U.S. foreign assistance will look like after September in782particular with the shuttering of USAID, there will be greater783crisis and potential cliff edge in terms of funding. The784lifesaving work of these responders could see clinics and785community kitchens, a lifeline for so many, close if no new or786alternative funding is secured.787    This war has also seen many atrocities committed by both788sides characterize much of the violence that we're seeing. The789RSF, an entity created by Bashir's regime to violently clear790people of land and to commit genocide has been doing exactly791that. In West Darfur alone, the RSF have committed acts of792genocide not once but twice against the Masalit ethnic group.793    The RSF have also run campaigns of terror, rape, sexual794slavery in Central Sudan. And recent testimony from the ground795points to the systematic targeting of men and boys based on796ethnic identity. Meanwhile, the Sudanese Armed Forces has been797enacting systematic campaigns of indiscriminate bombings, often798targeting civilians with reports the use barrel bombs of799summary executions. And the U.S. Government has concluded the800use of chemical weapons.801    Neither party has ever faced justice for doing all of this802before and that decades long impunity continues to directly803drive atrocities today. All of this has been facilitated by the804steady gold for weapons pipeline that has gone into hyper drive805since April 2023 with ever more sophisticated weapons appearing806in Sudan. Ground reporting from Darfur, especially Nyala,807capital of South Darfur, points to flights likely delivering808material to the RSF often going through Uganda, Kenya, and809Chad.810    Recent research and flight tracker information shows that811northern Somalia and Somaliland have also become transit812points. All flights appear to come from the United Arab813Emirates. Both frequency and volume of these has increased.814    The UAE's patronage of the RSF has drawn in Turkey, Qatar,815Saudi Arabia, and Egypt in support of the SAF with deepening816rifts between these middle powers manifesting in their support817to conflict parties in the greater Horn of Africa with huge818destabilizing potential. As Cameron mentioned, recently we saw819an escalation in the drone attacks on both Nyala and Port820Sudan. For me, the most important part of this is that we have821seen foreign actors directly fire upon each other with Turkish822Bayraktar drone operators firing on Nyala and the UAE firing823directly back on these Turkish Bayraktar drone operators and824injuring some of them.825    This shows a severe and very marked escalation in Sudan826following from last year's escalation between reportedly827Egyptian military actors and the UAE as well. So we're seeing828an escalation here with no signs of abating. Middle powers, in829particular the UAE, need to be pressured to do business830differently in Sudan as well as the border region.831    Ending this war requires political agreements in place832across all three levels of conflict: the local, the national,833and the regional and international. This must take place within834a framework that guides Sudan toward civilian governance, a835system that could finally discourage competition for power836through the gun. It is clear that this war represents something837of an end of an arch of history.838    Bashir's regime is consuming itself while trying to survive839this war of succession. In the meantime, many more RSFs are840being created. What comes next depends entirely on how this war841is resolved with a view toward justice, reform, and civilian842rule or more impunity and power sharing.843    What Sudan's history shows that there is no military844victory likely, and that given the right conditions, all wars,845even ones on this scale, end in a political agreement. So what846can be done? I'd like to highlight two recommendations.847    The first is for Congress to continue to put pressure on848the UAE as it continues to supply weapons to the RSF using849their genocidal campaigns. Other U.S. allies in the region such850as Turkey and Egypt are responsible for weapon sales to the851Sudanese Armed Forces should also be pressured to stop flooding852Sudan with weapons that are used in targeting civilians and853that myriad militias can use to wage their violent campaigns.854The U.S. must show diplomatic leadership instead of ceding855ground to its predatory allies in the Gulf.856    This will require, amongst other things, a high level White857House envoy to take the lead on Sudan to speak directly on858behalf of the President with Gulf leaders. That's the only kind859of level of envoy that they will respect, deconflicting their860interest and working with others to institute a holistic and861inclusive political process that can pave the way for viable862cease-fire talks.863    Second and especially in light of the humanitarian and864protection issues we've been discussing today, predictable and865sustained funding for lifesaving work to mutual aid groups is866imperative. Programming for youth groups in Sudan's war867affected regions is also key, lest the war be the only868industry. Supporting nonpartisan media is also critical,869particularly in efforts to counter hate speech.870    And finally, I'd like to ask this council to continue871championing the wishes of the civilians in Sudan who wish to872see a Sudan free from the scourge of war and with a political873system that stops the continuous destructive cycle of war,874death, disease, and conquest. Thank you for the opportunity to875brief you today. I look forward to your questions.876    [The prepared statement of Ms. Khair follows:]877    [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]878879    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much for your testimony and for880your leadership. I have a few questions, I'll yield to my881colleague, then might have some additional questions as well.882    Mr. Cameron--Hudson I should say, Cameron Hudson--your883point that we're now into the third year and we see the full884relief consequences of a distracted, disjointed, and anemic885international response. We're faced with a conflict where no886corner of the country is safe for civilians, where battle lines887now shift by the hour, where every single neighboring country888is playing a role. What can be done to put a tourniquet on?889    I mean, it's been 3 years. I mean, my distinguished890colleague, John James, who was our chairman of the committee in891the last Congress got a very important resolution passed, H.892Res. 1328. It was totally bipartisan.893    It condemned the RSF and SAF atrocities, called for an end894to the war which is obvious. It urged the U.S. to take895immediate steps at the U.N. Security Council to document the896atrocities, support community-based organizations, and support897tribunals to hold the RSF accountable. I'm not sure how much of898that was done by this Biden--or now Trump is there. But he's899only been there a few short months.900    We're hoping this hearing and the fact that our Secretary901of State who is tasked with so many jobs and is building out902his own bureaucracy as we meet here. He has a lot of people he903needs to get in place. But time is of the essence.904    So it's been 3 years since you pointed out where maybe more905could've been done. So I like when you said we need--there's a906desperate need of reinvigoration of a policy. And I think this907is the perfect time for all of us to do that.908    I know that when the Secretary of State testified before909the Senate and before the house, he was very clear that they910are talking to UAE. As a matter of fact, my senator, Senior911Senator from New Jersey, Senator Booker pointed out that UAE is912a vital ally to the U.S. And then he asked questions about what913we're doing.914    And Senator Rubio said, we have expressed to UAE and other915countries that they are turning it, Sudan, into a proxy war and916destabilizing the region that threatens to spill over and make917it worse. We obviously have to do more. And your very specific918recommendations on what more we need to be doing will be very919helpful.920    I think you've done some of it, maybe a lot of it in your921testimoneys which we'll study very carefully, all of us. But I922think this has to be the pivot point. If not, as you pointed923out, by the hour more people will die. More people will be924maimed and abused.925    And at some point, it becomes even harder to put it all926back together again because of the trauma and the PTSD and all927the rest that follows such atrocities. So Mr. Hudson, if you928want to start, and then I'll go to our two distinguished929colleagues.930    Mr. Hudson. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's obviously a tall931order what more can be done. I think where I have focused my932attention right now is as this war has evolved over the course933of 3 years and as I reflect back on some of the initiatives of934the Biden administration, right, I think we had a very935traditional approach with respect to a special envoy for Sudan936under the Biden administration.937    We've had over a dozen special envoys in the past 25 years938for Sudan. So this is not a new exercise for the United States.939But I think we have to think differently about how we approach940this diplomatically at this stage of the war.941    We saw a special envoy last year, last summer, initiate942what looked like a kind of traditional peace process or the943beginnings of a peace process, trying to bring the parties944around the table, trying to support civilian voices in the945diaspora as an alternative to military rule. And I think that's946a formula that we have used before in Sudan. But I don't think947that this conflict is right now ripe for that kind of948traditional resolution.949    I think we have to focus on the drivers of this conflict950outside of the country. There are a host of problems and a host951of drivers inside the country that go back decades. They go952back generations that need to be resolved around the role of953the State, governance, ethnicity, militarism, corruption, you954name it, right? And Kholood talked a little bit about that this955is the last gasp of the Bashir regime that are playing out in956this country right now.957    But I think we have to focus at least from a U.S.958perspective because we're talking to the U.S. Congress and959we're talking about recommendations to the U.S. Government. I960think the U.S. Government has a unique position to influence961the regional actors in a way that no one else does right now,962right? And I think that focusing on all of the states in the963region that are playing a role, they are benefiting from this.964    It is also costing them because when you look at the965refugee situation in places like Egypt, Ethiopia, South Sudan,966it is a burden--Chad, it is a burden on those countries. But967elites in those countries are also benefiting from smuggling968from this war. And so I think we can use our influence to focus969on these regional actors in ways that we haven't done before.970And I think that having worked on Sudan since the days of John971Danforth and all the way through more recent envoys.972    I can say that 10 years ago, 20 years ago, we would not973have been discussing the role of Egypt, of Saudi Arabia, of974UAE. They were not a part of the conversation a decade ago,975right? A decade ago, I traveled with President Bush to New976York.977    He convened an international summit around the CPA and978about the secession of South Sudan. He convened an979international summit as did President Obama about the genocide980in Darfur. There was a moment when the United States used its981position on the world stage to convene the international982community around the challenges that the world faced in Sudan.983    I think there is the opportunity for that kind of984leadership from the United States. I don't know that it needs985to be at the United Nations. I think that it could be within a986group of Arab states and regional states within Africa and the987Arab world that convene around this conversation.988    And as I said in my testimony, I think we have to989acknowledge that all of these countries actually have990legitimate concerns with the outcome of this war in Sudan. This991is their region. This is their backyard.992    I think that they are, in many ways, undertaking the wrong993set of policies to ensure that their interests are met. But I994think that rather than, as Ken said, scolding countries for995having these interests, I think we have to acknowledge that996they do have these interests and acknowledge that we actually997have shared interests in avoiding a worst case scenario in998Sudan. Yes, there will be things about the future governance of999the country that we don't agree on.1000    But I don't think that we can allow that to presuppose how1001we end this war, right? And I think we have to think about1002ending this war in stages. And I think we can all agree that we1003want a civilian democratic government to emerge from the ashes1004of this conflict. But until we can get to the ashes of this1005conflict, until we can end the fighting and silence the guns, I1006think it is premature to put out a resolution for some kind of1007civilian governance that is, I think, at least in the medium1008term, if not in the short term.1009    Mr. Smith. Ken.1010    Mr. Isaacs. I agree with Cameron. I think that you're1011looking at a society that has been ruled by militants. It's1012rule by militants right now. And anybody that comes to power is1013not going to have success if they don't have the respect and1014the ability to contain the military to some extent. So what1015this may mean is that there will have to be a transition from1016the type of governance that it has now to the type of1017governance that can be seen in the future. But the No. 1 thing1018I believe everyone should keep their eye on, end the war, find1019a way to stop the war.1020    I think bringing a regional confluence of people together1021to share their views, see what their interests are, and use our1022political clout, this is one of the things that I think is1023actually good about the development portfolio of USAID being1024moved into the State Department. These kind of things are1025uniquely political. And the State Department is going to be1026better prepared to handle those than outside negotiators. So1027end the war. End the war.1028    Mr. Smith. Ms. Khair, before you go to that, if you could1029also speak to you obviously pointed out, as did our other1030witnesses, this is the world's worst humanitarian crisis,1031world's worst hunger crisis. And you did point out and testify1032that the suffering is not incidental and that the starvation is1033being used as a weapon of war. And this isn't the first time.1034    Mengistu used it in Ethiopia with unbelievably telling1035effect. Even Aliyev with Nagorno-Karabakh used it in his1036genocide against the Armenians just recently. I convened a1037hearing right in this room where we had a prosecutor from the1038ICC say this is genocide.1039    They're using food as a weapon and wiping these people off1040the map either by moving out of Nagorno-Karabakh or killing1041them. And then now we're seeing it happen again, so your1042thoughts. And again, when Mr. Isaacs, you point out that there1043are 24.6 million people that are food insecure, 8.1 million in1044IPC Phase 5, technically famine, and 638,000, they went to 5,10458.1 million in Phase 4.1046    I mean, these numbers are just atrocious, and it didn't1047happen overnight. It's been growing over the last 3 years or1048maybe longer, but at least 3 years. But if you could speak to1049food as a weapon.1050    Ms. Khair. Yes, I'm happy to do that. I think one thing to1051note is that it's not the first time this has happened in Sudan1052either. Both Cameron and Mr. Isaacs will remember that this1053happened--the Sudanese Armed Forces and the government in1054Khartoum uses it very effectively in what is now South Sudan,1055in Darfur, and Blue Nile, the Nuba Mountains and other parts of1056Kordofan.1057    So this is a very tried and tested policy by the1058authorities in Sudan to effectively kill as many people for as1059little amount of money as possible. But it's cost money.1060Starvation does not.1061    There's another part of this which is the Sudanese Armed1062Forces in particular with their authorities in Port Sudan are1063using the limiting of aid as a way to assert a level of1064sovereignty, as a way to assert a level sort of governmentality1065in the eyes of the international community. It is by limiting1066access to different parts of the country. It is by limiting1067aid. It is by limiting visas. It is by limiting permission.1068    They're able to assert the sovereignty. They're not able to1069share the sovereignty in any other way, certainly not in terms1070of responsibility. The RSF, of course, have been doing what1071they've always done which is rape, pillage, and steal.1072    And so we have here in Sudan currently no entity that is1073actually wanting to keep people alive. Unfortunately, other1074than the groups I mentioned earlier, mutual aid groups and1075emergency response rooms. Now I think what is clear is that1076within the U.S. Government, actually, USAID understood this1077very well.1078    USAID has had decades of engagement in Sudan where it has1079come to the position where it's able to identify who the main1080actors are, particularly in terms of not just aid provision but1081also democratic transformation