S.Hrg.119-315

1[Senate Hearing 119-315]2[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]34                                                        S. Hrg. 119-31556                        PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN7                  ONLINE AGAINST THE EVOLVING OFFENDER89=======================================================================1011                                HEARING1213                               before the1415                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY16                          UNITED STATES SENATE1718                    ONE HUNDRED NINETEENTH CONGRESS1920                             FIRST SESSION2122                               __________2324                            DECEMBER 9, 20252526                               __________2728                          Serial No. J-119-522930                               __________3132         Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary3334                 [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]3536                        www.judiciary.senate.gov37                            www.govinfo.gov3839                               ______4041                 U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE424362-972                    WASHINGTON : 20264445                       COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY4647                  CHARLES E. GRASSLEY, Iowa, Chairman4849LINDSEY O. GRAHAM, South Carolina    RICHARD J. DURBIN, Illinois,50JOHN CORNYN, Texas                       Ranking Member51MICHAEL S. LEE, Utah                 SHELDON WHITEHOUSE, Rhode Island52TED CRUZ, Texas                      AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota53JOSH HAWLEY, Missouri                CHRISTOPHER A. COONS, Delaware54THOM TILLIS, North Carolina          RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, Connecticut55JOHN KENNEDY, Louisiana              MAZIE K. HIRONO, Hawaii56MARSHA BLACKBURN, Tennessee          CORY A. BOOKER, New Jersey57ERIC SCHMITT, Missouri               ALEX PADILLA, California58KATIE BOYD BRITT, Alabama            PETER WELCH, Vermont59ASHLEY MOODY, Florida                ADAM B. SCHIFF, California6061             Kolan Davis, Chief Counsel and Staff Director62         Joe Zogby, Democratic Chief Counsel and Staff Director6364                            C O N T E N T S6566                           OPENING STATEMENTS6768                                                                   Page6970Grassley, Hon. Charles E.........................................     171Durbin, Hon. Richard J...........................................     27273                               WITNESSES7475Coffren, Lauren..................................................     876    Prepared statement...........................................    3177Smolar, Jessica Lieber...........................................     678    Prepared statement...........................................    5179Woods, Tamia.....................................................     580    Prepared statement...........................................    538182                                APPENDIX8384Items submitted for the record...................................    598586                        PROTECTING OUR CHILDREN87                  ONLINE AGAINST THE EVOLVING OFFENDER8889                              ----------9091                       TUESDAY, DECEMBER 9, 20259293                              United States Senate,94                                Committee on the Judiciary,95                                                    Washington, DC.96    The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:18 a.m., in97Room 216, Hart Senate Office Building, Hon. Charles E.98Grassley, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.99    Present: Senators Grassley [presiding], Graham, Cornyn,100Hawley, Tillis, Blackburn, Britt, Moody, Durbin, Whitehouse,101Klobuchar, Blumenthal, Hirono, Booker and Padilla.102103        OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLES E. GRASSLEY,104             A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF IOWA105106    Chairman Grassley. Good morning, everybody.107    Today's hearing will examine what we call the emerging108issues involving child online exploitation and the evolving109offenders that seem to keep up to date on everything they can110do to harm these young people. As technology changes and111evolves, so do bad actors who use it to commit all types of112crime. This is especially true in the child exploitation space.113Gone are the days of ordering child exploitation material from114overseas by mail. Now, child exploitation material is readily115available online through various file-sharing platforms,116through direct access to victims and domestic and international117websites, and groups such as ``764''.118    Not only has technology changed, but today's online child119offenders have changed as well. Today's online offender is more120violent, more cruel, and more shocking than offenders just 20121years ago. Offenders will manipulate, pressure, harass, and122seek to control vulnerable children through extortion,123blackmail, and shame. That conduct is commonly called124sextortion. Offenders extort children for money or other things125of value, or to manipulate them to commit harmful acts, to live126stream, or record for others to watch.127    Today's offenders target younger children, many between the128ages of 12 and 15, but some as young as 5 and 6, and maybe in129some cases even younger. Offenders exploit multiple victims,130causing more pain, causing humiliation and degradation to more131people than ever before. They leave families of victims in132insufferable pain and despair and cause a lifetime of recovery133for many victims. Offenders feel emboldened to carry out their134illegal conduct on our children because of access to private,135hidden, online groups of like-minded people who share their136sick desire to harm and exploit children.137    Sadly, offenders often operate under the cover of secrecy,138making it even more difficult for law enforcement to identify139them and bring them to justice. They often focus on vulnerable140populations, such as those with mental health issues, lack of141strong family or community ties, or other insecurities.142Offenders will often disguise their true identity and pretend143to be of similar age or background to their targeted victims in144order to gain their trust. Offenders seek an online145relationship with a child to exploit them for money, for sexual146images, or to cause them to commit harm to themselves or to147others.148    When offenders are eventually caught by law enforcement,149prosecutors charge them with the most appropriate charges.150However, there are no specific laws to address the terrible and151shocking acts conducted by gore groups such as 764 and those152engaged in sextortion.153    Two of the three bills that I introduced today will address154these offenders. My first bill called Ending Coercion of155Children and Harm Online, ECCHO for short, will address the156horrific conduct that these gore groups do when they target157children to commit violent acts like injuries to animals, self-158harm, and suicide. The second bill, called the Stop Sextortion159Act, will hold these people who engage in online threatening160acts of sextortion toward children accountable under the same161law which addresses child sexual abuse material.162    Finally, when offenders are convicted of child sex abuse163material offenses, less than one-third of the cases are164sentenced within the current sentencing guidelines. Simply put165then, the current sentencing guidelines are outdated and166disregarded by most Federal judges because they do not167adequately account for common offenders' characteristics that168differentiate the bad from the worst online child exploiters.169That bill has the title Sentencing Accountability for170Exploitation, or the SAFE Act. It will require the Sentencing171Commission to draft and revise the child sexual abuse material172guidelines to include many of the aggravating factors we now173see with today's online offenders. Those factors include174encryption or other masking techniques were used or whether the175offender was part of an online group to commit the offense,176just to name a few. This bill will provide the much-needed177guidance to the Sentencing Commission of our Government to178overhaul the child sexual abuse material guidelines in a179meaningful way to distinguish offender behavior.180    Now to Senator Durbin, Ranking Member.181182         OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD J. DURBIN,183           A U.S. SENATOR FROM THE STATE OF ILLINOIS184185    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman, and glad you are186holding this hearing. And the fact that you have held this187hearing and we had similar hearings when I Chaired the188Committee I think is a message to all who are following us this189is bipartisan, and it should be, start to finish.190    And we have a real task ahead of us. As Senator Grassley191describes the legislation that is pending, I can recall the192hearing for Ketanji Brown Jackson to the Supreme Court, and one193of the big issues brought up over and over again were the use194of sentencing guidelines for abuses in this area that were195written so long ago they didn't reflect the reality of the196extortion which is going on today.197    And judges of the most conservative political stripe and198the most liberal political stripe were reaching the same199conclusion, that those guidelines just don't work anymore. They200were counting offenses by the number of images. Well, that201might have made sense when we were talking about 8X10202photographs. It makes no sense when we are talking about203technology of today and the videos that are involved. So we204have got to update that and show the reality of the situation,205and I think that is something we can all work on together.206    I learned something else. We would get unanimous votes in207this Committee, if you remember, right? Republicans and208Democrats would both be voting for the legislation that we209think would change things for the better. And then it210disappeared, disappeared between the Committee and the floor.211And the same is happening now. We make great speeches here. We212sometimes enact great laws in the Committee.213    But when it comes to taking them to the floor, to enact214them on the floor and eventually send them over to the House,215we drop them all completely. That has got to end. There is no216reason for that. To invite these witnesses, as compelling as217they are, and then to ignore their testimony when it comes to218executing on the floor is unacceptable. Let's kind of decide at219this point that if you are going to have the nerve to give a220speech here on the subject, you ought to have the nerve to do221it on the floor and do it repeatedly. So let's have a sense of222urgency in what we are setting out to do.223    I work with Senator Hawley, in fact, many others, too--224survivors, law enforcement, advocates--to put together the STOP225CSAM Act. The bill takes a comprehensive approach to stemming226the tide of online child exploitation. I have repeatedly said227we must bring the same sense of urgency to protecting kids in228the virtual world that we do in the real world.229    But the landscape of online child exploitation is changing230dramatically by the day. Two trends in particular demand our231attention, financially motivated sextortion and sadistic online232exploitation. What once was rare is now epidemic. In 2021,233NCMEC, the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children,234received a total of 139 cyber tips involving financially235motivated sextortion, 2021, 139 tips. In the first 6 months of236this year alone, they have already received 23,000 of these237tips, plus. Offenders often operated in coordinated criminal238networks overseas, targeting teenagers in the United States,239and we will hear specific cases about that. They coerce them240into sending a sexually explicit image and then threaten to241release it unless money is paid.242    For too many families, this crime ends in tragedy. NCMEC243has identified more than 36 young men in the United States who244have died by suicide after being sextorted. We are joined by245one of those families. I said hello to Mrs. Woods and thanked246her