and other key areas that we're1082speaking of today. My fear is that with USAID being shuttered1083that knowledge throughout the decades will be lost. And any new1084team particularly in the State Department may not have that1085level of knowledge that is frankly needed to be able to read1086the scene properly.1087    I want to very quickly comment on what you said about the1088UAE and also a comment to what Cameron said. The idea that1089civilian rule is central to resolving the manifold issues in1090Sudan is not blue sky thinking. This is not about a kumbaya1091moment where we instill a civilian government for the sake of1092civilian government.1093    Having a civilian government in Sudan is the most practical1094way of changing the structure of the government such that it is1095not through the gun that you compete for power but maybe1096through the ballot box. It is not by picking up guns that you1097get invited to the mediation table but by having a political1098agenda. Unless that formula is shifted very sharply, we're1099going to continue to see the proliferation of armed groups.1100    Twenty, thirty years ago, Mr. Isaacs in particular will1101remember, there was only rebel movement in Sudan. But because1102of the way the peacemaking has been done, effectively rewarding1103those with the guns by asking them to come to the mediation1104table at the exclusion of civilian groups, it has created a1105negative incentive structure that allows only for the people to1106really be represented through carrying a gun and through having1107an armed movement rather than a civilian agenda. So I think we1108need to flip this on its head.1109    And actually, now that this war has taken so much scope1110because it has reached every part of the country, this is the1111time to try to right that formula when it comes to--and correct1112that formula when it comes to how peacemaking is done in Sudan.1113So sequencing is going to be very important. I don't believe1114we're going to get a cease-fire that lasts in any way unless we1115figure out what the political issues are going to be, unless we1116get a political solution.1117    And when it comes to the UAE but also Turkey, Saudi, Qatar,1118the UAE, these are all U.S. allies in the region. The U.S. is,1119as Cameron said earlier, uniquely positioned to engage. And I1120think unless that engagement happens, we're not going to get1121very far.1122    They do agree on many things. Unfortunately, one of the1123many things they agree on is they don't want to see civilian1124government in Sudan. But I agree with Cameron. They're going1125about this the wrong way. The civilian is the sine qua non of1126peace in Sudan. Without civilian rule, you're not going to get1127any kind of lasting peace in Sudan.1128    Mr. Smith. Just for the record, was the Biden1129administration as engaged in this as it should've been?1130    Ms. Khair. I think the short answer is no. But at least1131what we did see was some level of engagement on the subject.1132Unfortunately, we haven't seen that under this administration.1133But I am confident that we will be able to see at least some1134movement, and this hearing is a really good indication of that.1135    Mr. Smith. That's why we're having it. Thank you so very1136much. Ms. Jacobs.1137    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you all so much. First of all, many of1138you know we had a very late night or early morning or whatever1139you want to call it of voting here in the House. And a couple1140of my colleagues were unable to make it here but wanted to make1141sure their statements and questions were entered in the record.1142So Mr. Chairman, I ask unanimous consent to enter into the1143record the statements of Representative Jayapal and1144Representative Olszewski.1145    Mr. Smith. Without objection.1146    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. So thank you all for testifying on1147this incredibly important topic. And I commend the chairman for1148shining a light on the horrific war in Sudan that is not1149getting enough attention.1150    I want to first turn to the dire humanitarian situation and1151highlight the heroic work Sudanese civilians have been doing in1152the absence of a functional government. Ms. Khair, you1153highlighted in your testimony the important work of the1154emergency response rooms. You just talked a little bit about1155them now along with other mutual aid groups who have been1156providing emergency assistance and other essential services at1157a fraction of the cost of international NGO's.1158    Following Trump's draconian cuts to our foreign assistance,115980 percent of the 1,460 emergency food kitchens have been1160forced to close. Ms. Khair, can you please explain to the1161committee why these kitchens were forced to close and the1162practical impacts of these closures?1163    Ms. Khair. Thank you very much for the question. I think1164it's difficult to overState just how devastating the cuts were1165to these kitchens. And in part, it's because there hasn't been,1166unfortunately, enough of a shift internationally to1167understanding the value of these mutual aid groups.1168    They're still very much sort of orthodoxy when it comes to1169delivering humanitarian aid through large INGO's or the United1170Nations, which for reasons I mentioned earlier particularly1171when they chose to make or chose to consider one of the main1172belligerent group, the de facto authorities, they are1173effectively self-limiting and unable to deliver in the ways1174that they are. The emergency response rooms and other groups1175that arose out of the pro-democracy movement are uniquely1176places because they are in communities to make these1177deliveries. But they have for three things.1178    They've asked for recognition as humanitarian actors.1179They've asked for protection because they are being targeted by1180both warring parties. And they've asked for partnership when it1181comes to delivering aid.1182    Now under the previous administration, there was a1183recognition of the unique role that they played. And there was1184a lot of engagement with trying to make sure that they're1185funded. But since the aid have come in sort of since February,1186we have seen an immediate closure of many kitchens in Khartoum,1187particular in other parties of the country.1188    Because the way that these groups work is that they need1189little and often rather than huge sums of money as, for1190example, the U.N. might. And so when that sort of train of1191funding stops, of course it has an immediate effect. The1192difficulty now is though some of that has been switched back on1193and we have seen some aid be able to be delivered through these1194kitchens, the issue now is what happens after September.1195    The issue now is when it comes to these supply lines that1196are very urgently needed, especially in relation to healthcare1197and medicine, how do you maintain that when you don't know1198what's going to happen in the next few months. We're also1199seeing the supporting structure around these emergency response1200rooms, particularly in the INGO world and the U.N. also being1201impacted. Effectively, it's an industry-wide sort of sea change1202that is happening.1203    And that ecosystem is going to be massively impacted. And1204it is people on the ground who are going to feel that first and1205foremost. I'd also like to make very briefly another comment1206which is that a lot of young people in Sudan, young people make1207up the majority of Sudan.1208    So a lot of the majority of Sudan are invested in these1209groups, in these structures, as a way to basically sew back the1210fabric of this war. The social fabric of this war is being1211ripped apart by this war. If you take away that work, if you1212take away these structures, not only are you going to be1213impacting the ability for people to stay alive, but these1214groups, these young people may also find alternative ways to1215engage in this war.1216    And those may be, in fact, quite severe. They might be1217quite violent. They may be drawn toward other ways in which to1218engage in this war. So I think it's really imperative that1219these structures are maintained.1220    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. I agree with you, and we'll keep1221fighting to get that funding. Mr. Hudson, as you laid out in1222your testimony, there's overwhelming evidence that the UAE is1223supplying the RSF with weapons that they are using to carry1224genocide in the Darfur region. Would you agree that there is1225evidence to suggest the UAE has provided weapons to the RSF1226without the consent of the original supplier?1227    Mr. Hudson. I can't comment on the relationship that the1228UAE has China or what the end user agreement is. What I can say1229is that there is a U.N. arms embargo that exists that is nearly123020 years old on weapons transfers into Darfur. And I think it's1231safe to say that the UAE is in violation of that U.N. arms1232embargo.1233    The only other country whose weapons have reportedly been1234found in the possession of the RSF are weapons from the United1235States. These are reports from the ground. They have not been1236verified because we don't have access to those weapons.1237    But there are local reports and anecdotal reports of U.S.1238weapons having been found. I would encourage this Congress to1239do what it can to investigate the provenance of those weapons,1240to work with Sudanese authorities or other authorities on the1241ground to get the serial numbers so that we can trace how those1242weapons came to be in Darfur and in the possession of the RSF.1243    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. Very concerning that there might be1244U.S. weapons involved in this. Given the role that the UAE is1245actively playing in supplying weapons to an armed group1246carrying out a genocide in violation of a U.N. arms embargo on1247Darfur with the potential that U.S. weapons are themselves1248implicated, do you think it is appropriate for the U.S. to be1249selling weapons to the UAE while they continue to support the1250RSF?1251    Mr. Hudson. Again, I don't--I can't speak to our overall1252policy toward the UAE. What I would say is I'd frankly1253acknowledge what Secretary Rubio said yesterday and the day1254before which is we have a very full and complicated1255relationship with the UAE. We have a very full agenda with the1256UAE.1257    And I think we have seen from the Biden administration over1258the past few years a rather pugnacious approach to the UAE. It1259did not move the needle with the UAE. I don't know a1260threatening approach to the UAE frankly is even reasonable from1261this administration.1262    I think Secretary Rubio made it very clear. And we saw from1263the President's trip to the UAE just 10 days ago that there is1264a robust bilateral agenda. Will this administration decide to1265hold that bilateral agenda hostage to the UAE's support to1266Sudan or to the RSF? I doubt it.1267    And so that's why in my testimony I suggest, I think, a1268more realist approach. It might not be the preferred approach1269or the more optimistic approach. But it is, I think, a realist1270approach to acknowledge that all of these countries in the1271region, whatever role they are playing, they have an interest1272in what happens in Sudan.1273    They have an interest in the outcome. And to lay bare the1274facts of that and to not pretend that these countries are not1275playing a role and to not pretend that their interests in Sudan1276matter less than our interests. I think we need to acknowledge1277very openly and freely what these interests are and look for a1278way forward that is not necessarily punitive, that is not1279necessarily congratulatory, but that is honest and realistic.1280    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. And I think you're being a little1281diplomatic about the robust bilateral relationship when I think1282it's clear what President Trump is worried about is the 21283billion dollar Emirati investment in his crypto company and the1284Trump Tower that will be built in Dubai. But Ms. Khair, same1285question to you. Do you think it's appropriate for the U.S. to1286be selling weapons to the UAE while they continue to support1287the RSF?1288    Ms. Khair. I think Sudanese people should not be held1289hostage to any U.S. allies in the region, and that includes the1290United Arab Emirates. I think Cameron is right. I think that we1291are very aware. We have been very aware under the Biden1292administration but certainly now that this is bigger than1293Sudan.1294    For the United States, it is about Israel. It's about the1295Red Sea. It is about other corridors. And Sudan in many ways is1296a very small part of that calculation. What I would urge is1297that the United States as a government system, including1298Congress but also the administration, really look at the price1299of its current engagement with its allies in the region.1300    This is not just the United Arab Emirates, although that is1301the most acute case. But it's also the case with Egypt and1302Turkey as a NATO ally who are invested in this war. War is big1303business.1304    Egypt is making a lot of money from Sudan, both through the1305gold and through the gum arabic that is smuggled there. The1306United Arab Emirates, of course, is making a lot of money from1307the gold but also keeping options around Red Sea influence1308open. There are a lot of countries involved in Sudan.1309    I think of it much more as a globalized war rather than a1310civil war. And unless the United States as the key ally to all1311of these countries really sort of grapples with--and I agree1312with Cameron, honestly has an honest conversation with these1313countries about what their interests are, not just in Sudan.1314But we're seeing this play out in Somalia, in South Sudan, in1315Ethiopia. Unless there's an honest conversation about what this1316looks like, I don't think we're going to get very far in terms1317of actually making life easier and better for people in Sudan1318and elsewhere.1319    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. I think one of the important first1320steps is for the U.S. to actually use the leverage that we1321have. And as the biggest weapons seller to the UAE, I think1322that is very considerable leverage.1323    And so Chairman Smith and any of my colleagues who are1324watching, I'd encourage you all to join my bill, the Stand Up1325for Sudan Act. That would block arms to UAE until they stop1326arming RSF as well as the joint resolutions of disapproval that1327Ranking Member Meeks and I just introduced that would block1328over a billion dollars in arm sales to the UAE. And I have them1329here, Chairman Smith, if you'd like to take a look. Thank you,1330I yield back.1331    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much. And Mr. Isaacs, you spoke1332about the emergency field hospital that at the request of the1333Sudan Ministry of Health you set up for 87 days, staffed by 931334people, over 9,000 patients, delivered 562 babies. And you1335pointed out that's a neglected and vulnerable demographic,1336pregnant women and newborn children.1337    Have there been other requests made? I mean, I think that's1338amazing that they would--not surprising, though, because they1339know that you go in--Samaritan's Purse goes in and just gets1340the job done and helps people who are most at risk, sick,1341disabled. Or in this case, the obstetric hospital you said had1342three to five women in each bed. I mean, that is overcrowding1343on--like, few of us can imagine. Yes, go ahead.1344    Mr. Isaacs. So that particular hospital, the community1345population returned to normal as people started returning to1346safe areas. But I was with the president of our organization,1347Franklin Graham. We met with General Burhan.1348    It was very interesting. General Burhan asked us, would we1349go to Khartoum and build a hospital? He's talking about a brick1350and mortar real hospital. And Franklin said, we would if you'd1351let it be a Christian hospital. And Burhan said, yes, that1352would be fine.1353    And so internally, that is something that we're planning on1354doing. We're waiting for the security circumstance to allow it.1355But they have indicated to us that they will give us1356humanitarian access, where we need to go, where we want to go.1357And we look forward to doing more in the Sudan area.1358    Mr. Smith. Let me ask you. You said in March, you met1359personally with the delegation in Sudan hosted by General1360Burhan. He made it expressly clear that he desired American1361involvement in his country.1362    And I'm wondering for American business, diplomats, it's1363one thing. They eat, sleep, and breathe conflict and trying to1364mitigate conflict and problems. But businesses want to go in1365and sell the product or whatever. Was he talking about those1366kinds of opportunities too and others not realize that so long1367as there's this terrible conflict, it's almost impossible to1368have any kind of foreign investment?1369    Mr. Isaacs. My perception and interpretation of what he was1370saying at that time was expressing a deeply rooted desire to1371see the American country get involved in his country, whether1372that involved business, whether that involved politics, whether1373that involved military, not from the perspective of fighting1374but military from the perspective of utilizing the port up1375north. But my sense was that he sees great advantage in1376American involvement. And he would