for being here. But she lost her son, James, at 17 years247old when he was targeted. She is here in a courageous capacity,248and thank you for being here, transforming unbearable loss into249call for action. That photograph of your son in his track250outfit in front of the hurdles tells the story. I am sure he251was a wonderful young man and you cherish his memory by being252here today.253    Another disturbing trend is a rise in offenders who do not254just view or trade images of abuse but direct real-time255torture, encourage escalating violence, groom children to256produce CSAM and self-harm videos. NCMEC has identified this257behavior as sadistic online exploitation. The threat is258accelerating. The numbers tell the story.259    This is an unacceptable systemic failure, and what are we260going to do about it? We are going to have a hearing. We are261going to call witnesses. We are going to lament the situation.262What are we going to do about it? Is there going to be a bill263in the new session to say that we are so overwhelmed with264legislation on the floor we don't have time is a joke. Watch265the Senate and tell me that we don't have the time to take this266up. We have more than enough time to do it right.267    This Committee has a history of tackling the tough issues.268Mr. Chairman, it is up to you and me and those Senators on both269sides of the aisle to make it happen. Thank you.270    Chairman Grassley. Thank you.271    Now, I am going to introduce our witnesses. We will hear272from them, and then we will have questions. Ms. Tamia Woods and273her husband Tim are parents of James Woods. James was a good274student, year-round track and field athlete. At 17, James275tragically took his own life November 2022 after being extorted276by someone online for $300. James had sent the online abuser a277compromising video of himself and was threatened with being278exposed by the person if James didn't pay the $300 ransom.279    Mrs. Woods and her husband are the founders of the Do It280for James Foundation. The mission of the foundation is to281create awareness for kids and their families to prevent similar282tragedies. We thank you, Mrs. Woods, for being here to share a283heartbreaking story.284    Jessica Smolar is a former assistant U.S. attorney in the285Western District of Pennsylvania. With 30 years' experience286there, Ms. Smolar handled a variety of criminal cases,287including cases involving child sexual abuse material, child288exploitation, and cybercrime and national security. Ms. Smolar289has received several Department of Justice and law enforcement290awards for her work as an assistant U.S. attorney, including2912022 Attorney General's Distinguished Service Award and the292United States Attorney's Victim's Advocate Award for dedication293and extraordinary contributions in the service of victims.294    Lauren Coffren is executive director of the Exploited295Children's Division of the National Center for Missing and296Exploited Children. She has been employed for over 20 years297with the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children,298serving in various roles. Ms. Coffren oversees the Exploited299Children's Division, which operates several programs, including300the CyberTipline and Child Victim Identification Program. In301addition, Ms. Coffren started the CSAM Survivors Services302Program, working to improve the responses to survivors of child303sexual abuse material.304    We welcome all of you here today, and it is our tradition305to ask you to stand and swear to this oath.306    [Witnesses are sworn in.]307    Chairman Grassley. Thank you all very much. They all308affirmatively responded.309    Now, we will start with Mrs. Woods. And don't forget to310push the button on your----311    Ms. Woods. Yes, sir.312    Chairman Grassley. Proceed.313314             STATEMENT OF TAMIA WOODS, CO-FOUNDER,315          DO IT FOR JAMES FOUNDATION, STREETSBORO, OH316317    Ms. Woods. Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member Durbin, and318Committee Members, thank you for allowing me to speak today. My319name is Tamia Woods, and I speak on the behalf of myself, my320husband, Tim, and for our beautiful child, James Timothy Woods,321forever age 17. I stand before you as a mother whose only child322was taken by something so preventable, so cruel, and so ignored323that it should shake every person in this room to their core.324    One of the messages sent to my son, ``I am more determined325to rot your life than to make it a waste, a trash can, a shame,326a dishonor, a hell, a real disaster, a hell on earth, and I327remind you that I am heartless. I have no pity to rot a life as328well as yours.'' This was one of almost 200 messages sent to my329child over the span of 19\1/2\ hours between November 18 and33019, 2022.331    James was the victim of financial sextortion, and though he332died by suicide, let me be clear, he was murdered.333    James was a beautiful young man with a soul like gold and a334smile that would light up any room. He would give you the shirt335off his back. He could figure out anything. He was witty,336thoughtful, kind, and loved chess.337    James was a high school senior. He wanted to major in pre-338law, and he was months away from breaking a 40-year-old school339record in the 110 hurdles. Every time I speak of him, I smile340because I am grateful God let me borrow his angel for 17\1/2\341years, but every day I am angry. A woman online befriended342James on Instagram. She created what every predator knows how343to build, a safe space. She made him feel comfortable, seen,344liked. She groomed him. Then she asked if he wanted to see her345unclothed and exposed herself. She asked him to do the same,346and like any innocent 17-year-old boy who liked a girl and saw347no danger, he did. That moment she created became their weapon.348    The attackers came, not one person, but what we believe, at349least four. For nearly 20 hours, they attacked, threatened,350terrorized, dismantled my child. Every time he tried to fight351back and ask, why are you doing this to me, please leave me352alone, they escalated, sending his image to friends and family,353telling him he would be labeled a pedophile, telling him his354future was over, telling him you should just kill yourself. And355in those last moments, my son, who had everything to live for,356felt like he had no other choice.357    A day that started with laughter, college friends, and joy358ended with my husband finding our child unalive in our home in359the middle of the day. No parent should ever enter a room and360see that. I stand here because 19\1/2\ hours is not a short361time in the digital world. It is a lifetime. It is enough time362for someone to intervene, to flag an account, to cancel363messages, to report this behavior. Yet no one stepped in, no364system protecting him, no platform stopped it.365    So my husband and I created the Do It For James Foundation,366and since the day that James has died, we dedicated our lives367to speaking out, teaching, and fighting so that no other parent368feels the pain that sits in our heart every single moment of369every single day.370    Large corporations continue to argue for rights while371refusing to take responsibility. We are asking you to put laws372in place that give us multiple avenues to protect our kids373because parental controls alone are not enough. Click here to374opt out at age 13 is not protection. Predators thrive when the375risk is low but reward is high. Criminals are making billions376by exploiting our children because we tell our parents, monitor377your kids better, while platforms refuse to monitor predators378at all. How dare we lay blame on the victims while criminals379walk free.380    Today, instead of checking on James' homework, instead of381mailing him care packages to his college dorm, instead of382cheering him on for track meets, I hold a picture, a picture of383my son's photos that he never had a chance to see because that384is all I have left, 17\1/2\ memories--17\1/2\ years of memories385but no new ones.386    So I am begging you to stand with us, stand up, do387something, help us save lives. We may not be able to save them388all, but with the right laws, with accountability, with real389consequences, we can make it harder for predators to win. We390can make it harder for another parent to bury their child.391Please do it for James. Do it for every child whose name we392never got a chance to learn.393    Thank you. Thank you.394    [The prepared statement of Ms. Woods appears as a395submission for the record.]396    Chairman Grassley [off mic]. God bless you. Thank you. Mrs.397Smolar.398399STATEMENT OF JESSICA LIEBER SMOLAR, ESQ., FORMER ASSISTANT U.S.400   ATTORNEY, WESTERN DISTRICT OF PENNSYLVANIA, PITTSBURGH, PA401402    Ms. Smolar. Good morning, Chairman Grassley, Ranking Member403Durbin, and Members of the Committee. Thank you for inviting me404to testify here today. My name is Jessica Lieber Smolar, and I405had the honor of serving as an assistant United States attorney406in the Western District of Pennsylvania for three decades.407During my career as a Federal prosecutor, I personally handled408and oversaw hundreds of child exploitation and human409trafficking investigations and prosecutions. When I first began410prosecuting these offenses, investigations often centered411around physical evidence and traditional mail-based exchanges.412    Over time, I witnessed a monumental shift in the types of413child sexual abuse material, also referred to as CSAM, that414offenders collected, as well as their methods of collection.415This shift was not limited to the sheer volume and disturbing416nature of the material. It also encompassed the tools offenders417used to acquire, share, and conceal CSAM.418    Today, every child exploitation case involves the criminal419use of cellular phones and computers. Offenders use these tools420to stockpile massive quantities of sexually explicit videos and421images of children, frequently targeting prepubescent children.422Violent depictions of infants and toddlers being sexually423exploited were routinely collected by the defendants whom I424prosecuted.425    Offenders also increasingly used advanced technology and426platforms for CSAM trafficking. They congregate in online427communities and darknet forums solely devoted to child428exploitation. They can now more easily conceal their crimes and429their identities through encryption, VPNs, the darknet, and430remote erasure software.431    The law has not kept pace with the rapid technological432advances or evolving sex offender behavior. United States433Sentencing Guidelines, Section 2G2.2, was designed when CSAM434was distributed by mail, so it adds offense enhancements for435actions common to all CSAM offenders today, like using a436computer, possessing images of prepubescent minors, or amassing437many images. The guideline enhancements apply broadly and no438longer reflect varying levels of offender culpability or risk.439Legislation is needed to amend the CSAM guidelines.440    The Sentencing Commission's June 2021 report found that441Section 2G2 is outdated, leading judges to exercise their442discretion to reduce sentences for child sexual offenders. The443commission's data for Fiscal Year 2019 showed that less than 30444percent of non-production child pornography offenders were445sentenced within the recommended guidelines. This statistic446reflects broad judicial dissatisfaction and leads to447inconsistent sentencing nationwide. As Federal prosecutors, my448colleagues and I often considered plea offers to binding449sentences to avoid the application of the insufficient450sentencing guidelines and sentencing disparities.451    There are also emerging crimes that are not fully covered452by existing criminal statutes, such as those committed by453members of the violent online network 764. The 764 members454befriend children sometimes as young as 9 years old through455popular online platforms and then coerce them into escalating456sexual, self-destructive, and violent behavior, compelling457victims to document sex acts, harm siblings and family pets,458cut and mutilate themselves, or attempt suicide.459    There are no Federal statutes that adequately criminalize460the coercive conduct of 764 and similar groups. As Federal461prosecutors, we focused on proving more conventional statutory462violations, like CSAM possession or production, or distribution463of obscenity to minors to effectively prosecute