like to see that kind of1377influence.1378    In fact, we talked about when Chevron Oil left the country.1379I think it was probably around 1994, 1992. And there was some1380reflection on what would Sudan have been like today had that1381not happen.1382    So I think he's very open. And specifically he said I don't1383want to buy things from the Russians and I don't want to buy1384things from Iran. I'd like to do business with America, but1385America won't do business with me.1386    Mr. Smith. Thank you. How would you assess that as an1387opportunity?1388    Mr. Isaacs. Say it again.1389    Mr. Smith. That is an opportunity.1390    Mr. Isaacs. Oh, I think it's a clear opportunity. And I1391have to tell you having worked in Sudan for so long, I entered1392in South Sudan. Many times, I have been in caves, under rocks,1393and running from bombs coming from Sudan Armed Forces.1394    I told General Burhan this. I have not been a fan of Sudan1395Armed Forces. I have been a responder to the carnage that has1396come about as an act of the war. When I look at the situation1397today and what's going on, I think the country needs stability.1398It needs security.1399    And I only see one entity there right now until there's a1400transitionary period where there can be a civilian led1401government. And that's what I would ultimately advocate for.1402And I just don't see the command and control in the RSF for1403that to happen. I see the command and control for SAF to1404happen.1405    And another interesting point that I will share with you is1406that the animosity coming from individual Sudanese citizens1407toward the RSF is enormous. The people that have been killed,1408the way that they were killed, the things that were stolen, the1409damage that has been done, I've never quite seen that kind of1410hardness of heart. And I just find it very hard to imagine the1411RSF would be able to add a lot of value at this point after1412what's happened.1413    Mr. Smith. Let me ask you how would you assess the World1414Food Programs and other U.N. major organizations on the ground1415in Sudan today?1416    Mr. Isaacs. Well, that's an interesting subject. I think1417all of the humanitarian actors on the ground could do more.1418There could be improvements in anybody's organizational1419structure.1420    What I do know is that when we had the situation in1421Kordofan State in South Kordofan and West Kordofan, we engaged1422directly with the parties, negotiated the air bridge. And then1423we had other agencies coming to us saying, how did you get that1424air bridge? Can we use your air bridge? How did you do that?1425    And we kept it as a muffled--we didn't talk about it1426publicly. But it was highly successful. So I think in the1427future when I need access into an area, I'll probably attempt1428to negotiate it on my own.1429    Mr. Smith. Did any of you assess the risks that the1430humanitarian aid workers take by operating in theater? I1431remember a couple visits with Salva Kiir in Juba when his own1432forces made life miserable for humanitarian aid workers. Not1433only did some of his private military go--and these are the1434people that guard him--go and raid humanitarian stockpiles. But1435they also put people at grave risk. How big of a problem is1436that right now, especially with all the bloodletting that is1437going on?1438    Mr. Isaacs. I would say, everybody will have their1439opinions. But I would say generally speaking errant and1440unacceptable behavior frequently happens in war zones. That's1441just part of the deal.1442    You hope that doesn't happen. But the days of you have a1443white flag and you're protected because you're a humanitarian1444group, those days are gone. And I think practical down to earth1445negotiations with armed actors is required to gain access.1446    And then you have to have trust in there. And that trust, I1447can tell you in Sudanese society, comes from building1448relationships. So you would think as a Christian you're not1449going to make any progress in Sudan, it's the Islamic Republic1450of Sudan.1451    But that's not at all what I have found. What I have found1452is that by demonstrating integrity, doing what I say I'll do,1453not surprising them, having private conversations behind doors,1454and speaking your mind has built trust. And we enjoy good1455relationships there today with people on all sides of the1456conflict.1457    Mr. Smith. Any of you want to respond to this? And the1458Sudanese authorities, why haven't they handed Bashir and other1459former officials wanted by the ICC over to the court? And we1460all recall that even when Bashir was planning on going to1461Turkey, Erdogan made it very clear that he would not honor the1462request which the EU was saying get him to the Hague for1463prosecution and then he didn't go.1464    China does the exact same thing in terms of inability to in1465any way enforce the indictment by bringing him to the Hague.1466But why has no one else? I mean, why? Do we know?1467    Mr. Hudson. I asked this very question of General Burhan in1468December. And I can tell you what he told me which was--I1469didn't accept the answer. But his response was that they wanted1470to try General Bashir in Sudan, that they wanted local justice.1471    I made the point to him, and this was in the context of a1472conversation about the return of Islamist in the country, his1473reliance to some degree on Islamist militias to aid the SAF1474against the RSF and the concerning trend that I saw at the time1475and continue to see today that Islamists associated with the1476former regime would like to see their own return to power1477eventually and see it as a way back to power, kind of1478piggybacking on the army and becoming a useful instrument of1479the army. And so my demonstration--my request to him was to1480say, if you truly want to distance yourself from the former1481regime, if you truly want to demonstrate to the international1482community as you have said privately and publicly that you1483don't want to see the former regime return to power and that1484you want to put distance between the Army and those elements1485that the best way to do that to demonstrate to the world would1486be to turn President Bashir over to the ICC.1487    And that would send a very clear signal. And his response1488was, well, we would prefer to try him at home. And I think1489reading between the lines, my interpretation of that was that1490General Burhan is in a very, very difficult position trying to1491consolidate his own power in the country, the power of the army1492in the country.1493    And to a degree, he is responsive to and in need of support1494from those former regime elements. They are a distinct group,1495minority group but a distinct and powerful group in the1496country. And if he alienates them right now, then he risks1497seeing the fracturing of his own army. And so he is in a very1498difficult position, I think, with respect to Islamists. And1499that's why he has chosen not to kind of poke the bear and turn1500President Bashir over to the ICC.1501    Mr. Smith. Yes, please. Of course.1502    Ms. Khair. Thank you. I think the obvious answer is1503precedent. Burhan does not want to set a precedent as a head of1504State which is he says that's what he is, would be sent to the1505ICC less that same thing happen to him in due course.1506    The other thing is that there was an opportunity for Burhan1507under the transitional period of 2019 to 2021 to try President1508Bashir. There was a sort of kangaroo court. I think they sort1509of had him indicted on financial charges rather than genocide1510and all the other serious charges which is basically the same1511as getting Al Capone on tax evasion.1512    And what we're seeing here is there's no serious commitment1513to justice and accountability in Sudan in all levels, including1514from Burhan. The reliance on jihad groups, the reliance on the1515Islamist groups means that the decisions are not always resting1516solely with Burhan. And so I would push back a bit against what1517Mr. Isaacs is saying which is that Burhan will tell any1518interlocutor he faces what they want to hear to a great deal of1519extent.1520    It's good to see that he's giving access to Samaritan's1521Purse. It's good to see that he's making these rhetorical1522commitments to supporting the work of Samaritan's Purse. And he1523says that he wants to get American businesses into the country,1524et cetera.1525    I am sure that he's probably saying the same thing to the1526Russians. I am sure he's probably saying the same thing to the1527Iranians. This is how he keeps himself alive.1528    President Bashir at the time did exactly the same thing.1529This is the same playbook playing out. I wouldn't put that much1530stock in it. But also the binary is not helpful, this binary1531between SAF and the RSF.1532    We have to remember where these came from, Burhan and1533Hemeti. Twenty years ago, we're fighting hand in fisted glove1534against the people of Darfur. They were committing genocide1535together.1536    This is not a case of two entirely distinct groups. There1537is a difference here without much distinction. And I think it1538would be very remiss of us not to bear that in mind. The RSF is1539today's enemy for the Sudanese Armed Forces.1540    In the meantime, they are creating many RSFs through, for1541example, the Al-Bara' ibn Malik Brigade, the Jihadist Brigade,1542through, for example, the Sudan Shield group which is becoming1543stronger. They recently announced that they've grown in number.1544They have access to sophisticated weaponry.1545    We're seeing the same thing that happened with the RSF play1546out there, in essence an ethnic militia as well. So there is an1547incentive here for Sudan Armed Forces to keep this playbook1548going because it allows them to justify military rule which is1549in the end their main objective. They want to stay in power.1550    If there is peace in Sudan, why would you need a military1551government. So of course, you keep a war going. You couldn't1552justify your presence in government. WFP very quickly because I1553do want to make sure I speak about this.1554    WFP has been very slow to evolve to the conditions on the1555ground. I'm very glad that Samaritan's Purse has been able to1556negotiate this access. I would love to see that sort of1557engagement being made available to other international actors.1558    It would be great to see Samaritan's Purse, for example,1559work with WFP which is one of the few organizations despite1560their many failures to be able to buildup the scale that is1561required to respond to the humanitarian situation. So I think1562here we need to see less competition between different1563humanitarian deliverers and actually a lot more cooperation.1564Thank you.1565    Mr. Smith. Thank you. Throw out a few other questions and1566then any other questions that Ms. Jacobs might have. When you1567talk, Mr. Hudson, about the issue of doing a local court, ICC1568does not have a stellar track record of getting its man, even1569thought Bashir was in the crosshairs and probably will never go1570to the Hague.1571    But we know from hybrid court in Rwanda, especially the1572court for Sierra Leone and Yugoslavia, Charles Taylor never1573thought that he's get 50 years for--and we've had David Crane1574testify several times and Alan White as well who are so1575instrumental in that and for others who committed these1576horrific crimes. Is that something that we should be talking1577about, a tribunal for--I mean, if you leave it to the local,1578just let their own justice system handle it. Good luck with1579that.1580    I wouldn't want to be a juror on that frankly because it1581would be very dangerous to your health. So that's one question.1582Then if any of you would like to speak as to the relationship1583to Iran and China. What is China doing?1584    Russia probably is more preoccupied with Ukraine sadly. But1585Russia, I'm sure, does have some interest, like, getting access1586to the port more. But China we know is ubiquitous in the1587exploitation throughout Africa.1588    They're everywhere, and they're exploiting Africa1589everywhere. So how are they moving in on this? And finally, on1590gold, we had a hearing. And as a matter of fact, a former1591staffer for our subcommittee, I hired him, Thierry Dongala, has1592done amazing work on proving the relationship and fighting1593against the precious metal of gold and how it funds the1594procurement of weapons and all the other things that kill1595people.1596    And so it's an area where we need to step up. We also1597focused on at that hearing how all of the--frankly, all of1598the--what do you call it--cobalt for EVs is coming out of the1599DR Congo through child labor and slave labor, 200,000 adults,1600upwards of 40,000, some say 25 to 40,000 children, all goes to1601Xinjiang in China. Then it ends up into EVs.1602    And 25 percent of all the vehicles in the EU now that are1603EVs are coming from China on the backs of these little1604children. So I mean, it's so lucrative for China to be here.1605But when you throw in the gold part, maybe you can speak to1606that.1607    And I do have one other one, and that's on the refuge1608flows. Chad has nearly a million refugees. I mean, it's a1609refugee--it's just horrible what has happened. There's so many1610people are either IDPs or refugees.1611    And that does not help the countries that are trying to1612help these people. It has an negative impact there. If you want1613to just speak to--I mean, all the more reasons why there needs1614to be an absolute concerted effort, as you said, Mr. Isaacs,1615end this war, end the war, but also step up the humanitarian1616side of it as well.1617    Mr. Isaacs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So I'll come back to1618what I said. The war needs to be ended. War--excuse me. The1619gold mining is very lucrative. And I think the RSF after they1620were sort of officially enshrined, they had a gold mine.1621    They sold it to the government. I believe that they got1622that back. But the smuggling of gold that is going out of the1623country I believe is enormous. I think that the Russians are1624deeply involved in it.1625    I think that the RSF is deeply involved in it. And I1626understand that's the basis of the business empire that Hemeti1627has built is really around the gold. And my contacts tell me1628that gold is going through Dubai.1629    The issue of China and what they're exploiting, they're1630very ubiquitous everywhere. And I had the opportunity in 20061631to go to Shanghai and Beijing with CSIS for a 2-week--and we1632just wanted to know what is China's African development policy.1633What we found is they don't have one.1634    What they have are Chinese national interest. But there was1635one comment that was made at the last day in Shanghai by a very1636senior diplomat. He said, we have 800 million people with your1637equivalent of a high school education and they make less than1638one dollar a day. We're going to send them out all over the1639world.1640    So when you go into a place, it doesn't matter where you go1641in China. You go up to Port Sudan--or not China but anywhere.1642There's Chinese people doing trade on the sidewalk. There's1643Chinese people going into the petroleum offices.1644    So China has a way to assert soft power through1645transactional processes that gives them enormous diplomatic1646influence. And I don't think that the U.S. has a way--that's1647not a level playing field for us. We can't do that for whatever1648reasons.1649    And I think that that needs to be explored. I'm not a1650proponent for exploitative transactional diplomacy. But1651transactions and diplomacies I think have to go hand in hand1652with us. And I think that we would be better positioned to1653effect change and bring the war about to an end. And so that's1654probably enough that I'll say about that right now.1655    Mr. Smith. Mr. Hudson or Ms. Khair.1656    Mr. Hudson. So there are a lot of questions there. So let1657me just sort of hopscotch over a few of them. With respect to1658courts, I mean, I think we're in the situation we are in Sudan1659right now to some degree because justice has never been1660delivered for any of the crimes that have been visited upon the1661people of Sudan.1662    We've been talking about justice in Sudan for decades. I1663fear that the air that you refer back to of international1664tribunals to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars in1665U.S. and U.N. assessed dues, I fear that day is behind us in1666the United States. I fear it also because we have lost our1667Office of Global Criminal Justice at the State Department that1668was spearheading these kinds of initiatives and shining a light1669on these kinds of institutions.1670    And I think that the State institutions of Sudan have1671broken down. There are no courts in Sudan right now. So it's1672not realistic to think that anytime some there will be any kind1673of justice delivered either internationally or locally.1674    With respect to Iran, I want to underscore we don't, I1675think, understand the full extent of the relationship with Iran1676and Sudan right now. And I think that both the army and the1677Iranians take advantage of this idea that--or seek advantage1678from this idea that neither of them are isolated1679diplomatically. So there is value in having that relationship1680just to say that we have this relationship.1681    The Iranians take value in having a relationship in the Red1682Sea and the potential on the horizon