these horrific464crimes.465    Similarly, law enforcement agencies have reported an466alarming increase in sextortion cases, children being coerced467into sending sexually explicit images online, like James that468we just heard about. Perpetrators engage victims in flirtatious469conversations on social media and gaming platforms where they470feel comfortable to obtain explicit images. The offenders then471use the sexually compromising images to blackmail victims for472more images, or in the case of financial extortion, for money473or gift cards. They threaten to widely publicize the image to474the child's friends and family. Children suffer severe475emotional distress as a result of such sexual extortion, and476too many have engaged in self-harm or suicide. As Federal477prosecutors, we found it challenging to effectively charge478sextortion and financial sextortion. Existing statutes do not479adequately address the full scope or severe harm of these480crimes.481    Increasing public understanding of the evolving and482destructive risk to children online is crucial. Legislation is483needed to strengthen the legal framework and better support484those responsible for protecting children.485    I welcome your questions. Thank you.486    [The prepared statement of Ms. Smolar appears as a487submission for the record.]488    Chairman Grassley [off mic]. Thank you, Ms. Smolar.489    Now, Ms. Coffren.490491  STATEMENT OF LAUREN COFFREN, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, EXPLOITED492  CHILDREN DIVISION, NATIONAL CENTER FOR MISSING & EXPLOITED493                    CHILDREN, ALEXANDRIA, VA494495    Ms. Coffren. Good morning, Chairman Grassley, Ranking496Member Durbin, and Members of the Committee. My name is Lauren497Coffren, and I am the executive director of the Exploited498Children Division at the National Center for Missing and499Exploited Children, or NCMEC. NCMEC is a nonprofit organization500created in 1984 by child advocates to help find missing501children, reduce child exploitation, and prevent child502victimization, and I'm honored to be here today in order to503share NCMEC's perspective on evolving online child sexual504exploitation crimes.505    NCMEC is congressionally designated to operate 16 programs506related to missing and exploited children's issues. One of507NCMEC's core programs is the CyberTipline, the centralized508mechanism for the public and online platforms to report509incidents of child sexual exploitation. Through its work with510the CyberTipline, NCMEC has seen children sexually exploited511online for decades.512    Today, we are confronting alarming rates of emerging crimes513where sexually exploiting a child is not the final objective514but a means of achieving a larger goal of financial gain or515incitement of chaos. NCMEC shares this Committee's deep concern516that offenders will continue to evolve and escalate their517exploitation of children online unless we act now to hold518online platforms accountable when they facilitate a child's519exploitation to ensure safety by design is incorporated into520development of new technology.521    Today, I'd like to share NCMEC's insights about three522especially alarming new trends on how children are being523sexually exploited online. One of the newest trends I'd like to524highlight is related to online enticement where reports grew by525192 percent last year. Specifically, we continue to see a rise526in financial sextortion, where an offender blackmails a child527for money or gift cards in exchange for not distributing nude528or sexual images of the child. Unlike offenders who are529normally sexually motivated, these offenders are driven by530financial gain.531    As we heard from Tamia Woods just a few moments ago, this532crime targets teenage boys, and too often, the outcomes are533tragic. High-performing boys with large social circles like534James are becoming victims of coerced suicide as a result of535this crime. Offenders use incessant aggressive threats of536public exposure, shame, arrest, as if the target--if the537targeted boys fail to comply with the escalating demands for538money.539    The second trend NCMEC has identified in the past year is540sadistic online exploitation. This trend has led to the most541egregious exploitation that NCMEC has ever seen. Violent online542offenders work in groups, targeting and manipulating vulnerable543children, some as young as 12 years old, on popular online544platforms and gaming sites to create and share sexually545explicit content, to cut themselves, carving offenders' names546into their bodies, to harm, to kill animals, to physically or547sexually abuse other children, including their younger548siblings, and even to commit suicide. These offenders lure549children into online relationships, then terrorize them with550rapid-fire threats to kill the child's family or disclose551personal information if they don't comply with their demands.552Reports of these brutal victimizations grew by 200 percent last553year and continue rising.554    The third trend I'd like to note today is the use of555generative artificial intelligence, or GAI, to sexually exploit556children. NCMEC believes we are just beginning to see the true557impact of GAI on child sexual exploitation. Offenders use GAI558to create new sexually abusive content, to alter known child559sexual abuse images, to nudify images of children, and to chat560about how to entice and exploit children. In the first half of561this year, NCMEC received over 440,000 reports connected to562GAI, and we expect to have over 1 million reports by the end of563this year.564    These three trends tragically affirm that online offenders565are using evolving technology to exploit children in new and566more extreme ways. This exploitation will not stop until567Congress passes laws that close legal gaps, incentivizes568companies to adopt safety by design, and provide essential569tools to better protect children. NCMEC appreciates that570Congress acted decisively to pass laws like the REPORT Act and571the TAKE IT DOWN Act, and supporting newly introduced bills572like STOP CSAM Act, ENFORCE Act, the Safe Cloud Storage Act,573and the GUARD Act. We need to ensure that these pending bills574are passed, and our laws to protect children keep pace with the575technological advances.576    Thank you for allowing NCMEC to share our insights with you577today. We look forward to continuing our work with this578Committee to share information, to craft legislative solutions,579and to keep children safer online.580    [The prepared statement of Ms. Coffren appears as a581submission for the record.]582    Chairman Grassley. Before I start my line of questions, I583would like to enter into the record these [off mic] children584have committed suicide and were also people that were severely585harmed because of sextortion in online groups like 764. Is586there any objection?587    [No response.]588    Chairman Grassley. I hear none, so that will be done.589    [The information appears as a submission for the record.]590    Mrs. Woods, I am going to start with you. Recently, there591have been several news reports of increased sextortion cases592and how quickly bad actors can manipulate children into sending593sexual images and then engage in a campaign to threaten toward594the children, placing them in impossible situations. Many of595those children think that suicide is the answer. You have596promoted changes in various State laws to make sextortion597illegal after the tragedy of your son. From a parent's point of598view, why is it important to make these sextortion illegal599under Federal law?600    Ms. Woods. Well, a number of things. First of all, we have601to look at sextortion like what it is. It is our children are602being sexually exploited. They are a sexually assaulted victim.603And most people in general never speak out. Less than 30604percent actually speak out about being victimized. We have to605make sure that not only our children see that we have their606backs on these issues, but we have to make sure that they know607that there are resources and laws that back them up as well.608Our kids need to know that.609    And James never spoke to anyone. He had a wonderful,610wonderful community that had his back, but yet he never spoke611up. And so it's laws like this that would back our children and612influence them to speak up and let them know that they're being613victimized.614    And people need to be held accountable on top of that. They615need to know that they're--they shouldn't be comfortable with616doing the things that they're doing. Right now, they're617comfortable, and you see more and more people being victimized618because of that.619    Chairman Grassley. Thank you.620    Ms. Coffren, you have been with the center for 20 years in621a variety of positions involving online child safety. Describe622the recent trends involving these violent gore groups like 764623and how they operate and target children online.624    Ms. Coffren. Thank you so much for your question. These625sadistic online exploitation, violent online groups, they go by626various names here that we've heard them referenced as, but627most often, they're motivated purely by chaos. Their goal is to628be able to take the--weaponizing our Nation's children to be629able to create terror, to be able to show just how harmful they630can be. And they do that oftentimes by seeking out to target631the most vulnerable, children who may already be demonstrating632mental health issues, who may be indicating that they have633thoughts of self-harm, perhaps eating disorders.634    Those children may be looking for solace, for comfort, for635advice in online platforms and spaces where they can find a636community. And unfortunately, these offenders are infiltrating637and targeting those communities to be able to create638relationships with those children and then to be able to push639boundaries, to test them, to see if they can hold up a sign640with their name on it, maybe hold up a sign with a signal or a641logo. And by doing this, they're testing those boundaries to642see how far they can push that child. Can they get them to put643their name on their body? Can they get them to carve the name644into the body?645    And unfortunately, that incrementalization can often lead646to really tragic results. Each step along the way can be647weaponized against that child. And what we often see is a648swarming kind of effect where multiple offenders will go after649the same child at one point in time.650    The imagery, the videos, the chats that we are seeing and651reading are the most graphic that I have ever seen in my 20-652year history. We are hearing from law enforcement out in the653field who have said that this is the most disturbing content as654well. So you're talking about seasoned professionals who are655really meeting their match with the new and evolving types of656exploitation that we are seeing.657    Chairman Grassley. Yes. Ms. Smolar, I am going to forget my658lead in. I want to get to the question because my time is659running out. Could you share why we need Federal legislation660specifically to address these gore groups and other individuals661who engage in sextortion? Share your experiences with us in662working with investigations involving these groups.663    Ms. Smolar. Thank you, Senator.664    Senator Durbin. Your microphone.665    Ms. Smolar. I apologize.666    Congress has already provided so many important tools to667those of us in the field like mandatory minimums for crimes668like receipt and distribution of child pornography or669production. We need those tools in order to properly hold these670type of defendants accountable. Right now, when we charge671crimes like sextortion or 764, across the country, we all672charge them differently. Sometimes we charge them as online673threats. Sometimes if we are lucky, we find CSAM and we charge674them that way. There's no consistency that allows us to675properly address the specific harm that these actors are676committing.677    In addition, a lot of these actors are overseas, and it678would be extremely helpful for those of us who want to679extradite people here to the United States to hold them680accountable to have a felony statute that specifically speaks681to this harm.682    I'm familiar with a case where a defendant was in Germany,683and Germany had a coercion to harm statute, but we did not.684They were able to charge that 764 offender there. We could not685charge him here. That's--that