for potentially having a1683base there. I've heard in candid moments from senior leadership1684in Sudan that they don't get anything for free from the1685Iranians. And they don't get a friends and family discount on1686weapons from the Iranians, that the Iranians play up their role1687in Sudan to be greater than it is for their own domestic1688political purposes and international geostrategic interests.1689    So I think to some degree both sides are overstating the1690degree that Iran is a factor. I'm not saying it is not a1691factor. But I don't know that it is playing a determinative1692role in this conflict.1693    It's certainly a factor. I think China we have seen much1694more of a factor in terms of the weapons that are being used on1695both sides of the conflict are largely Chinese weapons. The1696Chinese have a diplomatic presence in Port Sudan.1697    There are only a handful of countries that have a permanent1698diplomatic presence in Port Sudan. China is one. So they have1699been able to play a diplomatic role. They have protected1700Sudanese interests at the United Nations. And they are1701benefiting--they're profiting from the arm sales that they have1702engaged in.1703    Mr. Smith. Mr. Hudson, do you know what kinds of weapons,1704AK-47s?1705    Mr. Hudson. There have been a whole host of light arms,1706more heavy material, and now more recently Chinese drones that1707have been active in the conflict primarily on the side of the1708RSF, the Chinese drones. With respect to the gold trade, I1709think there's been a lot of reporting on this, public reporting1710on the extent of the gold trade. I think the only fact that I1711think is needed is to say that Sudan produced more gold last1712year in 2024 than it did before the war started, right?1713    So we have seen almost a doubling of Sudan's official gold1714exports since the war began, right? This is what is being1715reported officially, right? Those numbers are in the range of 31716billion dollars a year.1717    We know that the RSF controls its own gold mines in South1718Darfur, in North Darfur. We know that in the eastern part of1719the country, the army is controlling gold mines there. They are1720doing business in those gold mines with Russia and with the1721UAE.1722    The UAE is profiting on both sides of this conflict because1723all gold in the country is funneling, as Ken said, back to1724Dubai which is, again, I think, why I'm also skeptical of1725simply turning off the spigot from the UAE. The RSF is gaining1726and earning enough money that if it did not have privileged1727access to Emirati largesse, it could go onto the black market.1728With 2 billion dollars, it can go and buy any weapons that it1729needs to sustain this war.1730    So we have to think, I think, really holistically about not1731just the kind of the drivers and the political support that the1732RSF is getting from outside. But we also have to think about1733turning off the funding that is coming from not just gold but1734from gum arabic, from smuggling, from all of the rest, all in1735there.1736    Ms. Khair. Thank you. I think a lot has been covered. So1737let me briefly just underscore a few points. In terms of local1738costs, there's currently not sort of government functionality1739at any level in Sudan. That's become very clear.1740    And so expecting there to be any kind of fully fledged1741justice mechanism, especially because that's always been1742deferred, particularly at a moment like this without1743infrastructure as I think it's impossible really. It's not just1744Bashir. There are other ICC indictees like Ahamd Harun who has1745recently been made the head of one faction of Bashir's former1746party, the National Congress Party.1747    So these characters are very much alive. They're very much1748engaged in the politics in Sudan. They're being protected by1749the Sudanese Armed Forces. And wherever they are in the1750country, we hear reports of them being moved around, et cetera.1751    But there is no desire. There's no sort of will here, I1752think, on the Sudanese Armed Forces to see any of these1753characters face justice. They are too valuable currently for1754them in terms of, one, the constituency with the Islamists, and1755two, the connections that some of them have, two international1756actors, for example, the Iranians and Chinese and Malaysians1757and Turks and others.1758    Just very briefly on the gold. A lot of the gold, it's1759exactly as you describe, Chairman Smith, what is happening in1760DRC. Most of the gold in Sudan is mined artisanally. That is on1761the ground mostly by very vulnerable people.1762    It is mined and then taken to the United Arab Emirates,1763chiefly where the world's gold markets are and sold for large1764amounts of money. And so there are sort of many injustices that1765are happening here, not just because this gold is used then to1766buy weapons, to bomb these very people, these very vulnerable1767people that are mining it in the first place because the1768working conditions for these people are horrendous. And the1769fact that the gold has gone up only indicates that the working1770conditions have become worse for these people.1771    And longer the war continues, the more the economy will be1772entrenched and the more the conditions for these people will1773become more desperate. So absolutely something that requires1774attention. There have been calls, for example, to set up sort1775of a fund very much like what the Europeans have Ukraine where1776a lot of the money that is being made out of gold enters into a1777trust fund that is then used to potentially rehabilitate and1778reconstruct Sudan later on.1779    A lot more thinking needs to be done about how to do that.1780If some of these flows of money can be arrested and put into1781this fund for later use, that would be very, very useful. In1782terms of the refugee flows, I want to make sure we discuss1783this.1784    The displacement has been--the world's largest displacement1785crisis is in Sudan, not just internally where there are 111786million internally displaced but also, of course, externally in1787Egypt, in Chad, in South Sudan. Effectively, countries around1788Sudan that are themselves quite vulnerable and facing a lot of1789economic shocks. We're not seeing any kind of sort of1790humanitarian support to these groups that is very sufficient.1791    So for example, in Ethiopia, we're not seeing UNHCR, the1792UN's humanitarian--sorry, refugee organization really respond1793to the refugees there. We're not seeing the same by UNHCR in1794Egypt. And the reason for that is the governments of Ethiopia1795and Egypt.1796    They're not granting the United Nations and UNHCR the1797ability to adequately respond to the refugee crisis. Egypt is1798making a lot of money from Sudanese people who re in Egypt,1799spending, of course, a lot of money on rent, on food, et1800cetera. And you've seen Egypt sort of send them back to Sudan1801particularly as Sudanese armed forces has been making gains1802very much against international recognized refugee norms of1803non-reform.1804    So we need to see a lot more protections for refugees in1805the region. In Chad in particular, we're seeing that the U.N.1806has not been able to fully support people there. And those1807people in particular are fleeing genocide. They're not just1808fleeing the war as people in other countries are. So I think an1809extra focus on this from the United States is absolutely1810required. Thank you.1811    Mr. Smith. Thank you. Ms. Jacobs.1812    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. And I actually want to build on the1813line of questioning Chairman Smith was asking. I am very1814focused on the UAE's role here because I think that it is1815large.1816    But of course, the UAE is not the only outside actor that1817is supporting belligerence in this conflict in order to advance1818their own objectives. You all have talked about some already,1819right? We've got Chad serving as a staging area for weapons and1820shipments from the UAE.1821    We've got Kenya hosting meetings of RSF leaders during1822which they've declared the establishment of a parallel1823government in Sudan. Obviously, we have Russia siding with SAF.1824We've got Egypt continuing to provide military assistance to1825SAF.1826    Reports suggest that RSF smuggles gold from Darfur through1827South Sudan, Uganda, and Kenya to help finance its operations.1828We've talked about the role of Iran, the role of China, just a1829small sample. Ms. Khair, can you describe how the influence of1830outside actors has prolonged the conflict in Sudan and1831exacerbated its consequences for the Sudanese people?1832    Ms. Khair. Thank you for the question. I think it's1833impossible to believe that this war would've gotten to the1834State