shouldn't happen. We should be686able to charge these offenders, hold them accountable, and687deter them from continuing to hurt our children.688    Chairman Grassley. Thanks, all three of you. Senator689Durbin.690    Senator Durbin. Thanks, Mr. Chairman.691    Ms. Smolar, we have considered the issue you raised in your692testimony so many times, so many different ways because it can693be characterized by some that if you don't follow the strict694sentencing guidelines, that you are soft on crime, that you695really don't care enough to impose the adequate sentence. What696you tell us is less than 30 percent of non-production child697pornography offenders were sentenced within the recommended698guidelines, reflecting broad judicial satisfaction, 70 percent,699and inconsistent sentencing nationwide.700    You say, ``As Federal prosecutors, my colleagues and I701often considered plea offers to binding sentences to avoid the702application of the insufficient sentencing guidelines and703disparities.'' Tell me a little more. What are you talking704about here?705    Ms. Smolar. Especially in cases where you're talking about,706for example, possession of CSAM where there's no mandatory707minimum sentence, oftentimes, my colleagues and I--and not just708in the Western District of Pennsylvania, but nationwide--would709see sentences that we felt were insufficient. When you're710talking about possession of CSAM, you are talking about a real711child being harmed in the most serious way possible. And I712personally believe that sentences for people who are collecting713that type of material should be significant in order to protect714victims and to deter others from collecting it. So it's715important that the sentencing guidelines are useful to judges.716    Senator Durbin. I understand part of the problem was a717numeric issue.718    Ms. Smolar. Yes.719    Senator Durbin. Initially, so many instances of objects720that a person had led to a certain sentencing guideline, but721now that they are being collected in video form or in different722technology form----723    Ms. Smolar. Right.724    Senator Durbin [continuing]. The counting numbers really725doesn't tell the story. Is that your impression?726    Ms. Smolar. It doesn't. All we were--we're talking about727math. It's not about math. These are about real offenders and728culpability and risk. For example, what you're referring to is729one image--one video is 75 images under the sentencing730guidelines. You start adding up videos to try to get to 600731images, and you get a 5-point enhancement. Use of a computer is732a 2-point enhancement. Pre-pubescent children, 2-point733enhancement. That doesn't really tell the story of these734offenders and how dangerous they potentially are.735    So legislation will be needed to address, are they on736specific darknet forums talking about how to abuse children?737Are they using multiple platforms to try to get to children or738to share this material? Are they--how severe are the images and739how many victims are in them? That is not necessarily740encompassed by the sentencing guidelines right now, so741legislation is needed to address offender risk.742    Senator Durbin. Ms. Coffren, I was interested with the743Chairman's question that you responded that sometimes the744object of this exploitation is chaos. It is not financial. Tell745me a little more on that. What is the value of this perpetrator746wasting all of these hours leading to the self-harm of a young747person or worse?748    Ms. Coffren. Right. What we are--thank you so much for that749question, Senator. What we are seeing is these loosely750coordinated groups that you've been referencing like 764 and751some of these other that we're referencing as sadistic online752are fueled and motivated by being able to have clout notoriety753for the impact of their actions. This means it extends much754more beyond just CSAM. It is how can they use children to harm755themselves or the others and then harm the community as well.756So we also see children being coerced into planning school757shootings or threatening their communities as well that are758also offshoots of this type of work.759    So child sexual exploitation has actually been hijacked as760one methodology for a larger way of trying to be able to use761children against the community and for shock and for awe. The762more that we talk about this, unfortunately, we feed their763desire for that notoriety for the impact that they're having,764and these sometimes called nihilistic violent groups as well is765really fueled by something that we are just not that familiar766with operating with, which is pure chaos.767    Senator Durbin. Ms. Woods, how long do you think your son768was being exploited before he finally lost his life?769    Ms. Woods. It was 19\1/2\ hours. He received 200 messages770in 19\1/2\ hours with what we believe four different people771attacking him at one time.772    Senator Durbin. Do you have any idea where the source of773these attacks goes?774    Ms. Woods. His murderers are in Ivory Coast. And we of775course don't have--we--we're told we'll never receive justice776for James.777    Senator Durbin. I am so sorry for that.778    Ms. Woods. Thank you.779    Senator Durbin. Thank you for being here, all three of you.780    Chairman Grassley. Thank you, Senator Durbin. Senator781Graham.782    Senator Graham. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for yet another783very emotional hearing about a topic that we constantly talk784about and do little about.785    I am perplexed. I can understand having differences on786healthcare and taxes and you name it, we have a different--all787of us agree on this pretty much. What is going on in the Senate788and the House where no matter who is in charge, nothing really789happens? I said this when I was Chairman.790    So here we are in 2025. This 764 group--how do you say your791last name?792    Ms. Smolar. Smolar.793    Senator Graham. So I want to acknowledge the FBI and the794District of Columbia U.S. Attorney's Office brought a case795against two people. Are you all familiar with that? That is a796good start, right? Kash Patel is focused on this group. Should797they be domestic terrorists under U.S. law?798    Ms. Smolar. It's a good question, Senator. I can tell you799even within the FBI, there are cross-programmatic focuses on800this group because----801    Senator Graham. I mean, do you think they should be802domestic terrorists? If these people are not domestic803terrorists, who would be?804    Ms. Smolar. A lot of----805    Senator Graham. You all both just told us that they are806trying to bring down society by harming our children and807exploiting them. Why shouldn't they be domestic terrorists?808    Ms. Smolar. I do know that they have been charged in at809least one case as domestic terrorists.810    Senator Graham. Well, I would like to put a list. Ms.811Coffren, are you okay with making this group domestic812terrorists?813    Ms. Coffren. I think when we're looking at how individuals814are weaponizing our children, a lot more research needs to be815done.816    Senator Graham. Not really. No, not really.817    Ms. Coffren. Certainly----818    Senator Graham. No. This phone, do you think it is a819dangerous product for children, Ms. Woods?820    [Holds up cell phone.]821    Ms. Woods. Yes, I do. And to answer----822    Senator Graham. What is more dangerous, smoking or this?823    Ms. Woods. Oh, the phone, of course.824    Senator Graham. Do you agree with that?825    Ms. Smolar. I do.826    Senator Graham. Do you agree with that?827    Ms. Coffren. Without a doubt.828    Senator Graham. Okay. Well, I am not urging people to829smoke. I don't think kids should smoke.830    Why don't we label this a dangerous product and at least831inform consumers better? Do you agree that is a good idea?832    Ms. Woods. I agree.833    Senator Graham. Okay. There are so many good ideas, and I834want to compliment this Committee, who is awfully divided, for835coming up with one good idea after another from, you know,836Senator Hawley, Blackburn, all of us, Cornyn, everybody is837working together. Nobody has been better on this than Senator838Durbin.839    So February is the 30th anniversary of Section 230. Are you840familiar with Section 230? Ms. Woods, are you familiar with it?841    Ms. Woods. Yes, sir.842    Senator Graham. You really can't sue anybody that was843involved in helping these people murder your son, can you?844    Ms. Woods. No.845    Senator Graham. Do you all agree that it is time to revisit846Section 230?847    Ms. Smolar. Yes.848    Ms. Coffren. Yes.849    Senator Graham. Do you believe it is time to open the850courtrooms to people who have been harmed by this behavior?851    Ms. Woods. Yes.852    Ms. Smolar. Yes.853    Ms. Coffren. Yes.854    Senator Graham. Do you agree that Section 230 gives a legal855pass on the most bizarre, harmful behavior in the country, and85630 years later, we should revisit Section 230?857    Ms. Woods. Yes.858    Ms. Smolar. Yes.859    Ms. Coffren. Yes.860    Senator Graham. Okay. Me too. So what are we going to do?861Here is what I am going to do. I am going to write a letter to862Senator Thune and Senator Schumer, both good men, and in863February, we should have like a social media week where we take864all these good ideas and we dedicate a week or 2 weeks to doing865nothing on the floor but this, to try to take these laws that866everybody coming up with and put them in a big package and put867us all on record as are we all talk, or are we willing to act?868Do you all like that idea?869    Ms. Woods. I sure do.870    Ms. Coffren. Great idea.871    Senator Graham. We will have like a couple of months to let872the country know, tune in in February, we are going to do some873things to protect your children and see where the Senate is on874this. Would you support that idea?875    Ms. Woods. Yes.876    Ms. Smolar. Yes.877    Ms. Coffren. Yes.878    Senator Graham. Okay, good. So I would like my colleagues879to think creatively what should be on that list, but come880February on the 30th anniversary of Section 230, I would like881to have an effort on the floor of the Senate to deal with the882dark side of Section 230. So I think that would be very, very883helpful.884    Now, the cost of doing business, do you agree with me the885more likely you are to go to jail, a lot of people avoid that886area?887    Ms. Woods. Yes.888    Ms. Smolar. Yes.889    Senator Graham. Do you agree with me that the more likely890you are to get sued if you put out a bad product, the more891likely you are to try to change that product?892    Ms. Coffren. Yes.893    Ms. Smolar. Yes.894    Ms. Woods. Yes.895    Senator Graham. Do you all agree that we have, as a Nation,896miserably failed our children, that we have hearings and we897talk and we have done very little to protect them as of this898date?899    Ms. Woods. Yes.900    Ms. Smolar. Yes.901    Ms. Coffren. Yes.902    Senator Graham. That is a damning indictment of all of us.903Thank you.904    Chairman Grassley. Senator Hirono.905    Senator Hirono. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.906    Thank you to our panel for testifying.907    And Ms. Woods, our hearts go out to you for the tragic loss908of your son.909    As I look at this issue, and as mentioned by my colleagues,910that we have been wrestling with child exploitation, which is911only getting worse. It is not getting any better. It is getting912worse and acknowledged by all of us the sense of frustration913because this is actually an issue that receives bipartisan914focus and a desire on our part to do more than what we have915done so far. And I am looking at this issue by way of focusing916on, I think there is a prevention aspect to it. There is a917prosecution aspect to it. And as Ms. Smolar says, you know, the918laws have not kept up with all of the kinds of ways that these919exploiters coming up to evade prosecution, so there is a920prosecution part.921    And then I would say there is a civil remedies part, which922is really looking at Section 230 and removing the kind of total923immunity that Section 230 provides.924    So if I look at the prevention side, what can we do to925prevent the kind of tragedy that overtook James?926    Ms. Woods. So it's a number of things. I will say from the927Do It For James Foundation, over the last 3 years, we averaged928less than $10,000 in grants. We're not getting approved to even929do the prevention. It's all on the backs--my husband and I have930given hundreds of thousands of dollars each year to make sure931that we do so. That's one.932    Two, we have to make this a demand to talk about it in933schools. My husband and I have talked to well over 200,000934children. And because we made them aware of something they knew935about but didn't know quite it was illegal, nor did they know936what it was called, it led to four arrests and two being937investigated and hundreds of kids being saved by dying by938suicide.939    So we have to make sure that not only are you all educated,940not only are law enforcement agents educated, but also our941children need to be included in this education so that we know942what to do if we were ever presented by these murderers out943there, that we can let the kids know that they need to call944NCMEC and make sure that they have references that they need945and resources.946    Senator Hirono. I couldn't agree with you more because it947is the children who are being targeted for exploitation. And if948our children are not aware that if this happens to them and949they are targeted, that there are places to go, that they ought950to inform because I would think that if you are a child and you951are the target, you don't want to talk about it. You are trying952to hide it, whatever is happening.953    So would the three of you agree that we need to do a lot954better to get the communities and the children much more able955to call out what is happening to them? And what is it that we956need to do? Do we provide grants to the Department of Justice957and make sure that both DOJ and Homeland Security pay attention958to these horrible crimes that are happening? And rather than959focusing so much of their resources on immigration, that they960ought to--DOJ and Homeless Security should have the resources961to go after this kind of exploitation.962    But I just wanted to get the sense from all three of you,963you know, what specifically should we be doing on the964prevention side of the scale? And then for Ms. Smolar to tell965us what we can do to provide law enforcement the better tools966to prosecute these crimes. So do you want to share some of967your--grants to organizations, yes. Any other ideas on the968prevention side?969    Ms. Smolar. Sorry. Thank you, Senator. In addition--we970can't prosecute our way out of this. That is clear. We do need971the tools to be able to properly prosecute these crimes, but972education is key. I can't tell you how many people I told I was973coming here today to talk about 764 and they look at me974blankly. They don't know what it is. We need more public975education of children, teachers, coaches, clergy, people who976interact with children who could maybe look at their arms, see977if there are strange cuts, see if they look different, if978they're acting differently.979    PSAs are important. FBI has issued a number of PSAs on this980group, but I don't even think that's enough. We need more981public education in the schools, in the places where children982congregate so that they are not afraid to come forward and983report these crimes.984    Senator Hirono. Ms. Coffren.985    Ms. Coffren. Prevention is also detection. So what we need986to be able to see is companies able to detect some of these987keywords that are happening in chats, flagging for that, making988the kinds of reports, allowing law enforcement to investigate989this before those offenders are able to go on, create new990profiles, and blackmail, sextort, or coerce other children. So991I think taking a look, too, as well as to updating some of the992guidelines around what it takes to report. Are technology993companies required to be transparent about what it is that994they're doing behind the scenes as well? All of those efforts995can actually help to save lives if we know what steps are being996taken behind the scenes.997    Senator Hirono. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.998    Chairman Grassley. Thank you, Senator Hirono.999    Now, Senator Cornyn.1000    Senator Cornyn. Thank you all for being here. This is the1001third hearing we have had on this topic, and I am appreciative1002of the Chairman and for scheduling it. But it strikes me we1003need to actually do something, do something more.1004    The problem is, Ms. Smolar, you mentioned all the different1005sources of this information, CSAM and others, including the1006dark web. But as you just said, we can't prosecute ourselves1007out of this. Senator Graham said, well, maybe we ought to1008create an opportunity to sue. But could you just briefly1009describe the challenges, including international sources of1010this information and jurisdictional and other legal constraints1011that make that impractical?1012    Ms. Smolar. There are a lot of challenges in handling these1013cases. The darknet, VPNs, the smarter, more sophisticated1014offenders are able to hide their identities through encryption1015and through VPNs. So it is a huge challenge for law enforcement1016to identify the perpetrators here.1017    In addition, resources is always a problem. International1018offenders is an issue. You know, we had international offenders1019in a lot of the cybercrime cases that I handled, and we would1020get together with law enforcement in many, many countries and1021discuss these matters. That doesn't always happen in this area,1022and it's something that should because these crimes are1023international in scope. These offenders are coming from outside1024the U.S. a lot of----1025    Senator Cornyn. Well, Ms. Woods, you said your son's1026murderer was from Africa?1027    Ms. Woods. Yes, Ivory Coast. And we don't have an1028extradition treaty. They stated that they'll never hand over1029any of their natural born citizens.1030    Senator Cornyn. Well, it seems to me like we are trying to1031play catchup, but the technology and the bad guys are outpacing1032us at almost every turn. And, of course, I know Senator Hawley1033has a bill to deal with chatbots, but just to folks who are not1034familiar with that name, these are--this is technology that1035simulates human interaction, so somebody actually thinks that1036they are talking, perhaps, to a human being. And we can only1037imagine the uses to which that technology could be put to1038damage our children or cause them to hurt themselves or take1039their lives.1040    So Australia has passed a law that says that children under1041the age of 16 can't get access to social media accounts. What1042do you think about that, Ms. Woods?1043    Ms. Woods. Well, I would like to say that we----1044    Senator Cornyn. I know your son was 17, but----1045    Ms. Woods. Yes.1046    Senator Cornyn [continuing]. Do you think it would help?1047    Ms. Woods. Oh, yes, yes. I think that we--first of all, Tim1048and I did an article for Australia in 2023 when our son passed,1049and they didn't have the actual law in place. Since then, they1050made sure that they had a law. Even though our son was 17 years1051of age, we have to look at the--we allowed him to be online1052before that age. And what if we would have had these laws in1053place? It would have still made a difference. And even though1054we lost our only child, that doesn't mean that I'm not going to1055stand here and stand up for anybody else's kids----1056    Senator Cornyn. Of course.1057    Ms. Woods [continuing]. Because you all's kids are my1058kids----1059    Senator Cornyn. Of course.1060    Ms. Woods [continuing]. So I'm going to make sure that1061things get done.1062    Senator Cornyn. Well, God bless you for doing that.1063    Ms. Woods. Thank you.1064    Senator Cornyn. Ms. Coffren, NCMEC has been the leader in1065this area when it comes to child exploitation. Do you think1066that Congress should consider a law banning the use of social1067media for children 16 and younger?1068    Ms. Coffren. Certainly, that is one tool that would be kind1069of in the arsenal of being able to address this. I think we1070have to look at the different types of age restrictions, age1071assurances, age gatings. There's an awful lot of complexity1072that goes around into that, and so we need to be able to look1073at ways of holding the social media companies and online1074platforms responsible, as well as the device or the app stores,1075as well as ensuring that there's better parental controls. We1076see----1077    Senator Cornyn. Well, they have got technology that I just1078barely struggle to understand. And certainly, they would be in1079the best position, would they not, Ms. Smolar, to know what is1080happening on their own platforms?1081    Ms. Smolar. Correct. Although I will state that in a lot of1082these crimes, the offenders will find a child, for example, on1083Snapchat or Instagram, but then they will move them to a1084different application like Signal where we have no control over1085that.1086    Senator Cornyn. Ms. Coffren, if Senator Grassley will allow1087me, you mentioned something that intrigued me when you said1088some of these platforms--some of the information or some of1089these individuals are inciting to chaos. What did you mean by1090that?1091    Ms. Coffren. So they're motivated purely by a goal, not1092sexual exploitation of a child. They are not the traditional,1093you know, pedophile that we might think about. Their goal is to1094cause disruption in our communities, to have us holding1095hearings today talking about just how difficult it is to think1096about our children being harmed for shock and for awe.1097    And so when that is the new type of offender, we need new1098types of tools. Looking at the types of signals that exist on1099the social media platforms, the chats, how people are operating1100is going to be really essential to try to stay current to these1101kind of evolving statuses of new offenders and new motivations.1102    Senator Cornyn. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1103    Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Senator Blackburn.1104    Senator Blackburn. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1105    And as I spoke with each of the three of you earlier, I am1106just so grateful for your work, for your commitment, and your1107willingness to talk about this. And it has been so interesting1108to me as someone who has worked to protect children and to1109really focus on what was happening with technology and in this1110virtual space. And it is astounding to me that there are laws1111in the physical space that protect children. You cannot1112endanger a child. You can't sell them alcohol. You can't sell1113them tobacco. You cannot expose them to pornography. If you1114were a liquor store and you were selling to kids, they would1115padlock your store and take away your license.1116    But in the virtual space, our children are vulnerable 24/7,1117365. And I think during the COVID pandemic, many parents1118realized what was happening with the phone and their child.1119That is why you are seeing bell to bell, no phones in schools.1120That is why you are seeing other laws take place.1121    And Ms. Woods, as I said to you, I am just heartbroken for1122you. As a mother and a grandmother and having teenage1123grandsons, this is a fear, an absolute fear that parents have1124because the sextortion schemes and the targeting of young boys,1125it's like something that happens within a matter of hours and1126days.1127    And I appreciated your comment about your son being1128murdered. He was targeted, and then he was literally cyber1129bullied to death.1130    And this is why we need to pass the Kids Online Safety Act.1131This is why my REPORT Act--and Ms. Coffren, you mentioned1132that--was signed into law. And more needs to be done to protect1133children in the virtual space.1134    Ms. Woods, I want to come to you and just give you a minute1135to talk about why these platforms should be required to force1136safety by design and to put that burden on these social media1137platforms to root out these bad actors.1138    Ms. Woods. Yes, so there is a number of things that I would1139like to say with that. First of all, social media and different1140applications actually, I say, save face. So they say that they1141have parental controls, but did anyone know that on Google, if1142your child is 12 years old and once they turn 13, Google1143directly messages your child and tells them that they no longer1144need parental control and they can click here to opt out.1145That's what I mean by parental controls are not enough. You--we1146are put at a--and made to have a responsibility as parents to1147protect our children in every way, and yet there's other1148obstacles involved that intervene in us parenting our child in1149the most appropriate way.1150    The other thing too is that by social media actually making1151sure that we have laws in place like the social media act,1152parental act, is making sure that our--we can monitor our kids1153better, but when there is acronyms like--when my son said,1154``I'm going to kill myself,'' it would have alerted me. It1155would have alerted any parent that had lost their children's1156lives. And it would have told me something's wrong. I wish that1157even today, 3 years later, that I would have known half of the1158things that I would have had or even be put in a position where1159I could have taught my son to come to us in certain manners. He1160came to us for whatever, if there was a hole in his sack,1161whatever he needed. But yet our social media platforms took the1162time to not say anything.1163    Senator Blackburn. So what advice would you give to parents1164right now, sitting there today, parents of teens?1165    Ms. Woods. My advice that I would give to parents is to1166talk to your children about sextortion and any other child1167exploitation. I knew nothing about it. Every parent that lives1168here today that has a child has a privilege I did not have. It1169is free. Let's talk about it. Let's educate our children. And1170what I would say to children is be vulnerable one more time,1171one more time. Yes, you may not have made the best decision. We1172are all that way. We make mistakes. You matter enough through1173your mistakes. I don't care what it is. You speak up. You say1174something. You stand up for yourself because we can make sure1175that we have your back no matter what. I would give anything to1176have my son back. And if they have to learn, if they have to1177see James' face, if they have to see my tears, I'm going to1178make sure that it happens. If it means that I can save your1179grandchildren, I'm going to do it.1180    Senator Blackburn. Thank you.1181    Chairman Grassley. Senator Blackburn, thank you. Senator1182Whitehouse.1183    Senator Whitehouse. Thanks very much, Chairman. Thanks very1184much for doing this hearing. I think it is very useful. I want1185to welcome and thank all of the witnesses.1186    Ms. Woods, I am sorry that this has become so personal for1187you. There is really not much that is worse than what you have1188been through, and I really admire that you have come here to1189talk about it because it can't be easy, and I am grateful to1190you.1191    And Ms. Smolar, as a former United States attorney, I am1192always impressed by the assistant United States attorney who1193did the real work, and I am delighted that you are here.1194    And Ms. Coffren, thank you for your wonderful advocacy.1195    I want to pick up a little bit on where I understand1196Senator Graham was with respect to getting rid of Section 230.1197I strongly believe that Section 230 has long outlived its use,1198and it is now a real vessel for evil that needs to come to an1199end. The laws that Section 230 protects these big platforms1200from are very often laws that go back to the common law of1201England that we inherited when this country was initially1202founded. I mean, these are long-lasting, well-tested, important1203legal constraints that have met the test of time, not by the1204year or by the decade, but by the century. And yet because of1205this crazy Section 230, these ancient and highly respected1206doctrines just don't reach these people. And it really makes no1207sense that if your're an internet platform, you get treated one1208way. You do the exact same thing, and you are a publisher, you1209get treated a completely different way.1210    And so I think that the time has come. I think it is pretty1211widely known that there were a core four of us ready to proceed1212with a bipartisan bill, two and two. And a lot of work,1213important work, good work, valuable work, has gone into making1214sure that other Members of the Committee and other Members of1215the Senate have a chance to look at that and decide whether1216they want to join or not. And I am at the stage right now where1217I think we just need to go. We just need to file that bill and1218start moving, and everybody else can make up their decision1219whether they want to join or not. But continuing to delay while1220people deliberate whether to join or not, you know, everybody1221has had plenty of time. I think this is fish-or-cut-bait time.1222So I hope very much that we can proceed. I hope it is more than1223core four. I hope it is core 8 or core 10 or core 12 or perhaps1224even unanimous on the Committee.1225    But it really makes no sense. And stories like Ms. Woods1226and like the story of the Rhode Island family that was affected1227show how alone and stranded people are when they don't have the1228chance to even get justice. You know, it is bad enough to have1229to live through the tragedy. It is bad enough to have to bear1230for the rest of your life that loss. But to be told by a law of1231Congress you can't get justice because of the platform, not1232because the law is wrong, not because the rule is wrong, not1233because this is anything new, simply because the wrong type of1234entity created this harm.1235    And, you know, I look at what was done with the lawsuit by1236the Connecticut families whose children were killed in grade1237school and the accountability of a loudmouth for having whipped1238up the false theory that that whole thing was a fake, was1239staged, that they were props, that their children weren't1240actually killed, you know, you are never going to make that get1241better for those parents, but at least they know that the world1242listened. They at least know that they got the chance in an1243honest courtroom, and they at least know that they got a1244victory out of it. They got a win, and the person responsible1245for that really vile misconduct had to face an enormous,1246enormous civil judgment that he is still being pursued over.1247And that is not nothing.1248    So that is my statement, and let's hope that we can1249finally, finally get this 230 thing moving in this Committee.1250Thank you.1251    Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Now, Senator Hawley.1252    Senator Hawley. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Thank1253you to the witnesses for being here.1254    And Ms. Woods, I want to start with you. And I just want to1255say to you and to your husband, thank you for your courage and1256your advocacy. And thank you for sharing with us just a little1257piece of the life of your beautiful son. I am a father of three1258myself, two boys and a little girl, and my oldest boy is now a1259teenager. He just turned 13. And so as I look out at the1260landscape that he is coming into in social media, I am1261terrified by it.1262    But I just know, parent to parent, your son's life is1263changing the world. He is changing the world. And you giving1264him voice, as you and your husband are doing, that is the only1265thing that is going to make change here in Washington, DC, I1266can tell you, because who currently has a hammer hold on the1267U.S. Senate are the big technology companies who spend endless1268amounts of money to control the Senate. And let's just be1269honest, we may as well put a sign on the floor of the Senate1270that says ``property of Big Tech'' because nothing moves across1271that floor, in my observation, nothing that they don't want.1272They spend money to control and to buy access and influence.1273    And the only thing that will break that, I believe, is the1274truth of experiences like yours and the voice of your sons to1275confront lawmakers with the fact that unless we act and do1276something, unless we stand up to these corporate interests,1277more and more children like yours will lose their lives, will1278lose their futures, will lose their hope. So I just want to say1279thank you because you are the tip of the spear. I mean, you are1280what is making the change.1281    I noticed in your testimony, your written testimony--I was1282reading it just a second ago--I noticed you pointed out that,1283as to your boy, no system protected him, and no platform1284stopped it. And then you pointed out Meta, for example, has1285features that flag all inappropriate language that we use when1286making posts, and all that happens almost instantaneously. But1287as you said a moment ago, nobody flagged anything for you. None1288of those systems were deployed to help your son. And I think1289the reality of that is is that Meta didn't care about deploying1290systems to help your son because it didn't make them any money.1291If it makes them money, they are happy to do it.1292    Ms. Woods. Right.1293    Senator Hawley. But it didn't make any money for them to1294help your son, and so they just stood by.1295    And I just want to point out something that Meta is doing1296right now. Let's take a look at the Meta chatbot policy. Not1297only is Meta not protecting kids like your boy, Meta actually1298is looking to make money by targeting children who are your1299son's age and younger. This is a document that was leaked by a1300Meta whistleblower that is their policies when it comes to1301chatbots with children. And if you look here, the first line,1302it says, ``It is acceptable''--this is Meta's own words. ``It1303is acceptable to engage a child in conversations that are1304romantic or sensual.'' So here Meta is with a deliberate policy1305to target children, teenagers your boy's age and younger, for1306the purposes of exploiting them. Why? So they can make money.1307    [Poster is displayed.]1308    What are the consequences of that? Well, let's look at1309another young man who is just a few years younger than your1310boy. Sewell Setzer was his name. Sewell was 14. He is a1311handsome kid. This was a great kid. I have gotten to know his1312parents. And much like your son, Ms. Woods, I mean, this is1313just a fantastic kid. He also was the victim of sextortion. The1314difference with your son was is that his sextortion was pursued1315by a chatbot. It wasn't even human. You know, your son's1316killers are beyond the reach. They are in a different country.1317They are hiding behind all of the various laws and treaties1318and, of course, the platforms themselves.1319    This young man's killer, an AI chatbot, can't be held1320accountable because they have got special protections that no1321other corporation in the country or in the world gets. The1322chatbot that engaged with young Sewell engaged him in sexting1323activities and then urged him to commit suicide, told him how1324to commit suicide, and tragically, he did it.1325    And his parents, much like you now, are giving voice to1326him, to his legacy. But the true justice that will come for1327boys like Sewell, for young men like Sewell, for young men like1328your son, James, and for other young Americans out there is we1329have to be able to hold these technology companies accountable.1330And that is why I have introduced legislation that will prevent1331the AI companies from targeting minors with chatbots.1332    [Poster is displayed.]1333    It is time for this Committee to mark up this bill. Senator1334Britt is a cosponsor. Senator Blumenthal is a cosponsor.1335Senator Murphy is a cosponsor. My point is it is bipartisan.1336This Committee needs to mark that bill up, and we need to1337protect our kids from the profiteering of these corporations.1338    And we need to do something else. This Committee passed1339unanimously, unanimously legislation that would allow the1340parents of victims of child sex abuse material, allow them to1341sue companies that put that child sex abuse material online,1342that host it, knowingly or recklessly. We passed it1343unanimously. It is languishing on the Senate floor, unanimously1344out of the Judiciary Committee months ago, and it is sitting on1345the floor of the Senate. Why? Because Big Tech fears it. They1346don't want it to move.1347    I call now today on Senate leadership, which is controlled1348by my party, I call on them to put that bill on the floor.1349Listen to the testimony of Ms. Woods. Heed, heed the witness of1350her son. Heed the witness of Sewell Setzer. Listen to the young1351Americans whose lives have been lost and destroyed by1352predators. Put this bill on the floor. There is no excuse for1353further delay. No amount