that it has, the level of destruction and devastation, if1835not for the role of outside actors. Sudan has been extremely1836vulnerable to the predations of not just its neighbors but also1837Gulf countries because it has never been able to set up a1838political system internally that is able to protect Sudan1839against this vulnerability.1840    And so we're going to see unfortunately these countries1841pick at the carcass that is Sudan at the moment. And even as1842things get worse, they're not motivated by the humanitarian1843situation. They're not motivated by the risks of atrocities,1844genocide, et cetera.1845    And so there's actually no sort of potential end. There's1846no turning point potentially at which these countries pull back1847from the support that they're giving. And they're giving very1848high tech weapons, what started off as very sort of reasonably1849low tech war has suddenly become with the use of drone warfare1850from many of these countries, Turkey, China, Iran, and of1851course the transit countries that facilitate this.1852    This is becoming very quickly a very technologically1853advanced war which means that we're going to see sort of the1854impact on civilians go through the roof. For example,1855previously a lot of civilians were fleeing war at the front1856lines of the battlefield. Today, RSF drones hitting key1857infrastructure, civilian infrastructure, for example, water1858stations, power plants, ports, et cetera, means that actually1859just any sort of normalcy and sort of human normalcy and normal1860life that is able to exist is going to be impacted which means,1861A, no place is geographically safe, and B, that actually it's1862going to be very difficult to eke out any kind of normalcy, any1863kind of normal existence for a lot of people.1864    So the scale of this war would not be what it was or what1865it is without, I think, the engagement of these countries. But1866what we have to understand is that war is--we all know this1867very well. War is big business. And so all of these countries1868that you have mentioned are very much economically invested in1869this war. And so unless the formula has changed, unless this1870war becomes actually more of a liability than it is a source of1871revenue, we're not, I think, going to see any of these1872countries, as I say, motivated by the humanitarian situations1873enough to pull back.1874    Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. Thank you all again for testifying1875and for everything you're doing for the people of Sudan. Mr.1876Chairman, I yield back.1877    Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Ms. Jacobs. We're just1878about finished, but I do want thank you so very much for your1879just expert testimony. It gives us all the guidance on both1880sides of the aisle as to what we need to be doing.1881    We want to play a role, hopefully a very constructive one.1882So thank you. I can't thank you enough. Just let me ask you if1883I could, Ms. Khair, is Ethiopia penalizing Sudanese refugees1884because of the territorial dispute over Al-Fashaga?1885    Ms. Khair. So I think it is broader than that. The1886Ethiopian authorities or the Ethiopian government has been, as1887you say, in dispute over the Al-Fashaga territory. This has1888been going on for decades.1889    There was something of a gentleman's agreement between1890Meles Zenawi and Omar al-Bashir in the past that meant that Al-1891Fashaga was sort of left unaddressed for the most part. That1892came to a head when there were changes in government in both1893Sudan and Ethiopia. Those tensions seem to have eased somewhat.1894    But I think the issue is still on the table. But Sudan1895doesn't have these territorial disputes just with Ethiopia. It1896has them with South Sudan and the Abyei region. It has them, of1897course, with Egypt as well and Halayeb-Shalateen.1898    There needs to be a formula for how to address these1899issues, particularly for countries around Sudan who get1900militarily involved in Sudan's conflict, including, of course,1901South Sudan to a great degree and also Egypt. So we need to--1902the resolution to Sudan's war is not just going to be about1903engaging internal actors but also Sudan's neighbors. I think1904fortunately we have seen a de-escalation in tensions between1905particularly the Sudanese Armed Forces and the government in1906Ethiopia.1907    But depending on how things go between Ethiopia and Eritrea1908and tensions there and the likelihood as we're seeing of a1909ratcheting up of tensions in potentially armed conflict,1910Ethiopia and Eritrea may be the first countries to be sort of1911pulled into the war in Sudan and vice versa, that Sudanese1912communities, particularly those on the border regions, will be1913pulled into the conflict between Ethiopia and Eritrea. In fact,1914we're already seeing this during the Tigray conflict. We1915already saw lots of assistance, shall we say, from the Sudanese1916authorities in that war.1917    Likewise, we're seeing a lot of Eritrean and Ethiopian1918engagement in the war in Sudan currently, particularly by the1919Eritreans. Recently, we saw their trained navy dock in Port1920Sudan. So what we're seeing here is the overspill that many of1921us, including Cameron and I, have been warning about since the1922beginning of the war is already happening. It's already1923unfolding. And unless these issues around contested territory1924but also regional interest of neighboring countries are dealt1925with, I don't think we're going to be able to sort of have a1926comprehensive resolution to this war.1927    Mr. Smith. Just a little bit of understanding about why the1928refugees in Egypt, why Egypt would not want the UNHCR. Is it1929because they're welcoming them? I mean, Karen Bass who used to1930be my ranking member, when she chair, I was her ranking member,1931we made a trip and we met with President Museveni.1932    And we went to a refugee camp that it was extraordinary how1933the local Ugandan people were welcoming the South Sudanese1934people with such concern and love. And he had it too. It was1935just amazing.1936    And both of us were like our eyes were wide open about this1937is a good neighborly policy. Is that what Egypt is doing? Or is1938it something else?1939    Ms. Khair. That's not my understanding, no. Egypt and Sudan1940have a very contentious relationship, mostly because Egypt sees1941Sudan----1942    Mr. Smith. The people too? I mean, not just----1943    Ms. Khair. Yes, so Egypt sees Sudan as an extension of its1944southern border, believes that it should be very much involved1945in deciding what the government in Sudan looks like. This is1946why they continue to support the Sudanese Armed Forces. They1947have done, let's say, for almost 70 years.1948    There are issues with racism. The Sudanese people, a face1949in Egypt particularly previously that the South Sudanese when1950they were Cairo, particularly in large numbers during the1951north-south conflict 20 years ago. Darfur is as well who have1952been displaced to Egypt have faced severe racism, but so have1953Sudanese of all types.1954    There's also rhetoric within Egypt similar to what we saw1955with the Syrians that the economic issues that Egypt is facing1956is in large part due to the hosting of refugee communities,1957including the Sudanese communities. That said, a lot of1958Sudanese people, particularly from the center and north of the1959country, have a lot of familial ties with Egypt. There's, of1960course, a shared language and in many ways a shared history and1961culture that has meant a lot of people who believe that Egypt1962is still the place to go without the kind of refugee1963protections that you saw firsthand in Uganda which I think are1964sort of an aberration.1965    They're an exception. Without those protections, people in1966Sudan--Sudanese people in Egypt will be very vulnerable.1967Recently, the Egyptians came up with some legislation that has1968made it actually more difficult for people in Sudan to be able1969to register with UNHCR and therefore get the requisite support1970there.1971    Mr. Smith. Thank you so very much. Anything else? Deeply1972appreciate it. And we will followup.1973    Ms. Khair. Thank you.1974    Mr. Smith. And if we have some additional questions, we1975will get them to you, particularly for some of the members who1976are not here but wanted to be. And without any further ado, the1977hearing is adjourned.1978    [Whereupon, at 12:25 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.]19791980                                APPENDIX19811982                              ----------19831984               Material Submitted for the Hearing Record1985[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]19861987                                 [all]