of money from Big Tech can ever1354sanction or make right our inability to act, our failure to do1355so.1356    This Committee has acted. It is time for the Senate to act.1357And it would be a travesty, inexcusable for this Congress to1358close out this year without taking action to protect our1359children.1360    Thank you again all for being here. Thank you, Ms. Woods,1361especially for you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1362    Chairman Grassley. Senator Klobuchar.1363    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.1364    I think that sentiment that Senator Hawley expressed that1365many of us feel about the bills that have come through the1366Committee and the work that we have done. We know that one bill1367that did pass that you noted, Ms. Coffren--thank you--was the1368TAKE IT DOWN Act that I authored with Senator Cruz, signed into1369law by President Trump. And as you know, that criminalizes the1370distribution of and threats to distribute nonconsensual1371intimate images, whether they are AI created or real.1372    And I would also add, to echo some of my colleagues,1373particularly Senator Graham, that it is long past time to1374repeal Section 230. At the beginning of his efforts on that1375front, I had thought, well, no, maybe we can put in these rules1376in place and the tech companies will work with us, and that1377just hasn't happened. The opposite has happened. And as we1378approach this 30-year anniversary, maybe it is time to do a1379major assessment, which takes for any parent about 1 minute to1380realize the harm that has been caused by all of this.1381    I would start with you, Ms. Woods. Thank you for your1382moving testimony. Can you talk about why even the threat of1383nonconsensual distribution of explicit images can be tragic,1384and why it is so vital that the law covers threats, as the TAKE1385IT DOWN Act does, as well as the reality?1386    Ms. Woods. So it's a number of things. First of all, our1387children aren't just handing out the nudes. They are being1388coerced into providing them with--in regards to creating safe1389spaces and different things of that sort. Once the threat1390behind the nude comes, it's not just the nude being in1391existence. It's all of the threats behind it to where they're1392questioning what they're actually doing, and they're becoming1393desperate and willing to do whatever they can to get rid of1394that image. It is embarrassing to them.1395    They--we tell kids all the time, if you put it on the1396internet, it won't go away. You--my son, in particular, was1397threatened. He was actually slated to be No. 1 in the State of1398Ohio in 110 hurdles, and they told him he would never run track1399again. They told him he would be labeled a pedophile because he1400was under 18, and they did have a nude photo of him. It becomes1401far more than the embarrassment of the actual picture but the1402actual torture that comes after the picture.1403    And so by them being able to have TAKE IT DOWN as an1404option, it takes a weight off of them, and they are able to1405address all the other issues that come after it. But once we1406take that photo away, then we can battle everything else, and I1407think that helps them with that.1408    Senator Klobuchar. Thank you. Thank you. As you know, Ms.1409Coffren, the TAKE IT DOWN Act gives victims not only their1410rights with regard to the people doing this, but the rights to1411demand that the social media platforms take these images down.1412I just wrote a piece today in The New York Times about AI and1413just how important it is to allow the States to keep doing1414their work while we are waiting on the leadership to bring up1415these bills for a vote.1416    And I just believe that if you are not going to do anything1417federally, you better do something in the States, but also that1418you have got to hold these platforms liable. And could you talk1419about that?1420    Ms. Coffren. Sure. The biggest threat that children face is1421not necessarily a criminal justice proceeding or the fear of1422what is going to be happening next. They just want their images1423down. So the threats that these bad actors are using against1424them is actually a recirculation of the same diatribes that1425we've been telling children for years in a prevention-type1426method. Don't do this action, or once it's out there, it's1427always out there, and you'll never get it back. That has to1428change.1429    The TAKE IT DOWN Act changes that significantly by1430requiring that company to, within 48 hours, to be able to be1431removing that. Children need to know that they have that right1432for that content to come down so that the threat to1433recirculate, there's power taken away from that, and the child1434gets that power back. So that act is really revolutionary1435because historically what we've seen is companies taking, you1436know, a week, 2 weeks, sometimes not remove this at all.1437    And the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children1438publishes our data about the companies that we send notices1439for, those companies that take it down, how long it takes them1440to take it down, and which companies choose not to. All that1441information is public, and we're trying to make sure that1442people can find that and are aware.1443    Senator Klobuchar. That will be very, very helpful for all1444of us.1445    Ms. Smolar, last short question here, a little related, but1446different topic. Senator Blackburn and I introduced the1447National Human Trafficking Data base Act to establish a1448National Human Trafficking Data base at the DOJ's Office for1449Victims of Crime to incentivize States to report data, a little1450bit along the lines of what we are hearing from Ms. Coffer on1451the TAKE IT DOWN bill. Can you talk about the data sharing in1452this area and how it can empower law enforcement to protect1453victims of human trafficking?1454    Ms. Smolar. Yes, thank you, Senator. Human traffickers move1455victims across State lines all the time. That's how they make1456money. That is how they get more victims, by crossing State1457lines. So having nationwide data for law enforcement is1458invaluable to be able to talk to their colleagues in different1459States to get information on different traffickers, on victims.1460We try to rescue victims all the time. So without that data,1461you can't do that.1462    Chairman Grassley. Senator Moody.1463    Senator Moody. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this1464hearing. I really appreciate it.1465    Ms. Woods, Ms. Smolar, Ms. Coffer, I cannot thank you1466enough for being here today. My name is Ashley Moody. I became1467the first mom of a school kid ever on Florida's cabinet when I1468became the attorney general. My kid was still in school, and I1469debated how that was going to be a challenge. But ultimately,1470that challenge of balancing that and making that work became my1471biggest driver.1472    And I am listening to you guys talk this morning and I am1473so grateful we have people like you willing to speak up and1474stay focused on this and not let up because I am telling you,1475the focus of large corporations on profit, that never lets up,1476and that is a fight all in and of itself. In fact, if you are a1477representative of a large tech platform or any of the1478associations or represent them in government affairs, could you1479please stand up?1480    I just would like the Chairman to note, not one person is1481here for this testimony to listen to a mother who lost her only1482child. Thank you for showing up.1483    Let me tell you when they do show up. In 2004 because1484Congress has done nothing. Oh, and you know what we did get1485passed this last year? It was because of a mom showed up in1486Congress and said, you have to get this done. Melania Trump1487said, show up, we have to pass this, the TAKE IT DOWN Act. We1488have got to pass it. And it did because a mom showed up and1489didn't let up.1490    You have heard from multiple people say, Congress is doing1491nothing, that Congress is under the thumb of Big Tech because1492of financial influence. Lindsey Graham said, ``How is this1493happening? Maybe we do something next year.'' In fact, he said,1494``Nothing really happens.''1495    So because Congress hasn't done anything, what have we had1496to do in the States? When I was the only mom on the Florida1497cabinet of a school-aged kid, we passed legislation in Florida.1498We were one of the very first States to protect kids online in14992024. We protected young kids. We got it done. We were one of1500the first States. Now other States have had to follow suit1501because what happens in Congress? Nothing really happens. And1502we did it.1503    But you know where these Big Tech companies show up? Their1504lawyers, their lobbyists, their government representatives, you1505know where they do show up? In court to fight us when we get1506something done. So when we passed it in Florida, and I showed1507up in court when they sued us to overturn the law and spent all1508of that money to sue when the State actually did something to1509stand up for their kids, we fought it. And I am proud to tell1510you--they showed up there to fight us. I am proud to tell you1511fighting hard, staying focused, staying persistent, showing up,1512we just got to win. We just got to win in court.1513    In fact, I am proud to tell you that that piece of1514legislation got upheld in the 11th Circuit, and I think we are1515going to win it. It just goes to show you, you can do1516something. We looked at all those other States that had tried1517something that got blocked, and we took that into account when1518we passed our law, and now we are winning in court, and we are1519winning against those companies.1520    And I am telling you what, I am watching you. You have1521blended everything from being a mother--I was a former Federal1522prosecutor. I have worked on human trafficking, constantly led1523the human trafficking group within our statewide Human1524Trafficking Council. I won't give up. And we are making1525progress in this fight. And now I just got appointed United1526States Senator, and we are going to do that here. I would like1527them to show up so I could fight them in person right here in1528this hearing because that is what has got to happen. If we are1529going to move anything, as Lindsey Graham says, if we are going1530to have anything really happen, we have got to have people1531speaking out.1532    Thank you, ma'am, for making it known that this is1533happening under our noses. Stranger danger doesn't work1534anymore. Don't get into the van doesn't work anymore. It is1535happening in our kids' bedrooms, and we need to be vocal about1536it and say, if they are not your friend in real life, they1537can't be your friend online. Let's get that message out, and I1538appreciate you speaking out. And I hope other kids will not be1539embarrassed enough to share this with their friends, and we are1540going to work on that. Please come to my office so we can come1541up with a plan.1542    I will say as a former Federal prosecutor, having a1543specific crime, outlawing and providing penalties for1544sextortion as a prosecutor, I know that would have been1545helpful. I appreciate you, Ms. Smolar. Have you seen a specific1546piece of legislation yet presented on outlining the elements of1547sextortion federally and what criminal penalty would be tied to1548that?1549    Ms. Smolar. Other than proposed legislation----1550    Senator Moody. Have you seen it filed, a piece of proposed1551legislation?1552    Ms. Smolar. Not yet.1553    Senator Moody. So we need to get that done.1554    As a former Federal prosecutor, one to another, I will1555pledge to you we will make that happen. We also need to see1556that in the States. Do you think that would be helpful in the1557States?1558    Ms. Smolar. Absolutely.1559    Senator Moody. To see a specific sextortion crime defined1560with penalties attached in the States.1561    Ms. Smolar. We work with States all the time on these1562cases----1563    Senator Moody. As a former Florida attorney general, I1564created a cyber unit that worked specifically on these crimes1565that was incredibly helpful. They could go out, immediately1566recover evidence, begin work on investigations. Do you think1567having those specialty units in each State working with Federal1568partners would be helpful?1569    Ms. Smolar. Absolutely. We do that all the time on these1570type of cases. In addition, a lot of the defendants, some--the1571perpetrators of some of these crimes are juveniles. And the1572States can prosecute juveniles and place juveniles. The Federal1573Government, it's much harder to do that.1574    Senator Moody. Well, I have run out of time, but let me1575just again say thank you for not losing focus. Thank you for1576not losing passion on behalf of the kids of this Nation. They1577are going to be the ones that carry this message to their1578peers, and we need to continue pushing this message until it1579seeps into their vocabulary and this is commonplace for them to1580talk through these things.1581    Thank you so much.1582    Chairman Grassley. Senator Blumenthal.1583    Senator Blumenthal. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you to1584all of you for being here today. And I know about the work that1585you have done and deeply respect your advocacy and your1586steadfastness on behalf of this cause, and also my colleagues1587for their passion and eloquence.1588    But it is really pretty simple so far as Federal1589legislation is concerned. What we need is votes. You know, we1590need votes. We voted on the Kids Online Safety1591    Act in the U.S. Senate and passed it by a margin of 91 to 31592in the last session. And I would invite my colleagues to speak1593as passionately to the House leadership, which failed last1594session to give the Kids Online Safety Act a vote, not a vote.1595And this session, we have more than 60 cosponsors again in the1596U.S. Senate for the Kids Online Safety Act, and we undoubtedly1597will for other measures as well. But Big Tech is exercising its1598sway using its armies of lawyers and lobbyists.1599    You have spoken powerfully today. My colleagues are on the1600right side of this issue. No one is in favor of child1601exploitation. But the fact is, Ms. Woods, as you wrote in your1602remarks about abuse and exploitation of your son, ``No system1603protected him, no platform stopped it.'' And I have met1604countless parents who feel the same way. The common factor in1605all their stories is the one gatekeeper that makes this abuse1606possible is, in fact, Big Tech. It is Meta and others who are1607allowing predators from around the world to use their platforms1608and make our kids prey to exploiters who are sometimes beyond1609our borders.1610    So I guess I would invite you, Ms. Woods, and perhaps1611others, to talk directly to Speaker Johnson in the House of1612Representatives and tell him what you think he should do.1613    Ms. Woods. You have my commitment on that.1614    Senator Blumenthal. And perhaps others of you, witnesses,1615maybe you can tell me what impact or influence you can have in1616the House of Representatives. Have you been asked to testify at1617a hearing there?1618    Ms. Smolar. I have not.1619    Ms. Coffren. Certainly, we would love to work together to1620be able to get legislation passed. We see so many bills coming1621forward. We've seen the success of bills like the REPORT Act,1622like the TAKE IT DOWN Act, when they're nuanced, when they are1623focused, and when they can be introduced and passed very1624quickly, we have been able to see huge success in that. The1625REPORT Act is a great example. We saw increases in the amount1626and types of both child sex trafficking and online enticement1627that came. When we see those acts passed, we see progress, we1628see movement because we're holding companies accountable. If we1629don't, the rest of that reporting is voluntary. Those two1630reporting requirements were permitted to be received prior to1631them, and we certainly know that the prevalence didn't1632increase, just the responsibility to report.1633    Senator Blumenthal. And I just want to close by saying, you1634know, we want a bill, we want a law. We don't just want1635speeches, but we want a bill that is effective. And right now,1636the House has weakened the Kids Online Safety Act bill, in1637effect decimating the duty of care, which prevents the kinds of1638abuses and holds the platforms accountable. It imposes a legal1639responsibility on Big Tech when it knows or should know about1640exactly the harms that you have come here to highlight.1641Decimating that duty of care is a disservice to all the parents1642and all the children who have become victims. And when you talk1643to Members of the House, I would urge you to insist on real1644protection for kids.1645    Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1646    Chairman Grassley. Thank you. Senator Britt.1647    Senator Britt. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.1648    I really appreciate you all being here today.1649    Mrs. Woods, thank you for continuing to tell your story.1650Thank you for continuing to honor James, to make sure that we1651all learn as parents. I have said this quite frequently, as1652parents, we are all just doing the best we can. And I am1653grateful to my colleagues on both sides of the aisle who have1654come together, you know, not as Democrats or Republicans, but1655as concerned parents and grandparents, knowing that what we are1656facing right now is just beyond comprehension.1657    As a mom, you know, you work so diligently to keep your1658children safe. And used to, you would get them home at night,1659and you would lock the doors and you would be able to kind of1660exhale. And now the enemy is inside our home. The people who1661want to do our children harm are in the palm of their hand. And1662if we can't do this as Congress, I mean, what are we here for?1663We are here to protect the most vulnerable. We are here to1664protect our greatest asset. And to me, that is the next1665generation. And so thank you for continuing to raise your voice1666and ensure that you push this body to do what it needs to.1667    I would love to know from your perspective, you know, Mrs.1668Woods, in particular, in your written testimony, you said large1669corporations continue to argue for rights while refusing to1670actually take responsibility. I think that sums it up. Tell me1671what you want us to know as we continue to push these various1672pieces of legislation to the floor. I am a proud cosponsor of1673probably every single one of them. And to your point, we are1674looking for, you know, how do we get something through? You1675know, I think we heard Ms. Coffren say, the faster we get it1676done, the more narrowly tailored it is, the greater chance for1677success.1678    But we know we need sweeping and overarching reform because1679Big Tech is always going to care about one thing, and that is1680their profits. And we know they know what they are doing. I1681mean, I think it was just said in Reuters that Big Tech has1682said--Meta said about $16 billion of their actual profits are1683really directly related to scams and to ads on banned goods. It1684is insane.1685    So tell me from your perspective what you think we need to1686do. What are the simple fixes that would ultimately have been1687able to save your son's life?1688    Ms. Woods. Well, one, I definitely think education and for1689us to pass the education law. I'm really, really big on1690education. That's----1691    Senator Britt. Ms. Woods, I love that you said that because1692every school group that I get a chance to talk to, I say, hold1693on, here is my mom moment, and then we go directly into the1694things that you are talking about, so education, one.1695    Ms. Woods. Education is No. 1 because the crime will never1696go away. Even if we set laws, we still have to educate our1697kids, our community to make sure that we know when this1698happens, we can fight against it.1699    But two, I guess I'm coming from a mom in a naive stance. I1700don't understand why it's so hard to pass laws.1701    Senator Britt. Amen.1702    Ms. Woods. Why--the money will always be there. I mean, we1703have people wasting money every day on all kinds of things. Why1704can we not take our children off of the marketing factor, the1705prey? I just don't understand how hard that is to take--to1706protect our children. We won't have a world without them.1707    Senator Britt. That is right. And thank you for what you1708are doing and pursuing the litigation and saying, no, we need1709age verification. We need these guardrails to protect our kids.1710And the fact that they continue to prey, and that is exactly1711what social media companies are doing, are preying on our1712children because they know having our kids on their platform is1713how they make more money. And they are unwilling to do the1714right thing and help us ensure that these kids are protected.1715And it is moms like you, it is people like you, that are1716stepping up and saying, we must do more, that will ultimately1717force people in this body, force people in the House to1718actually do the right thing, so thank you.1719    Ms. Woods. Yes. You're very welcome.1720    Senator Britt. It should be simple. And this is common1721sense.1722    Ms. Woods. Yes.1723    Senator Britt. I would love in my remaining minute here--I1724would love, Mrs. Coffren, for you to tell me--I know NCMEC1725works closely with many of the social media companies to1726address this issue, but you also face challenges. And what are1727some of the biggest challenges facing NCMEC both from1728technology and actually, you know, the criminality continuing1729to evolve?1730    Ms. Coffren. Thank you. Thank you so much for that1731question. Both quality and volume are our biggest challenges.1732It is not enough for a company to make massive reports that are1733not of good quality that law enforcement can investigate, nor1734is it appropriate for companies to look the other way and say,1735if I don't have actual knowledge of what's going on, I'll make1736no reports.1737    We need to be--have diligent, robust reporting, especially1738seen in the legislation for the STOP CSAM Act. That would1739require companies to provide detailed reporting that would make1740these reports far more actionable. Right now, a company is only1741required to report two fields, the date and time, as well as1742what type of thing they're reporting. But if they don't provide1743the valuable information to get that report to the appropriate1744law enforcement so they can investigate, the report is1745effectively worthless.1746    Senator Britt. Thank you. And Mr. Chairman, if you will1747allow me, Ms. Smolar, do you have anything to add to that,1748anything you would like to make sure that we know or that you1749see in law?1750    Ms. Smolar. We could use these statutes. We could use the1751additional tools to prosecute these crimes. Our law enforcement1752agencies could use the resources to have agents being able to1753spend the time.1754    With regard to sextortion, for example, you now have two1755different types of offenders. You have the traditional offender1756seeking sexual content, but now you have financial scammers who1757used to go after the elderly or romance scams. Now, they're1758targeting our children, and that is a lot for our law1759enforcement agents to be able to put their arms around and to1760be able to handle.1761    Senator Britt. Well, I commit to you to working on this,1762and let's get something done.1763    Chairman Grassley. I thank all of you for your testimony1764today. Your work for today is done, but I am going to announce1765that usually Members submit questions for answer in writing.1766Our Members on this Committee have until December 16 at 5 p.m.1767to submit questions for answer in writing. And I would ask each1768of you to answer and return the questions to the Committees as1769soon as possible.1770    Thank you very much. Meeting adjourned.1771    [Whereupon, at 12 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]1772    [Additional material submitted for the record follows.]17731774[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]17751776                            A P P E N D I X17771778The following submissions are available at:17791780  https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CHRG-119shrg62972/pdf/CHRG-1781    119shrg1782    62972-add1.pdf17831784Submitted by Chairman Grassley:17851786 Grueser, Dana, letter............................................     217871788 Montgomery, Brian and Courtney, letter...........................     717891790 Tricia, Levi's Mother, letter....................................     417911792 Zimmer, Amanda, letter...........................................     917931794                                 [all]